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 Post subject: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:18 pm
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Sup boys and girls (if any).

Warning!! Usless story just to showy why I made this thread. Skip to the numbers 1 and 2 if dont want to read it whole.
Recently i ran onto a wall with facets. Everyone at foru scream balance balance balance, and everyone involved with patch forgot to firstly fix basics of game than going into balance.
After long long long long discusion with Baerk i found out that there is some serious problem with facets as they are now, i felt this a bit at my frost bite, but just got stunned when made my rabies druid.
First of all I' not arguing at power of facets, but a siple thing, meaning ctc on them.
First and main question WTF was behind the ide of adding ctc on facets (i know it was there for long time), and till i went mele with facets i didnt have problem with that ctc. But this ladder i was like I want to play fighter char. So i made frostbite, on some boses like Juger at hell i run onto an incredible problem, realized that my frostbite makes him counter, my hurricane same time makes him counter too, damn it is hard to survive, but then i realized that fucking ctc on attack gives me 3rd counter (from just one hit onto the boss), and this getting ridiculus, and adding that one of this counter makes ctc on struck works and makes another counter. This in bad situation can give 2 moulten boulders and 2 volcanos at me at the very same time. Sux dont it?? But i never thought it shouldnt work like that.
But then i made rabies druid. Rushed it till very 95 lvl. Equiped it with HHG (2 perf facets spray), perf temps (4 perf facets spray), lore (3 perf facets spray), and as anyone wise can do math i have literaly 90% ctc on attack to cast disease spray. Nothing new every psn can have that. But then i went onto juger at hell. Hutted it and saw like 8 moulten boulder and 8 volcanos under my feets (i hited him once, not 20 times, but once). Got damn pissed coss of it, checked every boss and situation was same. Curiously made post no one answered, than decided to msg Baerk, and he told me it is facets disease spray problem, it is causing that counters overhaul. Than i relized WTF, it means i cant play rabies at is suppouse to be, cant use disease spray facets cos they give massive counters, cant use psn nova facets cos they destroy rabies effects. Just relized i made broken char. To make things worse, every time disease spray is casted and land on enemy it cause weapon to loose durability, meanining 2 packs of monsters at wsk and 100 dura weapon is broken.
So now wise balance arguing mens could tell me where the fucking hell is ur damn god forsaken balance??

To make this post constructive i have 2 suggestion how changes could look like:
1). Add 3rd type of facet with no ctc (what make the ones with ctc usless and worthless for certain builds)
2). Remove damn ctc from all facet, no one using it, everyone complain, and it many times gives lower mashines chocke when start to spam at tundra, and also reduce number of facets to 1 per element

There might be 3rd option that require balance, i probably have no idea of, adding to facets ctc of something usefull what will not impact chars like rabies, and might help just a little, example 1% lvl 10 fa, or something similar.

P.S. Big congrats and thanks to anyone who read whole post. ;]
P.S. 2 Sorry for my terribad English.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Please dont remove the CTC from facets completely. I'm making use of them.

Just replace the stupid ones like pois spray (its like using charged strike on a pois char...). Replace it with plague jav or something.

Regarding durability loss:
Someone blew smoke up your ass with that one. Theres no way for a missile to reduce the durability of a weapon. Only the melee strike can do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:55 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Regarding durability loss:
Someone blew smoke up your ass with that one. Theres no way for a missile to reduce the durability of a weapon. Only the melee strike can do that.

This is only my thought process. Cos there is no way to think otherwise. Using angelic set, i could kill hundrets of monsters before making it 0 durability (actualy never made it 0 dura ...), but when i'm in spray filled equipment, after literaly 2 packs of strong monsters in wsk(minions and champions for example) i loose 100 durability. I loose like 2-3 everytime i hit enemy with rabies, but this happen only when equipment with ctc spray is equipped.


Also dod what is ur use of ctc?? just curious. Only one i found usefull is phy ctc's :D

And about changing ctc's to somthing else i suggest to change it to something that dont give retarded counters from bosses when got struck or when attack.

But this problem needs to be addressed asap. Thats damn dissapointing to make 95 char and find out it is usless ...
Same as maxing amp on my summon necro ... Now i'm only summoner with maxed amp/lr ...


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Well i'm working on a melee sorc that uses ctc lvl 40 lightning on attack. Maxing CB, CL, TK, Light mast, Warmth, 1 in ES and the rest in FA. High chance of triggering level 40 lightning at 5fpa (waaaay better than the terrible lightning cast speed).

Anything that makes a single missile should be fine as CTC i'd say though. Also, the pois spray could just be changed to not trigger a counter on impact (its just a 1 in a column in missiles.txt)

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:01 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Well i'm working on a melee sorc that uses ctc lvl 40 lightning on attack. Maxing CB, CL, TK, Light mast, Warmth, 1 in ES and the rest in FA. High chance of triggering level 40 lightning at 5fpa (waaaay better than the terrible lightning cast speed).

Anything that makes a single missile should be fine as CTC i'd say though. Also, the pois spray could just be changed to not trigger a counter on impact (its just a 1 in a column in missiles.txt)

Hmmm agreed on ur sorc. Dont remove the ctc from facets ^^ Love this idea u gave me :D I already know what will be my next retarded charn, not fully sure if it will be light tho :D

Back to topic, is it possible to implement only serverside fixt for spray to not cause counters, and it will work with non updated clients. If so we could implement that immidietly Duff will be here, and it would basicly fix whole problem with rabies druid. Rabies using disease spray facets can easl play at tundra without making massive lags due to spaming psn nova, and cant play against bosses not tiggering massive counters.

Also u have any idea whats wrong with this weapon?? I can msg you my acc pass to test it urself and see how fast dura is dropping compared to non facet filled gear. Or u might take effort and check that in single player. It is damn important ... I dont want to zod weapon unnececerly...


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:35 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Well i'm working on a melee sorc that uses ctc lvl 40 lightning on attack. Maxing CB, CL, TK, Light mast, Warmth, 1 in ES and the rest in FA. High chance of triggering level 40 lightning at 5fpa (waaaay better than the terrible lightning cast speed).


that sounds cool as hell :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:35 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
(waaaay better than the terrible lightning cast speed).

why ain't this changed anyway?
what about giving Lightning/CL normal castspeeds with next patch?

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:39 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:18 pm
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Damn i suggested together with PureRage quick fix on facet that no one reacted to, but somehow we went to changing sorc skills :P Fix damn facets for me :D


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:55 am 
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well, fixing psn facets ctc causing counters is a small thing that would only require a serverside fix and not a full patch

(could maybe be done together with the change to vengance that was suggested in another thread)

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:19 pm 

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ki4m wrote:
well, fixing psn facets ctc causing counters is a small thing that would only require a serverside fix and not a full patch

(could maybe be done together with the change to vengance that was suggested in another thread)

would be nice thing, and we need to decide on if to do that fix or not, if so make files and ask duff to implement that. My rabies is hurting ...
Also if vengance change would come in onto realm i would definetly play that lol :D


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:35 pm 
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ya you should vengeance on sp i posted the files http://www.4shared.com/zip/yTo4sug1/datatest.html it malke an aggravating build become enjoyable. imo need to make the missiles not be affected by slow didnt check if kev set it up that way but it would surely lag the hell outta the game

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:11 pm 

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dew wrote:
ya you should vengeance on sp i posted the files http://www.4shared.com/zip/yTo4sug1/datatest.html it malke an aggravating build become enjoyable. imo need to make the missiles not be affected by slow didnt check if kev set it up that way but it would surely lag the hell outta the game

Post me a sp vengance paly :P Making one for sp will be damn time consuming, and as i understand u actualy haveone already.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:31 pm 
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eh i deleted it but i'll get one posted based on my realm venger I'll just give him all the needed stats and damage to match

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Better idea would be to add low level facets with low power for proc builds.

Example:
+ 1-2%/ - 1-2% "XX" dmg, ctc lvl30 "XXX" lvl50 facet
+ 1/ - 1 "XX" dmg, ctc lvl20 "XXX" lvl30 facet

and so, droping at a low rate.

Just an idea, proc'ers are nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:45 pm 

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Wolfs wrote:
Better idea would be to add low level facets with low power for proc builds.

Example:
+ 1-2%/ - 1-2% "XX" dmg, ctc lvl30 "XXX" lvl50 facet
+ 1/ - 1 "XX" dmg, ctc lvl20 "XXX" lvl30 facet

and so, droping at a low rate.

Just an idea, proc'ers are nice.

Dont like this idea, cos it will cause to get 100 1/1 facets and 3 3/6 facets ... Facets are good as they are.


But back to topic, the change that would actualy allow me to finaly play my rabies went dead?? No one willing to force it?? Actualy could anyone make and compile this edit, so it can be send to duff so it could be implement asap, and since duff looks here once a week or two asap means at least week ...


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:30 am 
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Prescot, so you actually get 100 wirts legacy and 3 3/6 facets??... because drops can get configurated you know.

And i honestly dont see how facets with no procs "allow me to finaly play my rabies went dead", i just dont see the problems on them.
But for me something is takeable from ur main idea. doing something for the facets allowing more playable stuff. Just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:32 am 

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Wolfs wrote:
Prescot, so you actually get 100 wirts legacy and 3 3/6 facets??... because drops can get configurated you know.

And i honestly dont see how facets with no procs "allow me to finaly play my rabies went dead", i just dont see the problems on them.
But for me something is takeable from ur main idea. doing something for the facets allowing more playable stuff. Just my 2 cents.


Wolfs u know that before u replay to thread u should read all post in it??
As we asid further we decided whe will not touch ctc at faccets, fix i'm talking abot is deleting "1" in one colum/row in missles.txt if i good remember what PureRage said. Other worlds my and not only my fix for facets is to just remove from disease spray "counter mod", so it will not cause counters.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:18 am 

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No word on when (if) this fix would happen? Sound like such a simple change.

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:02 am 

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Anyone else feel facets could use a little buff? It sucks to have such a big chance of getting a worthless facet. -3% pierce minimum is brutal. gogo -5 to -6 pierce and 3-4% mastery. To be honest I could live without the extra mastery but just increasing the variable on them is what they really need.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:52 am 

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kwikster wrote:
No word on when (if) this fix would happen? Sound like such a simple change.

No one is willing to compile this change so it could be implemented. If someone gave edited file i could pm duff so he implement this.


drrod wrote:
Anyone else feel facets could use a little buff? It sucks to have such a big chance of getting a worthless facet. -3% pierce minimum is brutal. gogo -5 to -6 pierce and 3-4% mastery. To be honest I could live without the extra mastery but just increasing the variable on them is what they really need.


I dont feel like they need buff, as they are now they are good currency for new players. Especialy fi they get perf facets.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:09 am 

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Fair enough. It sucks to be red sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:43 am 
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drrod wrote:
Anyone else feel facets could use a little buff? It sucks to have such a big chance of getting a worthless facet. -3% pierce minimum is brutal. gogo -5 to -6 pierce and 3-4% mastery. To be honest I could live without the extra mastery but just increasing the variable on them is what they really need.


I'd be good with this if leo didn't drop them like candy. Getting a low roll is a pain in the ass (waste of a drop), but at least it makes it slightly hard to perfect your gear.

Or, buff hell leo and move him to a new map inside the cathederal :)

@Edits:
You just want that 1 proc to not trigger counters?

Open missiles.txt in notepad and ctrl + f for poisonspraybolt, then ctrl + c the text below and paste it over that line.
I'd have provided the edited missiles.txt but mine is heavily edited with clientsides and don't want them somehow getting stuck in to a future patch.
Code:
poisonspraybolt   727   1   10   1                                                                                                                                                   12   12         90      3   4   255   255   255   1   3   1   AndarielSpell   1024   24   16               3   1      1      1                     1                           1      1      1         1      1         Power Strike   4      8                                                                                                               16         andariel_cast_small                                                         0

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:36 am 

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Still for it not to give counters dont it have to be serverside?? If so it needs to be compiled into server mpq, which i have no idea off how to do, thats why i'm begging you or baerk to just compile this into serverside mpq, so duff just upadte hiss server and we could use this quick fix. And yeas i wanted just poison spray not to give counters.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:29 am 
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I dont have the server side patch.
I don't have time to download it and unpack it and make that change and repack it and upload it. Especially when i don't even know if it'll be used.
Try to get a thumbs up from duff and gime a link to the server side patch and i'll see if i can do it when i finish work.

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Another simple fix with these you can make a new type for each element that don't cause procs ... that way everyone is happy instead of taking the psn proc of that facet.. Personally I like those procs if you know how to use them.. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:55 pm 
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It's not about the proc...
the proc is causing massive counters, that annoy prescot alot, and it can simply be removed if we get hands on the serverside patch...

so not removing the proc but only making the psn proc cause no counters..

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:29 am 
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its not removed, just the missiles on pois spray don't trigger counters any more. The current version is like charged strike, except the missiles also pierce through enemies, so you get 8-10 counters every frame for 4-5 frames per hit...
The skill should cause a single counter (on the initial strike) not trigger 40-50 counters. Its a terrible proc to have going around.

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Well I'd be up to editing the server patch so the spray's subbolts no longer cause counters. Question is would duff be up to applying it? Given that no one has really opposed the 3rd facet of each element with no proc idea should I go ahead and add it to that preliminary change log I already got going?


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:31 pm 
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I wouldn't do a third facet type with no proc. It's hard enough finding lots of the proc you want as it is without a third lot making it even harder.
Are there any other procs that are triggering mass counters?

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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:15 pm 

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Baerk wrote:
Well I'd be up to editing the server patch so the spray's subbolts no longer cause counters. Question is would duff be up to applying it? Given that no one has really opposed the 3rd facet of each element with no proc idea should I go ahead and add it to that preliminary change log I already got going?


I'm a bit pissed ... I would asked PureRage to do the edit a long time ago, but Duff managed to ignore 2 of my PM-s, he just read them and didnt respond. Baerk since ur in the charge of making changes to this mod mayby u will pm him so we could implement this right away, cos as it is now my rabies sux moose baals, and also not only mine i already run onto 3 rabies druid with same problem ...

PureRage-DoD wrote:
I wouldn't do a third facet type with no proc. It's hard enough finding lots of the proc you want as it is without a third lot making it even harder.
Are there any other procs that are triggering mass counters?


Not sure if i found any other proc giving mass counters, I guess stun sometimes can be mess but let it be that way. Onply psn facets are screwd up. I dont understan idea behind facets that mainly reduce dmg than increase it, sinc psn nova and spray overwrite the other psn dmg (psn dagger, plague jav, rabies), that is a bit ridiculus dont u think?? I could agree on giving it lvl 40 venom on strike or something that does not impack psn play that much.



Right now even when my friends psn java uses jab at norm to kill or help killing counter giving monster/subboss/boss which is psn immune, he tiggers so much counters he kills everyone in the screen including the attacker. Even at norm .... I dont like how psn facets works at all. Every other facet got helping skill only psn facets got dmg interrupt skill ...


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Actually a venom on striking deal would actually boost the DPS of skills like poison dagger and plague javelin (venom has a strange damage boosting interaction with these skills). For this reason I'd be hesitant to actually implement it since it's not like poison actually needs boosted.

Poison is the only element however that only allows one source of its element going at a time. Due to this quirky overwriting mechanic, however, it could be reason so that one of the poison facets just simply has its proc removed (or a new facet added without a proc) since poison has special handling compared to other elements.


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 Post subject: Re: Facet Suggestion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:44 pm 
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highest poison dps wins when applied from diff spell sources, all pois procs are spells so won't overwrite anything. The procs on pois facets are nothing but eye candy and would be fine to remove IMO.

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