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Should we revert to 1.21z?
Yes - Revert back to 1.21z with the anti rush measures in place 35%  35%  [ 17 ]
No - Leave it as it currently is 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
No - Adjust monster charms and continue testing 52%  52%  [ 25 ]
Other - post your thoughts 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 48
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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:00 pm 
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If we revert now.. will that take a reset? That will cause an even bigger flame war if you consider the time people already put into their chars.

All I seek is balance. I'm on no one's side except Terry's.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:28 pm 

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My thought is this, the patch has been live for a couple months with a few unforeseen issues. Let's revert back to 1.21z and re-work some balance concerns contained in 1.3a for the next reset. Lets think of this as the "beta test" and take what has been learned to re-formulate how to go next. Most changes would be small subtle alterations of a few skills and maybe items.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:18 am 
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I didnt vote yet cuz id say all that is needed to be fixed is boss phys immunity, so if its possible to do that rapidly id say only fix the monster charms. But if its a big work then i guess revert and reset is for the best. I'll bbs to vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:32 am 
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Dieu wrote:
I didnt vote yet cuz id say all that is needed to be fixed is boss phys immunity, so if its possible to do that rapidly id say only fix the monster charms. But if its a big work then i guess revert and reset is for the best. I'll bbs to vote.


It took Steel about 2 minutes to change the value on the boss charms, I'm not sure myself how it works but I know it doesn't require a patch and it's serverside.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:44 am 
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Only for the pleasure of another reset i wanna vote revert lol but its probably a big annoyement for many players if we reset at this time... Many of the changes in 1.13 are good so reverting seems a bad idea after all. My vote is adjust monster charms even tho id really like another reset lol ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:02 am 
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no, revert means inferno leap bug back, tele on trangs, skillers, etc.etc. + reset but it's too soon.
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Let's revert back to 1.21z and re-work some balance concerns contained in 1.3a for the next reset.
You really want people to sit 2 weeks slowly creeping on ladders leader? Just to fix some minor issues?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:11 pm 
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You should change the 'no- leave it as it is' to 'No, I have a poison zon'

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:29 pm 
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since this is the first ladder I have experienced, I can't say whether or not we should revert. However, I have read these forums fairly thoroughly recently and it seems the major issue at hand is that physical immunities on bosses are too high; since it seems that Steel has been able to find a quick easy fix, what reason would we have to revert? Anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:08 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
since it seems that Steel has been able to find a quick easy fix, what reason would we have to revert? Anyone?


There are more issues with this patch than just physical resistance, but the majority of those points have been argued to death, resurrection, and bloody death again. (Well, the melee ones anyway)

I personally voted to revert, but I expect that to be in the minority. A lot of good things came from this patch, and a lot of things were done extremely well. While I don't agree with a whole lot of things this patch has done, fixing the unforeseen blunder that happened with changing Amp values is definitely a good thing and should happen. If that's all that happens, well at this point I'll take whatever bone is thrown melee's way.

Curious to know, if we do fix the boss physical resistance, are other minuscule, easy fix solutions going to be added? Such as Corpse Explosion losing it's delay, which I understand was just an oversight and wasn't actually meant to be in along with the doubling of the mana cost and such.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:32 pm 
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this clearly shows the majority of people want to revert back and remove the dreaded anti rush

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
this clearly shows the majority of people want to revert back and remove the dreaded anti rush


um... no it doesn't... it shows the majority of people (that have voted) just want to lower phys immunes.. unless I'm missing something about the poll lol

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:57 pm 
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It's not the anti-rush in itself that is screwing this up. It is the combination of extreme nerfs on top of it, making it extremely frustrating to play melee, therefore anyone stuck with a melee char wanting to get rushed since they are pretty much useless anyways.

What me and Steel have been doing is messing around with the physical resist on the boss charm to bring it to an acceptable value. The issue with this is it conflicts with the Hardcore role of melee vs. the Softcore role of melee.

In 1.21 and previous patches melee was considered too strong for 1 reason, crushing blow. Removing in itself is fine, but further nerfing made it more complex, especially since Soulmancer even stated that it would make melee useless and go for small tweaks instead of huge nerfs.

Antirush by itself would have been fine. Antirush + half of the current builds not viable after a3-a4 NM when boss resists start to shoot up. For example, Hell Andariel is currently physical immune.

Hell Baal has 145% physical resist, on top of 50% block. I don't know the values for norm and NM baal, but it's quite sad. In 1.21 we had a strong amplify damage to bring his physical reistance low enough to actually damage him. Now you can just barely break it with a maxed amp.

Many of us have agreed to lift some of the boss physical resistance. To do this we first want to know where this patch is going and what is the role of melee. With casters and poison zons soloing Hell Act bosses, while being good at trash, and having lifecharms+call to arms.. it makes melee pointless. Rabies and frostbite are okay, but still casters so far have proven to be much much stronger, on top of being able to effectively clear trash, something Melee was always quite terrible at.

The blame rests on everyone and on no one. If it's a community patch then vote on what should be done.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
It's not the anti-rush in itself that is screwing this up. It is the combination of extreme nerfs on top of it, making it extremely frustrating to play melee, therefore anyone stuck with a melee char wanting to get rushed since they are pretty much useless anyways.

What me and Steel have been doing is messing around with the physical resist on the boss charm to bring it to an acceptable value. The issue with this is it conflicts with the Hardcore role of melee vs. the Softcore role of melee.

In 1.21 and previous patches melee was considered too strong for 1 reason, crushing blow. Removing in itself is fine, but further nerfing made it more complex, especially since Soulmancer even stated that it would make melee useless and go for small tweaks instead of huge nerfs.

Antirush by itself would have been fine. Antirush + half of the current builds not viable after a3-a4 NM when boss resists start to shoot up. For example, Hell Andariel is currently physical immune.

Hell Baal has 145% physical resist, on top of 50% block. I don't know the values for norm and NM baal, but it's quite sad. In 1.21 we had a strong amplify damage to bring his physical reistance low enough to actually damage him. Now you can just barely break it with a maxed amp.

Many of us have agreed to lift some of the boss physical resistance. To do this we first want to know where this patch is going and what is the role of melee. With casters and poison zons soloing Hell Act bosses, while being good at trash, and having lifecharms+call to arms.. it makes melee pointless. Rabies and frostbite are okay, but still casters so far have proven to be much much stronger, on top of being able to effectively clear trash, something Melee was always quite terrible at.

The blame rests on everyone and on no one. If it's a community patch then vote on what should be done.


it's a community patch in the sense that certain members of the community were given rights to make changes.

just because an entire community votes for fire sorcs to be given god mode doesn't mean it will or should be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:52 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
Zikur wrote:
this clearly shows the majority of people want to revert back and remove the dreaded anti rush


um... no it doesn't... it shows the majority of people (that have voted) just want to lower phys immunes.. unless I'm missing something about the poll lol

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:53 pm 
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stars wrote:
it's a community patch in the sense that certain members of the community were given rights to make changes.

just because an entire community votes for fire sorcs to be given god mode doesn't mean it will or should be done.



Well all I am trying to say is take what Terry did and tweak it slightly, yet the select few who were in charge decided to make huge changes based on a biased perspective and not the perspective which made this mod even work.

If you are ready to make such huge changes you should be ready to take criticism for the people you shafted, namely, everyone else.

Be reasonable about your statements. Do you seriously believe that players like me and Steel want 'godmode'. No. We want balance. We want to be able to pick a Maul druid or Dclaw sin and have the same chances as a hydra sorc or poison necro.

Melee is bad vs trash but good vs bosses. Minor tweaks can be made to make melee less godly vs. bosses, such as just removing crushing blow instead of blasting them off the map. I'm not trying to resurect the 'melee sux you suck' argument, I am trying to pinpoint the reason the change was made.

I don't know when this whole 'Hell isn't Candyland'*, thing started, but it's going to cause more problems in the future.

Terry balanced elemental damage in hell on the assumption of maxed resists.
Boss physical resistance was set on the assumption that melees would use 50%+ amp damage.
Removing skillers worked because you added +skills on items to make up for it.

your not going to find the balance that Terry seeked and what clearly worked and what draws people to this mod if you balance on the assumption that 'Hardcore did it'

I don't have a bone to pick with hardcore, I personally don't play because of lag and because the mod wasn't made with hardcore in mind, causing a lot of shitty things that make you die, especially if you don't know that 'this and this boss you must do this' or whatever other lack of knowledge.

What I am trying to say is this. Teamwork is fine, but, teamwork existed as the 'melee bad vs trash, good vs bosses' formula, not the 'you must have amp and heal and sorc armor and oak or you lose' formula, which is used in hardcore because you can't die, but not as much in softcore because you play as you go and when you die or get stuck you can think up a stratagem.

-edit- btw Zikur..... fucking epic

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:21 pm 

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all other arguments aside what difference does it make what u vote for on any of these polls since even on the poll duff took about anti-rush measure the majority was over looked so not much point in making polls since the community is ignored with the exception of a few members


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:02 pm 

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Can we stop making 12346892 posts about changes, and about how much melees suck?
I think we get the point,
amp nerf + cb nerf + boss charm = melees seriously underpowered now,
steel + rasta lowering boss charm = melees can now do dmg
flaming of people begins, including blaming dev team for the patch, blue, kev, etc, because there obviously has to be someone to blame, since simply telling them there is a problem/asking them politely to fix it is just ludicrous.

so we have a solution (perhaps) now, with lowering the charm resist, hooray. Now just tell the volunteers behind the mod that you've found a way to fix it, and ask them if it is possible to implement it. If not, quit being anti-social, get a party together, and play your precious melee char as a support, not as a tank/dps/pwnage char as it has been in years past.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:42 pm 

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tracedinair wrote:
since simply telling them there is a problem/asking them politely to fix it is just ludicrous.
This issue with regard to physical dmg chars(it doesn't affect only melee) came to light a few days before patch went live. Since then a few other things have also come to light, such as the cooldown on Ce for one. What would have made a bit more sense would have been to delay release a few days and revising these issues and then releasing the patch. Even after the phys res issue surfaced and ideas on how to fix it, which was about 3 weeks ago it hasn't been fixed. In one thread Kev even said he wasn't opposed to reverting back to 1.21z with current anti-rush measures. Sure, some good things have been done with this patch. My thought is simply revert back for a bit while a few concerns get re-done. Then re-implement it. I'm one who feels that some early to mid-game items got a tad over nerfed in regards to res and maybe dr. Go back and look at critterkiller and Blue's sites and compare.
Rasta wrote:
I don't know when this whole 'Hell isn't Candyland'*, thing started, but it's going to cause more problems in the future.

Terry balanced elemental damage in hell on the assumption of maxed resists.
Boss physical resistance was set on the assumption that melees would use 50%+ amp damage.
Removing skillers worked because you added +skills on items to make up for it.

your not going to find the balance that Terry seeked and what clearly worked and what draws people to this mod if you balance on the assumption that 'Hardcore did it'

I don't have a bone to pick with hardcore, I personally don't play because of lag and because the mod wasn't made with hardcore in mind, causing a lot of shitty things that make you die, especially if you don't know that 'this and this boss you must do this' or whatever other lack of knowledge.

All true things right there. Most casual players or newer players lack this knowledge and suffer for it. Even perusing these forums some info is outdated with this patch in place, so they find out the hard way. What enjoyment can be found when things are so tweaked to make hell, virtually impossible without the perfect team.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:22 am 
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tracedinair wrote:
Can we stop making 12346892 posts about changes, and about how much melees suck?
I think we get the point,
amp nerf + cb nerf + boss charm = melees seriously underpowered now,
steel + rasta lowering boss charm = melees can now do dmg
flaming of people begins, including blaming dev team for the patch, blue, kev, etc, because there obviously has to be someone to blame, since simply telling them there is a problem/asking them politely to fix it is just ludicrous.

so we have a solution (perhaps) now, with lowering the charm resist, hooray. Now just tell the volunteers behind the mod that you've found a way to fix it, and ask them if it is possible to implement it. If not, quit being anti-social, get a party together, and play your precious melee char as a support, not as a tank/dps/pwnage char as it has been in years past.


Melee 'support' role? the fuck, is this WoW or something?

I support those who stepped up to volunteer for this, but, if someone says 'Melee must tank', then I will constructively critisize that. It looks like Blue wants to implement the change, once I talk to Steel again tommorow we will present something and how to do it, (since im retarded with computers)

im not blaming blue and kev for anything, im trying to work with them to promote a balanced patch and make this a more enjoyable experience for everyone

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:12 am 
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Rasta wrote:
What me and Steel have been doing is messing around with the physical resist on the boss charm to bring it to an acceptable value. The issue with this is it conflicts with the Hardcore role of melee vs. the Softcore role of melee.


There is no different view of Hardcore melee vs. Softcore melee. Please stop acting like it's different. All of us hardcore players who have played through melee have the same gripes about melee that softcore do. We're not off praising melee for tanking because in actuality it's often better for them to sit in the corner or stand in front of a boss and not attack at all.

I've done plenty of hardcore bosses with summons as the only "tank". There is no real niche melee fills only in Hardcore, they have the same problems as softcore melee does. This ladder, never have I said to myself "Oh no! We don't have a melee in our party, how are we going to X".

tracedinair wrote:
If not, quit being anti-social, get a party together, and play your precious melee char as a support, not as a tank/dps/pwnage char as it has been in years past.



Erm, except half the melee builds available don't have a party support skill. And every other one that does is provides support better as a caster.

For example, yes, a Fury Druid provides Oak. Does a Rabies/Fire/Windy etc contribute more to the party than a Fury Druid will? Easily.
Can a Smiter play "support" by providing Fanaticism? Yes. Will a Healer Pally be infinitely more useful doing so than a Smiter? You bet.

Most of the "support" characters in this game preform a another role in addition to providing X aura/buff/debuff. Melee no longer preform their role as physical boss DPS, thus destroying the niche they had.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:19 am 
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Speaking about physical resistances. IMO the best would be to buff amp by new formula, let's say for the first 4-5 points it would be gain 3% or 4% or 5% -physres but for rest 1 point per soft/hard. So 5lvl amp on items would be 41% but 25lvl on necs 65% and 45lvl 85%.

Edit: No idea what formula was used for existing amp but
Code:
-par5-(lvl < 5) ?(lvl*4):(20+lvl)
reads if skill level is lower than 5 then amp gains 4% per point, if higher/equal 5 then 1%. Ofc this can be lame formula.

Worth investing imo. With whole hard/soft point formula as it is now it's hard to balance. Either that or rebalance all bosses as they're for sure well planned when comes for phys res. OR remove all phys res from bossunique(need testing maybe today)
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Do you seriously believe that players like me and Steel want 'godmode'.
Yes.
Quote:
and play your precious melee char as a support, not as a tank/dps/pwnage char as it has been in years past.
I've been telling this to Rasta, he can always BO my wolfs/blades if he thinks he should be needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:07 pm 

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No, we shouldn't revert. I don't want the shitstorm that is going on for current poison chars and former melees to be brought back. Also, anti-rush should be made more and more strict and people who are against anti-rush should be directed to battle.net immediately and unconditionally.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:22 pm 
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@ Abominae, my bad, I only made that assumption when I made my first post on my barb sucking and I got this answer 'boohoo your barb sucks he should only tank' or something along that line of thought.

RushDaddy wrote:
No, we shouldn't revert. I don't want the shitstorm that is going on for current poison chars and former melees to be brought back. Also, anti-rush should be made more and more strict and people who are against anti-rush should be directed to battle.net immediately and unconditionally.


I agree that anti-rush needs to be brought back to nightmare, however, I also think for us to do that we should add a later waypoint in a5 so the baal quest causes less logistical problems, however this isn't the thread for this, so once melee gets fixed we can sit down and discuss it (lol @ me talking about not derailing shit)

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:05 pm 

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RushDaddy wrote:
No, we shouldn't revert. I don't want the shitstorm that is going on for current poison chars and former melees to be brought back. Also, anti-rush should be made more and more strict and people who are against anti-rush should be directed to battle.net immediately and unconditionally.

Would it be any worse a shitstorm than we presently have? Not likely. What ever happened to playing as the player chooses to play? I still see lvl 60+ leading the mules thru normal, nothing has changed. All that will happen is those who want to rush and be rushed will simply make additional chars for the purpose, but people are blind to that fact. There has been a few good things come from this patch, but it needs more polish. IMO, last patch had more balance, some simply thought it was "too easy".

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Quote:
Would it be any worse a shitstorm than we presently have?
Ofc, people are on middle of preparation for LoS, hell baal etc. and revert means necessary reset as it(IMO) will corrupt chars. Shitstorm^64.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Just FYI, I would be very surprised if you could do a revert to 1.21z without a reset.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:52 pm 

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Rasta wrote:
I agree that anti-rush needs to be brought back to nightmare, however, I also think for us to do that we should add a later waypoint in a5 so the baal quest causes less logistical problems, however this isn't the thread for this, so once melee gets fixed we can sit down and discuss it (lol @ me talking about not derailing shit)
Anti-rush should be there with a cap to level difference. + or - 15 to level difference restrictions would be good imo.

kwikster wrote:
What ever happened to playing as the player chooses to play? I still see lvl 60+ leading the mules thru normal, nothing has changed. All that will happen is those who want to rush and be rushed will simply make additional chars for the purpose, but people are blind to that fact. There has been a few good things come from this patch, but it needs more polish. IMO, last patch had more balance, some simply thought it was "too easy".
Have the level difference cap at 15 and count the switches to b.net. I say "you count" because i don't think i will be able to count past a certain number (likely to be 500) without forgetting where I was.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:29 pm 

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RushDaddy wrote:
Have the level difference cap at 15 and count the switches to b.net. I say "you count" because i don't think i will be able to count past a certain number (likely to be 500) without forgetting where I was.
Do that when you create a game and problem solved. A forced cap WOULD cause problem beyond your scope of comprehension. What you desire to have implemented is impossible to have function correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:33 pm 

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RushDaddy wrote:
Have the level difference cap at 15 and count the switches to b.net. I say "you count" because i don't think i will be able to count past a certain number (likely to be 500) without forgetting where I was.
Do that when you create a game and problem solved. A forced cap WOULD cause problem beyond your scope of comprehension. I don't understand why anti-rush solutions need to be so complex. What you desire to have implemented is impossible to have function correctly. Besides, do what you propose and how much fun will it be playing with the same 5 people all the time?
blue_myriddn wrote:
Just FYI, I would be very surprised if you could do a revert to 1.21z without a reset.
[/quote]Yes, it is clearly understood it would require a full reset to do this. Any changes beyond the MC's would at minimum require some form of update, that goes without saying. As for those getting ready for LoS that number is rather small comparatively.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:29 pm 
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RushDaddy wrote:
and people who are against anti-rush should be directed to battle.net immediately and unconditionally.


A FUCKING MEN


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Quote:
Yes, it is clearly understood it would require a full reset to do this. Any changes beyond the MC's would at minimum require some form of update, that goes without saying.
Says who? Last ladder there were 3 small updates with skill changes, gear changes and even diff changes without any reset, so I'm asking who says there should be a reset? you?
Quote:
As for those getting ready for LoS that number is rather small comparatively.
It's the ultimate goal of this mod.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:20 pm 

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Steel wrote:
Says who? Last ladder there were 3 small updates with skill changes, gear changes and even diff changes without any reset, so I'm asking who says there should be a reset? you?
It would be doable without reset, but seems that charms like shards would cause issues.
Quote:
It's the ultimate goal of this mod.
OFC it is. Hell I've not even seen it yet, and as things are ain't even gonna try, things are too wacked out. Seeming more and more like people are content with this cluster-fuck called 1.3a. Balance does not exist, skills and gear alterations have this bordering on ridiculous. All most parties need, necro for blades and maybe lr with poison, a sorc or 2 for dps, poison zon, druid for oak, healer and might add barb for bo. Viola cake walk all thru this mod. The barb is really optional and even druid could be left out.

As to anti-rush, easy fix, make ur own games with lvl restricts. Easy as falling off a log. Personally I could give shit one about rushes, no matter how it's done they will happen. What do I care about? Resolving things to restore the playability back to at least close to what we had in 1.21z.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:30 pm 
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stars wrote:
RushDaddy wrote:
and people who are against anti-rush should be directed to battle.net immediately and unconditionally.


A FUCKING MEN

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:36 pm 
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STR8 on high end melee items is removed - 0 - cb is nearly not existing, dex and energy/%mana, pierce are all over the every item and fucked AMP. HC team suggested caster mod, so we have it, tho I don't think we should revert, we should improve, not by making casters weaker, by making melee more viable.
1) Increase minimal spawn to 4ppl and divide all trash monsters hp by 50% - trash will be trash, bosses will have 3x hp than now
Code:
HPTable = 100,100,200,300,375,450,475,500

2)Inc drain on bosses, add new formula on amp (which I suggested or we can speak about that) and/or lower bossunique items.
3)Inc iron maiden return damage to make it harder to melee right clicking
4)All bosses let have AI delay 3 or 4 making them uber fucking impossible.
5)Pussies and whiners will argue.
Quote:
Resolving things to restore the playability back to at least close to what we had in 1.21z.
Instead of adding new things you want to revert? huh? 1.21z was fun but that's all about it, with reset new challenge comes, old methods aren't classy.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:30 pm 

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Steel wrote:
STR8 on high end melee items is removed - 0 - cb is nearly not existing, dex and energy/%mana, pierce are all over the every item and fucked AMP. HC team suggested caster mod, so we have it, tho I don't think we should revert, we should improve, not by making casters weaker, by making melee more viable.
1) Increase minimal spawn to 4ppl and divide all trash monsters hp by 50% - trash will be trash, bosses will have 3x hp than now
Code:
HPTable = 100,100,200,300,375,450,475,500

2)Inc drain on bosses, add new formula on amp (which I suggested or we can speak about that) and/or lower bossunique items.
3)Inc iron maiden return damage to make it harder to melee right clicking
4)All bosses let have AI delay 3 or 4 making them uber fucking impossible.
5)Pussies and whiners will argue.
Quote:
Resolving things to restore the playability back to at least close to what we had in 1.21z.
Instead of adding new things you want to revert? huh? 1.21z was fun but that's all about it, with reset new challenge comes, old methods aren't classy.
No, what I said is revert and re-work this patch and bring it back after more polish. What you propose is going to make an already difficult situation even worse. Changing spawns, and adding difficulty without giving much back. Changing spawns will also make monsters hit harder, compounding the lack of dr. Since mod is based on having max/stacked res the effects will have more impact if changed. It's a snowball effect.

Since too few people want to revert, then just adjust the MC's to reduce phys res and call it good that is option 3. No need to change anything else at this stage. Small changes not compounded changes. That's what got us where we are now.

Looking at the realms as of now 38 total games, 5 hell(1 pub) 4 nm (2 pub) rest all normal. There are way too few pub hell games most of the time as it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:52 am 
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Quote:
Changing spawns will also make monsters hit harder, compounding the lack of dr.
It's not changing spawn, just base hp of mobs, so on players 1 2 3 4 hp are the same. 6% more dmg/def/ar is only when someone joins.
Quote:
No, what I said is revert and re-work this patch and bring it back after more polish.
And I said what I wanted to.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:27 am 

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Steel wrote:
1) Increase minimal spawn to 4ppl and divide all trash monsters hp by 50% - trash will be trash, bosses will have 3x hp than now
Code:
HPTable = 100,100,200,300,375,450,475,500

So I'm misreading this? Looks like you say it will increase bosses to 3x current hp, while reducing trash down a bit. Or am I taking this wrong? Am I also wrong in thinking the amp change would require at least a small update, or if adjusted server-side client-side will lie to us?

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:30 am 
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Well it's just my idea how to reduce single spawning of bosses. So yeah, first increase everyones hp by 3x, then reduce (in monstats) for trash to make it easy killing alone.
No idea why dev-team didn't want to do this tho :(.
Quote:
Am I also wrong in thinking the amp change would require at least a small update, or if adjusted server-side client-side will lie to us?
Small updates aren't something wrong, just have to done them correct, so if everyones agree we should change something more than just monster charm(in uniques.txt) completely serverside bugfree, we can do more than, ofc no silly bugs so our server hosters would have to update every day.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:35 am 

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S/s is so much worse cuz people are too damn lazy to put work in, ran one game. Part of why my chars aren't farther than they are. I leave games when s/s'd. Ran one game to throne didn't s/s anything from start of act5, when I joined, till throne. Then all I heard was lets s/s this shit. Too bad we can't figure out a way to make monstats.txt have a progressive function. I.E. s/s'd then 6 people join bosses hp climbs by x% to compensate.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:40 am 
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Quote:
Too bad we can't figure out a way to make monstats.txt have a progressive function. I.E. s/s'd then 6 people join bosses hp climbs by x% to compensate.
Hm, I'm not modding gury but maybe, maybe you could add special aura(like the one that has regeneration now, aka bossprayer) to them boosting their hp based on party around, if functions are in game then it could be done, but maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:45 am 

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All I know is when I get my melee to hell I wanna do more than stand around lookin good :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:54 am 
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kwikster wrote:
All I know is when I get my melee to hell I wanna do more than stand around lookin good :lol:


QFT.

There have been countless times where it's more productive to stand away from the boss and not cause counters than it would be to be up in his face and cause damage. (What little damage I can w/ murdered Amp damage... if it gets casted, that is.)
Pathetic, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:27 am 

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if you dont want things single spawned then leave no one is forcing you to single spawn everything. same with rushing no one is forcing you to rush, if you dont want to be rushed use level restrict or just leave the game where rushing is taken place.Why is that so hard?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:37 am 
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He said he had left many games because of that. Mod is firmed as being hard and challenging - what's hard in killing single spawned Diablo with full team made of healers and poison chars? really? you're playing this for challenge or what? There's no glory after you use leap bug to kill nec(it still exist :D) or gang hell andy with 40k meteos while she has only 900k hp. Rants rants :P.

So people who want to balance melee to atleast stand near 1lvl unsynergized meteo don't want another boss destroyer as there are already ways to do that, already set in motion by many players. "Melee being too good" will never be valid argument, not this ladder anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:21 am 

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its a game people play it as THEY WANT. if you want a challenge dont pick easy builds, dont play with uber builds psn fire healers etc. go play meele have a challenge. play solo have a challenge, find other people who want this challenge and play together. lots of options.

There is always going to be uber duo trio or single teams that just tear stuff up and people will find them make them to play as they want


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:31 am 
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Quote:
its a game people play it as THEY WANT.
ofc, but they should fail if they do something wrong, that's the point of this mod. I'm not saying "don't SS" as I clearly understand people do what they want(72lvl sorcs/zons/necs on NORM)and they do it because they can! I say make it more difficulty so SS means nothing, forcing someone to play as it was meant by draconian rules like removing CB, destroying amp won't work, as we can see it now.
Quote:
if you want a challenge dont pick easy builds
?? I'll skip that part
Quote:
dont play with uber builds psn fire healers etc
because they're too easy? You play them just like any other build, with mouse and keyboard with little knowledge what to do on right moment, it still challenging.
Quote:
go play meele have a challenge. play solo have a challenge, find other people who want this challenge and play together. lots of options.

There is always going to be uber duo trio or single teams that just tear stuff up and people will find them make them to play as they want
I guess you're here because you were banned from bnet.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:26 pm 

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no im here as this mod is more fun than bnet. go make an account and ill say hi to prove my point


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:17 pm 

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kwikster wrote:
RushDaddy wrote:
Have the level difference cap at 15 and count the switches to b.net. I say "you count" because i don't think i will be able to count past a certain number (likely to be 500) without forgetting where I was.
Do that when you create a game and problem solved. A forced cap WOULD cause problem beyond your scope of comprehension. I don't understand why anti-rush solutions need to be so complex. What you desire to have implemented is impossible to have function correctly. Besides, do what you propose and how much fun will it be playing with the same 5 people all the time?

Bold point 1: This is what I do when I create games and am not drunk or stoned. But, I don't want people who are at the same clvl as me in a4 while I am at a2.
Bold point 2: Anti-rush itself may or may not have created problems beyond our scopes of comprehension. But it did not.
Bold point 3: Uh, complex? This is easily the simplest anti-rush feature that I can think of. Even implementing this and removing mode restrictions may do. Requires tests ofc.
Bold point 4: Teamplay anyone?! Well, it may or may not be annoying when the same 5 people do stupid mistakes over and over. Ultimate goal of anti-rush is actually make people learn to play or get stuck. Also, more and more strict anti-rush intimidates people like asteroth and helps this community to get cleaned from them.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:03 pm 
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blinky99 wrote:
etc. go play meele have a challenge



Baal has 145% physical resist.

Theres a challenge, and then, there's technically impossible

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blue_myriddn wrote:
This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:03 am 

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Rasta wrote:
blinky99 wrote:
etc. go play meele have a challenge



Baal has 145% physical resist.

Theres a challenge, and then, there's technically impossible
You actually have a chance if you play a frenzy barb and you got a ctc level 20 amp on striking located either off-weapon or on weapons in both hands.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:23 am 
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ctc 20lvl amp is like 32% still, 1% per 4 softpoints. IMO 50lvl amp on wpns could be ok, and 100%ctc.
/sarcasm


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:26 am 

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RushDaddy wrote:
Rasta wrote:
blinky99 wrote:
etc. go play meele have a challenge



Baal has 145% physical resist.

Theres a challenge, and then, there's technically impossible
You actually have a chance if you play a frenzy barb and you got a ctc level 20 amp on striking located either off-weapon or on weapons in both hands.
Tell you what, find me that item in current patch, and we have something to discuss. As it stands now physical dmg chars only have use vs trash.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:27 am 

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@kwikster: you sir, have taught me the fact that i should use BBCodes when I try to make a sarcasm. What was the html code for that anyway? Oh, I remember:

[sarcasm][/sarcasm]

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:41 pm 
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hrooom dooom the mad and the drama starts anew!

On a serious note, now that the poll is done it is up to us as a community to take the next step. I will do further testing with Steel when I have time today, and we will send our results to Soulmancer, hopefully the fix will be implemented early next week, and then we can further balance this patch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhunihL9vjs

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blue_myriddn wrote:
This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:17 pm 
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I just started this season, I played a FB/meteor sorce and a barb so far

I would like to say, the sorce can clear all sorts of trash solo in a full game ( i skip fire immunes, although merc can kill them), she can NOT solo bosses, even bosses I was at 20 levels ago.

The barb is terrible at trash, although he cannot kill many bosses, he can stand there and take enough damage to prevent other party members from dying which inturn kills the boss.

If my sorce plays with a tank, she does good DPS, and does not die. If my barb plays with a DPSer, the boss dies.

I feel that the problem is that the barb does not really clear trash as well as the sorce, and the player would rather play the sorce and they feel that the barb is underpowered. If people think that a barb is able to solo a hell boss, they are wrong and missing the point of the mod.

If the tank (barb or w/e) was able to clear trash, hold their own against a boss, or be able to solo a boss, they would be overpowered. A melee character versing a physical immune is the same as a fire sorce versing a fire immune.

I do not think any balance needs to be changed on this matter.

P.S. Nerf posion


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Quote:
I feel that the problem is that the barb does not really clear trash as well as the sorce, and the player would rather play the sorce and they feel that the barb is underpowered. If people think that a barb is able to solo a hell boss, they are wrong and missing the point of the mod.
Problem is nec has 4 recastable barbs(!) that do exactly the same as fully geared barb. Trash is trash, ww barb clears it without losing a pot, but 10x slower than sorcs, but he does.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Problem is nec has 4 recastable barbs(!) that do exactly the same as fully geared barb. Trash is trash, ww barb clears it without losing a pot, but 10x slower than sorcs, but he does.

I dunno, I have been playin a barb through NM and at each boss, the recastable tanks simply don't perform as well as my barb. Not even close.
I just did meph with a couple zons and their decoys (maxxed) couldn't hold meph in place anywhere near as well as my mediocre geared barb could. I think that for most players in the game, a barb will far outshine any recastable tank.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:08 pm 
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It may lead to another conclusion but hell. Oak + blades OR wolfs are better than any tank. I came to this last ladder when I tried to get meph shard - blades without oak insta died from hurricane and couldn't hold him - keep in mind ai delay on meph is around(blind guess, I don't check in files .txt every thing I say, so don't take this as a fact) 7(frames) so he will do 4 per sec at most, while hurri is 20 frame per delay attack. Adding oak, any, even from wisp boosted blades beyond any repair. So you may think I was kidding in other post about BOing blades but it's all truth, blades + dec + any life buff is simply the best, team work yes.
I'm afraid, seeing how people adopt forum guys' ideas, that they will do oak bots as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we revert?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:14 pm 
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It seemed to me that once the some real issues were found that there were posts saying 1) let's first find what all is out there before reseting the whole ladder just to find another quirk that will inevitably occur upon patching. 2) Some more were found like CE, a few 'evil force' spawning items and the like, 3) there were polls done on what should we do at this point. , 4) posts about what can actually be done server side, and 5) here we are with some people being upset because change has not been rapidly implemented.

So I would say that even though some feathers have been ruffled, there is progress. I would suggest that those that 'love the mod so much' to play but are thinking of abandoning ship play casually, try some things out that you haven't just for the shits and giggles, and keep things in a positive frame of reference. It's a bloody awesome mod, let's play with what we have, and be patient as a real decision can be made about when to put a worthy patch together for a reset.

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