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 Post subject: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:19 pm 
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i belive many ppl get stuck at 50-60 lvl even 70 or so,
and i guess game gets boring or frustraiting to some having no way to advance or venture on .I myself am one of those
with no consistant party or enought online friends it seem impossible to pub last quest
today we managed to get to Glasya with a nooby party of 3 sors 2 fire druids 1 pala (healer) and 2 EXP hunters :D
we barely manage to kill 1st two..but when Glasya came , we got owned and ppl left the game
so my question :what is a good party and how to make it ? (for last q)
what auras and curses are most important to cast on which boss?
can u give some nice tips or inputs how to deafet those bosses?
something like ..what do u belive is essential to have, or what makes your run easier

also,with this topic i am sending a msg to all who want this quest to be done
pm me ingame and maybe we mix something up


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:02 pm 
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essentials :
buffs
curses
dps

in the current patch that dps consists of ele dmg mostly

I actually just did norm baal with my own party last night and was surprised at how easy it was. this is my first ladder playing a dedicated psn char ( i had a psn/bow zon that got to 60 ish) i cant believe how powerful it is. for melee to be nerfed so hard and poison to reign supreme is rather odd. i was able to down all the minions and baal himself with a 3 man party which is good for me cause thats less micro.
Image
what you are seeing is my rabies druid (obviously) a healer/auradin and a pure summoner/curse necro. everything melted with -51% LR and -28% psn res on the druid and with lv 20 oak and a high lvl holy bolt staying alive wasnt that hard either.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:29 pm 
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For all bosses, you need to consider three strategies:
1) How to control the boss - You must keep the boss as predictable as you can.
2) How to survive the boss - If you can control the boss this is much easier.
3) How to damage the boss - After (1) and (2) damaging the boss consistently will let you win after some amount of time.

Controlling Bosses
1) Keeping the boss in one place - Summons and Tank classes (barbs, druids, etc) are the most common. Huge amounts of Slow works very well too and doesn't require you to be hit (as soon as the very slow attack animation starts, just leave the area).
2) Keep the boss moving - If you can outrun the boss but remain the closest target when his AI checks for targets, then he will continue to chase you but attack nothing. This is extrememly effective for builds that don't need to target a lot (e.g. Poison, Blaze, Thunderstorm). Ranged attack bosses can be held in place if you run circles around them; this allows party ranged-attackers to stand outside of your circle and shoot in.

Surviving Bosses
1) Increase your EffectiveLife (e.g. high resistances, absorbs, Def, BoneArmor, HolyBolt, healing potions).
2) Reduce enemy damage (e.g. DR/MDR, Weakness curses, Energy Shield).
3) Evade attacks (e.g. Shield block, Dodge skills, run quickly).

Damaging Bosses
1) One of the biggest problems with attacking bosses is the counter-attack spells a boss can cast. The faster you attack the faster you will be hurt. To reduce counters, use high-damage attacks that are not fast.
2) Do not attack if your attacks options produce more counters or screen clutter than your damage justifies. Rather than attack, you need to find a way to help your team's Boss Survival (e.g. return to town to buy potions, cast party-Buff spells) or Boss Control (Tank the boss for a while, Slow the boss).

Example - For a party of 3 sorcs, 2 fire druids and 1 healer pally
1) Druids cast summons to prevent boss from attacking party members, and reduce boss movements. Keep this to 1-2 tanking creatures at a time to reduce counters. Sometimes it's best to cast summons a little away from the boss, so that he has to travel a bit to attack the summon.
2) Healer pally maintains life of party members, possibly using an aura like Meditation to help the druid's summoning, or Conviction to help a sorc's damage.
3) The most effective damage sorc kills the boss while the other 2 run for potions. Sorcs might also buff party with FrozenArmor or add their damage to attack if the boss is well controlled and easy to survive.

General Example
1) In Norm, almost any character can tank a boss if they load up on DR/MDR using socketed diamonds in their armor and hat. They could also use emerald crafts and saphire crafts (for frozen armor proc) to extend this. You can amplify the effectiveness of DR/MDR using weakening curses like Decrepify, Weaken, or BattleCry. If you really wanted to, if shouldn't be hard to get your DR/MDR to around 120 in A5 norm using Starstone Diamonds (about 90DR/MDR via armor and hat), emerald crafts (20-30 depending on what you create), FrozenArmor (about 5 via saphire craft proc). That should be more than needed for most situations, but you could further amplify this via charged curses available on wands (Decrep gives a 25% boost, Weaken about 70% boost) or Energy Shield from staves (about 40% boost if 30%Deflection EShield).

This general advice should help with getting to NM in HU. My apologies in advance for over-simplifying or not addressing some scenarios (e.g. poison enchanted bosses or tele-bosses). I wanted to keep this brief.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:50 pm 
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great post Brevan.

One other thing that I would add is to prevent the boss from healing. This should be a HUGE priority of all teams who want to move forward. This means that someone should always being staying alive to keep doing small amounts of damage to keep them from fully regaining their health. If you keep that principle in mind, most boss fights just boil down to investing the time to get it done.

If everyone dies though - the boss goes right back up to full health and you are stuck. This is why survival in this mod (and not just uber dmg) is really the most important aspect.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:54 pm 
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motion to promote brevan to forum king.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
motion to promote brevan to forum king.


+1


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:00 am 
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ty brevan and blue for usufull information,and zikur for example.i saw u once in a game your micro is insane. U Should make a pov video on youtube


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:28 pm 
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man up!

though don't have much faith in melee characters right now, with the huge CB nerf physical melee characters may as well be hitting bosses with a cardboard sword and it doesn't appear the damage boost from str has helped alleviate that.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:32 pm 

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IMO the mod is way off balanced. Melee chars need a bit of love, I agree with Mancer they have little kill power vs bosses. I've seen battles where people rotate out tanks so weaps can be repaired. That's sad. DR and res need some adjusting as any char using a 2h weap has to run nearly a full inv of res charms just to make 75 res. All these changes at once were a bit of overkill. There is now an even narrower selection of gear that is viable due to this change. Perhaps we need to re-think some of the changes that were made. This far in and only 2 teams have completed hell baal, which I realize was part of the intent here. However, not all of us who play this mod have the desire nor time to invest on rolling the perfect rare, crafting the godly item nor the luck to find that elite piece. Many of us want at least a fighting chance of success. As it stand now the best chance for success is rolling with a healer, a tank(aka dmg sponge), a druid for oak, a sorc for dps and a source of poison such as a necro.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:34 pm 
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I did actually state this that I believed the extensive nerf to CB and amp damage would make melee fighters severely gimped vs bosses... Given they're much more at danger of dying then long range or poison builds. Those who worked on the patch disagreed with me. I kept trying to tell people that small changes have a dramatic effect on balancing. I modded HU for 5 years and know this well; some felt they knew better regarding balancing, but the bulk of melee builds that depend on physical are at a huge disadvantage versus bosses at the moment when compared to long range, poison or casters.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:44 pm 
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but without a melee or dmg sponge ur not going to advance. they have their place right now just not one stop killing machines. they need a tweak not an overhaul. IMO

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:05 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
However, not all of us who play this mod have the desire nor time to invest on rolling the perfect rare, crafting the godly item nor the luck to find that elite piece.

The game was re-balanced so that you don't have to take the time to roll the perfect rare anymore. Look carefully at the item changes and you should see this clearly. The concept of getting "good" at this game by sitting in town and putting items in to your cube several hundred times was one I found foolish and took steps to re-adjust that. I did so based on the feedback of players just like you who said things just like you said. With this patch, you got what you wished for, you just don't realize it because you are too lazy to actually look at what I did.

kwikster wrote:
Many of us want at least a fighting chance of success. As it stand now the best chance for success is rolling with a healer, a tank(aka dmg sponge), a druid for oak, a sorc for dps and a source of poison such as a necro.

Everyone has a fighting chance. Any team of 3 well played players should be able to accomplish the game. Not everyone has an easy path though and not everyone will beat Hell Baal. This is as it should be. Challenges are not to be overcome easily, they are supposed to be challenging. Some of you had it too easy last ladder and didn't realize that the mod was unbalanced then and not now.

Give melee some time - end game they are going to be powerful. I am playing a sorc now and while she does awesome damage, she is nearly useless at soloing anything due to the proliferation of fire immunes. When her merc dies, she is stopped completely in her tracks. Melee characters have a similar limitation, if they aren't equipped for DPS (and therefore have a lower life), they also need to rely on their mercs to deliver that damage. With the newly empowered weapons, a life buffed merc is a fearsome thing against random mobs.

As for quest bosses - only very talented and very well geared characters stand a chance of soloing them in Hell. As for Norm and NM though, they remain very accessible. My Barbarian has done normal Diablo 3 times now (done between level 46-52) and each time has done just fine. In one full game, there was just a healer and myself for the most part. Everyone else just died a whole lot while my barb wielding 2x Crainte Vomir and a single point in Frenzy

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:44 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
With this patch, you got what you wished for, you just don't realize it because you are too lazy to actually look at what I did.

I'm lazy? Really? This from the one who rolled out and untested unverified patch? No, Blue I did not get what I wanted this patch. I wanted a more moderate adjustment about halfway between what was and what is. That would have been better all the way around. I voiced my concerns for those who don't have a thousand years playing this mod. I do not expect to be able to solo act end bosses, never have. The shift in gear choices in reality render many of those items that were little used into never used now.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Give melee some time - end game they are going to be powerful. I am playing a sorc now and while she does awesome damage, she is nearly useless at soloing anything due to the proliferation of fire immunes.

Blue, sorry but I have to disagree here. Unless there is some new mystical weapon out there, they won't. There is no way given the changes. As you get stronger end game , so do the mobs and bosses alike. Simple fact. End game gear hasn't been ramped that much to counter what was removed. Yes, I have looked at the items calculated dmgs I know the buffs. Fact is even with amp it's not a huge improvement. The loss of dr, res and sorbs combined with melee nerf was a bit too much.

Yesterday did NM meph with a zon, a sorc, a barb, a fury druid and a healer. Halfway thru each needed to stop and repair weapons. The sorc kept dying cuz her gear sucked, but that's not the point. It should not take that long in a full spawned game to accomplish that task.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:29 am 
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Zikur wrote:
but without a melee or dmg sponge ur not going to advance. they have their place right now just not one stop killing machines. they need a tweak not an overhaul. IMO


You forgot to mention the fact Spirit Blades can preform the exact same job as a melee will. As it is now, there is extremely little incentive to roll melee outside of novelty.

I really don't understand when melee became considered so overpowered when Poison has been doing the same thing, except better & safer.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:08 am 
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Abominae wrote:
Zikur wrote:
but without a melee or dmg sponge ur not going to advance. they have their place right now just not one stop killing machines. they need a tweak not an overhaul. IMO


You forgot to mention the fact Spirit Blades can preform the exact same job as a melee will. As it is now, there is extremely little incentive to roll melee outside of novelty.

I really don't understand when melee became considered so overpowered when Poison has been doing the same thing, except better & safer.


I agree with this. Now that I can't crushing blow we may as well all roll poison chars or meteor sorc. If your gonna nerf 1 thing you just give us less options, howbout you just nerf everything instead or give crushing blow back. The other melee nerfs I can understand, but having 0 sources of CB is ridiculous.

There's only 1 viable melee wpn now, gris caddy with 5 ber runes.

My barb can hit an act boss for 5 minutes with double grandfathers and maxed frenzy/mastery, but I wont drop him 1 tic of damage. 1 psn strike does like 1/10 of hp bar.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:21 am 
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changing cb numbers would be a tweak. thats not to say other classes dont need one.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:08 am 
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just bring back old amp.
Quote:
You forgot to mention the fact Spirit Blades can preform the exact same job as a melee will.
+1. spirit blades with oak can tank forever, dmg comes from psn or fire then. Having a barb/dru/din in front of boss could only lead to unexpected outcome while with with spirit blades it's 101% win.


Last edited by Steel on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:13 am 
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Zikur wrote:
changing cb numbers would be a tweak. thats not to say other classes dont need one.

I wouldn't be opposed to tweaking the CB values, I bumped them up to 4% rather than the proposed 1% because I thought that CB was getting hit too hard. Doubling it to 8% would probably even be fine.

The real kick though is Drain Effectiveness and Physical Resistance. Both of those are set too high. Amp has been well re-balanced now so that it isn't all consuming, so the values on both of these properties for bosses should be brought down as well. That will significantly alter the melee experience.

Poison is an interesting one - it was ramped up in light of several complaints from people who didn't understand the strategic value (ability to do consistent dmg with safety) and just ran calculations on DPS. Now that it is well understood, it is being very well utilized. I still want to ensure that it isn't completely blown late game before really getting behind any serious nerfs. The removal of Skillers should have a very large impact on poison builds.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:29 am 
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Quote:
The removal of Skillers should have a very large impact on poison builds.
That's actually interesting. Last ladder w/o any skiller I did like 240k psn dmg @ 93lvl. With lowered trang and crafts moved to belt he'd prolly do 200k... ye, now add shards and I'm back. PSN wasn't touched this patch. I'm not even saying about poison amazon, that's completely joke. For fun hunting shards I went for the most favorite end game phys-cold immune boss - duriel with summoner nec/fire dru and psn zon. Oak in corner, spam blades + DEC (nn lr) and 120k plague with titan's revenge(that's 70lvl wpn iirc). Took like 2min to kill him w/o ANY problems(playing 3 chars at the same moment).


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:18 am 
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Me, Kev and Blade did norm baal last night (hc) with a conc barb (me), hydra sorc (Kev) and Blade as a summon druid.
It went just as it should imo, took a while but we did get it done eventually. However, as Blue said. The phys res and leech res should be toned down just a small notch. That would make me as the barb doing more of an difference on bosses.

And btw, Lawbringer was a key element to getting it done.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:28 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to tweaking the CB values, I bumped them up to 4% rather than the proposed 1% because I thought that CB was getting hit too hard. Doubling it to 8% would probably even be fine.

I was looking thru the uniques and noticed how few items even have it. I know it was supposed to be on some 2h weaps, but some such as doombringer and titan blade had it completely removed. Yes, barbs can wield them 1h, but other classes cannot. I think going to 8% would make a nice difference and give melee back at least some power they need. The loss of both cb and ds combined to really hurt them.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:40 am 

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Let me express my my feeling about this patch after playing it for a while on one european diablo2 dedicated server (I am before NM baal now):

1. amazing job with graphics (items look...) realy big job tuning properties on all items
2. good idea with STR bonus to dmg, CB nerf is good also, only too big now.
3. nobody plays melee. if anyone starts, wants to be rushed because it is painfull and not fun anymore. every melee stoped playing in normal. they are fragile now and dealing low dmg. I do not want to say it is impossible to play with them, simply it is not so fun it used to be and there is no reason to have them in party. every necro is better tank, even decoy is too. might I be wrong thinking they need bigger dmg and better items for surviving (I know about diamonds in armor ;) )
4. there are many builds realy weak so why not tune their skills to be viable (not overpowered) it is not fun to see mainly poison builds.
5. thinking that poison was nerfed with removing of skillers is funny, they were (and are) most powerfull and safest to play even without single skiller in inventory. Do you want to increase HU difficulty for all players? just nerf poison builds so they are not able to kill even normal fallen and you will see that except top players nobody will get to hell (maybe even nightmare) Situation in HU was (and now even more is) that if you have poison char with group, everybody is trying to entertain a boss or doing nothing while poison kills without any danger. HU players = poison lovers, very overpowered. Most powerfull build absolutly untouched with the patch and all items restrictions. less MDR, absorbs... is something they are barely missing because they do not suffer from counterbacks so much.
6. I read boner feedback from DOD. he wrote his necro was doing 16k dmg at normal diablo so it should be nerfed. well I do not know where his items came from but people usually do not have luck for top items at every level. for example my boner at normal diablo had 3k spear and at nightmare diablo had 8k. problem is also if you do not have optimized party you have to do things you normaly would not. for example my boner was tanking with blades, walls because nobody else could. And not always you are in perfect party, usually you are happy you are in any party (on less populated servers). I am trying to say if you playing untwinked and have a bad luck with items, unoptimized party, then you can barely maintain resists, MDR, tanking, not to get to top dmg. I could farm items for a month in act2 -3 normal to get better but where would my party be at that time? I could have better dmg, but then I would not have resists and DR and would not survive a hit.
always if you test build you should have this in your mind. there are worse players also not just TOP 10. (hoping this is mod for more than 10 palyers) and I realy do not care that there are amazing items for lvl 90+ if I have problem to get to nightmare. now I am talking generaly not about my boner.

Anyway, there is no doubt about big effort to make this patch only if you could tune what is not as good as it should. Maybe in next patch. At least melee +, poison -, make more viable builds, not just 5-6. more MDR on viable items so it is not always choice between dmg and survivability becouse you should deal dmg and survive at the same time. I am not dreaming about OP items just reasonable.
sorry for my bad english.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:55 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Poison is an interesting one - it was ramped up in light of several complaints from people who didn't understand the strategic value (ability to do consistent dmg with safety) and just ran calculations on DPS. Now that it is well understood, it is being very well utilized. I still want to ensure that it isn't completely blown late game before really getting behind any serious nerfs. The removal of Skillers should have a very large impact on poison builds.

As far as I can see poison builds are currently excellent at both PVM and bosses, because of high damage and summons, even with subpar gear and without any skillers.


Last edited by Draped on Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:31 am 
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Soulmancer wrote:
the bulk of melee builds that depend on physical are at a huge disadvantage versus bosses at the moment when compared to long range, poison or casters.


The game isn't impossible with melee only, its actually the only type of build that provides some challenge with the masses of + skills on everything.

Items were buffed instead of being nerfed. Look at topaz craft armor as an example, +2 skills and all pierce... yes plz for any caster at all. Skill armour with 4 sockets is... You get the same on a level 70 armor this patch as a level 92 armor last patch. Items should have been nerfed instead of buffed
Due to the masses of + skills on everything, all casters are sitting as if they have 10 skillers at all times. Marrowalks... 8 to bone spear, from a single pair of boots. Caster craft boots (available at level 40) completely blow silkweaves out of the water, why would anyone even bother using silkweaves now. It was good before because the only thing they had was +1 skill. Now you just craft a pair of boots (cheaper and faster than finding silkweaves) and get resist, fcr max mana% etc. etc. etc.

IIRC when melee items were being buffed, there were a number of people complaining that they were gonna be overpowered...

All the skill pierce was lowered but passive pierce has been increased i'd say. No use having skill pierce lowered when you can get 150%pierce in hell anyway. They should have both been lowered. I actually have a friend who plays barbs only because casters have it too easy.

Long story short, too many + skills around on equip at the min (garb is also better than viper wtf remove the skill from it) and too much passive pierce available.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:35 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Items were buffed instead of being nerfed. Look at topaz craft armor as an example, +2 skills and all pierce... yes plz for any caster at all. Skill armour with 4 sockets is... You get the same on a level 70 armor this patch as a level 92 armor last patch. Items should have been nerfed instead of buffed/

Yes and no. Most items were nerfed defensively and buffed offensively. Most of the feedback that I got was that characters didn't have any fun when they did low damage, so I worked to keep that in place.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Due to the masses of + skills on everything, all casters are sitting as if they have 10 skillers at all times.

That is a slight over-exaggeration. +1 skill boots were available last season in the form of silkweaves/SM boots, so caster craft boots are a wash there. There is an extra +1 available on belts now, and an additional +1 on armor - so there is only a change of +2 to all skills available to everyone. That's a far cry from saying it is like having +10 skillers.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Marrowalks... 8 to bone spear, from a single pair of boots.
Marrowwalks had +8 to bone spear last season, I didn't change that. Might be interesting for people to look through critterkiller.arimyth.com to see what really changed - his site still has the information from last season up.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
IIRC when melee items were being buffed, there were a number of people complaining that they were gonna be overpowered...

Melee items were significantly buffed. First there is the large str dmg increase. Next, pick some and compare them:
Boneslayer Blade (lvl58) - previously 250% ED/25% IAS. now 450% ED/40% IAS.
Vile Husk (lvl52) - previously 200% ED/25% IAS, now 375%/30%
Azurewrath (lvl90) previously 400%, now 450-500% ED
Grandfather (lvl92) previously 400% ED, now 500% ED
The list goes on and on for NM and Hell class items. Give them a look and you will see significant improvements, designed to offset the reduction in life/resists & crushing blow.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
All the skill pierce was lowered but passive pierce has been increased i'd say. No use having skill pierce lowered when you can get 150%pierce in hell anyway. They should have both been lowered. I actually have a friend who plays barbs only because casters have it too easy.

Where was passive pierce increased that dramatically? The ONLY examples that I can think of are staves, which received a boost to encourage their use of the more safer shield/orb combo and Zod words. Otherwise, gems did not change and pierce was not notably altered. I don't see this dramatic change you are talking about reflected in the items.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Long story short, too many + skills around on equip at the min (garb is also better than viper wtf remove the skill from it) and too much passive pierce available.

Normal is designed to be easy, so they get easy, powerful items like garb. Those were changes that Soulmancer put in to place in 1.21z and despite rumors that everyone likes to be say, I wasn't interested in redesigning his mod, just making modifications. I respected the clear changes he put in place and didn't undo them.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:08 am 
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My last post was just a rant really. The problem is passive pierce and low cooldown on blades. Deadly strike is too low for classes that dont get crit on a passive. Offensive buffs also act as a defensive buff though, if you can kill stuff twice as fast you dont get hit nearly as much.

+5 on the 95's is too high IMO, +3 on the 85's and 95s would have been enough i think. +3 on templars too, it was already the armor of choice for any caster. Maybe +1 on ms topaz armor's at the most would be nice too. + reduce all facets to 2-4% pierce

Returning the deadly strike values will help a hell of alot though, 40% on ama crash and her passive critical makes her deal alot more damage

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:20 am 
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Quote:
Long story short, too many + skills around on equip at the min (garb is also better than viper wtf remove the skill from it) and too much passive pierce available.
How removing massive +skills and passive pierce would affect melee phys? deadly nerfed, amp removed(noone uses it really), cb removed - it exist only on wpns no one uses, or 90+ which you find when it's too late. Keep doing more fireworks with skills, making zeal sorcs possible and nerf amp and deadly to 1% so that will help everyone. BTW. I don't play HC and this mod isn't built around HC so it doesn't matter if hc teams do 7 tanks and one amp casters and gangbang fallens with ss doing 100 dmg on hell.
Quote:
+5 on the 95's is too high IMO, +3 on the 85's and 95s would have been enough i think. +3 on templars too, it was already the armor of choice for any caster.
IIRC skillers were removed so ppl actually play game not farm tundra/roll gcs, so common uniqs and end game were buffed to fit that hole between skill tiers. Since when templars was the armor of choice for casters(!!). Only chars used it were rabies, light/psn zons and they're not casters. Sorcs used war or enigma for massive dex/str/def/life per kill etc etc, same with necs.


Last edited by Steel on Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:24 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
My last post was just a rant really. The problem is passive pierce and low cooldown on blades.

Blades might have been over the top - dunno. They were unchanged this patch. See my comments above on passive pierce.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Deadly strike is too low for classes that dont get crit on a passive.

I disagree with this although I recognize it is an unpopular view. Having over 50% deadly available on items negates the value of Amazon & Barb critical strike skills and does not provide a distinction in the classes. If you keep Deadly strike off of weapons it turns Amazons in to the masters of their weapon classes and Barbarians the weapon master of a particular weapon. Without weapon mastery a Barb is just a big wad of vitality - no flavor. With weapon mastery he actually out damages other classes in a particular weapon. That to me is a worthwhile goal.

As for the other melee classes - Druids have unparrelled speed (WW may be just as fast, but doesn't really compare) and access to incredibly powerful complimentary elemental skills (fireclaws, frostbite, rabies) that make them distinctive. Giving them the same bonus as Barbs (high deadly strike) just seems over the top and intrudes on what a Barbarian can do.

Paladins have the best resists and absorbs in the game with shields that can easily get +60 all res with minimal effort. Combine this with another +50% from Salvation and they have extreme defensive capacity. They also have prayer and lets not forget Hammers to set them apart. Shields are their distinctive factor and no one compares to them in this regard. Giving them deadly strike on top doesn't seem consistent with the character and once again intrudes on the barbarian's "gig". It would be like allow Barbs to have good shields.


PureRage-DoD wrote:
+5 on the 95's is too high IMO, +3 on the 85's and 95s would have been enough i think. +3 on templars too, it was already the armor of choice for any caster. Maybe +1 on ms topaz armor's at the most would be nice too. + reduce all facets to 2-4% pierce

Perhaps - but remember there was a LOT of opposition to removing skill grand charms, so I was being rather conservative. Also keep in mind that sometimes changing to +5 was a nerf in skills. Take Dragonscale for example. Even though it only had +3 pala skills, it also had +3 combat skills - making it a +6 Blessed Hammer shield. It is now only a +5 BH shield.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Returning the deadly strike values will help a hell of alot though, 40% on ama crash and her passive critical makes her deal alot more damage

I don't think this is the correct way to go. Decrease Drain Effectiveness on bosses to allow characters to actually leech and reduce the rampant overuse of Physical Resistances.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:13 pm 
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why not start blades with a cd and as you invest points you reduce the cd? hard points only of course, i think there would be a lot less of an issue if a necro had to invest 20 points into the skill to get it to tank nearly as well. this also takes away their ability to solo early because if they level blades they for go increasing their damage.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:38 pm 
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steel wrote:
How removing massive +skills and passive pierce would affect melee phys?

I never said it would effect melee's did I? the point I was making was, melee's are fine, the casters are out of control.

steel wrote:
BTW. I don't play HC and this mod isn't built around HC so it doesn't matter if hc teams do 7 tanks and one amp casters and gangbang fallens with ss doing 100 dmg on hell.

not really sure what hc or sc has to do with it for a start but if you are struggling to kill fallens with a melee then your melee is garbage and you should stick to casters instead. Who said anything about 7 tanks? I play in duo's or trio's. Melee duo of my zon and a barb is cruising through wsk, destroyed ancients and are having no problems at all. what's the issue?

steel wrote:
Sorcs used war or enigma for massive dex/str/def/life per kill etc etc, same with necs.

lmao, yeh because having a little extra life on a class that should never be hit anyway is more usefull than 40% pierce 24% skill damage and an extra skill point. Why bother with some extra hp when you can kill stuff before it even gets near you?

Blue_Myriddn wrote:
I don't think this is the correct way to go. Decrease Drain Effectiveness on bosses to allow characters to actually leech and reduce the rampant overuse of Physical Resistances.

Being able to leech against a boss makes no impact on damage and being able to leech from a boss just means its a click and hold affair for a tank.

Quote:
Even though it only had +3 pala skills, it also had +3 combat skills - making it a +6 Blessed Hammer shield. It is now only a +5 BH shield.

but they also get an extra 2 to conc to offset it, and have an extra skill from the belt and gloves

Quote:
Paladins have the best resists and absorbs in the game with shields that can easily get +60 all res with minimal effort. Combine this with another +50% from Salvation and they have extreme defensive capacity. They also have prayer and lets not forget Hammers to set them apart. Shields are their distinctive factor and no one compares to them in this regard. Giving them deadly strike on top doesn't seem consistent with the character and once again intrudes on the barbarian's "gig". It would be like allow Barbs to have good shields.

defensively they are fine but having no chance of doing double damage means they cant kill anything with a 1 hander anyway. Barbs already have access to good shields, just craft one and gem it (one for each element if you like).
Hammers are a caster type, and prayer still don't improve the pallys damage

I'd like to try a melee pally too but I have a couple of things at the min that folks are saying are underpowered that I'm testing like my hydra sorc and melee zon (both of those btw are completely fine so far)

@ Zikur: a static 5 sec cooldown would be fine IMO and zons decoy needs a nerf too

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:47 pm 
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if it helps - my 1h melee paladin has been soaring through the game so far. Norm was a breeze (no surprise), and so far A1 NM hasn't been a problem either. Haven't played him for a while as I have been much happier playing Black opps recently than dealing with turds like Kwikster who rant about me being lazy while they do absolutely nothing for the community.

No matter what - I'd say things should run for a *least* a month and even better 2-3 months before serious changes are made. The patch is still new

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Black ops on the ps3 ftw. It's eating into my testing time too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:56 pm 
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single player sux balls on that game, but man the multiplayer action is very cool. I am pushing up to get a good snipe weapon and try that out. So far though my low lvl dude has been having fun with steady-aim on the famas. Pretty solid for the lvl15-20 range that I am at now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:49 pm 
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lmao, yeh because having a little extra life on a class that should never be hit anyway is more usefull than 40% pierce 24% skill damage and an extra skill point. Why bother with some extra hp when you can kill stuff before it even gets near you?
to precise - I don't play sorc(did 3 whole time playing HU - light with templar 94lvl delted, did meteo 81lvl deleted, did fnova 95 with templar, liked it but ladder ended), I only say what ppl on realm do/did.
Anyway it's Dead Space 2 time! Heard it's about 9h on casual, hope on impossible mode it's 100h+.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:18 pm 
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a static 5 sec cd would make them ineffective why not have one that decreases with points invested?
maybe add a synergy bonus too to make the cd lower as well.
not every party should need a life bulb jugging juvs in order to do their tanking. having oak bo and decoy and recasting bo on it takes a party and planning. the teams that can assemble such a set up shouldnt be punished for it. the game gets easier with the more players you add, unless thats going to change anytime soon.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:38 pm 
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If you max them, they last way more than 5 secs anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:13 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
if it helps - my 1h melee paladin has been soaring through the game so far. Norm was a breeze (no surprise), and so far A1 NM hasn't been a problem either. Haven't played him for a while as I have been much happier playing Black opps recently than dealing with turds like Kwikster who rant about me being lazy while they do absolutely nothing for the community.
I do nothing? Hmmm I posed ideas and suggestions before the release of the patch, admittedly I came late to the party. My fault I didn't pay closer attention to the pre-release ideas while I was playing it thru as a newbie. My bad. No, what I did do, however, was attempt to provide a more critical analysis based on what I knew and what was proposed. After a bit of time I did indeed start reading thru proposed changes, and after a bit started weighing in on them, usually got berated for being new and weighing in. I know enough of how to play the mod to form a good opinion of both. The fact you're playing CoD BO tells me you have little faith in your own changes. As for lazy, I have 7 chars atm in various stages of development working on discerning how the changes are playing out. Can you say that? In fact, I'm getting ready to start a fourth melee char just to test how it plays out.

blue_myriddn wrote:
No matter what - I'd say things should run for a *least* a month and even better 2-3 months before serious changes are made. The patch is still new
The patch has indeed been out for a month. Yet, I see no HC teams past hell baal, why is this? I see a good number of dead HC chars on the ladder. Perhaps it is that they have been unable to sustain an effort because of these patch changes. Don't give me the BS the patch is still new. Many of my friends on here are vets of this mod, several since it was new, most don't like the patch. Too much was taken away with little given back.
Soulmancer wrote:
I did actually state this that I believed the extensive nerf to CB and amp damage would make melee fighters severely gimped vs bosses... Given they're much more at danger of dying then long range or poison builds. Those who worked on the patch disagreed with me. I kept trying to tell people that small changes have a dramatic effect on balancing. I modded HU for 5 years and know this well; some felt they knew better regarding balancing, but the bulk of melee builds that depend on physical are at a huge disadvantage versus bosses at the moment when compared to long range, poison or casters.
I have to agree with Terry here. I have run alongside many melee chars and seen the effects. Playing a few melee chars I'm experiencing those effects first hand. Without a source of CB melees have to do huge dmg numbers and risk being im'd by certain bosses. The risk vs reward isn't worth the effort for many. Caster, especially poison builds, are the dominate classes now.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:34 pm 
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The patch has indeed been out for a month. Yet, I see no HC teams past hell baal, why is this? I see a good number of dead HC chars on the ladder. Perhaps it is that they have been unable to sustain an effort because of these patch changes.

There are always lots of dead chars on HC thats part of the fun!
The reason there are only a few people in hell on HC is we still have the full antirush instead of the watered down version. That and when someone dies the whole team just makes a new character.

Edit: poison has always been the dominant force (400k + rabies anyone?) It's extremely hard to balance poison due to the way it works.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:43 pm 
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what about spirit wolfs 5 sec cd on them is longer than dires

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:51 pm 
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I'm curious to know exactly what role melee is intended to play in this patch. They're certainly not farming characters, and they're certainly not characters that excel at killing bosses.

Is their role intended to be solely a character that stands in front of a boss? That's the current role they are in, but I would like to know if that was the intended path to take melee.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:59 pm 
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To be frank, HC was never meant to be balanced for HU.... Priority was always SC, which included numerous ways to kill you, surviving HU to the point where you can take out hell baal is a feat very few would be able to accomplish; I'm not one of them, nor are most and that is as it should be.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:13 pm 
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nice we get to do it now too!
I really have to agree with terry here.
hahaha
allthebadsmad?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:23 am 
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Abominae wrote:
They're certainly not farming characters, and they're certainly not characters that excel at killing bosses.

say what? My barb is GREAT at farming gear. If he goes back a few levels, he tears things up and has hork to get double drop. With the monster HP, you can kill bosses very easy once you get that power gear.

If you mean farming Hell quest bosses, well don't expect many balanced builds to be able to do that. Hell is supposed to be hard as hell.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:39 am 

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kwikster wrote:
The patch has indeed been out for a month. Yet, I see no HC teams past hell baal, why is this? I see a good number of dead HC chars on the ladder. Perhaps it is that they have been unable to sustain an effort because of these patch changes.


Should have a few guardians by the end of the week, maybe in a couple days if we don't get lazy. My party has had little to no trouble getting through the game. It's just pretty hard to advance quickly when you only get a handful of hours where everyone in your party is online. Overall the gameplay has changed very little IMO, all we did was go from using melee, hammers or poison vs the big bosses to using just poison. A1-3 bosses were generally done with meteor and a lil' melee, A4-5 with poison(rabies in particular).


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:01 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
say what? My barb is GREAT at farming gear. If he goes back a few levels, he tears things up and has hork to get double drop. With the monster HP, you can kill bosses very easy once you get that power gear.

If you mean farming Hell quest bosses, well don't expect many balanced builds to be able to do that. Hell is supposed to be hard as hell.


I suppose I should rephrase that. They're certainly not trash killing characters.
Most of the farming that can be done solo in this game is done by running through areas that will drop significant items relevant to your level, not by going back to previous places that will drop items that are no longer relevant or usable by your character.

The majority of elemental characters have absolutely no problem clearing trash solo, this isn't true for a melee. Whirlwind, arguably the best melee skill in the game, is still pretty bad for trash. If Whirlwind, the most AoE intensive melee skill is bad, where does that leave all other melee characters?

If I'm not a significant force in clearing areas of the game with or without my party and I'm not a significant force when it comes to team boss fights, what is the incentive to roll a melee? What role do you fulfill as a melee in this game anymore?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:02 am 

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drrod wrote:
Should have a few guardians by the end of the week, maybe in a couple days if we don't get lazy. My party has had little to no trouble getting through the game. It's just pretty hard to advance quickly when you only get a handful of hours where everyone in your party is online. Overall the gameplay has changed very little IMO, all we did was go from using melee, hammers or poison vs the big bosses to using just poison. A1-3 bosses were generally done with meteor and a lil' melee, A4-5 with poison(rabies in particular).

Kinda makes my point on melee. Everyone has gone to the idea of "poison is king". Yes, I understand poison is difficult to balance, but it's so op it's almost laughable. No longer is melee viable in any capacity other than an also-ran. Poison char take less overall skill to build and run, if you even grasp the fundamentals of this game. Most melee builds require a lot more skill to even be competent on, let alone good at. With the current state of melee it's almost like why build one? At the very least with even 8% cb they would have some value other than damage absorbers.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Abominae wrote:
They're certainly not farming characters, and they're certainly not characters that excel at killing bosses.

say what? My barb is GREAT at farming gear. If he goes back a few levels, he tears things up and has hork to get double drop. With the monster HP, you can kill bosses very easy once you get that power gear.

If you mean farming Hell quest bosses, well don't expect many balanced builds to be able to do that. Hell is supposed to be hard as hell.
Yes, Blue hell is supposed to be hard. There is no dispute of that fact. No one is saying to make a ww barb the ultimate one stop kill all machine. All we want is a reasonable amount of killing power to make melee's viable again. The power gear you speak of is only in terms of raw dmg output. Not factored into that equation is physical resistance. So even once you get that high-end gear the value is reduced for that reason. Amp has been nerfed as well which further reduces a physical chars ability to dmg mobs/bosses. Say you're able to reach say 50k physical dmg, for example, hell diablo has 90% physical resist. Now that dmg of 50k is reduced to 5k. At lvl 20 amp has an effect of 50%, which drops diablos phys res to 40%. On the same 50k dmg output you net 20k. With rabies as an example the druid hits once with rabies and switches to something like fury more than doubling his dmg output over the same time span. Depending on a source of elemental dmg for a melee is not the answer. Neither is limiting cb to a select few weapons as it leaves little room to choose from when preparing a melee char. Excluded from most options is a melee pally, if they choose to get cb, they lose their shield. Therefore, smite is not an option, and they also lose the dr given by hard points in that skill.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:28 am 
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I'll only add that my last (and only) ww barb last ladder had 48k max dmg with 6%cb(blood gloves) and was doing good dmg with amp, without it he... Once nec died on hell andy(I was like 96lvl helping friend) I had to use nearly 10 juvs to take last 1/100 of her hp, I thought she'd regen or I'd die, dunno wtf but it's kinda broken without amp. But nec returned from town and we finished her off. Fuck CB or deadly, bring back 40%+ amp on items.
Ofc I'm noob so prolly I sucked with barbs, so how could I know.
Edit: Oh, I remember Purerage said act bosses had absorb so elemental dmg wasn't that good, but he forgot to add, they have 75% phys res in files and additional red-dmg50% from uniqueitem they all hold... Hint it makes melee completely useless without 50%amp.
Quote:
Therefore, smite is not an option, and they also lose the dr given by hard points in that skill.
My 20smite, 20prayer,20holyshield max dr max dr% smiter is in a3 nm so far doing ok, I only stand there, smite bosses and get heal from prayer/medi amu so it's ok as a tank. Prolly I'll get wpn with 6 bers and multibox my summoner for 54% amp. Funny build I must say.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:24 am 
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Edit: Oh, I remember Purerage said act bosses had absorb so elemental dmg wasn't that good, but he forgot to add, they have 75% phys res in files and additional red-dmg50% from uniqueitem they all hold... Hint it makes melee completely useless without 50%amp.

no because that would make them all phys immune... Have you looked at the items I'm referring to?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:40 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
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Edit: Oh, I remember Purerage said act bosses had absorb so elemental dmg wasn't that good, but he forgot to add, they have 75% phys res in files and additional red-dmg50% from uniqueitem they all hold... Hint it makes melee completely useless without 50%amp.

no because that would make them all phys immune... Have you looked at the items I'm referring to?

Ofc I didn't, why would I.
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/2603/xxxwu.jpg Is there any other uniq bxx bosses use? Or only you possess knowledge to look into files? huh. If red-dmg% isn't working then ok.
Edit - I ran to andy hell with cry barb - After 3min of using skill ImageIsn't she immune?
Edit2: ran 2nd time, added 63lvl amp (40%), this time I started to do dmg... minimal...
Edit3: I ran with uber pimped 70k col blade for her. 0 dmg after wwing 30 secs. One final conclusion - Andy is phys immune, if she is, then every other bosses are. No amp = fail, gz.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:24 am 
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Sorry my bad, i just looked through my notes. The cap on the stat used by that property is 50% (the well known cap)? if the phys resistance of bosses is OVER 50% then the red-dmg% is ignored, if the boss has 75% phys res and is hit with a 75% amp (for example) they will lower the boss to 0, BUT that lets the damage resist from the item kick in so they still have 50% resist.

On the other side, 40% absorb acts like 80% resistance (unlowerable resistance).

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Or only you possess knowledge to look into files? huh.

point me to whare I said please.

Quote:
Hint it makes melee completely useless without 50%amp.

wrong, if they have 75%phys res,they need 25% pierce (before, a necro with 75% amp was still only dropping the boss to 50%) even 75% amp would still leave the boss with 50% phys res

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:28 am 
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Steel wrote:
Edit3: I ran with uber pimped 70k col blade for her. 0 dmg after wwing 30 secs. One final conclusion - Andy is phys immune, if she is, then every other bosses are. No amp = fail, gz.

This is where I believe the real problem is. Phys res rates were jacked far too high making Amp necessary. That is an unbalanced approach.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:33 am 
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Phys res rates were jacked far too high making Amp necessary. That is an unbalanced approach.
it can be fixed server side - just remove red-dmg% from boss charms(uniques.txt ->bxX item code) or lower a bit(need testing).
Quote:
point me to whare I said please.
overreacted, sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:34 am 
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You all should try using lawbringer on switch for melees, lvl 16 decrep helps alot.

But with that said, still have the problem of too high phys immunity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:40 am 
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I do agree phys resist rates are too high. I assume the 50% was added to the boss item to counter crushing blow (not such an issue now). ditching the damage resist on the item the bosses use as steel says use would prevent this odd stacking effect that is going on

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:12 pm 
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Here's an idea, lets remove all the ridiculous physical resistance from bosses that aren't set to physical immune, and then lets remove amp and decrepify and lower drain effectiveness to balance it.

What does this do? Now melees dont have to rely on amp dmg to be less then useless, and now that opens up item slots/party makeups.

Now we dont have to have a necromancer in every party just for some stupid fucking curse that helps unbalance the unbalances of said balance.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:15 pm 
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what?
thats a slippery slope towards removing all life buffs.
lets all play the same char with no party dynamics.
removes debuffs and you have to remove buffs too.
think.
please.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
what?
thats a slippery slope towards removing all life buffs.
lets all play the same char with no party dynamics.
removes debuffs and you have to remove buffs too.
think.
please.


Well we all play psn necro/zon neways soooo

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:26 pm 
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and zons have debuffs assasins have debuf and buffs pally has debuff/buff barb has debuf/buff necro has debuf sorc has buffs druids have buffs.

they all add something different, ya kno?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:38 am 
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Zikur wrote:
and zons have debuffs assasins have debuf and buffs pally has debuff/buff barb has debuf/buff necro has debuf sorc has buffs druids have buffs.

they all add something different, ya kno?


yes theres buffs, but buffs dont easily kill bosses, especially the hell act bosses that have physical immune.

Poison does

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:47 am 

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Well after reading all of this I had to admit this is a good example how to destroy any mod. Change a few things, forgetting the others. And it was tested right?

Steel wrote:
it can be fixed server side...
And what about other fans of the mod playing on different servers or even trying impossible to play single MP version? There should be some 1.3b so we all can play melee again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Sarevok wrote:
Well after reading all of this I had to admit this is a good example how to destroy any mod. Change a few things, forgetting the others. And it was tested right?

Steel wrote:
it can be fixed server side...
And what about other fans of the mod playing on different servers or even trying impossible to play single MP version? There should be some 1.3b so we all can play melee again.

I don't think you read it very carefully then. You may have noticed the large number of people playing on the realm and enjoying themselves.

You can play melee without a problem.

As for other servers, we don't support any server but the official arimyth version. I am sorry if people are setting up satellite systems, but that simply isn't within the scope of our concern. If you want the best Hell Unleashed experience, you need to play it here.

As for the single player version, that should be released shortly.

I don't think there will be a version 1.3b for a while as that would likely involve a ladder reset. There are some great comments being raised lately and I think that we could do another set of balance adjustments over the next few months (these things take time). That is Soulmancer's call of course. I know he is eagerly working on the Soul Spectrum Project for Torchlight 2 (viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2881), so perhaps he will let me have a second crack at a balance patch. This time rather than addressing items, I may put some work in to skills and boss attributes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:01 pm 

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I don't think many people will object these first 2 months of the new patch as an "unofficial beta test".

Unfortunately this is how the world works, nothing can never be 100% great without product testing and product knowledge.

Don't think of this as a failed attempt at a patch, look more at an opportunity to make something better that will attract more people.

I would enjoy seeing people express less criticism, and more offer more reward for trying to keep this classic game going.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Zikur wrote:
and zons have debuffs assasins have debuf and buffs pally has debuff/buff barb has debuf/buff necro has debuf sorc has buffs druids have buffs.

they all add something different, ya kno?


yes theres buffs, but buffs dont easily kill bosses, especially the hell act bosses that have physical immune.

Poison does


so your argument went from
OH NOES REMOVES CURSES SO NOBODY NEEDS AMP
to
buffs dont kill bosses, poison does.

i dont get what ur getting at.
if it was balanced around no amp, melee's would be in a worse state than they are now. if they didnt need amp to solo bosses what would stop them from solo'ing the game? perhaps some of these numbers can be reduced on the phys res side but eliminating curses and making the support necro class dead is rather retarded.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
Rasta wrote:
Zikur wrote:
and zons have debuffs assasins have debuf and buffs pally has debuff/buff barb has debuf/buff necro has debuf sorc has buffs druids have buffs.

they all add something different, ya kno?


yes theres buffs, but buffs dont easily kill bosses, especially the hell act bosses that have physical immune.

Poison does


so your argument went from
OH NOES REMOVES CURSES SO NOBODY NEEDS AMP
to
buffs dont kill bosses, poison does.

i dont get what ur getting at.
if it was balanced around no amp, melee's would be in a worse state than they are now. if they didnt need amp to solo bosses what would stop them from solo'ing the game? perhaps some of these numbers can be reduced on the phys res side but eliminating curses and making the support necro class dead is rather retarded.


it was just a suggestion on how to balance melees. Sorry for not being fucking Einstein.

But the state of melees right now are terrible. You should be able to do at least hell andy with a fully geared melee (my barb for example) to do it i need to get a necro in the game with me JUST for 1 spell becasue the current amp on items is too weak to break something blue didn't intend to happen.

You can balance around no amp.

Consider we take out amp and decrep and set bosses to a healthy %DR, maybe like 80-85% DR. Then reduce their leech. Then look what happens, melees cant 'solo the game'.

We already lost crushing blow, the fact that I ahve to bring 6 smith forge runes along with 300 juvs to kill a hell act boss on a fully geared barb is kind of awkward, especialyl because a meteor sorc with the same resources as my barb can do andy in like 30 seconds.

talking about soloing the game.... POISON NECROS CAN SOLO THE GAME ENOUGH SAID.

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Last edited by Rasta on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:08 pm 
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And what about other fans of the mod playing on different servers or even trying impossible to play single MP version? There should be some 1.3b so we all can play melee again.
They can change it themselves? huh... They even can add formula 2heal pots = zod. For solo edition, which isn't released yet, it can be added in "to do list". Anyway noone said melee isn't possible to play. I stated that last ladder I used barb with 6%cb only and he was OK, but needed amp, I could get amp from many sources, but now it's reduces to 26% making it nec exclusive vs bosses - not only act bosses, as you can see charm has even bloodraven(or I looked wrong) but not that powerful.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
And what about other fans of the mod playing on different servers or even trying impossible to play single MP version? There should be some 1.3b so we all can play melee again.
They can change it themselves? huh... They even can add formula 2heal pots = zod. For solo edition, which isn't released yet, it can be added in "to do list". Anyway noone said melee isn't possible to play. I stated that last ladder I used barb with 6%cb only and he was OK, but needed amp, I could get amp from many sources, but now it's reduces to 26% making it nec exclusive vs bosses - not only act bosses, as you can see charm has even bloodraven(or I looked wrong) but not that powerful.


to be honest im not exaclty sure what this charm and the boss Physical resists do, but all I can say is that my barb with my amp from atams couldnt take hell andy, and my barb is pretty strong.

To get to a5 hell i felt like i was leeching off of psn necros since i didnt do jack shit to act bosses, fuck, i couldnt even tank them better then necros and their spiritblade spam.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Zikur wrote:
[
so your argument went from
OH NOES REMOVES CURSES SO NOBODY NEEDS AMP
to
buffs dont kill bosses, poison does.

i dont get what ur getting at.
if it was balanced around no amp, melee's would be in a worse state than they are now. if they didnt need amp to solo bosses what would stop them from solo'ing the game? perhaps some of these numbers can be reduced on the phys res side but eliminating curses and making the support necro class dead is rather retarded.


it was just a suggestion on how to balance melees. Sorry for not being fucking Einstein.

But the state of melees right now are terrible. You should be able to do at least hell andy with a fully geared melee (my barb for example) to do it i need to get a necro in the game with me JUST for 1 spell becasue the current amp on items is too weak to break something blue didn't intend to happen.

You can balance around no amp.

Consider we take out amp and decrep and set bosses to a healthy %DR, maybe like 80-85% DR. Then reduce their leech. Then look what happens, melees cant 'solo the game'.

We already lost crushing blow, the fact that I ahve to bring 6 smith forge runes along with 300 juvs to kill a hell act boss on a fully geared barb is kind of awkward, especialyl because a meteor sorc with the same resources as my barb can do andy in like 30 seconds.

talking about soloing the game.... POISON NECROS CAN SOLO THE GAME ENOUGH SAID.

and where does it stop?
should this barb be able to solo duriel? meph? diablo too?
the game can be balanced around amp too.
the moment you can slay bosses just as good as when you have a necro is when there is a problem.
i dont see where leech means anything when you just admitted you bring 300 juvs to a fight. you need life leech and 300 juvs to stay alive? or just that purple drank?
as for psn necro's soloing I dont know anything on the subject but blinky was saying that even with buffs he can die going in for strike. so without them i cant imagine it going better. of course i havent tried the build for myself as of yet.

ps when did we add a quote box limit

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:23 pm 
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I think that Amp is good now - it is a SUPPORT curse to make melee characters more important.

The problem is the game was previously "balanced" around Amp being a necessity by giving bosses incredibly high %DR through the charm. I think we all knew that no amp = no damage and that is why it was so prolific in game use.

The solution is to re-balance bosses around the new amp and Crushing blow reductions and fortunately this can largely be done via uniques.txt in the charms that bosses are equipped with. Makes it easy for some single player tests. My *guess* right now is that if you drop the current value which ranges from 45-55% %DR down to 5-15% %DR you will find a game that is much more palatable to melee characters

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
Rasta wrote:
Zikur wrote:
[
so your argument went from
OH NOES REMOVES CURSES SO NOBODY NEEDS AMP
to
buffs dont kill bosses, poison does.

i dont get what ur getting at.
if it was balanced around no amp, melee's would be in a worse state than they are now. if they didnt need amp to solo bosses what would stop them from solo'ing the game? perhaps some of these numbers can be reduced on the phys res side but eliminating curses and making the support necro class dead is rather retarded.


it was just a suggestion on how to balance melees. Sorry for not being fucking Einstein.

But the state of melees right now are terrible. You should be able to do at least hell andy with a fully geared melee (my barb for example) to do it i need to get a necro in the game with me JUST for 1 spell becasue the current amp on items is too weak to break something blue didn't intend to happen.

You can balance around no amp.

Consider we take out amp and decrep and set bosses to a healthy %DR, maybe like 80-85% DR. Then reduce their leech. Then look what happens, melees cant 'solo the game'.

We already lost crushing blow, the fact that I ahve to bring 6 smith forge runes along with 300 juvs to kill a hell act boss on a fully geared barb is kind of awkward, especialyl because a meteor sorc with the same resources as my barb can do andy in like 30 seconds.

talking about soloing the game.... POISON NECROS CAN SOLO THE GAME ENOUGH SAID.

and where does it stop?
should this barb be able to solo duriel? meph? diablo too?
the game can be balanced around amp too.
the moment you can slay bosses just as good as when you have a necro is when there is a problem.
i dont see where leech means anything when you just admitted you bring 300 juvs to a fight. you need life leech and 300 juvs to stay alive? or just that purple drank?
as for psn necro's soloing I dont know anything on the subject but blinky was saying that even with buffs he can die going in for strike. so without them i cant imagine it going better. of course i havent tried the build for myself as of yet.

ps when did we add a quote box limit


blinky's necro isnt fully geared, once u get tanky on a necro u can solo bosses.

Now, about 300 juvs and 6 smith forge runes, the reason i bring 300 juvs is not that i cant tank the boss, its that i dont do any damage and i have to repair my swords 3-4 times before i realized i dont even fucking damage the boss and called it a day.

Atm im working on ways to make my merc survive more then 2 seconds against a boss counter when he casts his shitty firestorm, and then to gear him so he can do decent damage,

maybe i should put on infinity polearm and arduals amulet now?

GG ELEMENTAL BARB IS FTW

This is the same barb that took almost 0 damage from Hell diablo's firestorm and lighting inferno spell.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:32 pm 

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Steel wrote:
Quote:
And what about other fans of the mod playing on different servers or even trying impossible to play single MP version? There should be some 1.3b so we all can play melee again.
They can change it themselves? huh... They even can add formula 2heal pots = zod. For solo edition, which isn't released yet, it can be added in "to do list". Anyway noone said melee isn't possible to play. I stated that last ladder I used barb with 6%cb only and he was OK, but needed amp, I could get amp from many sources, but now it's reduces to 26% making it nec exclusive vs bosses - not only act bosses, as you can see charm has even bloodraven(or I looked wrong) but not that powerful.


right, if everybody has the required knowledge, tools and time. I would preffer one version of HU around the world anyway ;)

about necro+amp: I think if some necro get to hell it is poison one with maxed LR mostly, why would he try to amplify anything if he could kill it alone? :shock:

do not get me wrong, I do not want to argue you, your arguments it this forum are very reasonable, just thinking my way...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:35 pm 
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The solution is to re-balance bosses around the new amp and Crushing blow reductions and fortunately this can largely be done via uniques.txt in the charms that bosses are equipped with. Makes it easy for some single player tests. My *guess* right now is that if you drop the current value which ranges from 45-55% %DR down to 5-15% %DR you will find a game that is much more palatable to melee characters


pretty much this

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My *guess* right now is that if you drop the current value which ranges from 45-55% %DR down to 5-15% %DR you will find a game that is much more palatable to melee characters
Tested, with dmg 40-70 k I was taking like 1/100 of Andy with each blow, with 40%amp it was like 5% per blow.
Edit: Actually she died with 20 blows, but I doubt anyone will ever have 71k ar and 55k avg melee dmg.
Quote:
right, if everybody has the required knowledge, tools and time. I would preffer one version of HU around the world anyway ;)
Uniques.txt Boss/AndyBoss/DuryBoss etc and change dr there, if someone can host game can change that, took me like 30 secs to extract uniques.txt from mpq and change that with any excel-like editor.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
My *guess* right now is that if you drop the current value which ranges from 45-55% %DR down to 5-15% %DR you will find a game that is much more palatable to melee characters
Tested, with dmg 40-70 k I was taking like 1/100 of Andy with each blow, with 40%amp it was like 5% per blow.
Edit: Actually she died with 20 blows, but I doubt anyone will ever have 71k ar and 55k avg melee dmg.
Quote:
right, if everybody has the required knowledge, tools and time. I would preffer one version of HU around the world anyway ;)
Uniques.txt Boss/AndyBoss/DuryBoss etc and change dr there, if someone can host game can change that, took me like 30 secs to extract uniques.txt from mpq and change that with any excel-like editor.


this, a quick fix that solves a big problem, well thought.

Bigger balance issues such as poison and fire sorcs can wait till the next big patch and reset IMO, atm lets just fix melees and see what happens, who knows, maybe they will be too strong?

but ya, soemthing with the current amp is just weird, with the lv 3 amp i have right now its just not enough, bring a necro with 40% amp and it changes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:11 pm 

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I'm liking the idea of adjusting monster phys res down a bit. Would at least make melee have the ability to do a reasonable amount of dmg once again. I think when the melee gear got tweaked it was simply forgotten to adjust monsters phys res to take this into account. Would the change to monster be a server side fix or would a mini update be needed?

I agree for next patch some skills such as poison need a bit more attention. For now lets focus on the melee issue.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Andy hell has 75% res, around 915000 hp on single spawn and 45%dr charm to prevent easy amp abuse - also preventing any phys dmg without curse.
Other bosses have higher phys res and better charm - like baal 99%phys and 50%phys from charm, but almost the same hp as Andariel. Let's say you lower phys red% to 15%(on charm ofc), she'll have 90phys res or around 40 with maxed amp+skills.
Now I dunno average damage on all classes - never played fury dru for example - but I bet we can say 20k WW and 10k fury @ 4fpa are real numbers. WW barb with nec's amp would do around 8k or 16k if deadly kick in - let's say 12k avg, meaning she would require around 140 hits(she blocks 50% attacks), to die. I tested it with 55k avg dmg, 40% amp, her charm was 15%, and died very very fast. Oh, I had 50% deadly as well, druids/dins don't have it natively.


Last edited by Steel on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:24 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
I think when the melee gear got tweaked it was simply forgotten to adjust monsters phys res to take this into account.

The tweaks to melee gear had no impact on this.
The change was in the reduction of Amp - which wasn't something I was involved in.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:36 pm 
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This is turning into quite the balancing act, was it really this bad before?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Now, about 300 juvs and 6 smith forge runes, the reason i bring 300 juvs is not that i cant tank the boss, its that i dont do any damage and i have to repair my swords 3-4 times before i realized i dont even fucking damage the boss and called it a day.

Did you try using berserk?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:53 pm 
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This is turning into quite the balancing act, was it really this bad before?
Before conv/lr and amp were nerfed vs boss acts you could run amp and conv and everyone was happy, with changed values ppl tends to run conv and lr vs every boss to increase/speed up fights - that's because people do trashers/ele boss killers as starting chars - making phys dmg 0 or nearly 0. Change to let's say max 95% phys res will balance that IMO. Melee will do dmg almost the same as elemental users - absorb 50% and high ele res doesn't prevent casters from doing dmg, + there are other sources of lowering res than lr/conv - facets/crystalsword with 6 gems/uniques/crafts/holy auras etc. Melee have only amp. Making only 10% or 20% vs boss isn't something bad, it's one of the way to keep battles long thus hard(or frustrating). Ofc you could balance it with more hp - limit is 2^23 -1 I guess, meaning on max spawn 5x more hp they can have 8,3mil hp.
Quote:
Did you try using berserk?
Funny thing, maxing zerker on frenzy is a very good idea :-) I'd even vote for changing %mag synergy to frenzy to 2 or 1.5 from 1.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
You should be able to do at least hell andy with a fully geared melee (my barb for example)

Do me a favor and tell me what your barb is using and what his dmg is.

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:49 pm 
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He does 10-20kish per swing, double grandfather both socketed with ether stones

tyreals might 4 socketed with diamonds
Halaberds reign 3 celstial spheres
wsg belt
steelrend gloves
gore rider boots
atmas scarab amulet
wisp projector and a crafted +1 barb skills safety ring

im sitting at around 8.5 k hp atm with bo and stuff, i puit about 10 pnts into stamina, maxed sword mastery and frenzy and BO, i didnt max stamina because its not hardcore, the rest is going into double swing

i have about 180 or so base strength, its really hard to wear tyreals and use grandfathers with the strength nerf, the rest is into vit

20k attack rating.

I dont have a problem tanking the boss, my barb can take serious hits, especially since his mdr/pdr is extremely high. the problem is damage.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Good to know- thanks

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RAWR!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:18 am 
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So, why didn't you use berserk on a boss that clearly aint taking dmg while using phys skills?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:08 pm 
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Cuz then I get my ass kicked by the bosses damage

you dont berserk a hell act boss when ur soloing it, then you need 4000 juvs

Im still gona try it though, ill put spirit ward on, some eld runes (those that add block %?) and hope my 5 base dex with some dex charms lets me block?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Utter wrote:
So, why didn't you use berserk on a boss that clearly aint taking dmg while using phys skills?

because its not poison strike, duh.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:40 pm 
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So, why didn't you use berserk on a boss that clearly aint taking dmg while using phys skills?
Using Berserk leaves you open for all attacks if you're frenzy/ww barb and probably not everyone have different gear for such occasions. IE. If I use gear for max def on barb and meet random boss who's phys immune I'm not zerking him until I know it's safe to do this - tanking boss and using zerk w/o shield isn't something safe, it's better to back off and switch to bo bitch - even 20lvl bo for blades/summons is better than dead barb. IMO.
Also you could ask why psn necs don't use 1lvl teeth vs psn immune boss between cursing/casting blades.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:57 pm 
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i was with you up till the teeth comparison.
teeth would do no dmg, we all know this.
where zerk gets its dmg from weapon.
now we're all assuming he is indeed using a weapon.
if hes not perhaps we should look at other avenues to discover his damage issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:38 pm 
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2 seasons I had an IK barb, I killed hell szark the matriarch with zerk, but this was with a healer healing me and a million manapots.

This boss isnt that hard with an ele char, since you can usually dodge her shit, and convert the spider magus to tank for u.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:30 am 
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Rasta wrote:
Cuz then I get my ass kicked by the bosses damage

you dont berserk a hell act boss when ur soloing it, then you need 4000 juvs

Im still gona try it though, ill put spirit ward on, some eld runes (those that add block %?) and hope my 5 base dex with some dex charms lets me block?

1. You aren't supposed to be able to solo a hell boss.
2. Berserk are a great one-pointer for occasions like this. Phys damage aint doing anything to a boss, well you have an all magic attack that you can use. If you are getting your ass handed to you while using this, then your team needs to work out a strategy that works (see 1).


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:10 am 
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Utter wrote:
1. You aren't supposed to be able to solo a hell boss.
.


Sigged.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:23 am 
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get it?
he's lobbying.
effective

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:08 pm 
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So, does this mean I'm famous now?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Nah it was taken out of context.

Like I understand what your getting at, the problem is about hell act bosses and melees is that.. if you remove the PI then a melee can kill it solo, even without CB. Maybe not every boss now, but andarial for sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:19 am 

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This patch was a bit of a disaster. I'm not going to lie, but it wasn't a complete failure. It was a move in the right direction. There is still a ton of balancing that needs to be done. I'm not hating on the fact Melees were hit with the nerf stick but nothing else was and It needed to be just as much. Currently the mod should be poison unleashed. At least there can be changes in the future with the next patch to try again.

There just wasn't a proper overlook of what needed to be done. Melees had way too much attention and emphasis put on them that everything else that needed balance got completely ignored.

I agreed Melees needed nerfed but so did casters, all across the board especially poison.

Don't get me wrong.. I'm glad changes occurred. There needs to be a stronger input from the community next time and not just random people but people who know the game and can contribute positive information. There were unnecessary changes done that shouldn't have been, like fixing skelemages.. no one will ever use them anyway. I invested 10 into on HC and just a complete waste, very unnecessary.. just meatshields that create more lag, anyway that was just one example.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:19 am 

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Now i'm starting to realize I'm so offtopic and so wrong thread.. sigh sorry lol.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Nah it was taken out of context.

Like I understand what your getting at, the problem is about hell act bosses and melees is that.. if you remove the PI then a melee can kill it solo, even without CB. Maybe not every boss now, but andarial for sure.

Yea, imho you should be able to hold a boss as a (well built) tank or you should be able to damage it severely while taking too much damage to just stand there indefinitly.

Aka, either use a "normal" amount of juvs and tank for the team OR damage the boss seriously while chugging alot of juvs.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Aka, either use a "normal" amount of juvs and tank for the team OR damage the boss seriously while chugging alot of juvs.
How about tank hell dury? Either you do 0 (phys immune from smite making amp 1/5 and charm +50%phys) or die 0.1sec after you use zerker.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:49 pm 
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i dont see why it should be a good thing that somebody needs a tonne of juvs to accomplish something. then it jsut boils down to who can bring the bigger potion bomb. i dont have a solution im just saying.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:05 pm 
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Lee wrote:
This patch was a bit of a disaster. I'm not going to lie, but it wasn't a complete failure. It was a move in the right direction. There is still a ton of balancing that needs to be done.

I think that you and others misunderstand the scope of this patch. It wasn't a fix all. There is a lot that should still be done and still could be done. From my perspective, my only goal for this patch was adjusting the items - particularly removing skill charms, introducing strength as a way to balance items, making unique weapons comparable to other items and a few other important tweaks to bring added depth and team play to this mod. Principal in this was not disturbing the new user friendliness of Normal (which is still very easy) and making Hell more challenging and more team focused.

I feel that I have completely succeeded in those goals. That does not mean that there isn't still things that could be done, it just means that this patch was far from a disaster - it accomplished what it was designed to accomplish.

Will there be another patch? Dunno - that depends on what Soulmancer decides. I do have to say that I don't want to go through the whole yes/no nonsense of this patch process - either we are doing it or not, but this community whining that almost made the last patch not happen really left me with a bitter taste in my mouth and a real reluctance to devote the significant chunk of time to making a balance patch. Who knows, maybe someone else will step up to the plate that Soulmancer feels he can trust, but I kind of doubt that there are many people in this community who are up to the task.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:25 am 
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Blue we appreciate your effort, some of the changes like anti-rush were right on the nail

Duff created and implemented the anti-rush - I had nothing to do with it, so you are complimenting the wrong guy.

Quote:
At the same time you butchered an entire class of chars, the game is so imbalanced towards casters atm that you will only see a barb being useful in hardcore for BO and Find item, and thats only in hardcore where you need your barb to increase your party survivability.

In norm/NM - barbs are most certainly useful. I suspect they are perfectly strong in Hell too - but since I haven't played on there, I dunno.

My fire sorc is great - she crushes things like crazy and does great damage. Until she runs in to a Fire immune character. Then she stops. I wanted to go down and do Radament but couldn't because there were too many fire immune skele archers that tear up my merc and with my small life orb it isn't very safe to try to tele past all of these things.

A barb would not have that problem. As long as you are smart and are using a high damage mercenary, you can go anywhere you want. With max BO my A3 psn merc was tanking normal Korlic in a game yesterday. He's a brute!

Of course, once you put a team together with either of my characters (barb or sorc), then the crushing is non stop. With the barb/merc to handle any sort of immunes in her path and keep the boss engaged, she is able to unleash the full fury of her elemental damage without hopping all over the map while the boss chases her down. Likewise with a glass cannon at his back, my barb simply wades in to monsters as they are cut down like wheat and fall to his feet. That is TEAM work and that is what Hell difficulty is going to be all about.

Can you build a high damage melee character? I bet you can. He won't be a tank though - he will take significant damage and probably need a tank himself. You may be able to get it all though if you have a stack of zods and can tap in to some of the incredibly powerful new runewords. You won't be able to do it all without that though and it seems that is what I keep hearing people want. I want a character who can survive anything and kill everything. Well too bad - only inbalanced characters end up that way. So stop complaining to me about wanting everything and start looking at reality.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:05 am 
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if the hardcore players want a challenge, then go play starcraft 2 against real people and not AI.
FYI SC2 suck balls compared to wh40kdow2 or coh online(that's free mmorts), when it comes down to strategy, unless you play prepatched version, then just space marrines, rush to tier3 terminator squads with thunder claws and win.
Back on topic - I agree with rest.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:17 am 
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or get better

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:41 am 
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who needs a 101 to kill nm baal? if thats the case then you fail big time and you should stick to playing in norm and nm till you learn the game abit better.

Hc vs Sc again? seriously? thats as old as the hills. If you don't like hc, don't play it but stop complaining about the hc side (who have just as much right to give feedback as anyone else btw). we don't moan about sc so stfu about it please.

you seem really angry that you have built a barb. why not make one of the op builds instead of complaining about them? If you can fraps yourself soloing every boss that would be great.

stop getting a 101 to come kill hell andy for you as a starter, if you fail at the boss then accept it and come up with another strategy. First time we done andy we struggled because our poison build was put of action and we only had the 1 char each. We stopped, collected some pots and some antidotes and get her the second time. It's not hard you just need to adjust ideas. Instead though you are asking some high level to come and spoon feed you the quest.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:48 am 
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oh shit! i hit edit instead of quote. Err... kinda erased your post. I am very sorry about that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:06 am 
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First time we done andy we struggled because our poison build was put of action and we only had the 1 char each. We stopped, collected some pots and some antidotes and get her the second time. It's not hard you just need to adjust ideas. Instead though you are asking some high level to come and spoon feed you the quest.
And that's the difference between HC and SC. If you die you'll have to go back play norm and nm again, it's not happening on SC. If someone sucks it's his fault, you'll be behind your team and eventually get frustrated enough to delete/abandon your build, on HC you are always needed even with low BO as free 80%more hp is better than running again from norm.
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Hc vs Sc again? seriously? thats as old as the hills.
It's not sc vs hc again... You may say "if it works on hc then it will work on sc" which is only half true - random teams/not vita oriented build/faster, more aggressive gameplay and you seem to forget about this, always putting how your tank is ok with 100 juvs in pack. I suggest you to play barb on SC, just for a test, ofc you won't as you like risk. You like risk do a barb on SC.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:52 am 
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It's not sc vs hc again... You may say "if it works on hc then it will work on sc" which is only half true - random teams/not vita oriented build/faster, more aggressive gameplay and you seem to forget about this, always putting how your tank is ok with 100 juvs in pack. I suggest you to play barb on SC, just for a test, ofc you won't as you like risk. You like risk do a barb on SC.

not vita oriented? I guess 120ish base str on a rabies druid is "Pure Vit" by your standards then? Maybe my sorc with 80 base str and 70ish energy is pure vit too? maybe my necro with more str than he actually needs for gear atm, is that vita oriented? People can build how they like, you can go base str and just use charms and sockets to get gear on. Thats too much of a hassle and wastes inv space. I (and many others) would rather spread the points over the stats we need.

Faster more aggressive gameplay? I think you mean less organised reckless play.

what has having juvs got to do with anything? I've just ran from town in act 3 through the wp's and gathered a full cube of rejuvs in the process that i'll use on mephisto. Now it's cheesing and easy becuse I'm using what is dropping and storing pots for the upcoming boss fight? Anyway, who needs that many juvs? TheUtters barb used 3 and a half belt rows of pots tanking duriel, I used a few reds and bluesand a couple of juvs. Thats hardly chugging juvs like no tomorrow. Much easier to kill the boss quickly and save time.

I played a char through sc last season, didn't enjoy it. Whats risky about playing a barb on sc btw? Is playing a barb on sc more risky than playing a melee zon on hc? I highly doubt i'd have as much fun.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:17 pm 
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not vita oriented? I guess 120ish base str on a rabies druid is "Pure Vit" by your standards then? Maybe my sorc with 80 base str and 70ish energy is pure vit too?
What are my standards? huh? where did I say pure vita??
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Faster more aggressive gameplay? I think you mean less organised reckless play.
:-(.
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Whats risky about playing a barb on sc btw? Is playing a barb on sc more risky than playing a melee zon on hc?
Yes it is. It was a sarcasm.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Quote:
Blue we appreciate your effort, some of the changes like anti-rush were right on the nail

Duff created and implemented the anti-rush - I had nothing to do with it, so you are complimenting the wrong guy.

Quote:
At the same time you butchered an entire class of chars, the game is so imbalanced towards casters atm that you will only see a barb being useful in hardcore for BO and Find item, and thats only in hardcore where you need your barb to increase your party survivability.

In norm/NM - barbs are most certainly useful. I suspect they are perfectly strong in Hell too - but since I haven't played on there, I dunno.

My fire sorc is great - she crushes things like crazy and does great damage. Until she runs in to a Fire immune character. Then she stops. I wanted to go down and do Radament but couldn't because there were too many fire immune skele archers that tear up my merc and with my small life orb it isn't very safe to try to tele past all of these things.

A barb would not have that problem. As long as you are smart and are using a high damage mercenary, you can go anywhere you want. With max BO my A3 psn merc was tanking normal Korlic in a game yesterday. He's a brute!

Of course, once you put a team together with either of my characters (barb or sorc), then the crushing is non stop. With the barb/merc to handle any sort of immunes in her path and keep the boss engaged, she is able to unleash the full fury of her elemental damage without hopping all over the map while the boss chases her down. Likewise with a glass cannon at his back, my barb simply wades in to monsters as they are cut down like wheat and fall to his feet. That is TEAM work and that is what Hell difficulty is going to be all about.

Can you build a high damage melee character? I bet you can. He won't be a tank though - he will take significant damage and probably need a tank himself. You may be able to get it all though if you have a stack of zods and can tap in to some of the incredibly powerful new runewords. You won't be able to do it all without that though and it seems that is what I keep hearing people want. I want a character who can survive anything and kill everything. Well too bad - only inbalanced characters end up that way. So stop complaining to me about wanting everything and start looking at reality.


This isn't my original post... so not to confuse everyone, im quoting Blue here.

Look, the only change I ask is this, remove the PI from act bosses.
I understand what ur getting at with the 1 char cant solo shit, but, lvl 101 barb with top end gear wouldnt be able to solo hell andy so its kind of ridiculous, because the same char can solo a boss like hellforge dragon. This phus immune bullshit on all act bosses is just stupid and forces us not to play melees, cutting the list of viable builds in half. Thats balance?

I made my barb specifically do to damage. I didin't max stamina, I maxed frenzy and sword mastery and did 10 stamina and 10 double swing because I realized that I don't do damage even If i max all dmg skills.

Also, give every boss after hell meph poison immune and fire immune. Fire and poison chars can solo bosses easily (I just saw someone solo hell abyss and then samhein.. like wtf?). Otherwise you wont accomplished what you set out to do; making us suck and the AI too godly to solo. As long as you can damage the boss without causing some stupid counter and either run/tank it with summons, then we can solo stuff... SO NERF ALL SUMMONS LOL...

Being the top Barb on the ladder I can tell you this, barbs suck donkeyballs in hell. My entire role is replaced by 2 items (CTA and Glory Crest) and 1 skill (spiritblade/decoy).

Give 1 % crushing blow on steelrends. 1 % is enough. Put 1% crushing blow on blood craft gloves. You buffed frenzy but its donkeyballs compared to WW because no frenzy items have crushing blow.

Im trying to make 2x gris caddy with 5x bers so I can use crushing blow on act bosses that have unbreakable phys immune. Then I can be even more useless, but, at least now I know there was nothing I could have fucking done to it in the first place.(atmas scarab doesnt do it)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:15 pm 
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hc can certainly put in their 2 cents but thats about all its worth since the mod is made and balanced around sc and with numbers saying there are about 10 accounts active on hc? i lol

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
hc can certainly put in their 2 cents but thats about all its worth since the mod is made and balanced around sc and with numbers saying there are about 10 accounts active on hc? i lol


I dont want to hate on HC players, they have their pride and their ego about being the best players, well, because they usually are.

However, this is diablo 2 not counterstrike. Most people want to play relaxed, not worrying about dying when you put 30 hours into a character. If I personally want to play an intense game I will play a pvp based game because that is the greatest challenge, you vs another human.

Consider that Soulmancer made this mod for softcore, so a lot of the changes were intended to specifically kill you if you lacked knowledge about the game.

I don't want to play 30 hours and get to hell meph and cast a single spell and lose all of that because I didn't know he kills me in 1 shot. 30 hours to learn a boss has this specific counter...

Just saying this, if your gonna balance the game, balance it towards softcore not hardcore. I dont care if xxxx player did xxxxx thing in hardcore because I don't have 2 other buttbuddies following me around in the game to help me do shit with 'teamwork'.

I got to hell a5 by myself, sure I had to ask some high lvls to kill hell andy for me because she has fucking unbreakable phys immune, but the point is that I play this game to relax and progress steadily.

When I mean by myself I partied with whoever was in the pub game I made and we tried to figure it out, instead of having it already planned whats going to happen cuz we ddint choose LR/psn nec+ fire sorc+ healer to make bosses impossibly easy.

This progression stops when you hit a boss that just fucks you over because you chose to play a class that isn't balanced at all and you should have chosen poison or hydra.

Yes we teamed up for hell andy obviously, and nm baal and norm baal and all the other act bosses. I always team up with pubs for bosses, but this doesnt change the fact that if these pubs got CTA (OHM can drop in NM so its feasable), I would be absolutely fucking useless.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
hc can certainly put in their 2 cents but thats about all its worth since the mod is made and balanced around sc


Who cares what it's balanced around? It's the same game... just because we choose to give the char we build one chance, that means it's a diff game yeh?

Quote:
with numbers saying there are about 10 accounts active on hc? i lol



Yet we still have no problem finding a party and progressing. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
hc can certainly put in their 2 cents but thats about all its worth since the mod is made and balanced around sc and with numbers saying there are about 10 accounts active on hc? i lol


Since I stated the statistic you're using wrongly, I feel I should correct you. 10 active accounts in HELL HC. If you're going to throw around statistics as a zinger, at least make sure they're correct.


Also:
blue_myriddn wrote:
Can you build a high damage melee character? I bet you can. He won't be a tank though - he will take significant damage and probably need a tank himself. You may be able to get it all though if you have a stack of zods and can tap in to some of the incredibly powerful new runewords. You won't be able to do it all without that though and it seems that is what I keep hearing people want. I want a character who can survive anything and kill everything. Well too bad - only inbalanced characters end up that way. So stop complaining to me about wanting everything and start looking at reality.


I'd like to see a melee character focused purely on damage. I'd also like to see how quickly they die miserably. There is a HUGE difference in attacking a boss face to face than it is from across the screen. It doesn't matter if Blades are up and tanking, at some point a boss will turn to you and kill you.
It's the same reason gearing Elemental Melee characters is so difficult unless you have incredible gear. Bosses will punk you much harder if you're close to them. So if a melee wants to actually stick around for the fight, he has to have significant defensive gear, meaning he's not dealing significant damage anymore.
So basically, I can either build a melee character as a tank and be replaced by a Necromancer or Druid skill. Or I can build him as a DPS and be killed when a boss sneezes at me.
It's silly to balance melee around the fact that casters deal great damage but are squishy because casters will avoid the brunt of what a boss can really do.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:18 pm 
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im not using it as a zinger im saying suggestions that impact the game towards hc shouldnt be weighted heavily if there are only 10 active accounts, however your correction makes a lot more sense, i was likely skimming when i saw it.

what it's balanced around matters. a lot of players on sc don even pick up juvs. i dont care cause its easy pickings for me. does that make them bad? maybe. does bringing a whole cube of juvs to a boss fight make you good? i dont think so. on softcore you can get away with having minimal juvs. on hc you cant. so lets not assume every party has 50 juvs/char for every boss fight. juv's are likely one of the most powerful tools in this game. its the only thing that scales all the way through the game. you boost them with every point in vita, with every gear upgrade with more + life with every life buff you increase the amount that little purple drank heals you.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:55 pm 
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wtf are you talking about, you can get away with 1 belt of juvs and a couple of reds usually. even when we done the naked run we were mainly using reds. Te only chars who NEED juvs are the druids/barbs because reds have no real effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:32 pm 
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When you talk of dropping a pot bomb of 50 juvs, I don't think you're looking at it the right way.

Yes, in my team I've seen ~15-30 juvs dropped on the ground for an act boss fight. Rarely do we ever use all of them, but they are there just in case the fight doesn't go as expected. If the fight does turn out to be quite uphill, we now have that extra buffer of potions that can certainly save someone from dying or be the difference between winning that bossfight or having to regroup and try again.
It's not a requirement, it's a buffer for error. Just like always having both life buffs active in a party isn't a requirement, but it gives you wriggle room and space to mess up without dying.

You'll see that kind of mentality a lot on HC. You always want to be prepared for any boss fight. The majority of HC deaths I've had and have seen are purely from people/myself being unprepared for certain areas and certain bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get http://forum.arimyth.com/poto nm???? help noo
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:21 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
wtf are you talking about, you can get away with 1 belt of juvs and a couple of reds usually. even when we done the naked run we were mainly using reds. Te only chars who NEED juvs are the druids/barbs because reds have no real effect.

so, 3x16 = ?
Zikur wrote:
so lets not assume every party has 50 juvs/char for every boss fight.

i didnt think id be close.

im not trying to start the huge hc vs sc thing. im just pointing out that if half the teams on sc were as prepared as those on hc there woudlnt be so much complaining. in a game that takes little skill its not like ther is a huge gap, thats not to say that being prepared be it wiht the right gear/skills/ect isnt a skill.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:46 pm 
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lmao, you are going by how many the party has??? seriously more then enough pots drop, if folks dont wanna pick them up then don't complain when you get owned and start yelling for pots. I'm pretty sure you can pick them up on sc too, just because people don't bother dosen't mean its not a good idea... Why would a tank carry a full cube of reds for a fight when a belt of rejuvs and a few in the inventory will do the same job?

Zikur wrote:
im not trying to start the huge hc vs sc thing.

really?

Zikur wrote:
on softcore you can get away with having minimal juvs. on hc you cant.


Since you say that i guess you have experienced it first hand? I was sure you only played sc...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
lmao, you are going by how many the party has???

i think thats pretty clear
Zikur wrote:
Zikur wrote:
so lets not assume every party has 50 juvs/char for every boss fight.


PureRage-DoD wrote:

Zikur wrote:
im not trying to start the huge hc vs sc thing.

really?

really.


Zikur wrote:
on softcore you can get away with having minimal juvs. on hc you cant.


Since you say that i guess you have experienced it first hand? I was sure you only played sc...[/quote]
i have no interest in playing on a realm with less players.
not to mention multi boxing has rather steep consequences on hc.
the amount of times a boss is killed on sc with juvs used < 1 is > number of times a boss is killed on hc a boss is killed with < 1 juv.
thats not to say that hc deaths < sc deaths.
but thats why you need them. sometimes.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:34 am 
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I catch flak for having a juv mule on SC :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:13 am 
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i got one too
doesnt take long to fill him up playing a few different chars when nobody picks em up on sc

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:07 am 
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Seems we need to wait 4-5 months for any HC barbs advance (like try do dmg to meph, try LOS and die there) and provide some feedback, SC players are noobs and can't play so no balance till then.


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blue_myriddn wrote:
oh shit! i hit edit instead of quote. Err... kinda erased your post. I am very sorry about that.


How very convenient of you Blue

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Fox1409 wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
oh shit! i hit edit instead of quote. Err... kinda erased your post. I am very sorry about that.


How very convenient of you Blue

You would be dumb enough to think I actually intended to do that.
You must be one of those tinfoil hat dudes.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:39 am 
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HOLY SHIT HE CAN SEE MY HAT

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
i have no interest in playing on a realm with less players.
not to mention multi boxing has rather steep consequences on hc.
the amount of times a boss is killed on sc with juvs used < 1 is > number of times a boss is killed on hc a boss is killed with < 1 juv.
thats not to say that hc deaths < sc deaths.
but thats why you need them. sometimes.


so what you are saying is. You have never played hc here but you know for a fact that hc NEED juvs more than sc? The reason you maybe need less juvs on sc is because every team seems to carry a healer with them.

We just done nm meph last night with a sin playing the tank, we didn't use masses of pots, what we had in the belt was enough. (i needed 2 juvs, 0 reds and 0 blues though I could have used reds if i actually picked them up).
Some places may require a good few juvs or may need you to raid a rejuv mule (LoS and certain bosses if they are immune to the whole party) but for the most part, a belt and abit is more than enough. those can be found in the time from the last act wp to the act boss.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:38 pm 
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so, about 50ish for the party then?
PureRage-DoD wrote:
so what you are saying is. You have never played hc here but you know for a fact that hc NEED juvs more than sc?


this is so amusing to me, are you convinced your text files are different than mine or something? when i go in fully geared with plenty of res and life buffs and i need to make the choice of juv or die that this will only occur on sc? are you saying that on hc that wouldnt happen? because what? your game mechanics are different?
these questions are of course rhetorical. you can stop pretending like nobody has played this game until they have played hc. am i saying i havent died this ladder? certainly not. But i'd wager i've had a lot more fun than i would have on hc multiboxing a tight 3 man team with a barb in the corner for bo. just the tedium of gearing them all up to avoid death makes my head spin.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:44 pm 
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who knows, i only know what i needed, wasn't any requests for pots from anyone though and no dropped cubes so i assume a belt was plenty.

BTW, megas/ultras heal more than a juv does for most casters

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:58 pm 
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i dont mind the refreshing towns to buy them, its the click dropping them to belt that turns me off.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:01 pm 
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i drink them direct from the inventory

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
i drink them direct from the inventory


Like a gangsta.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:14 pm 
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nah they aint 40's :P

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:58 pm 
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that is how i use them as well,. not like i take the time to drop them, but my belt isnt filled with juvs so it'd just be easier if i didnt have to open my inv to use them.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Quote:
not like i take the time to drop them
left shift + click isn't working?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:11 pm 
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ill have to have try, it may be that they dont stack with supers and that megas and ultras wont stack with each other. im not actually sure if they dont fall into an empty slot but im pretty sure megas/ultras wont go to the same slot

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:59 pm 
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heh yeah those don't stack.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:03 pm 
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it would be pretty sick if Mega and Ultra were treated as normal potions. Then your potion bombs will be 5x stronger, and you could buy them from malah in bulk.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:12 am 
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i dont think infinite ultras should b sold without refreshing town

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:17 am 
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Quote:
and you could buy them from malah in bulk.
I thought I could suggest adding them as perma store -in files they already were but with small error preventing them from spawning - but you could then buy them on norm and I thought idea would die, even if they were 55lvl req pots.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:04 am 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
and you could buy them from malah in bulk.
I thought I could suggest adding them as perma store -in files they already were but with small error preventing them from spawning - but you could then buy them on norm and I thought idea would die, even if they were 55lvl req pots.


Well I was assuming it wasn't added to make the mod 'harder' and more 'challenging', when in reality it's just to waste our time more and frustrate us more because I don't play with the same 3 buttbuddies 24/7 who always have a healer in the team.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:36 am 
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It wasn't even in suggestions, I could do it for my own when I was adding items to shop but didn't want to do anything on my own, it's not my mod, even when I saw that Terry wanted them to be "perm" in stores.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:27 am 
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It would be sweet if it's not too hard to add it.

Maybe healpots would be viable in a5 hell? 1000 hp heal isnt bad.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:44 am 
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It's easy but then you could buy them @ every vendor. Ofc they are 55lvl and 77lvl req so shouldn't be gamebreaking, as super pots are good only till a3.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:30 pm 
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lvl 77 pot is a4 nm, this shouldn't be a problem for balance imo.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:54 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Fox1409 wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
oh shit! i hit edit instead of quote. Err... kinda erased your post. I am very sorry about that.


How very convenient of you Blue

You would be dumb enough to think I actually intended to do that.
You must be one of those tinfoil hat dudes.


Actually Blue you must be the total dumb ass if you think you can pull the wool over everyone's eyes. I happen to be a moderator in another forum and know for a fact that if you "accidentally" click on edit on someone else post you can actually click on esc, refresh (F5) or exit out of the browser and your changes won't affect the post, the ONLY way you can make changes on someone else post is if you actually save it, so yr actually saying that you didn't realize you were editing someone else post and saved it? then perhaps you shouldn't be a moderator at all because I have never seen anyone make a mistake like that, most people with even 1/2 a brain would realize they are editing someone else post before they finish editing.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Fox1409 wrote:
My Vagina has sand in it.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
ohhh Blue harder, faster


Zikur quit taking Blue's cock up yr ass or is he that far up yr ass that you now taste shit and have to answer for him?

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Fox1409 wrote:
My Vagina has sand in it.

Fox1409 wrote:
Blue put it there

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
Blue stop a minute so I can deep throat yr cock and make it harder so you can shove it back up my ass

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:28 pm 
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brb imagining the homosexual relationship between two forum handles of ppl I have never met before from some other forum.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Image
Kinda says it all.

now go back to being a forum mod on DelusionalDorks.com and leave me alone.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:25 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Image
Kinda says it all.

now go back to being a forum mod on DelusionalDorks.com and leave me alone.


real wrote:
With that said, I just want to inform you that it is really unattractive to see this small community attack each other on these boards. Honestly I expected it from the players but not the people who actually work on the mod itself. Take a lesson from companies, when they get shitty feedback they just ignore it. I don't see any reason to try to debase the opinion of the people who play your tight knit community mod. Isn't the idea to get as many people playing this mod as possible? I for one would like more people to play with especially since I cannot progress the game without them. think that telling people their build sucks and their opinions are wrong is probably the least effective way to bring more community to this mod. There are ways to argue about things intellectually... try this tbh..more will be learned and people will be happier with the process.


Kinda says it all. I think it's time to move on, but I hope you all are able to balance well enough for most people to be satisfied. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:32 pm 
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that was a dumb post that I have seen ever new member to every new community write. For some reason everyone feels they can come in and dictate how things should be done. I pretty much just ignore it.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:44 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
that was a dumb post that I have seen ever new member to every new community write. For some reason everyone feels they can come in and dictate how things should be done. I pretty much just ignore it.


Thank you for proving our point about the quality of most of your replies with the first five words of your post.

I'm not a new member, but I had to make a new forum account to give input on this patch. What you actually ignore is well-constructed input whether you agree with it or not as you did with one of my first posts on this account: viewtopic.php?p=24515#p24515 Four different people posted their opinions, but because you happen to disagree, you tell them just to play something else. There's a reason why the same imbalance arguments keep being brought up; it's because they're either being ignored or grudgingly discussed amidst a shower of sarcasm.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:05 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Image
Kinda says it all.

now go back to being a forum mod on DelusionalDorks.com and leave me alone.

More like Kinda says that yr useless, for yr info most forums are the same, the edit and quote buttons are together, some as my example of the forum I moderate (see image below) also have a delete button next to it but generally people aren't quite that stupid to delete someone else post without realizing it
Image

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:55 am 
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Dunno why don't you turn ClearType, these fonts looks awful.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Can we stop derailing this shit and go back to the original issue, the huge unbalance of the Act Boss physical immunity and how it totally shits on melee.

It took me like 8 pages of 'whining and complaining' to help someone understand that an imbalance exist. How long is it going to take to make any change?

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:54 pm 
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I wonder if barbs could have 2 shields at once instead of 2 swords/axes/maces/other wpns.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:37 pm 
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@Rasta, your unbalance isnt only towards melee, its towards physical damage dealers in general. melee's have a better role in the fight than lets say a guided arrow/multishot/strafe zon or a dedicated bladefury sin if the bosses physical immunity cant be broken.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:55 pm 

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Hflame wrote:
@Rasta, your unbalance isnt only towards melee, its towards physical damage dealers in general. melee's have a better role in the fight than lets say a guided arrow/multishot/strafe zon or a dedicated bladefury sin if the bosses physical immunity cant be broken.
I agree here, but the fact that most physical dps chars are melee is where it started. I roll a bowa, not looking forward to hell atm for that reason. I'm guessing if I re-make it will likely max multi and the go ele (i.e. immo arrow)since ele builds rule the realms atm.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Hflame wrote:
@Rasta, your unbalance isnt only towards melee, its towards physical damage dealers in general. melee's have a better role in the fight than lets say a guided arrow/multishot/strafe zon or a dedicated bladefury sin if the bosses physical immunity cant be broken.


Yea, when I meant melee it was including those builds.

Bowa is still kinda useful though cuz they rape trash, however they suffer low hp so agaisnt bosses sometimes not as good.

Now they are fucking shit against bosses.

Of course we don't want people to play bowazons either, since poison zons exist. Let's remove this build from viability and limit our options more.

Hmm blade sins.. hmm why do these 3 traps even exist? Let's nerf it to oblivion so anyone that makes this build wastes their time more.

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Hmm blade sins.. hmm why do these 3 traps even exist? Let's nerf it to oblivion so anyone that makes this build wastes their time more.


You back off muh Bladeshield.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:18 pm 
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just to let you know my first char was a bladesin using venom. but it was mostly shadow skill based, so i was tanking most of the time thru norm and nm. even solo'ed half of norm.
so these 3 skills are pretty good, i can leech with blade shield, best when im surrounded by leechable mobs. starting out with blade sentinel was pretty good, as it was doing damage for me while i can run around it.
but yea, im pretty sure everyone agrees that hell bosses' physical resistance is messed up currently. im suprised it didnt come up the many ladders the charm thing was implemented. so no need to bash people or tell people not to make melee chars, they are still viable until to the last few hell bosses, granted if you have enough amp percentage.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:39 am 
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Quote:
im suprised it didnt come up the many ladders the charm thing was implemented
Amp on every item was removing that extra phys res and yet not lower phys res to funny amount. So it's obvious that with totally destroyed amp off nec it hit physical dealers the most while casters laugh their ass off.
As for dexzons - using strafe on bosses isn't good idea w/o amp, strong bo and oak, I have one with brc etc. etc and she's probably the best trasher yet dodge lock forcing her to hit and run drastically lower overall DPS + all damage is from magic arrows unless as I said you had maxed amp which is not happening every day. Btw. she's 60vita build, rawr.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Hflame wrote:
@Rasta, your unbalance isnt only towards melee, its towards physical damage dealers in general. melee's have a better role in the fight than lets say a guided arrow/multishot/strafe zon or a dedicated bladefury sin if the bosses physical immunity cant be broken.


Yea, when I meant melee it was including those builds.

Bowa is still kinda useful though cuz they rape trash, however they suffer low hp so agaisnt bosses sometimes not as good.

Now they are fucking shit against bosses.

Of course we don't want people to play bowazons either, since poison zons exist. Let's remove this build from viability and limit our options more.

Hmm blade sins.. hmm why do these 3 traps even exist? Let's nerf it to oblivion so anyone that makes this build wastes their time more.



Summon Druid is completely ruined.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:24 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
that was a dumb post that I have seen ever new member to every new community write. For some reason everyone feels they can come in and dictate how things should be done. I pretty much just ignore it.



Are you fucking serious? looooool

The only reason I made that post at all was because it was embarrassing to watch your ugly insecure ass defend yourself in every single post, posts that have nothing to do with you.

blue_myriddn wrote:
The tweaks to melee gear had no impact on this.
The change was in the reduction of Amp - which wasn't something I was involved in.



Meanwhile nobody gives a fuck about you blue or how you do things, just look into the problems that people are reporting.

How fucking awesome it is for me to come to this forum, spend ~20 minutes writing some feedback and then have the one person it could have helped say he ignores it. Literally contradicting the very advice I tried to give. You obviously don't give a shit how many people are playing since I'm sure you have a fish pond of faggots following you around every game to help you progress.

Anyways I won't post here again unless its to trade since I'll just be ignored. cya


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:35 pm 
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real wrote:
Anyways I won't post here again unless its to trade since I'll just be ignored. cya

Probably just as well.

People join forums and think they are qualified to give advice and that more experienced folks should stand in awe at the amazing insight they have to offer. Happens all the time.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:11 pm 

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Okay???? Ant eaters eat 30,000 ants a day. ALL the TIME

I'm glad we are sharing snapple facts but I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this?

My first post wasn't anything but a humble post giving perfectly true feedback. I wouldn't of cared at all if nobody responded to it, I expected that. But it is a little more than irritating to see you just disregard my post like that. I really thought a lot of the angst on this forum was just from like passed sour relationships....but I can see now that you are just an asshole to every one including new members to the community. It is okay to be an asshole when you hold the keys I guess...I was just surprised since you were so nice in game.

Quick response to this criticism yet just completely ignore (as in not even read) my formal feedback about the actual mod itself? Yea like I said, the one mistake you make is your assumption that people actually give any shit about you when they are posting here. You constantly make shit about yourself or your opinions instead of analyzing feedback from others and making the mod better. But what do I know I only have 4 posts and am not qualified or experienced enough to have an opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:32 pm 

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Real, I'm going to relate anecdote of mine. For a recruitment event my fraternity does this thing called friday night fights. Both times I've fought, the guy I've fought has been at least 30+ lbs heavier than me. The first time I fought I went toe-to-toe and lost through a narrow decision. So, I got insanely hyped up. The second time I was fighting a guy who was 30+ lbs heavier, but nowhere near as muscly as the first. He wrestled for 4 years so I knew he was hiding a lot of muscle and could probably kick my ass, but for the sake of recruitment I let the match get all hyped up. When it came down to it, I went toe-to-toe again through all the rounds and lost in another narrow judges decision. The betting pools had favored me knocking him out in the second, even though I knew it was bullshit.

Anyway, it was the best fight of the night. Recruitment went fantastic. But as I was sitting afterwards, exhausted sore and hurting (if you've never boxed or wrestled you can't really understand) this guy came up to me and started giving me shit for losing. I hadn't asked him to bet on me, I'd even warned him it won't be like it seemed and after me putting my personal safety and well-being on the line this dipshit was giving me shit for not fighting better. Suffice it to say, from that point on he doomed himself.

blue_myriddn puts a ton of time and effort into this community. He greeted me as a noobie, gave helpful advice when I was struggling and as I've read the forums and everybody bitching and moaning about the state of things I've come to realize that by and large he's right. He's done a ton of stuff to develop the community. I call things like I see them. And when I read your posts the only thing I can think of is that guy who gave me shit after my fight. You say you won't post here again then escalate your interaction with ad hominem attacks and other belittlement in a hope of getting a real response to a game-born issue. If you want to be heard, you need to give. Like you said, you're new. If you play through hell baal and have some well-thought out suggestions, write something. If all you have to give is being a third-rate drama queen, please, go somewhere else.


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:58 pm 
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kurtistheturtle wrote:
Real, I'm going to relate anecdote of mine. For a recruitment event my fraternity does this thing called friday night fights. Both times I've fought, the guy I've fought has been at least 30+ lbs heavier than me. The first time I fought I went toe-to-toe and lost through a narrow decision. So, I got insanely hyped up. The second time I was fighting a guy who was 30+ lbs heavier, but nowhere near as muscly as the first. He wrestled for 4 years so I knew he was hiding a lot of muscle and could probably kick my ass, but for the sake of recruitment I let the match get all hyped up. When it came down to it, I went toe-to-toe again through all the rounds and lost in another narrow judges decision. The betting pools had favored me knocking him out in the second, even though I knew it was bullshit.

Anyway, it was the best fight of the night. Recruitment went fantastic. But as I was sitting afterwards, exhausted sore and hurting (if you've never boxed or wrestled you can't really understand) this guy came up to me and started giving me shit for losing. I hadn't asked him to bet on me, I'd even warned him it won't be like it seemed and after me putting my personal safety and well-being on the line this dipshit was giving me shit for not fighting better. Suffice it to say, from that point on he doomed himself.


I fail to see how this relates. He had a well thought out post and did some theory working. He was polite and to the point and wasn't ignored he was completely disregarded as a spawn. That is why he's upset.

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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:55 am 

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something about it gets under my skin still, but i need to stop late-night posts in general. i say really stupid shit^^


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 Post subject: Re: how to get to nm???? help noobies
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:01 am 
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LockDown wrote:
I fail to see how this relates. He had a well thought out post and did some theory working. He was polite and to the point and wasn't ignored he was completely disregarded as a spawn. That is why he's upset.

I agree, I think you do fail to see how it relates. I don't though, and I appreciate the post.

Perception is really the key here, and forum posts are often like works of modern art. Two people can see the exact same thing and have entirely different reactions to it. For me, his post was rude, condescending and utterly arrogant. It was nothing but salt on a wound. Clearly you saw it differently and that is your prerogative. Just like art, it is often wise to not try and force your view on someone else - if they don't see it they simply don't see it. Perhaps some day they will change and see it differently, but to stubbornly believe that you can change their view at this current point in time is a naive belief.

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