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 Post subject: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:57 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Since essentially my party is a Bowazon(Class I know in and out), a WW barb(Another one I know in and out), and a blaze sorc(limited), most of my experience to date has been ~ up into the 50s. Let's start with the bowazon:

Early bows have no pierce, which means you don't make use of GA piercing, which means that the class is once again in the dumpster. Could you get it late game? Perhaps, I haven't seen the bows, but the struggle in the early game is real. With moderate investment the pierce skill gives about 50%, 15% from a belt, and since no bow I've found comes with pierce you don't really make use of GA how it could be used. I'm not sure how pierce chances actually stack, if it's theoretical 65% or actual 65%, if it's theoretical it's even worse since you'll loose chains of GAs later on when you're adding up to 100 and it's rolling the percents seperately. Crossbows seem to be forced onto the player because they're the only weapons that come with inherent pierce, and crossbows are dumpster as fuck. Another issue is even with max resists the spells that have been added seem to do absurd amounts of damage, even going 50:50 dex/life yields situations where you die almost instantly through dodge/evade. I can only assume a higher investment of vit is required to even stay alive, which if anyone who has played a bowazon knows is fucking terrible. But all the spells I've seen so far are skilless auto-hit bullshit you can't evade. Mainly I'm speaking of the beam that burns a circular elemental pattern. It looks badass, but it's a terrible mechanic. Every boss seems to have it, and you can't evade it. If it dropped a small circle on the ground even half a second before it shot down to give you time to react, it would be perfect, but as is it's just a shitty FOH spell with a dot attached that you can only deal with through HP/res, and even capped res and 50% vit points in addition to dodge/evade seems to be inefficient.

WW barb:
No idea why BO was literally made nothing more than a stepping stone to BC. 1% increase, is that a joke? I see that health seems to have been compensated for all classes to essentially be like you always have BO and oak on, but holy fuck it's like damage has been doubled. It takes the barb's niche role of giving a more powerful BO to the team and rips it from them entirely. Sure, you can give a more powerful one, but when the spell probably isn't worth casting who fucking cares? I doubt I'd even cast it if it weren't attached to shout. Aside from that, I love the melee mastery, the other masteries in place of the outdated ones are pretty cool too. But the class is entirely ruined by not having BO.

Sorc:
Blaze and firewall do not reset the enemy health regen timer, making it one of the dumbest classes I've ever seen played. Also blaze can't even function as a skill anymore with it's duration.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:18 am 
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You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.


Last edited by hunterAS on Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:30 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
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Blaze and firewall are DoT skills that do not cause counters and can stack on top of itself, making them 2 of the better boss killing skills in the game. They've been like this for the entirety of HU, where have you been?

hunterAS wrote:
You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:54 am 
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-agree: would be nice for the DoT spells from the sky had a marker first. It may be a pain to do depending on what spell had to be used to clone them. (it looks like Tstorm ot FoH clone...havent looked). Lightning ball does (meteor clone it looks like).

Therer are plenty of ways to live early on. Hell, i used skulls in armor and helm for regen for quite awhile. (granted I am playing a fury wolf, blah blah).

-kinda agree with oak/BO. It does seem harsh that a few gems can give you more life than a 20 skill point investment. (i would like to see about 30-35% max life for these. like blvl +lvl/(5 or 6). Still, I am very happy to see an end of Oak and BO characters standing in a corner, and the diversity it promotes is at least good.

Haven't played with guided arrow, but autopierce was taken away a long time ago for a reason. Giving some of the regular unique bows some pierce, or early sets (like flavie's) or the like may not be a bad idea.

In short, I can agree with some of your points, however, you post comes off simply as whining.

This patch so far is fun as all get out. Play some, and enjoy how much has been added into the patch.
There are so many quality of life changes alone, that you should at least find some solace in your apparent misery. (ty for a lot of map changes, and omfg thanks Rage for the ReturnTome).

It's not perfect, but the totality of the overhaul was very well done from what I have played. Making small changes in the future can make it even better. I will still enjoy this patch for quite awhile. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
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in regards to BO and Oak:

Considering BO is a cast-and-forget type skill with a long duration, you can still create a dedicated BO Barb and get probably around 12-14% end game. With characters having access to few sources of %life and having most of their HP come from items, levels, and vitality, even small percentages make a substantial difference. a 10%+ BO can probably add 1500 or so life for an end game character. And it's something that can be cast in town with the party there and then the character removed from the game until the next cast needs to be made.

Oak sage looks like it can get substantially more than what BO gets. With a 4% starting base amount and 1% per 4 soft points, end game Oak sage will be looking at around 18-20%. That's a decently hefty amount for any character.

The great thing is these aren't necessary anymore, making a lot more party diversity available to us. The only tweak I would make with them is probably have hard points into each skill be weighted more than soft points. Maybe BO needs a slight buff, maybe Oak sage can get an extra 1% per 5 hard points, but otherwise what was done to them is definitely in the right direction. Having the previous oak sage and BO was far too necessary and impossible to balance difficulty around.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:58 pm
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I have no idea how Mraw modified the boss counters this patch. What I observed if I remember correctly, is bosses being significantly less dangerous with a tank. It felt like the number of melee counters was very low if not almost nonexistent compared to long range counters. Kiting a boss was made a lot more difficult, which is nice.

As long as I was the only one hitting the boss in melee range, the rest of the party was safe. If one of my teammates starts trying to attack the boss as well from range, the boss goes absolutely berserk, Dtail counters fly all over the place and the fight suddenly becomes a whole lot more difficult with spells everywhere. I had to kill a few NM/hell bosses by myself without the damage of some of my teammates for that reason more than once and it is particularly annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:11 pm 
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Lol.... sure ya did.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:14 pm 
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melee and ranged receive the same counters

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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kramuti wrote:
-agree: would be nice for the DoT spells from the sky had a marker first. It may be a pain to do depending on what spell had to be used to clone them. (it looks like Tstorm ot FoH clone...havent looked). Lightning ball does (meteor clone it looks like).

Therer are plenty of ways to live early on. Hell, i used skulls in armor and helm for regen for quite awhile. (granted I am playing a fury wolf, blah blah).

-kinda agree with oak/BO. It does seem harsh that a few gems can give you more life than a 20 skill point investment. (i would like to see about 30-35% max life for these. like blvl +lvl/(5 or 6). Still, I am very happy to see an end of Oak and BO characters standing in a corner, and the diversity it promotes is at least good.

Haven't played with guided arrow, but autopierce was taken away a long time ago for a reason. Giving some of the regular unique bows some pierce, or early sets (like flavie's) or the like may not be a bad idea.

In short, I can agree with some of your points, however, you post comes off simply as whining.

This patch so far is fun as all get out. Play some, and enjoy how much has been added into the patch.
There are so many quality of life changes alone, that you should at least find some solace in your apparent misery. (ty for a lot of map changes, and omfg thanks Rage for the ReturnTome).

It's not perfect, but the totality of the overhaul was very well done from what I have played. Making small changes in the future can make it even better. I will still enjoy this patch for quite awhile. :D


I played a blaze way back when, blaze itself would damage and force the enemy to not be reset. It was broken in terms of damage, but the useability and lack of ability to clear I personally think balanced out it's power. It's just dumb that the spells don't reset the 'hit' counter so to speak, so bosses just heal.

Skulls wouldn't keep me alive, hell even diamonds wouldn't with how much damage the spells do and how little the diamonds protect now.

As for GA pierce being removed, it was removed way back when in the earliest rendition of the game when melees ran supreme and amp was disgustingly high. It no longer needs to be so restricted.

Whining? Maybe. I made this post after crashing like 20 times in a row and getting fed up with the bullshit.

Someone pointed out that it's balanced that the classes don't exist anymore, all it does is wash out their usefulness. Having a druid/barb is pointless when you can run a melee paladin now. The party will maintain similar health levels, but you get absurd amounts of strength from auras. Or run a dclaw and get a much tankier, higher damage melee unit. It's just silly, since the melee components of barb/druid doesn't come close to a dclaw, and while it may be close to a paladin the party comp is much weaker when you can zap a shit ton of res via auras or offer a huge chunk of ED(and or attack speed).


Last edited by Angel on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 112
Bowzons are broken when geared correctly, there is no reason to buff them by changing GA.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:57 pm 
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Angel wrote:
kramuti wrote:
-agree: would be nice for the DoT spells from the sky had a marker first. It may be a pain to do depending on what spell had to be used to clone them. (it looks like Tstorm ot FoH clone...havent looked). Lightning ball does (meteor clone it looks like).

Therer are plenty of ways to live early on. Hell, i used skulls in armor and helm for regen for quite awhile. (granted I am playing a fury wolf, blah blah).

-kinda agree with oak/BO. It does seem harsh that a few gems can give you more life than a 20 skill point investment. (i would like to see about 30-35% max life for these. like blvl +lvl/(5 or 6). Still, I am very happy to see an end of Oak and BO characters standing in a corner, and the diversity it promotes is at least good.

Haven't played with guided arrow, but autopierce was taken away a long time ago for a reason. Giving some of the regular unique bows some pierce, or early sets (like flavie's) or the like may not be a bad idea.

In short, I can agree with some of your points, however, you post comes off simply as whining.

This patch so far is fun as all get out. Play some, and enjoy how much has been added into the patch.
There are so many quality of life changes alone, that you should at least find some solace in your apparent misery. (ty for a lot of map changes, and omfg thanks Rage for the ReturnTome).

It's not perfect, but the totality of the overhaul was very well done from what I have played. Making small changes in the future can make it even better. I will still enjoy this patch for quite awhile. :D


I played a blaze way back when, blaze itself would damage and force the enemy to not be reset. It was broken in terms of damage, but the useability and lack of ability to clear I personally think balanced out it's power. It's just dumb that the spells don't reset the 'hit' counter so to speak, so bosses just heal.

Skulls wouldn't keep me alive, hell even diamonds wouldn't with how much damage the spells do and how little the diamonds protect now.

As for GA pierce being removed, it was removed way back when in the earliest rendition of the game when melees ran supreme and amp was disgustingly high. It no longer needs to be so restricted.

Whining? Maybe. I made this post after crashing like 20 times in a row and getting fed up with the bullshit.


The reason you're getting so much hate is the way you presented your opinion. We are all very appreciative of what Mraw has done in his spare time to fix what was clearly broken from the last patch. Your post looks ungrateful and disrespectful, I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with you here in the manner you presented your opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:12 am
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Angel wrote:
Skulls wouldn't keep me alive, hell even diamonds wouldn't with how much damage the spells do and how little the diamonds protect now.


did you even try using diamonds? i saw your teammates gear at level 47, he said he didnt know what to upgrade.. he was definitely geared just right for andy in norm.. not diablo. go and gear up.. and unique quilted armor with 2 flawed diamonds isnt going to do it.. nor are 2 arcanna rings and a tarnhelm. at level 47.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:38 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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You can't run diamonds on a bowa without being nothing more than a leech. And even if I did it wouldn't do anything since the packets of damage are so high. There is just no reason to nerf every early game item to prohibit pierce when the skill is obviously designed in it's current rendition to pierce over and over.

Blaze is utterly worthless now, it's nothing more than a stepping stone to firewall, which does poor damage as of baal even twinked out. The upside is it causes no counters, so it's one of the few classes that can actually attack at range, since just about everything slams you with ranged counters now.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:49 am 
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better give every char 80k dmg multi hit spells and make all bosses 1 hp with no AI

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:39 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
better give every char 80k dmg multi hit spells and make all bosses 1 hp with no AI


HA


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:23 pm 

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Angel wrote:
You can't run diamonds on a bowa without being nothing more than a leech. And even if I did it wouldn't do anything since the packets of damage are so high. There is just no reason to nerf every early game item to prohibit pierce when the skill is obviously designed in it's current rendition to pierce over and over.


No. The skill is not designed in its current rendition to pierce over and over? How do I know that? Because it was explicitly redesigned NOT to pierce over and over because it is absurdly overpowered when it does. Amazon's are not going to be tanky, especially bowzons. However, they are already absolutely broken. They were last patch too. This patch they have the benefit of never even having to search for an ethereal version of bows which is a HUGE buff. If you cannot find a way to produce enormous amounts of damage and dodge the things necessary to stay alive, it is your fault and not a problem with the game. I got one to A5 Hell last patch as probably the strongest character in our group for 70% of the time when including all party buffs (Conc, HoW). This patch is already much easier, let us not buff a top 3 to top 5 class in the game. Go basically full damage (mostly dex 70%ish) and dodge the skills. This mod is not something where you can stand in one place and expect to live. Shoot, then move- kite. Get into a party with HoW and some Paladins to help you survive and do more damage. Use your Valk effectively, it is retardedly tanky and can probably tank most of the bosses in this game.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:23 pm 
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^ he had almost as many deaths as pious though running the full str barb...

probably equal :) haha


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:10 am 

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lol'd @ valk tanking most bosses in the game. All summons are complete garbage now.

Big boon having to craft death GMBs til it rolls 475+, as if it wasn't tedious enough to do with glyphs on a rare.

Yeah that's what I want mraw! I wasn't asking for counterplay to abilities that enemies cast at all. Succubus casts meteor, which ticks the ground and gives you this magical thing called a response. The ele foh just about instantly drops and has no counterplay other than running around constantly.

Also, the fuck is wrong with blood curse. It ticks through half my HP pool in 3-4 seconds, and an entire ES sorc's HP pool(which is booned greatly by the massive massive spike in HP naturally) throughout the course.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:26 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:12 am
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sorry for the imperfect patch that someone wanted to put together because he loves the game, not to cater to all your needs

its a work in progress. not everything was tested 100%, be happy its not the last patch, stop crying and go play. figure out how to beat it not just post your nonsense on the forums. have you tried golems before saying all summons are complete garbage? of course you have not. how about starting with that and stop posting your rubbish


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:17 am 
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Actually how about you get past Nightmare before you bitch about the game...

Better yet why don't you just fucking quit you ungrateful piece of shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:52 am 

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Aren't you the kid known for godmoding?


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:07 am 

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Angel wrote:
-snip-

Please lets not bring this up again.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:21 am 
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Angel wrote:
Aren't you the kid known for godmoding?


Aren't you the kid known for not knowing how to upgrade his gear when hes running with a tarnhelm in act 4?

scrub.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:51 pm 

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I feel like using godmode so much has numbed your brain to the point where you can't even realize I'm not the sorc.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:06 pm 

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hunterAS wrote:
Angel wrote:
Aren't you the kid known for godmoding?


Aren't you the kid known for not knowing how to upgrade his gear when hes running with a tarnhelm in act 4?

scrub.

I just made it to A5 normal, and finally found a tarnhelm which was an upgrade... not even kappa... I always thought you were exaggerating when you were saying there only 5 people who are decent at the game on SC, but after talking to some of the people left in normal. Holy Moly, these peope don't even understand how to play the game. I argued with a throw barb and bowzon that didn't understand they needed resists and absorb for Diablo. "How are we supposed to get dwarf stars" "How many do you have, 0, exactly"


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:12 am
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Aren't you the one who needed help on norm dury, and norm mephisto? and now you're complaining about a game you know nothing about?


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:53 pm 

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hunterAS wrote:
Actually how about you get past Nightmare before you bitch about the game...

Better yet why don't you just fucking quit you ungrateful piece of shit.


Does this post serve a purpose other than to demean someone? With less than 100~ active members I never thought I would see the day a moderator would be needed, but this topic should be deleted.

Obviously his post should be reworded to sound less like a complaint and more like constructive criticism. In the same light, everyone posting like this should man up and try to provide him with facts to prove why you think he is wrong, as from an outside perspective it appears as if (sans maybe two responses) everyone has replied with nothing but open hostility that lacks any counter argument whatsoever.

I'm sure I'll receive the same hate for this post, but the responses he received make me ashamed to be a part of this community.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:03 pm 
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Act like a bitch and you'll get treated like a bitch. I see no problems here.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:27 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Someone pointed out that it's balanced that the classes don't exist anymore, all it does is wash out their usefulness. Having a druid/barb is pointless when you can run a melee paladin now. The party will maintain similar health levels, but you get absurd amounts of strength from auras. Or run a dclaw and get a much tankier, higher damage melee unit. It's just silly, since the melee components of barb/druid doesn't come close to a dclaw, and while it may be close to a paladin the party comp is much weaker when you can zap a shit ton of res via auras or offer a huge chunk of ED(and or attack speed).


There will always be a team comp that is best no matter what. As long as each class is playable and enjoyable who the fuck cares? Sure this patch has issues but its on the right track to be really good. I've already started making changes for the next big patch (not anytime soon). And yes I will add a timer on the sky attacks so quell the waves of QQ I hear everyday.

My barb has no problems besides a few over tweaked enemies which are being fixed. Sure Dclaw sins are OP but that doesn't mean you HAVE to play one to get to hell. I got all the way to Hell A3 with a barb/druid duo and it was a cake walk besides said OP enemies. Druids are still really awesome in a party and so are barbs. Sob/How are awesome buffs and shout/bo/bc is welcome free buff even if you don't max them and barbs can hork for extra drops.

Why so many tears? Get out of norm/NM before you cry.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Convert wrote:
...I never thought I would see the day a moderator would be needed, but this topic should be deleted...


I could move it to the argument forum if need be.

This is kinda the way it has been since I have been around at least.
It's fine to not like/disagree with xyz changes. There have often been heated debates, both before and after patches.

Those that post their disagreements in some constructive manner are generally treated better. Those that seem to come off as nonconstructive often get this response.

As bad of a response as this has had, I will say that he has always been nice in game, and is willing to help others, etc (asked for an axe that fell, he forked it over). We've played a couple of times over 1.3ish and now. He isn't as ignorant as people want to make it seem.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:09 pm 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
Act like a bitch and you'll get treated like a bitch. I see no problems here.

This is good advice for all endeavors in life friends.

Edit: and @Convert, This is nothing new for the forums... Take a stroll through the argument forum. The entire reason it is there is for threads to be moved to it once they derail into bitching back and forth. I wish we had some of the amazing threads from the old forums. 12 solid pages of Lee or Jarl or Squelch or someone arguing.

As for Hunter, he can be a dumbass sometimes certainly. Everyone is though. We are all playing a game that is 15 years old. Everyone has an ego around the game as we all have felt we've played this game through and through enough times to be knowledgeable about it. We should all take a step back and remember we are all playing the microcosm of Diablo II that we obviously have a passion for and temper our egos when we talk to others.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:56 pm 
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snickers you are way too well-mannered right now and using logic and such on the internet wtf

on topic: did that hotfix patch go live last night? Fixing the drops? Do we need to redownload the mpq?

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:02 pm 
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Not yet, duff will update sometime and make a post. You'll need to download a new patch.mpq at that time.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:12 pm 
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In all fairness I made a really nice post here.. and he continued to be a cunt.. so he was treated like a cunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:02 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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In all fairness, it's quite difficult to measure the skill level of the game when every packet of damage drinks a juv, am I right hunter?


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:59 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:58 pm
Posts: 225
Angel wrote:
In all fairness, it's quite difficult to measure the skill level of the game when every packet of damage drinks a juv, am I right hunter?

You. Stop bringing this up. There is a thread on that topic already if you want to bump it, it is not the time or place to (re)start a flamewar about this.

There are no juvs this patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 112
Angel wrote:
In all fairness, it's quite difficult to measure the skill level of the game when every packet of damage drinks a juv, am I right hunter?


Perhaps, I can at least assure you he is better at this game than you, or I, will ever be regardless of if he was using god-mode or not (he wasn't). ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:42 am
Posts: 724
Ahh thanks buddy.. but way to get on my shitlist angel... even the video shows absolutely nothing, but thats a different subject.. anyways go fuck yourself :)


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions on the new patch
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:42 am 
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 4:10 am
Posts: 478
Just read trough all this shit lol.

Btw, I love this patch so far :D

Just my barb that dont like his new BO :/


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