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FoH
http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7217		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  slappyNuts [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  FoH
Kasia ran a foh/healer this ladder reset, been his main while we played from norm - hell

The nerfs to foh were pretty harsh. He has literally been a non-factor in terms of dps. We played a large portion of norm-nm with a WC barb, and he out damaged foh at every point.

With that said, he did level h.bolt>prayer>foh>sanc, so of course his dmg was pitiful in norm, but even now in hell his foh dmg is a non-factor. His gear has been decent all along, nothing crazy good or bad.

I'm assuming the testing done beforehand was end-game? I don't know the best way to go about it, but I think the early numbers should be looked at and adjusted. Going to need Kasia's input on the actual dmg numbers he had, I don't remember exactly.
Author:  Angel [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
I saw some heavily geared foh paladins last patch end game and their damage wasn't outstanding. The strength in the class was two-fold:

-Running double heal auras is broken as fuck
-Not having to slot the pierce means you could slot defense/utility

I would imagine that since salvation is acting as a conc aura, foh should be capable of dealing more damage than before, as every single foh player should be actively running pierce at this point. Which means that the enemy's resists should be sub 0.

The actual patch notes weren't very specific, but I'm assuming foh damage was left how it was and sanct was added as an increase to it. Meaning the damage should be much higher, and since you can set their resists lower than zero now with enough pierce built in damage should be higher. Though the class will be INCREDIBLY weaker due to not being able to run double heal auras.

And by incredibly weaker I mean it shouldn't even be played in the sense of trying to deal damage.
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Magic pierce can't bring a monsters resistance below 0. It's why magic damage sucks vs bosses compared to other elements.

FoH is such a hard skill to balance. We all know how it works; it's an instant hit ranged attack on a class that is innately tanky and can get double heal auras. Or it used to.

I'd like to see some numbers vs different hell bosses with high pierce.

FoH damage with sanc aura on, how long it takes to kill certain bosses...etc

The more details I have the better I can try and put it in a good spot.
Author:  slappyNuts [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
You're right, I think endgame, the damage vs non-demons will be higher than before. Whether or not the damage numbers were changed, the point is without the demon bypass the damage is non-existent.

The double heal auras is not the concern here. Matter of fact we ran zero for a large part of the game, just conviction or res auras. The issue here is foh dmg.

Pierce??? U SRS? I'm talking about an untwinked ladder reset run-
Kasia Din: lvl 88
Insight, Kiras, Skullders, Holy Cross, Hellmouth, Arachnids, nonskill boots, mana/skill rings.
FoH DMG with lvl 24 Sanctuary = 1650-2167
Has gone up maybe 400-500 dmg since NM. In normal FoH dmg was sub 1000.

Unmitigated, this was enough to kill bosses. Mitigated, it doesn't even scratch the HP regen that bosses have.

EDIT: mraw, I'll let you know how it progresses into late game as we get there. On the other hand, the geddon nerfs put it in a nice place. Running fclaw/geddon again and it still does well
Author:  kwikster [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Don't forget too, many complaints on FoH being op were skewed in that they low spawned every boss. Same holds true for many builds tho. Psn and FoH in low spawn would rape, but in a correctly spawned game they functioned properly. That's one reason my progress was slower than most, I simply detest that style of cheesing the game. My attitude is spawn equal to actual players fighting if you're gonna drag a few along, that's fine. I can remember seeing huge psn numbers back when I first joined (1.21z), with some high lr available, but no one played them then as amp+ phys dmg was still king. People didn't complain about psn until Blues (1.3a) patch and the horridly weak phys dmg fiasco we still haven't gotten quite right.

Slappy, I don't see FoH improving in boss killing much later even twinked out. Much gear had FoH skills nerfed, bypass gone so time will tell.
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
slappyNuts wrote:
FoH DMG with lvl 24 Sanctuary = 1650-2167
Has gone up maybe 400-500 dmg since NM. In normal FoH dmg was sub 1000.


Ok so I looked into it and whoever implemented the new FoH made it so that Holybolt does not increase the damage on the main hit. I'm not sure if that was intended or not but it does explain kasias horrible damage.

I suppose I need to add FoH to my list of edited skills in my patch.
Author:  kwikster [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Mrawskrad wrote:
slappyNuts wrote:
FoH DMG with lvl 24 Sanctuary = 1650-2167
Has gone up maybe 400-500 dmg since NM. In normal FoH dmg was sub 1000.


Ok so I looked into it and whoever implemented the new FoH made it so that Holybolt does not increase the damage on the main hit. I'm not sure if that was intended or not but it does explain kasias horrible damage.

I suppose I need to add FoH to my list of edited skills in my patch.

HB only ever added magic dmg to the bolts FoH produced, not the main strike. That goes back even to vanilla, and was same last patch.
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Ah ok. Well you see how often I've played a FoH pally. Haha
Author:  Angel [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Fairly certain magic pierce can bring monsters below 0, a few patches ago I saw large increases in damage when running enough pierce to drop them to negatives.
Author:  slappyNuts [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
I wish I kept better record of the progression, but I was just assuming that the dmg was low because he was leveling heals first. Maybe if you switch to maxing foh right at 36 and sanc right after the damage is enough through norm/nm, but it's at the point now where only hammers need to be maxed and without great gear the damage is still useless.

If we discover that maxing damage first works great then I'm ok with the fact that you need to choose between good heals or good dmg, that would be nice actually.

Anyone else with a FoH din please chime in. ISO more feedback
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
I just tested:

0 magic pierce
50 magic pierce
250 magic pierce

and all 3 did similar damage to the same mob

Which means that mob has 0 magic resist (it does I looked) and magic pierce doesn't bring resist below 0.
Author:  Angel [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Perhaps foh is set like that then? Test with a teeth necro?
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
I did. :P
Author:  Angel [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Strange.
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Always been that way.
Author:  Corr [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Level 87 here:
20 BH/HB/FoH with 0 Sanc: 5850-7485 at slvl 34 in Act 4 Hell
That is with +skills on every slot with +2 helm/amu and +0 from Insight

I can't say how it actually performs as we haven't needed this Paladin to deal damage to bosses yet but comparing the ease of use + the ability to heal I don't see anything wrong with that number when compared to Bone Spear.
Author:  Angel [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
60 bone necros do 7k spears, and it's aoe. I see a huge issue with it, since now you sacrifice your healing ability to deal damage, meaning you're no longer a utility class.
Author:  Corr [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Angel wrote:
60 bone necros do 7k spears, and it's aoe. I see a huge issue with it, since now you sacrifice your healing ability to deal damage, meaning you're no longer a utility class.


Except you're still healing with Insight/Purity and I have 10 skills I could put in Sanctuary if I wanted. Then there's FoHs range and autotarget
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
If he went full damage it would be 8775-11228 and that's with insight, it would be higher with a real caster weapon.

Still not great, but yeah.

You could max Hammer/Foh/Sanc First and get close to 10k damage at lvl 60ish on a pally, in theory.
Author:  slappyNuts [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
I guess maxing Sanc would have been much better for last, and kasia's din needs a lot more +skills. Corr's numbers look a lot more reasonable, but I'm still curious how he would perform against a boss. You guys should run him vs seals and dia tomorrow :)

Mrawskrad wrote:
You could max Hammer/Foh/Sanc First and get close to 10k damage at lvl 60ish on a pally, in theory.


if this is the case I'm actually completely cool with FoH damage taking til late game to start scaling (if you went hbolt/prayer first)
Author:  Mrawskrad [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
Just tested 20foh/20hammer/20sanc with +14skills

9-11k foh dmg
Author:  slappyNuts [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
for sure then
tl;dr gotta sacrifice heals for good dmg and vice versa. And I think that's a good thing.

still, corr, plz use foh tomorrow and let us know how it goes :)
meanwhile we'll get kasia's din suited up and see at what point he becomes a damage threat
Author:  slappyNuts [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
kwikster wrote:
Don't forget too, many complaints on FoH being op were skewed in that they low spawned every boss.

Slappy, I don't see FoH improving in boss killing much later even twinked out. Much gear had FoH skills nerfed, bypass gone so time will tell.


I somehow missed your post :oops:
You're right about the low spawn, but me and kasia were doing 2-3man spawn in NM so big spawn wasn't an issue.

We shall see about endgame :) With enough pierce and higher damage values I feel like it should be just as good
Author:  Angel [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FoH
There are several factors that make foh pretty lackluster.

The build is shitty in it's current rendition. It's damage was always meant to simply be supplementary DPS if your frontline/summons could handle the counters, and what made it a pretty decent build was that you could run full heal auras without sacrificing your already paltry damage.

Now you have to sacrifice your damage to run the auras, or your auras to run the damage.

On top of it the build line offers very little in aoe clearing and isn't a viable boss dps, so all in all the people playing them will simply be delegated to spamming holy bolt.
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