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 Post subject: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:23 am
Posts: 43
So we (i and some other guys) wanted to remember some good old times and run some HU. But, since those times was quite old (but good :D ) i'm sure there was alot of changes to characters. So,you give an advice on what builds currently good?

Possible categories: how easy/safe to play mid-game, how easy/safe to play end-game, how much rare items/runes required, how useful in party, how good in farming, able to solo bosses, able to solo uber bosses(?), best merc. What build is good to start from scratch, without stashed items? (Not necessary lots of text, 2-3 words or even simple yes/no on each build you played will do alot of help)

While some builds are pretty universal (sorc cold/fire/light - seems 3 different builds? cb+tk (remember my cb sorc... was really fun until died :) )\ligh+chain\possible nova+static , skele/golem/psn/bone necro, bow/LF/psn(saw lots of screens of those. that good?) ama, summon/ele dru, trap sin) i'm no good on melee characters (pally, barb, melee dru sin...)
Care to share yours experience? THx alot.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:54 pm 
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honestly the optimal team composition depends on how many players you will have. If you have more than 4 you can just do whatever, if its less than 4 you gotta make sure you have a variety of damage so you don't run into immunes. Of course having oak+bo makes life a lot easier, as well as some summons.

The "OP" builds right now are FoH and psn jav

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Poison javazon was hit with nerfs, they're functioning at about 50-66% efficiency. Still the best boss killer on anything not poison immune mainly because decoy can infinitely tank bosses, but also just because even at 50% their damage is pretty insane. Poison necro is just a weak, fragile, slightly better trash clearer but incredibly weaker boss killer than a poison zon. Rabies sacrifices boss killing AND trash clearing. The only saving grace on other poison builds is most of their damage stacks, so if you have a necro/zon, they both can deal damage(I don't believe it was like this previously?), but at the same time why have two of the same element?

FoH is alright, it doesn't kill bosses amazingly fast, but it's a safe build that can kill just about everything given enough time. Amazing for parties as well. Hammerdins seem to be obsolete. Teeth necros are strong additions to any party with a maxed curse, but beyond that they're only efficient at trash killing. Their boss potential was made utterly garbage, which is confusing since their damage was so utterly lower than any other caster on bosses, why nerf them into being trash clearers? Mindblast sins apparently kill bosses extremely quickly, but upon seeing an actual geared out one and asking for their numbers, it's basically necro level pierce/damage at a lower frame with weaker summons but a bit more personal survivability.

Melees made a comeback recently, but you have to have a maxed AMP necro to deal any substantial amount of damage. With maxed amp, you can rival caster DPS on bosses until you hit late act 4 and act 5. With gore amp, you fall off as early as late act 1.

Blaze sorcs are still strong, meteor sorcs are weaker variants that aren't as awkward to control. Fire bowazons fall below these two tiers, followed by essentially every other fire build.

Lightning trappers are probably the most potent lightning based builds, it clears well and can do bosses, where as just about everything else either doesn't deal enough damage or can't deal with counters to fight bosses.

Frostbite or hurricane druids do alright damage, they smear trash but bosses are difficult because you can't deal with counters. Blizzard sorcs are alright, still trumped by cold mercs who consecutively cast 2-3 blizzards though. Orb got buffed, but I haven't seen one, nor would I imagine from previous ladders of playing that they'd be any good. The problem wasn't how fast they can cast orb, a decrease in delay doesn't solve their problem. Their problem is their damage is too low and their shell out millions of counters.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:23 am
Posts: 43
Thank you much for answers! /bows. Pity no one else added anything...

Anything you can tell about fclaws druid and tk-sorc? Also, what is good starting (no stashed items...) character?

ps: Blaze sorcs? How in the hell one attacks anything that is standing still with a blaze? And luring bosses or lotta mobs after you... can't really see that on HC.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:36 pm 
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fclaw build is a gem. It can tank, it can dps, it has oak, its fun to play. I have made a fclaw for my first char of the past 3 ladder resets (meaning untwinked no stashed gear), and used it as my main all the way to kill LoS. First time I used it was in a duo with a psn zon, second was with a big party, this ladder was with a trio. Worked great in all situations. Up to act 5 normal it's basically a fstorm druid / oak bitch / tank depending on what you need for each fight. Once you get act 5 you start getting gear and have enough mana sustain to actually use fclaw.

I will make a fclaw again next ladder, simply because I can't think of anything better. Maybe I'll have to make frostbite instead if everyone that reads this makes a fclaw lol.


Blaze is the highest dps in the game hands down. It's not really viable solo, but all you need is a tank to lure bosses into the fire and tank for about 2 seconds while it dies. Seen it a lot on hc actually, but its more of a luxury, not really something people make at the beginning, like a chanter sorc.

btw add me on realm we can chat in more detail, I already added you

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Fclaw and hurricane are both shitty builds. But one note on it I'd point out is fclaw's aura is both inconsistent and lacks the slow provided by hurricane if you compare them.

What they both suffer is a ludicrous amount of synergies that makes it literally impossible to max out their damage, while also essentially having skills you have to max to be safe. Oak, Bear, Mastery, you need the health because the way the skill functions is on a very fast FPA, which turns into counters thrown right into your face.

The more damage you do, the more damage you take. You have poor access to damage that isn't fire(or cold, respectively) to deal with immunes, so it doesn't even make it an alright farming character.

I haven't seen any TK sorcs, the one CB sorc I saw went lightning claiming it was higher DPS, which leads me to believe TK got nerfed or they fucked with the synergies.

Quote:
Blaze is the highest dps in the game hands down. It's not really viable solo


Blaze is actually only viable(playthrough) as a solo, otherwise the monster's agro is too spread to be at all effective. You just keep blaze up and run around in circles in thick density or just through the mobs when moving on and they all die. Bosses you run in a tiny triangle and the density of the fire kills bosses almost instantly. The dumb thing about blaze is you can simply build 100% tank and survivability opposed to how almost every other class needs to almost all out dps to do decent damage, blaze outdamages everything while slotting rubies/diamonds/bers. In fact, at one point if you did slot damage, you'd actually run over the cap to damage per frame and lose out on damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Fclaw shitty build.


loooooool
I can solo andy, duriel, meph (it sucks), and baal on fclaw
I solo LoS din/barb/zon/sorc on my fclaw, shitty build I guess.
41k hp? 80k fclaw? 100k geddon? Untwinked ladder reset? I can do those too
I'm not tooting my own horn here, anyone who can drink potions and hold right click can too

Angel wrote:
I'd point out is fclaw's aura is both inconsistent and lacks the slow provided by hurricane if you compare them.


So the fbite way might be safer due to slow, but also has significantly lower dmg. Even with the inconsistency of geddon, it still does probably 3x dmg of hurricane.

Angel wrote:
What they both suffer is a ludicrous amount of synergies that makes it literally impossible to max out their damage, while also essentially having skills you have to max to be safe.

Wrong
20 oak, 20 lycanthropy, 20 fclaw, 20 geddon, 20 fstorm
You have exactly enough points at 101 to max all of them, plus have your carrion vine.

Angel wrote:
skill functions is on a very fast FPA, which turns into counters thrown right into your face.

Also wrong
Using Armageddon runeword puts you at 6fpa attack, which is perfect imo. Also, you have the option of NOT turning on geddon if your worried about counters--- OR, believe it or not, you have the option of not attacking every possible frame! :o
p.s. You should be tanky enough to deal with a reasonable amount of counters.

Angel wrote:
You have poor access to damage that isn't fire(or cold, respectively) to deal with immunes, so it doesn't even make it an alright farming character.


Merc deals 11k phys, my wep swap deals 10k phys. I can kill fire immunes if I need to. Also, max block + 40% dr = I farm ancients way and laugh my way all the way to azmo/belial. No immunes, best XP, best drops, more fun than farming tundra zzzz.

Angel wrote:
Blaze is actually only viable(playthrough) as a solo


I duo'd nightmare as a wc barb with a blaze sorc.

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Quote:
I can solo andy, duriel, meph (it sucks), and baal on fclaw


Can you do baal minions? You're chugging the shit out of juvs? My barb can do this without drinking so much as a juv except for meph. And melee is nerfed into the floor.

Quote:
So the fbite way might be safer due to slow, but also has significantly lower dmg. Even with the inconsistency of geddon, it still does probably 3x dmg of hurricane.


This may be true, but I find it hard to believe the value is 3x currently.


Quote:
Wrong
20 oak, 20 lycanthropy, 20 fclaw, 20 geddon, 20 fstorm
You have exactly enough points at 101 to max all of them, plus have your carrion vine.


I guess you don't like damage on your aura.

Quote:
Also wrong
Using Armageddon runeword puts you at 6fpa attack, which is perfect imo. Also, you have the option of NOT turning on geddon if your worried about counters--- OR, believe it or not, you have the option of not attacking every possible frame! :o
p.s. You should be tanky enough to deal with a reasonable amount of counters.


Oh boy that sounds effective, not attacking.

10k fclaw at 2 frames does more damage than 25k fclaw at 6 frames, not that armageddon RW adds that much damage.

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Merc deals 11k phys, my wep swap deals 10k phys.

So virtually nothing without a large CB value.
Quote:
I duo'd nightmare as a wc barb with a blaze sorc.

I commend you for completing the literal most pointless portion of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Can you do baal minions? You're chugging the shit out of juvs? My barb can do this without drinking so much as a juv except for meph. And melee is nerfed into the floor.


All but the fi one. I drink pots on darkness, not the others. This isn't about comparing builds is it??? This is about the viability of fclaw, which you are way off base about.

Angel wrote:
This may be true, but I find it hard to believe the value is 3x currently.

Last fully built cane druid I talked to said he capped out around 35k cane. Probably could hit 40k. Fbite was about 3/4 dmg of my fclaw as well (was 50 or 60k I think).

Angel wrote:
I guess you don't like damage on your aura.

It does tons of damage with only 3 synergies maxed. It does 80k with tanky gear, that is enough to kill every boss in the game and 1 shot all trash. All the geddon synergies are not meant for the fclaw build, otherwise they would be FCLAW synergies (you're not able to cast all those abilities in bear form... fstorm used to be able to be, which is why I have argued to change that synergy). Those other synergies are for human caster druids that want to build tons of damage and be a dps caster like a sorc. If you want to be a bear geddon bot, that's something different, that's not fclaw.

Angel wrote:
Oh boy that sounds effective, not attacking.

10k fclaw at 2 frames does more damage than 25k fclaw at 6 frames, not that armageddon RW adds that much damage.


When you're acting as the main tank, living is pretty effective. You keep talking about more damage, you must play sc. I don't die and I can kill everything, what more do you want?

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:04 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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I've seen legit fcs that are even twinked out for first playthrough not even able to do Andariel without a million juvs

Fraps a video of your 80k armageddon killing baal, don't use fireclaws.

We hit 6 digit hurricane values when you could get cold mastery, the runeword wasn't nerfed that hard.

Of course I play SC, hardcore is incredibly boring. You grind out extra levels for safety/strength and carry inventories full of juvs. The allure of having a character that has never died is taken away by save+exit. Sure you can play no s+e, but that doesn't mean others won't.

But beyond that is there is literally no server host currently I'd even feel comfortable playing on. The good hosts have come and gone.


Last edited by Angel on Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:14 am 
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I'm telling you are misinformed, or the fclaws you've seen build like shit, and obviously you haven't made one yourself.

Ask anybody on hc that has seen my druid the last 3 ladders. I make it every ladder reset and take it to los every time

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:06 pm
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Location: Poland
Hmm, we are playing for fun or for solo dps? Party can have 8 players or only 1? Player, who can solo everything, is the best player in the world? Stupid discussion.

And when SlappyNuts says that fclaw druid is good for bosses, minions etc, that druid is not good, because someone has seen only shit fclaw builds? Most of char builds are good, when player has experience and tactic. Think "how to kill that monster", not "I need the best dps". You can have best dps ever, but get 1 hit and die, so what is better, tactic or dmg?


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:45 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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LOL grinding out those 5 extra levels, stocking up on juvs, and running with the full spectrum of life buffs totally boils down to tactics. LOL


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:00 am 
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you know what, you're right. Fclaw is a terrible build I don't know why I play it. Glad we have experienced players like you to guide me in the right direction

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:04 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Glad I could point you in the right direction.

I mentioned a decent list of better fire-based characters, the only reason to play FC is if your party needs oak.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:06 am 
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Play HC and see Mr_Mayo in action. : )


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:07 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Hardcore is for cowards who can't run through the game without the crutch of outleveling the area, cubes full of juvs, and a full party full of HP buffs.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:12 am 
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lol he mad, not gonna sit here and measure dicks with this kid
Sorry bout the derailed thread, Hommit

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:13 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Frothing at the mouth mad obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:04 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:46 am
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fireclaws druid is one of stronges char in game for party or solo. if you can not tank + easy kill everything on it, you must be bad ^^
i know weapon swap for fire imm is hard :D

sc player says hc is to easy? sc has s+e too you know! rejuvi bomb if needed only because nothing else to use them for... sc player just throw body at boss and hope for the best or run around like chicken on pois noobzon. pro skill!
maybe small penis problem?

first page says poison stack. do you ever play befor or just not know how poison work from 2 player? maybe search real info first and not tell wrong stuff... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
do not listen to this angel :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:54 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
Yeah listen to the person who spams emoticons and creates broken English sentences.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:46 am
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yes next time i will talk in my native speak instead. fool....

you say nothing of why you can not play fclaw build well. what is problem with making very strong build work well? bad player? fear playing close range? i think yes. stay with noobzon that char fool proof 100% and not need brain power to fight at long range with op decoy. :D :mrgreen: :D


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:40 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Quote:
yes next time i will talk in my native speak instead. fool....

That makes sense, especially when the initial post was in English, the mod is in English, and the maker of the mod is from NA.

Quote:
you say nothing of why you can not play fclaw build well.

I broke down exactly why the build is sub-par. You're either too stupid to understand the words I'm using or too ignorant to read my posts in entirety.

Quote:
what is problem with making very strong build work well? bad player? fear playing close range?

It's a useable build, but it is by no means strong.
Blaze sorcs are tankier and literally deal the damage cap.
Fire zons deal more damage, and decoy+valk>facetanking.
Meteor sorcs deal far more damage, have greater mobility, and oskill boneprison tanks just about everything in the game.
Trappers deal more damage and tank better.

Fear of playing close range? Guess that's why I mained a barbarian.
Bad player? I guess that's why our group consistently has the strongest characters on the realm every ladder.

Quote:
not need brain power to fight at long range

Hate to break it to you, but weaving plague/javs together with decoys that need to be BO'd is far more skill intensive than holding right click fireclaws on a target and tapping your endless supply of juvs.

And as with all shitty eurotrash, you conclude your retarded pseudo-paragraph with a bunch of emoticons.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:25 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:46 am
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Only not strong if you are bad player. 3 times now i say this, and 3 times now is true. I also play blaze sorc, and i think every poss build for HU since 6 month from release (2006).

Yes is easy to target person for not having native english language, common thing for angry fat head to do. I expect this from such a person.

You break down bad info, learn please or stop comment.

fireZON. hide behind too strong summon, all know is too strong and many complain when it is made less op, so changed back for noobs. enjoy this.

meteor sorc no have 40k hp, so yes she deal more dmg. op summon item used as support for bad player who not know how to run and tele at short distance to hold in place. I learn this job + blaze in 07 before crap player crutch prison.

all example have 1 elem when merc die, fclaw have very good melee phys too, press "W" unless you have only 2 brain cell.

you make me laugh with claim of throw jav and hide behind low delay summon = skill. I play this build in 06 before buff make it op and it still was boring and easy job. word "weaving" not make a simple thing hard. fclaw "weave" around boss like boxer while deal 2 type of high dmg, also can throw out summon but why need with 40k hp.

you group is sc? then not strongest... i win lotto with 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ticket. hahahahaha!

now again attack me for not coming from eng speaking country. so stupid, you think the world have eng speaking country + europe only. how sad, maybe study globe for 20 second.

i stop reply, all i need to say, i have. bad noob player, i crush you playing 1-101 solo any char and no help or mule items, hc only, any time, but vs player who make game easy as he can only means he will cheat when i finish nm an he have to create again char #6 ^^.

i stop smiles, and leave one i make myself:
t('v' )


Last edited by Thorby on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:47 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
The strength of a character in d2, especially hell unleashed, is almost entirely based on the character and not the skill of the player. That is how these types of games are played. That said, since your tiny little mind can't wrap around the concept, being better at the game doesn't make a build magically become better.

What you fail to realize is having a high hitpoint pool is utterly fucking pointless with the various summons and more importantly the utterly broken hitpoint level of oskill bone prison. Who fucking cares if you have 100 hitpoints or 100,000 hitpoints when NOTHING hits you.

Holy shit your logic is on par with some of the dumbest human beings I've ever met. I would wager that there are animals smarter than you.

There's a reason whatever shitty country you come from forced you to learn English, by the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:05 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:46 am
Posts: 4
yes i understand, you make game easy with things not intended to. you are bad player. is same as ww bug. add for fun, but can be exploit, so bad player grab it. very common.

being bad at the game means you can only abuse game flaws. you say you do this.
yes i am dumb, but can beat old game truly, not exploit it. so you are extra dumb?

i choose to learn english, learning is good. i know i am not best with it, but I do not make it easier with online translate to look better. I accept i am still learning and have no shame for it.
and i do not insult your country as 1 person is not a guide of whole country. sad sad person.
stay angry >< goodbye and take care.
t('v' )


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 Post subject: Re: Seeking advice from experienced players
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:32 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Must be a pathetic existence when the capacity to display emotion is restricted to making emoticons.

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abuse game flaws

The fuck are you even talking about?


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