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 Post subject: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:20 am 
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Are you feeling, that this patch is much easier than older patches? Everytime i was scared before boss fights, that was a real challenge. Now they are dying like a pussies. Normal is really easy, i dont know what nightmare/hell are like. I hope these will be extreme that i was always like.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:52 am 

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Maniac-FB wrote:
Are you feeling, that this patch is much easier than older patches? Everytime i was scared before boss fights, that was a real challenge. Now they are dying like a pussies. Normal is really easy, i dont know what nightmare/hell are like. I hope these will be extreme that i was always like.


What char you playing?


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:47 am 
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How far are ya in norm sc - hc ?

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Druid mauler, HC, i'm starting a4 and doing solo Mephisto damn fast. I remember that bosses in normal was soloable when i was 1-2 acts up, but, yes, i never played pure melee char, but i see other chars are the same fast. Too fast, this game was harder i think. Ofcourse, i will finally check it in Castle of Destruction and nightmare/hell. But in my opinion everything looks easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Normal has been easy since 1.21z. Terry made it so that it was purposefully an intro at that time.
1.3b was harder due to pretty serious nerfs to str/dex bonuses and skill adjustments. Melee was hit the hardest by quite a bit.
The beta was harder due to the PDR formula...for melee anyway.

See what you think about the later difficulties. If it is still way too easy then let it be known.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:51 pm 

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The only thing that has been changed about the prime evils is their physical resists and amplify damage values. So if you are using a melee with a maxed amp necro yes it will be quite noticeably easier than every patch since 1.21z, and this is definitely intentional. Otherwise their stats are identical to the last few releases.

Physical resists are pretty close to 1.21z values on prime evils. For example some physical resists in hell on 1.21z and current patch 1.3f:

1.21z:
130% Meph/Diablo(80% base+50% boss hat)
145% Baal(90% base+55% boss hat)
-90% amp from a 1pt necro
=
40% physical resists for Meph/Diablo
55% physical resists for Baal

1.3f:
115% Meph/Diablo(75% base+40% boss hat)
125% Baal(85% base+40% boss hat)
-70% amp from a maxed necro
=
45% physical resists for Meph/Diablo
55% physical resists for Baal

As you can see the numbers come out very close. The biggest difference being you need a necro with maxed amp in 1.3f to hit those values. Anyone still saying melee are shit should really try one out with a necro partner using max amp.

Maniac-FB wrote:
Druid mauler, HC, i'm starting a4 and doing solo Mephisto damn fast. I remember that bosses in normal was soloable when i was 1-2 acts up, but, yes, i never played pure melee char, but i see other chars are the same fast. Too fast, this game was harder i think. Ofcourse, i will finally check it in Castle of Destruction and nightmare/hell. But in my opinion everything looks easier.

How's your gear? I remember soloing normal Mephisto with a shitty ol zealer in 1.21z with some serious twinking and effort. A big boy melee like a mauler shouldn't have many problems tackling him solo this patch provided he has pretty good gear, and stuff like Tancred's set at that level is easily obtainable and quite powerful for it's level.

Did you use a source of amp or decrep? I'm not really surprised you solo'd him though, as kramuti mentioned normal was intentionally toned down a long while back, and physical damage has received quite the buff this patch.

Keep us updated on your progression if you want, I'm interested to hear how it goes if you're doing it all solo.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:43 pm 

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You must be one of the lucky ones that can solo him because I had to ask Ben to help me with Duriel even - he 1 shotted all my minions including my merc...

I am a summoner Nec however but lets be realistic here... I literally suck ass with pretty decent gear... I have +10 to all skills at lvl 36 and I am in A3 (just got eye) and am clearning trash ok but everyone else like mini bosses or bosses own me.. Golems die 1 hit and if there are no bodies around and I can't summon Skellys... Im pretty much toasted... I can see it now... Mephisto has slained 25 minions + Ben lol.. There is no way I will be able to kill him.

I guess this might be a good time to ask how I can improve him?

I maxed out skeleton and now maxing skeleton mastery - should be done soon - then I am not certain to either start on skeleton archers or max the Raise Death Knight or whatever that guys name is... I also have blades and golems to think about... do i max any of those? How about Amp? I only have 1 point into Amp but its lvl 12 and it's pretty good to be honest so I don't see a point in maxing it unless I am not seeing something here...


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:57 pm 
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You're never going to be able to take bosses as a summon necro. Your summons won't hold up. Once you max out mastery though you will notice a big difference with tougher trash.

Your main job with bosses is going to be curses and maybe 1pt in blades to spam them on the boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:58 pm 

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Necro summoner's aren't meant to be played like that. Summons and mercs take too much extra damage from prime evils to be effective boss killers. The strength of the necro summoner comes from it's versatility. Late game it's one of the easiest, safest farmers in the game capable of farming almost any trash area and many sub bosses. And it's ability to curse and spam blades always makes it an asset to a team during a boss fight. It's basically a support character for boss fights(prime evils, not sub bosses, they excel at many sub bosses if you play them right). Also the reason your summons are dying so fast in normal is because you have no life buffs. As soon as you hit a party with oak or bo they're survivability will increase dramatically. They also receive significant life bonuses in NM and Hell.

In my opinion a summon necro should at the very least invest 15 points into amp this patch to reach the -70 cap late game with a reasonable amount of +skills. The soft point progression is too low to hit the -70 cap without investing some hard points. Personally I maxed it first because I'm rolling with a nearly all physical party.

Death Knight isn't worth maxing IMO, it's not recast-able without a corpse and it's a single summon. It serves little purpose for an expensive 20 point investment. One point it and it'll do fine with max skel mastery.

Archers won't start to shine until late Hell when you can have your own life buffs, fanat, or most importantly teleport. I'd max them last if you're investing in them. They are nice supplemental damage though and I felt they were worth the investment last patch.

Golems I wouldn't personally invest in past the one pointers. Clay is the only worth while one on bosses and on the harder bosses you'll be hard pressed to get a hit off to apply the slow. It's better to spam the low cool down spirit blades, which are effective even with one point.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:41 pm 

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drrod wrote:
Necro summoner's aren't meant to be played like that. Summons and mercs take too much extra damage from prime evils to be effective boss killers. The strength of the necro summoner comes from it's versatility. Late game it's one of the easiest, safest farmers in the game capable of farming almost any trash area and many sub bosses. And it's ability to curse and spam blades always makes it an asset to a team during a boss fight. It's basically a support character for boss fights(prime evils, not sub bosses, they excel at many sub bosses if you play them right). Also the reason your summons are dying so fast in normal is because you have no life buffs. As soon as you hit a party with oak or bo they're survivability will increase dramatically. They also receive significant life bonuses in NM and Hell.

In my opinion a summon necro should at the very least invest 15 points into amp this patch to reach the -70 cap late game with a reasonable amount of +skills. The soft point progression is too low to hit the -70 cap without investing some hard points. Personally I maxed it first because I'm rolling with a nearly all physical party.

Death Knight isn't worth maxing IMO, it's not recast-able without a corpse and it's a single summon. It serves little purpose for an expensive 20 point investment. One point it and it'll do fine with max skel mastery.

Archers won't start to shine until late Hell when you can have your own life buffs, fanat, or most importantly teleport. I'd max them last if you're investing in them. They are nice supplemental damage though and I felt they were worth the investment last patch.

Golems I wouldn't personally invest in past the one pointers. Clay is the only worth while one on bosses and on the harder bosses you'll be hard pressed to get a hit off to apply the slow. It's better to spam the low cool down spirit blades, which are effective even with one point.


OK Ben that helps a lot... So once I max my skele mastery, which is really soon, what do you suggest. Given that you have a party that you are progressing with and I am typically solo, I am not sure that I want to invest more into AMP at this time because 12 skill pnts looks good for right now. OR should i do it anyway because more damage will be taken by enemies even in solo mode.

I assume if I wanted more support, I would roll with archers right? What's the max number of archers I could summon at any given time?

With what you mentioned above, it seems that you could max out your needs fairly quickly... Skeleton + Mastery + Amp.... thats 60 points. That can be done by level 55 or so right. With you mentioning to put only 1 point into golems and blade, that will leave me with tons of skill points to spare. What else do you suggest?


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:57 pm 
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quick and nonthorough reply. You shouldn't max skeles first...put some into them, but then quickly max mastery instead. Nearly everyone makes that mistake. Your skeles still won't live on prime evils...ever really...but on early subbosses you can win most fights if you do this, and have a little gear at your disposal...nothing insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:02 pm 
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drrod wrote:
How's your gear? I remember soloing normal Mephisto with a shitty ol zealer in 1.21z with some serious twinking and effort. A big boy melee like a mauler shouldn't have many problems tackling him solo this patch provided he has pretty good gear, and stuff like Tancred's set at that level is easily obtainable and quite powerful for it's level.

Did you use a source of amp or decrep? I'm not really surprised you solo'd him though, as kramuti mentioned normal was intentionally toned down a long while back, and physical damage has received quite the buff this patch.

Keep us updated on your progression if you want, I'm interested to hear how it goes if you're doing it all solo.


I was longtime farming Hatestorm to get some good gear. Tanrr Gorerod and heavy equip, life/AR/str charms. 16% CB, 15% LL (+10% feral rage = 25%), maxed lycantrophy and werebear (big lifebulb, defense and AR) and a2 might merc with eth gorerod + heavy cb/enchanced dmg equip. Sometimes he is still alive after boss fight, but drunk after massive juvs consumption ;) Im playing with necro friend, so he using amp, but i was killing Mephisto alone many times without curses.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:21 am 
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Um okay.. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:47 am 
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Even in 1.3a melee was deadly in norm/nm. Me and relay shredded those difficultys with my melee zon and his barb + decrep charges. NM baal waves were down in 60-90 sec each without external oak/bobot. It was just hell difficulty whare bosses started to be unbreakable PI etc.

If you put time into your gear as a melee you should have very little trouble. Report back once you get into hell difficulty as thats was whare the problems were.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:36 pm 
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drrod wrote:
Golems I wouldn't personally invest in past the one pointers. Clay is the only worth while one on bosses and on the harder bosses you'll be hard pressed to get a hit off to apply the slow. It's better to spam the low cool down spirit blades, which are effective even with one point.


Not quite right . Golems with maxed golem mastery can take quite the beating, tanking and aggroing several sub bosses for half a minute - enough to keep recasting them, and even more - . Sometimes the blades don't cut it at all, dying at the very moment they are being summoned, leaving you defenseless.
When that happens, having a sturdy golem is always more reliable and desirable.

All my necros always went for max. golem mastery, were them summoners, psn, or bonemancers. And I never regreted that.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:51 pm 

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Sub bosses aren't the problem. I do use 1pt clay on prime evils from time to time though, depending on the party/boss. Spamming blades doesn't really do shit when you've got a decent dedicated player tank holding the boss in place.

A lot of the problems I have with golems is just the cool down. If you don't have someone constantly keeping a prime evil boss in place, I'd rather use blade spam to keep them somewhat stationary so the rest of my theory craft party can focus on dealing damage rather than kiting. Rather than throwing out a golem which lasts a few seconds, then having the boss run free for the rest of the CD chasing down stray oaks or squishy casters.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:07 pm 
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I always liked golems, clay is weak as shit but it shines sometimes when you get a lot of incoming cold damage (cold dragon).

Nothing wrong with maxing force/iron IMO but i wouldn't do all of them. Theres much better things to spend your points on. Using golems over bladespam on prime evils is just adding unneeded risk into the equation, especially if your main tank is struggling or you don't have one.
When you can only keep 1 up on a boss fight, your other golems are just 60 points you ain't getting any benefit from if you do max them all.

Throwing clay behind a boss between waves of AoE is always nice though.

Maxed IG + amp > hell andy.
Maxed IG + amp >>> cursed extrastrong sub bosses (put 4 blades up before recasting it unless you are retarded).

Maxed force is just a meat shield, not gonna be soloing anything with it alone, its just kinda needed if you are making a "golem focused" nec.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:34 pm 

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Ok so I died with my lvl 50 to who else then what Kev mentioned above, White Dragon :).

I decided to remake after I also lost a PSN Java... This time I am going all Skele and are maxing Mastery first, then raise skeleton, and finally skeleton archer... Or do you guys feel that I should just stop after I max my second skill (raise skeleton) and start dumping into Amp? I am playing solo most of the time so I would like your opinion.

The cool part is that this time around (as opposed to last time when I was investing 1 pnt into Golems) that with full Hsarus's Set (Defense Aura) and 8 skeletons, 3 archers, and an a1 mercenary, I was able to take down Andy solo :). This was a huge relief as I think I did it right this time with investing nothing into Golems.

I just got to A2 and will be getting an A2 merc... with the Hsarus Set + Might Aura, I think my guys might be doing well this time around. I am however scared when I get to Duriel because for some odd reason, my skeleton's stand around half the time and don't even hit him. I might have to ask someone's help on that part.

Lastly, 2 more questions:

1. Might the next patch have a skill like Netherworld Rises does where you can summon dead corposes and raise minions from that? I think it might be a good idea because when you are fightning bosses (even if it might take a long time) I would like to be able to raise my minions without having to restart the game everytime they die - it gets very frustrating especially in areas where you can't even access corsposes such as after Diablo is let out or in Duriels den...

2. Will there be a string fix to reflect the damage of the archers in both Skeleton Mastery and on their actual skill tab?


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:06 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Maxed force is just a meat shield, not gonna be soloing anything with it alone, its just kinda needed if you are making a "golem focused" nec.


I would like to bring it to your attention that a Force Golem does not contain any meat.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:24 pm 
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oZio wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Maxed force is just a meat shield, not gonna be soloing anything with it alone, its just kinda needed if you are making a "golem focused" nec.


I would like to bring it to your attention that a Force Golem does not contain any meat.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Lmfao

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:02 pm 

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Come on guys stop the spam :) HELPPPP


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:36 am 
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oZio wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Maxed force is just a meat shield, not gonna be soloing anything with it alone, its just kinda needed if you are making a "golem focused" nec.


I would like to bring it to your attention that a Force Golem does not contain any meat.


disagree

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:47 am 
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slappyNuts wrote:

disagree


clay golem ; mud, dirt, sand. Unleechable -> no meat
blood golem ;flesh, bones, menstrual flow . Leechable -> meat
iron golem ; iron, iron, iron. Unleechable -> no meat
force golem; fire, ashes, murder thoughts. Unleechable -> no meat

flawless logiccccccc_C_c!

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Quote:
Will there be a string fix to reflect the damage of the archers in both Skeleton Mastery and on their actual skill tab?


The display of damage of skeles in the skill tab vs the hotkey has been borked ever since I remember in vanilla. I have not used archers, but I imagine it is the same issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:38 pm 

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Eh, someone previously mentioned that clay golem needs to strike to apply the slow target effect. Is this true? It seems like the clay golems in Nihls temple slow you down pre-hit. Maybe it's different for players? Anyone know for sure? I would definitely like to know the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Difficulty
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:27 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Report back once you get into hell difficulty as thats was whare the problems were.

Absolutely done mauler with amp necro partner.

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