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 Post subject: CB2
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:10 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Change it to 8 player spawn then theres no chance of anyone single spawning. That will also lower the effectiveness of CB.


Was this a joke or do you really not understand how CB and % based damage works?

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Yeh I dont understand how it works... Incase you didn't realise it was me that posted the mechanics of it. If you increase the spawn it takes more crushing blows to kill the boss, what part of that wasn't clear to you?

Crushing Blow
CB: damage
-Default: 1/4th
-vs. Players: 1/10th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/10th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/8th
-with missile weapons, default: 1/8th
-with missile weapons, vs. Players: 1/20th
-with missile weapons, vs Hirelings: 1/20th
-with missile weapons, vs Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/16th
This is based on base hp not the multiplier from people in game. base is 300% in HU so the HU table looks like this. (soon will be 200%)

-Default: 1/12th
-vs. Players: 1/30th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/30th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/24th
-with missile weapons, default: 1/24th
-with missile weapons, vs. Players: 1/60th
-with missile weapons, vs Hirelings: 1/60th
-with missile weapons, vs Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/48th
This is with 1 to 4 players in game with more players in game the boss life will go up more so the % will go down even further.

Full game spawn is 600% so the new table would look like this:
-Default: 1/24th
-vs. Players: 1/60th
-vs. Hirelings: 1/60th
-vs. Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/48th
-with missile weapons, default: 1/48th
-with missile weapons, vs. Players: 1/120th
-with missile weapons, vs Hirelings: 1/120th
-with missile weapons, vs Champions, Uniques, Bosses: 1/96th

Thus lowering its effectiveness, and since its based on remaining life it gets very very weak at 50% boss life, 1/96th and lower and lower as it goes

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:41 pm 
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ok - so you weren't joking, you really don't understand. let me clarify it for you using the numbers you posted

300% HP Boss CB = 1/24th (which is current)
600% HP boss CB = 1/48th

I can see where you might think - oh, right CB is less effective. The math says differently. Lets say some boss has 8 million HP. Bump him up to 300% and he hits 24 million. Run him up to 600% and now it is 48 million. No matter how you slice it though, crushing blow does 1 million dmg because it is % based.

You get the same result with a boss with 10 million HP, the math is just a little trickier. 300% is 30 million, 1/24th of which is 1.25 million. 600% is 60 million, 1/48th of which is 1.25 million.

So crushing blow doesn't care how many people are in the game, it gives you the same dmg output. HOWEVER, every other form of dmg suffers dramatically. That 10k dps you are kicking out now takes an assload longer to kill a 60 million HP boss than a 30 million HP boss. Thus if CB stays the same and everything else gets weaker, CB becomes more and more important as the #players the game is based around increases.

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:10 pm 
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I didn't say raise the bosses life. I said raise the spawn in order to half the damage crushing blow deals, but thanks for puting words into my mouth... Not once there did I say anything about raising bosses hp.

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:15 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I didn't say raise the bosses life. I said raise the spawn in order to half the damage crushing blow deals, but thanks for puting words into my mouth... Not once there did I say anything about raising bosses hp.


huh?
you said change it to 8 player spawn. According to your table that would be 600% HP monsters and 1/48th dmg CB.

How is that inconsistent with what I illustrated to you?

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:45 pm 

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pure, i think blue is saying that no matter what, CB still is % based. he is right. if you raise the spawn, which effectively raises monster hp, you actually RAISE CB damage, because now it does the same % of a larger amount of life. the only way to reduce CB effectiveness is to either nerf its % or nerf monster life.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:48 pm 
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LOL you still not grasping this. raise the listed spawn to the max to reduce cb effectiveness as low as it can go. Keep bosses life the same as they are now.

300% - 24 million boss hp - 1 million damage first cb
Now raise the spawn but dont touch the actual life of the boss
600% 24 million boss hp - 500k damage first cb

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:50 pm 
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The game doesn't work that way. When you raise the spawn, the game engine raises the boss's life.

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 Post subject: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:55 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
LOL you still not grasping this. raise the listed spawn to the max to reduce cb effectiveness as low as it can go. Keep bosses life the same as they are now.

300% - 24 million boss hp - 1 million damage first cb
Now raise the spawn but dont touch the actual life of the boss
600% 24 million boss hp - 500k damage first cb


didnt see the part where you mentioned keeping boss life the same. but if thats the case, raising spawn will reduce CB effectiveness, because (as pointed out in your thread) cb is based off of monsters' base life. the multiplier doesnt touch CB damage iirc.

blue: are you sure? i was always under the impression that CB bases itself before the multiplier kicks in. ill have to ask baerk to get confirmation.


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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:03 pm 
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muleofal wrote:
didnt see the part where you mentioned keeping boss life the same.


That's because he didn't say it. He is just fabricating things now to try and avoid looking like the putz that doesnt' understand how CB works even though "he was the one that posted the mechanics of it."

muleofal wrote:
blue: are you sure? i was always under the impression that CB bases itself before the multiplier kicks in. ill have to ask baerk to get confirmation.


I most certainly could be wrong, but I would think that if you start tinkering with boss HP and player # in the game you could start to run in to some serious issues, unless of course you want boss HP to remain static despite the number of people in the game. That seems like a bit of a bad balance call to me though even if it was possible. baerk is most certainly tons more knowledgable than me on game mechanics.

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:11 pm 
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damn it! stupid split topic didnt' work the way I wanted. I was hopin to split off that long winded side topic in to its own thread. I guess it was SO long winded that it couldn't even be split :P


ROAR! learned new moderator skillz and merged two topics.

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 Post subject: one more
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Blue_myriddn wrote:
That's because he didn't say it. He is just fabricating things now to try and avoid looking like the putz that doesnt' understand how CB works even though "he was the one that posted the mechanics of it."


Sorry I didn't realise I was talking to a retard or I would have treated you as such and spelled it out in kiddie fashion.
Quote:
Change it to 8 player spawn then theres no chance of anyone single spawning. That will also lower the effectiveness of CB.

Did I say raise the life to 600%? no I said change it to 8 player spawn

I love how you claim I don't know how something I myself posted. Perhaps I dont clarify things as well as you do. I don't talk to fools like you very often and if I'm talking to someone who "Should" know a little about the topic I shouldn't have to treat them like a child and explain the whole mechanics of something to them.
A plumber working on a building site asks another plumber to disconect the cold water feed. He sure as shit don't need to tell the other plumber to turn the water off. He should know how it works. Do you see my point now? I wont bother giving any more feedback on anything. I'm sick of having you claim everyone is wrong except you and your view on things should be implemented. You are full of shit for 1 and you are such a snob it is laughable. Maybe if you played through propperly every now and then I would possible give you a little credit. your first char was carried through most of the game and your second one you used your high level druid and a high hammerdin to get past baal. The reason I don't take your views seriously is because you don't ever put your godly insight to practice when it really matters. I'm not saying I don't skip areas etc. I do occasionaly. I do however have at least 3-4 chars that I play unrushed and ofc my first char is always untwinked too. That is one insight you can't claim to have this season. I also have a larger assortment of chars I have played this season with many types of damage. I also have had multiple chars into act 5 hell and was the second bunch to guardian on Hc. Your "theorys" etc are bull shit in comparison to solid play time and experience with build types.

Ps. Met 6 people on other mods in the last week who used to play here but no longer bother with HU as you are trying to slowly grind it into shit and have stood in the way of positive changes. There are many more who dont bother with the forums or with feedback on topics as whats the point with you roaming around

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:38 pm 
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Haha wow I never thought I'd see the day where playing through the game would be an argument used against blue... oh how the times have changed!

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:52 pm 
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Dod: Though I do understand why you and blue butt heads relatively often, there are others out there that flat don't agree with things like spawn at players 8. Many of us don't have teams. We get stuck in some places because we can never even get to the point of twinking a single character. Many of the things that you suggest make this an even more disparaging picture.

I understand that the mod is now too easy for some, but I am really hard pressed to believe that you speak for the vast majority. You may speak for the majority of the long time vets, but you are not even considerate of new players which do not have the vast amounts of knowledge about this mod that you do.

I agree that some of blue's tests aren't really great or illuminating. On the other hand, many of the things that you state only make the gap between a newer or more casual player and the elitists even worse. You both have biases, some of which are bullshit on both sides whether it comes from ignorance, boredom or just different views.

edit to point out to whom this is intended.

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:33 am 
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no, you missed the point of raising it to 8 player spawn. bosses health would be the same as they are now in a 4 player game, It would just reduce cb effectiveness

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:13 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
no, you missed the point of raising it to 8 player spawn. bosses health would be the same as they are now in a 4 player game, It would just reduce cb effectiveness


you get a chance to speak with baerk? i havent reached him yet, but ive sent him a message on the aftermath forums and hoping for a reply.

in either case, i think i remembered something that may be a much easier solution than raising player spawn, which comes with some drawbacks to it:

- pretty large increase in experience (i think) = may throw off the leveling curve that keeps difficulty consistent with monster areas.
- making it MUCH easier for bigger parties (if we keep monster life the same but double the spawn, then it only gets easier with more players...at least in the current system, it promotes party play but penalizes large parties where most members arent contributing at all...like rushing parties relying on one char-->increasing boss life--> longer rushes...i dunno, i feel like there needs to be some drawback to big 6-8 player parties because they get so many benefits such as increased damage output spread over a wider range of elements, increased survivability from having more characters and mercs to split the monster mobs more thinly, a wider range of curses, auras, buffs, summons, etc that are shareable amongst all)

i think on aftermath we discussed CB, and its not a very prevalent mod there...its very useful but its not something completely necessary to take down bosses. i think CB is softcoded and can be changed to do a smaller % of life. we should check into that. a smaller %damage of CB means we can leave the spawn alone and not bring in any other issues to take care of.


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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:54 am 
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muleofal wrote:
in either case, i think i remembered something that may be a much easier solution than raising player spawn, which comes with some drawbacks to it:


There is an even EASIER solution than all of that. The extra bonus is that Soulmancer has already implemented it.

Rather than increasing spawn, just decrease the spawn. It is a win across the board! By decreasing monster life, you reduce the potency of Crushing blow compared to other skills.

muleofal wrote:
i think CB is softcoded and can be changed to do a smaller % of life. we should check into that. a smaller %damage of CB means we can leave the spawn alone and not bring in any other issues to take care of.


Pretty sure it is too - and pretty sure that Soulmancer has already done that here.

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Don't believe that changing around the hp spawn table will not stop players from single spawning. There is a damage increase about 6% in nm and 12% in hell per player that is hardcoded. Even if life is the same people will single spawn to get the weakest boss.


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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:31 pm 

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totally forgot about the damage increase from higher player spawns. thanks for reminding me rawk (how have you been by the way?). baerk mentioned the damage increase from higher player spawns to me a couple weeks back when i was playing AM.

i have to agree with rawk on a lot of points too (of which he mentioned in the suggestions page for balancing amp and CB)... CB is too available overall. i also think a decrease in the spawn amount just makes the game easier. we ONLY want a decrease in CB effectiveness... so reduce the availability of it and reduce its %damage, and this wont affect anything else but only lead to more varied parties, because currently its "oh you dont have a necro and some CB melee, yea ok bye"


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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:23 pm 
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Fair enough DoD: I apologize if I misunderstood your intent.
And blue, I didn't mean to poop on you. You do quite a bit for the community as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:22 am 
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there was nothing wrong with the spawn as it was before. lowering the spawn makes Cb more effective. it was 300% now its 200% so it takes 1/3 less crushing blows to kill the bosses. Nice...

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 Post subject: Re: CB Mechanics and Boss life
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:52 am 

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yea i never really wanted a lower spawn, just a reduced effectiveness CB, which i found out is 100% hardcoded in terms of the percentage of damage it does. lowering the spawn just gives us things that die quicker, and gives people more incentive to spawn at lower player amount then bring the cavalry back in.

i would be fine with just removing CB from almost all sources. no character should be reaching more than 5-10% maximum at any given time. one way we can do this is to remove %CB from ber runes on weapons (which has the potential of making very high CB weapons). another thing we can, and i think should, do is to remove CB from certain weapons that already have plenty of other bonuses available. every weapon should have its niche, and i think CB goes on big mauls/clubs/maces that are generally slower but stronger damage (and then keep them slower). Save other mods like ias, ar, deadly strike for things like axes and swords.


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