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Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z next patch?
Yes 58%  58%  [ 21 ]
No 42%  42%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 36
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 Post subject: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:18 pm 

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 8:51 pm
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Place your vote!

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:21 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 am
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+1. i kind of yearn for the days when most all chars were viable. the non stop bickering and resistance to change here pretty much dooms any hope for a future patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:22 pm 

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Pious wrote:
+1. i kind of yearn for the days when most all chars were viable. the non stop bickering and resistance to change here pretty much dooms any hope for a future patch.


+1 ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:42 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:18 pm
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At one point i want to at some i dont, but at least back then i could play psn necro :D And my ww barb was amazing :D I voted for yes.

Out of my hat of sugegstions i was thinking about asking Soulmancer for pemission and open second europen realm with 1.21z version, just for ppl who are haters of 1.3 and 1.3b patches :D


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:47 pm 
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haven't there been some good changes since then? wouldn't we be just tossing those out the window? What's missing from 1.21z that everyone misses? Can't we just change/revert those?

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:59 pm 

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I just wanna see votes*

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Last edited by jaykayrox on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:17 pm 
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I never played 1.21z so I don't know, but as a noob it gives me a headache when there's massive changes every time a ladder reset comes around and I feel like I just figured out the game.

From what I've gathered though, 1.21z sounds like b.net for melee except with ctc amp instead of life tap and there are new bosses. I like playing melee, but holding right click to kill a boss isn't my cup of tea.

Didn't vote since all I can do is theory craft on the subject, but I would lean toward just changing our current patch to meet whatever it is that you love so much about 1.21z. You say no progress is being made toward a new patch, but kev just opened a thread with modifications for testing. Pious and others rallied everyone together to make this patch happen, what is stopping that from happening again? We have more time to prepare, and less of a flame fest with Blue gone. Sounds like reverting is for nostalgia or out of laziness of not wanting to make a new patch

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:18 pm
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We miss curse progression form 1.21z we miss cb, we miss ress. Actualy it is hard to say for some pro players but we miss easyness and simplyness of 1.21z.
I know many will rage on me for saying that but only few players find ount changes making game hard, most of other ppl including me found out changes retarded and frustrating to play with. Especialy slashing by half ress/dr/mdr at sets, it hurst badly for new players, at 1.21z i could take any build out of pool (there always is exception) toss it into easy getable set and play with it funny , and efficient enough to even make it up for dying it could provide. Now there isnt any set worth of wearing for even a second, cos they provide such less ress that they make you die each time you leave city. Again at this point there will be mayby 5 or 6 player willing to kill me, but guys first of all not only HC matters, and not only you play in the communty.
I found out it is better to lower overal game dificulity and multiplay hell ball dificulityy add another something chalanging like LoS, balance mancer, make somethink that gives challange for old players who seen everything, without interrupting overal fun for everyone else.
Also when i started 1.21z i hated skillers with all my heart, but now i miss them, there were always viable currency in game, no matter what point of ladder i always could buy something for them, now basicly everything run round jah/cham/zod and perf facets and lore since we have such anourmus amout of druids.
Also form 1.21z i miss my powerhouse farmer bow zon which now fully geared barely can get her own 1ppl tundra in 1ppl spawned game when back then with only mavina set i could solo 8player tundra ... Dont know what changed but i feel it badly.

Yeah i know i'm bitch at whining, but i play for fun not for feeling retarded cos i dont want to play cookie cutter psn zon ... or something like that.

Every one says CB gave back then mele op-ness but it didnt, cos it took long time to twink char that far it could be good enough to be named op, when psn zon now just need tstroke and can solo hell baal no problem ... So guess what not nerf zon just gave mele back what they had at 1.21z.
Ok enugh of that. Sorry for it being so long.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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slappyNuts wrote:
haven't there been some good changes since then? wouldn't we be just tossing those out the window? What's missing from 1.21z that everyone misses? Can't we just change/revert those?

Voted no, reverting to 1.21z would give melee (phys dmg) toons a free reign again. I don't miss the possibility of lr/conv/amp breaking virtually any immunity. That alone forces strategics in how you play. There have been some much needed adjustments, and melee isn't that far off. Something as small as a 10 point amp adjustment, or lowering boss hats by that figure would do a lot. A small adjustment to the str buff of last patch such as giving 2h weaps 375 str bonus as well would do enough. Will be testing that using modded text files to see how it fares vs anything past hell Andy. IMO, using a lvl 99 barb, you should be able to solo her, but not Diablo or Baal. I While I want most toons to be viable, it was once pointed out that not all chars are boss killers.

The added skills on gear, soul shards, and a few skill changes were all welcomed. A few skills like feral rage and decoy need a small tweak. Soul shards could use a bit of love with the procs gone to make them more unique. Something like 2-5 res on andy, 2-5 stats on duri, 2-5% dr on Baal as ideas there. That low of changes won't break game but give them something.

1.21z was candyland. As mancer warned then, small changes have a dramatic effect as we all saw first hand.
Prescot wrote:
Also form 1.21z i miss my powerhouse farmer bow zon which now fully geared barely can get her own 1ppl tundra in 1ppl spawned game when back then with only mavina set i could solo 8player tundra ... Dont know what changed but i feel it badly.
My turd geared bowa (geared for mf not survival) can roll tundra IF I can clear the wp. The problem there was exasperated by the hi-res patch change bringing new monster ai lvls. I've played one since joining for 1.21z, and to me that's the change that made the biggest impact when coupled with 3x spawn base games.

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Last edited by kwikster on Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:18 pm
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slappyNuts wrote:
I never played 1.21z so I don't know, but as a noob it gives me a headache when there's massive changes every time a ladder reset comes around and I feel like I just figured out the game.

From what I've gathered though, 1.21z sounds like b.net for melee except with ctc amp instead of life tap and there are new bosses. I like playing melee, but holding right click to kill a boss isn't my cup of tea.

Didn't vote since all I can do is theory craft on the subject, but I would lean toward just changing our current patch to meet whatever it is that you love so much about 1.21z. You say no progress is being made toward a new patch, but kev just opened a thread with modifications for testing. Pious and others rallied everyone together to make this patch happen, what is stopping that from happening again? We have more time to prepare, and less of a flame fest with Blue gone. Sounds like reverting is for nostalgia or out of laziness of not wanting to make a new patch


I can suply you with full 1.21z version if interested so u could see how it did worked out.
Also about new patch i stopped suggesting when there was flames so much about making HU. Noob Unleasched. It isnt true since 1.21z no one called it noob unleashed and everyone get fun with it and there was ladder full of ppl. Now i feel like i'm playing alon, 19 friends, loging on and all off line ... when back then loging on and always 5-6 ppl online so there was party to play/farm with.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:55 pm 

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 8:51 pm
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@slappy I understand what you are saying man. I just feel like we will go around in circles again and again and nothing will come good of it. I simply want 1.21z back so that things are balanced again, thats the only reason

@kwikster So, a melee character 99 should not be able to solo Diablo or Baal, but its ok for a poison zon? Every char should have a fair chance IMO

I just wanna see what happens with the vote. If its a one sided yes, then fine. If its a one sided no, then fine! I just want balance. Feels to me like people only want to buff melee 'just enough' to get it through.

If people hate melee, thats fine... dont play it. But lets not have it nerfed to the point where people who enjoy cant play it properly. If casters were nerfed to the point melee is now and they swapped positions, people would cry.

This is the art of balance! Let it all have a chance of doing well, so people can play what they want!

1.21z is much more in the ballpark with that.

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Last edited by jaykayrox on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:09 pm 
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jaykayrox wrote:
@kwikster So, a melee character 99 should not be able to solo Diablo or Baal, but its ok for a poison zon? Every char should have a fair chance IMO



Exactly!

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:32 pm 
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jaykayrox wrote:
Every char should have a fair chance IMO


MUTINY!!!!!! Now you expect every char to have and equal chance?! Sounds like you are talking about having some sort of balance. Every build doesn't need to be a boss killer build but, every build should be able to kill trash or hurt bosses. I mean I'm making a fucking multishot nec and so far its more useful than any melee build I've played these last 2 patches. Better trash killer and better boss support.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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jaykayrox wrote:
@kwikster So, a melee character 99 should not be able to solo Diablo or Baal, but its ok for a poison zon? Every char should have a fair chance IMO

I just wanna see what happens with the vote. If its a one sided yes, then fine. If its a one sided no, then fine! I just want balance. Feels to me like people only want to buff melee 'just enough' to get it through.

If people hate melee, thats fine... dont play it. But lets not have it nerfed to the point where people who enjoy cant play it properly. If casters were nerfed to the point melee is now and they swapped positions, people would cry.

This is the art of balance! Let it all have a chance of doing well, so people can play what they want!

1.21z is much more in the ballpark with that.
That's not at all what I said. I happen to enjoy many varieties of toons. Last patch I rolled a psn zon just to check it out, was ok but too easy to kill bosses with. Shit, even without endgame gear (never got her past 90) she was quite good. The proposed nerf should have been done, but maybe just a bit gentler than proposed.

As we saw in the transition from 1.21z to 1.3a massive changes have dire consequences. Which is why we are having this discussion yet again, it was there for 1.3a as well. The return of some cb/ds/res/dr to gear was the right move. The changes to amp and boss res were a step. Next step is another smaller change, then we'll be in the ballpark. I don't want to see a return to a smiter using a ber'd gris caddy and nec amp destroy a boss in less than 2 mins, where's the challenege in that? Yes, it used to happen with 40% cb and 80% amp.

Terry had said at the end of last patch there wouldn't be a revert to 1.21z.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Wouldn't everything that has been done on the patch have to be redone?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:55 pm 
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kwikster wrote:

As we saw in the transition from 1.21z to 1.3a massive changes have dire consequences. Which is why we are having this discussion yet again, it was there for 1.3a as well. The return of some cb/ds/res/dr to gear was the right move. The changes to amp and boss res were a step. Next step is another smaller change, then we'll be in the ballpark. I don't want to see a return to a smiter using a ber'd gris caddy and nec amp destroy a boss in less than 2 mins, where's the challenege in that? Yes, it used to happen with 40% cb and 80% amp.



So are you saying this patch is more balanced than 1.21z?

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:06 am 

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There's no point in reverting after all the effort that has been put in to build this patch. It would be the most retarded move of direction ever... continous patches need to be put out and balancing has to be discussed/agreed on somewhat.. simple as that. The problem is just too many people want shit done their way and no one wants to argue/debate all the time anymore because it doesn't really solve anything. Even as shit is in the mess it is now.. it'd be worse to go back to 1.21z.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:17 am 
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No. This is just nostalgia getting the better of some. The patch may not be perfect, but it's not so bad to completely abandon it. Plus, this was asked before this patch. Terry said there wasn't going to be a reversion to 1.21z.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:44 am 
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I vote for the old 1.21 ...

I said many times in the last 3 years that the changes to melee and some other builds were way to much... The 1.21 patch ya is it easy sure it is but there is a simple fix..
1 Skillers would be back .. So instead of them being lvl 60 make them lvl 90.
2 increase the diffaculty instead of 2 spawn to 4 or 5.
3 As for the new Rw's we should take a community vote for the ones that should be added and the ones that should be redone..
4 bring Ci back for the melee chars such as barbs droods but only at lvl 90 or better so that becoming ci is very hard to get..
5 Increase boss's psn res by 50ish %
6 flag all tps so your forced to do the quest instead of just skipping by the act..Plus make dury a none leachable quest from town.. Force's the player to be there fighting instead of him jerking off in town ..


Just my thoughts on this guys cheers. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:12 am 
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I disagree about reverting, what happens once we revert? No more patches ever? New patches are what bring people to mods, they are needed to keep people interested.

IMO, we should be focusing on adding new content and make small balance adjustments until it's right. You have to remember though that it's near impossible to have all builds completely balanced. People will always find the best build type and play it to death, theres no getting away from that. Whatever does the most damage with decent survival will always be the most popular.

All the quest flags should be fully reinstated, there was no reason at all to remove them. They were a great way to make use of the unused quests.

I use a simple method to make creating the staff a quest that people actually want to do.
The ore in a2 should be changed to a blank unique carry 1 charm (diff one for each difficulty). Then when you create the staff, the ore is added as a second output but with a small bonus added to it (20 hp/mana in norm for example).
It can only be done once because there is no way to pick up another ore after dropping the first full staff and doing the recipe again for a second charm. The ore is already in your posetion (with 20 hp/mana because the staff has been made).

You can do the same thing with the council/flail quest.
People don't NEED to do it, they can skip it and just not get the charm, but they will be slightly weaker than those who actually do the full quest :) (choices)

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:18 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I use a simple method to make creating the staff a quest that people actually want to do.
The ore in a2 should be changed to a blank unique carry 1 charm (diff one for each difficulty). Then when you create the staff, the ore is added as a second output but with a small bonus added to it (20 hp/mana in norm for example).
It can only be done once because there is no way to pick up another ore after dropping the first full staff and doing the recipe again for a second charm. The ore is already in your posetion (with 20 hp/mana because the staff has been made).

You can do the same thing with the council/flail quest.
People don't NEED to do it, they can skip it and just not get the charm, but they will be slightly weaker than those who actually do the full quest :) (choices)

instead of making the ore a charm I'd rather add a starting charm with killcounter etc included that gains bonusses when you cube it together with the staff/flail parts

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:29 am 
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You'd need to hardcode the section that removes all mods from items at char creation and allows uniques to spawn propperly at creation. (not too tricky, I have it in my notes on NR forums IIRC if you wanna do that)
The charm kill counter method is flawed for summon chars/merc kills tho. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:31 am 
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but only the softcoded, dav92's plugin works perfectly as far as I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:37 am 
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yeh, but you dont need a charm for that, it'd be better to have the kills displayed on the char screen (same place as essence strength in NR maybe).

One thing you could do would be to add a stat to cursed items (requires XXXX kills while the item is equipped to uncurse it)
The d2killcounter.dll i have has an extra colum for "reqstat" so the stat wont be increased unless a certain item with a certain stat is equipped.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:09 pm 
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jaykayrox wrote:
@slappy I understand what you are saying man. I just feel like we will go around in circles again and again and nothing will come good of it. I simply want 1.21z back so that things are balanced again, thats the only reason


We've made progress with this patch, what's stopping us from taking another shot at a balance patch? Reverting seems like multiple steps backwards.

Prescot wrote:
We miss curse progression form 1.21z we miss cb, we miss ress. .


we can do that with a new patch, don't need to revert

Prescot wrote:
Actualy it is hard to say for some pro players but we miss easyness and simplyness of 1.21z.


pro players like an easy game? :?

Asteroth wrote:
1 Skillers would be back .. So instead of them being lvl 60 make them lvl 90.
2 increase the diffaculty instead of 2 spawn to 4 or 5.
3 As for the new Rw's we should take a community vote for the ones that should be added and the ones that should be redone..
4 bring Ci back for the melee chars such as barbs droods but only at lvl 90 or better so that becoming ci is very hard to get..
5 Increase boss's psn res by 50ish %
6 flag all tps so your forced to do the quest


Can be done with a new patch, don't need to revert

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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:47 pm 
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I vote a new weapon mod, that has a kill counter like tf2.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you think Hell Unleashed should revert to 1.21z?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:47 pm 
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can we report dmg through chat? Then we could have people develop programs to parse that info outside of the actually game code?


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