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Do melee characters need more buff?
Yes 85%  85%  [ 33 ]
No 15%  15%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 39
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 Post subject: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:42 pm 
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In light of the new patch, I'd like to discuss where we have landed in regards to melee characters. Let's start with a simple poll, followed by your comments and opinions-

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:54 pm 
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I personally think that melee is still lacking. Since their ability to clear trash is naturally poor, what is their saving grace? To stand and whack a boss.

How well are physical based melee characters damaging bosses at the moment? Has anyone even built one? I think in general it isn't very effective. Sure the return of some cb was nice, but even still if you don't have a hefty amp a decent a3 merc will still take a boss down faster. The soft point progression to amp should have helped, but now people aren't maxing it so it's about the same as it was last ladder.

Then the reduction of ED% str bonus was an unnecessary kick to the balls (specifically to pious). Dumping 400 points to str was practically the only way to get some decent numbers as it was, but regardless of a 100k WW, if the boss' phys res is too high it counts for nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Now we encounter different issues, like we DON'T ever get amp from a nec, since everyone just uses LR, and then barbs can just stand aside and be a bo bitch, and that happens all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Kruno wrote:
Now we encounter different issues, like we DON'T ever get amp from a nec, since everyone just uses LR, and then barbs can just stand aside and be a bo bitch, and that happens all the time.


well, psn builds and fstorm need a nerf, but that's a different discussion. I think if the bosses phys res was a touch lower then maybe we'd see more melee's fighting during boss fights. Messing with necro amp values is tricky, I'm just tired of having a party full of "support" characters and depending on one of us to have a psn or fstorm

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:25 pm 

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The return of some CB on items was needed I do agree. I don't think that the change from 300 to 450 str bonus was warranted in the first place. Yes, I know the logic behind it, using it to compensate for killing cs/ds/cb on weapons. We all know that didn't work so well. The return of cs/ds/cb, albeit at reduced numbers, necessitated lowering the str bonuses somewhat, IMO. Maybe split the differences, like many items got this patch. One problem is, most got used to building chars a certain way and haven't adapted. Like using oak over HoW on a shaper, I got asked why I maxed HoW on my FB druid several times. Too many people still look at skills like amp as 1 pointers as they always were. Some skills ,eg conv and lr, could use a small tweak to their progressions similar to amps.

I found it strange, dr got obliterated on items so what happened? DR got added to things like smite and HoW. Kinda counter-intuitive isn't it? With the hi-res monster AI got tweaked, but mercs were left alone. Brain-fart anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:27 pm 

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Heh I feel like they need buff some way. WW barbs i know are a bit underpowerd. Didn't meet any zealer but friend is making one. Also i'm about to make retarted mele zon to check how exacly it will go, and than mayby i could say what is wrong. I still think that a bit more cb would slove problems.

slappy not only fstorm and psn are viable, my fbite is decent also, at least enough to be source of dps on boss :D Tricky to play but viable, so dont generalize that only psn and fstorm are boss fighter, cos i saw many psn and fstorm chars this ladder that were even worse than my fbite. Basicly every elemental char full twinked with endgame gear/shards etc gonna do much much more better than mele even godly twinked mele. But i have to say i want to prove it otherwise cos I'm making mele zon and want to make it viable at boss fights no metter what will be going on :D


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:43 pm 
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the point is not to discuss OP or viable builds... I know there are other viable builds... how do you think I've been getting through Hell? lol

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:53 pm 

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the problem is simple: melees are by nature either single-target dps or can dps a small group of the enemy. if they are unable to do this, then they have 2 places they can go. either as a sponge tank, or as a novelty character.

ele chars kill bosses better than melees, and mercs even clear better than they do. where does this place melees? as sponges. yet even here recastables like blades, bears, skeletons, and even decoys tend to survive long enough for the dps to get the job done.

the unfortunate truth is that melees need to be strong enough to do what they are designed to do (destroy single targets) yet when they can do this they are OP and need to be nerfed. therefore, it is best to leave them in their current state, because there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what the real purpose of a melee is.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:37 pm 

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i think we should give all melee chars elemental casting ranged spells... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:54 pm 
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I suddenly wish your internet was still broke lol

OK, I guess most people agree melee is underpowered so I guess that was a silly question. The real question is how the hell do we go about changing it without turning HU into b.net

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:11 am 

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Melee is still messed up yes! Pious makes a good point though! But then again we have builds ripping through everything and nobody complains that much!

Single target with amp is average at the moment. IM is a waste of time IMO though!

Regarding trash, I suggest a little AoE on some melée skills. least you can kill a few more things at a time then

But as you say dustin. If your merc is better than you, there's some issues ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:53 am 

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revert the str nerf and reduce the boss phy resistances with 3-5%

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:41 am 

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revert str nerf and bring back old cb and it will be fine, or revert str nerf, reduce boss phy ress by 10% and remove iron maiden curse from game cos it is the biggest problems with mele chars, they would be damn good if only there werent that one curse that cause 12 or 14k hp char to one shot himself ...


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:15 am 
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Verb wrote:
revert the str nerf and reduce the boss phy resistances with 3-5%


This is actually what I was thinking as well

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:31 am 

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Prescot wrote:
revert str nerf and bring back old cb and it will be fine, or revert str nerf, reduce boss phy ress by 10% and remove iron maiden curse from game cos it is the biggest problems with mele chars, they would be damn good if only there werent that one curse that cause 12 or 14k hp char to one shot himself ...
Giving last patches str with the older cb would result in melees being op. Melee does have a good cb weap currently in ribcracker if they choose to use it. Most are so focused on getting huge dmg numbers, they ignore the fact that it's even an option. I still laugh at those using WW vs act bosses as there are much better skills for that purpose such as berserk. WW won't stop till completed just like zeal, so getting im'd during one of those is insta death. That's where using that thing we call a brain comes into play. Many people here are building chars the same way they did in 1.21z and don't understand or even know skills got changed up. People got spoiled by how strong melee was before the last patch. Amp could hit 80%ish with a single point. 40% cb was easily achieved using a ber'd gris caddy. Amp from atma's and a melee could obliterate most bosses fairly easily. Looking at the patch melee was last strong, factor in the the available dr, res and sorbs that were present. Those helped melee show as being stronger. Last patch let everyone see how too much change wasn't a good thing.

IMO, there are more pressing issues than melee having more power. If anything we need to make small changes and things will be better.

slappyNuts wrote:
Verb wrote:
revert the str nerf and reduce the boss phy resistances with 3-5%


This is actually what I was thinking as well
Bosses did have their res lowered this patch. Baal has 130 now compared to 145 last patch. IIRC, patch before (1.21z) had same as last patch but had 1 pointed amp able to hit -80% and melee could crush him with reasonable ease. Go too low and they become too easy. If anything were done it should be and either or but not both.

What's next, adjust their elemental resists so conviction/lr can drop them below 99 so a fire sorc can be effective vs hell Dia? Or a psn zon be able to kill hell Andy? (sarcasm) :o

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:02 am 
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I appreciate the input Kwikster. As I wasn't around for 1.21z I have no base of comparison to what an OP melee would be like other than b.net. I came into HU during Blue's patch where melee was donkey shit; I feel like we took a step in the right direction this patch, but still I've only seen pious running with melee characters once again.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:58 am 
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I personally feel what kwikster's saying is pretty much on the nose... Besides... Everyone seems to be forgetting one cruel fact of balancing... There's ALWAYS going to be some build that people are going to use some set of criteria to pick out as better than the rest. In 1.21z it was melees probably... in 1.3 its been DOT fire and poison builds. DOT fire being mechanically superior in that it's fire puddles trigger no counters (which unfortunately there is no way to possibly fix without giving the skills literally hundreds of counter chances for some skills). Only way to prevent an awesome benefit like that not from being a top tier skill would be to give the skill total crap damage. Poison on the other hand just simply has no %poison absorb to oppose it unlike the other non physical elements.

If people feel poison is still DPSing too strongly against bosses despite the PLR there's a way to knock it down a peg. Just simply give the boss charms poison resist like they have physical resist. In the case the poison resist from the charm happens to help push the poison resist to the 100+ threshold it will be a soft immune which breaks at full strength from LR/conv.

As for the summons being too handy against bosses thing... I got a couple ideas to throw out for the crowd for that. 1) being to give the bosses more DOT when struck counters which the summons will be too dumb to move out of (and mildly boosting summon timers [+.5-1 seconds] in conjunction may also be done). 2) Give bosses on striking procs that only a melee's high defense and block could prevent from activating most of the time (eg boss lets loose a firestorm/or some other skill half the time they land a melee hit/arrow).


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:44 pm 

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Baerk wrote:
it will be a soft immune which breaks at full strength from LR/conv.

Sorry fr quoting only that part of ur whole post but since when conv lowers psn resist?? Remember this what u suggest will nerf psn chars to the point where meles are now or mayby even further back, cos it will make them impossible to take any place in fight when there is no necro round. Same thing is with mele right now.

As for summons take in note that ur suggestions will take down summoners builds to the stone age. I would rather suggest to nerf 1 point summons, and some what buff summoners who max out summons. Diablo was designed to barbs/dins/summoners tank dmg from boss while elemental chars kill it. But it should be balanced far enough that any fully twinked char is possible to kill boss, even if it would require 1h fight but it should be possible, which isnt now and thats reason why we need to balance mele further.

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Prescot wrote:
revert str nerf and bring back old cb and it will be fine, or revert str nerf, reduce boss phy ress by 10% and remove iron maiden curse from game cos it is the biggest problems with mele chars, they would be damn good if only there werent that one curse that cause 12 or 14k hp char to one shot himself ...
Giving last patches str with the older cb would result in melees being op. Melee does have a good cb weap currently in ribcracker if they choose to use it. Most are so focused on getting huge dmg numbers, they ignore the fact that it's even an option. I still laugh at those using WW vs act bosses as there are much better skills for that purpose such as berserk. WW won't stop till completed just like zeal, so getting im'd during one of those is insta death. That's where using that thing we call a brain comes into play. Many people here are building chars the same way they did in 1.21z and don't understand or even know skills got changed up. People got spoiled by how strong melee was before the last patch. Amp could hit 80%ish with a single point. 40% cb was easily achieved using a ber'd gris caddy. Amp from atma's and a melee could obliterate most bosses fairly easily.


Hmm you say it is possible to use in hell weapon that gives -50% resistances, on a boss which cast curses including lr?? With the nerf of all ress on items it is damn hilarious what you try to imply here. Bered griss would be better than that. Now for mele it is even impossible to wear atamas cos most mele have problem reaching 200 res which is required to be 75% in hell. It is especialy cos of fact that caster gear got shitload of ress and mele gear got none. I laught my ass off when i heard lvl 95 barb twinked quite good with double godfather cant reach 75 when i could do that at lvl 90 with caster ... I have no idea what the idea was behind removing res from godfathers also but it's not the point. Point is that there isnt many low dmg middle fast weapons with shitload cb to bypass IM. U may choose weapon which has lots of cb but ur attack speed is so fast that before u land first hit curse on you will change 3 times .... So seriously, dont say that mele players are dumb, most of them dont, but it is damn fcking hard to reach good dr mdr and life bulb enough to stand against bosses, and also do any dmg. But take in mind casters esly reach high dps and life bulbs like 8-9k, and barbs only reach 12k-13k when they want to do any dmg, and also are open for counters, and mele area boss dmg ... They should get seriously better. I remeber my barb from 1.21z could stand against hell diablo tanking with healer on his back, now same geared and skilled, with godly twinked healer back there, die almoast one shot to hell diablo. So WTF has happend to mele. Also back then i'v got enough ress to be 75 on lr, now barely reach 75 withou lr on me. I'm just feeling something went wrong.

Same time complaining on mele balance, i'm retarded enough to make mele zon and prove it can kill something in hell :D


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Well if we are talking nerfing 1 pt summons yet boosting the maxed summons I got an idea for that. Cooldown timers actually are functions. This means we could do practically nearly anything imaginable that isn't horribly complex with cool down timers. It would be a very simple matter to make a cooldown timer slower for a 1 pted summon than a maxed summon.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:54 pm 

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Bringing back the str/CB could make melee a little overpowered yes, but at the moment it seems simply like we either have melee or we dont?

I still think having some AoE on skills like concentrate/maul etc would be a positive thing in regards to trash. Because lets face it, even if you hit a group of monsters in a small radius around you dealing damage to all, you still wouldnt be an over powered trash clearer in this current patch

Most caster builds can decimate all trash and bosses, and at the moment melee doesnt do any of that, so there's clearly something that needs to give in terms of a buff IMO

Whether that be bringing back old changes with regards to strength/CB, or adding new ways to try and bring it up to speed.

Just some kind of balance between the two forms needs to be met


P.S Death to iron maiden ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:21 pm 
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I don't think plain phys dmg is what we need to worry about making melee OP, it's the cb. Adding more cb to items might be too much, won't lowering the boss' phys res a couple points make cb a little more effective anyways? Maybe that would be enough of a buff.

I still think the str ED% values should be reverted though.. building a pure str barb just seems like a waste of time now, where it was a fun option before

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:15 pm 
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I'd rather the other builds damage was reduced a bit via passive pierce adjustments. The gap between phys and ele damage is so enormous because of those stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:01 pm 
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Adding aoe to a few melee skills wouldn't break the game imo. It would be cause by relaseing a missile so against a boss it would be suicide because you would essentialy hit twice per attack. Maybe for barbs give bash a small aoe, pallys have vengeance but imo for the point investment it need some sort of buff. Vengeance should destroy trash like a fucking wildfire. Problem with it is the aoe on vengeance is just weapon dmg and it only gets str bonus not skill ed.
I'm testing a fix for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:12 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I'd rather the other builds damage was reduced a bit via passive pierce adjustments. The gap between phys and ele damage is so enormous because of those stats.
+1 The ease of which many builds hit over 100 pierce is far too easy. Even with the slight nerf to facets and ele crafts 120% pierce is the norm, not the exception. The only pierce for phys dmg is amp/decrep. Most people look for the easiest boss killer they can play.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:50 pm 
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You could change vengeance missile. it's got the conversion function missing in missiles.txt

Maybe change it so it spawns a frozen orb clone that fires 1 sub missile, then explodes in a small invis nova. The submissile is another forb clone that fires 1 sub missile and explodes in another small nova. Finally, the last sub missile explodes into a third small nova.

Each nova missile should use damage func of 1 with 100% conversion to elemental damage (each diff one coinverted to diff element).
Have them not trigger a counter, so the melee strike causes the counter, not the AoE components.
It will only apply damage based on attack damage (impossible to be based on the ED% conversion on veng skill.)
Each one could carry 1/3 weapon damage. Just need to decide on the range.

I'll knock something together for peeps to take a look at.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:18 pm 

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just as i figured. there is no consensus on what the purpose of a melee is. they remain single-target damage dealers who are unable to fulfill their role as damage dealers. we might as well make all melee builds have built-in tank bonuses because that is the only purpose they fulfill in parties at the moment.

just join any random game on hc or sc and tell me who is killing the bosses and farming at the same time. lets just keep talking on the forum instead of watching what goes on in realm.

the last thing i want to see is the current strong builds get nerfed to the point melees are at now. i rather like the idea that players can choose between different characters to get the job done. nerfing psn/fire builds is only going to narrow the choices down to bypassing foh paladins for cookie cutting. if the idea is to force people to play in parties i cant name the last time i saw more than a few people in a game together.

the community size is simply not large enough for these non-stop nerfs to characters. but alas i don't care nearly enough to stop anyone from creating their version of the prefect world on HU. i'll just play my op chars in private games and keep my distance from this bickering.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:40 pm 
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once again, the point of this was to gather opinions on how/if to buff melee, not to nerf anything

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:42 pm 
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Try that for a new veng. Changed skilldesc and the way the missile released functions. Range etc can be adjusted to whatever you like.

Edit: Removed attatchment, use dews on the next page

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:25 pm 
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Will test it out when I get home almost exactly what I had in mind. Except I was thinking srcdmg of 64 for 1/2 weapon dmg for each missile.thx Kev

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:30 pm 
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the srcdam is done in missiles.txt on it when you get to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:46 pm 
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ok been testing and first thing i noticed is u missed putting 100 in dmgcalc1 so it wasnt converting to ele dmg. tested with the same setup i have on realm and base damage was a 8k, vengeance damage was 22k. at 1/3 damage per missile it was a noticeable improvement clearing hell trash within the radius. at 1/2 per missile it was working at a decent pace.3/4 dmg per missile is too much and with my set up i have 65 pierce on all 3 elements and a conviction with -53 res. aoe works out to be 12k with scrdam at 64 so a single target damage of 34k. Imo the missiles should cause counters against bosses otherwise they have the potential to be op at bosses. I also had 32 small charms with +4 max dmg +20 ar +20 life and no shards or other skill charms and probably wouldn't use that many in real play.

Edit: added the modified files from kevs original would like to see more people test this and it looks cool as shit. can add anymore attachments so here is a link datatest.zip

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:35 am 
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ah shit, nice catch on the dmgcalc1.
with 1/2 weap damage per missile i'd be ok with them triggering a counter each.

Removed my other attatchment to make room again. We could do with having the limit increased. I've been struggling with it for ages with client side edits and shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:19 am 

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Here's a fun lee post:

Let me share a story with my OP now dead L100 SoulKhan fire druid. I played that fire druid two ladders in a row. Op? Damage wise.. sure. Survivability was horrible, however, and what eventually let to my death was just that. Constantly rushing ungrateful kids who can't even tank a damn mini-boss will get you killed when Amos spawns cursed extra fast etc. and then tele and nados your face off because a Summoners summons can't hold that but Luckily I have never died before but I've had so many close encounters and you simply can't beat them all.

No one tanks anymore. It's the most annoying shit ever. Does anyone even tank on SC? That's what I want to know.

Pious brought up a good point that still has not been answered it and nerfing psn/fire/foh will accomplish nothing for this mod because community size is the most inconsistent thing ever. The realm is alive at certain points then completely dead then a little bit alive again and maybe one day it's way more alive then it's ever been ( usually on reset ) but the consistency is not that great.

I think a melee should tank,kill trash and help kill somewhat while they tank.

If you turn a melee into a tank, trash killer, and boss killer it makes no sense does it eh? At least the elemental builds that actually kill bosses are NOT TANKS and do not have any general tanking gear.

BUffing the dmg of Melee's or making them as strong as ele chars is like throwing on 40% DR to ele druids which could have saved my L100 Dead firedruids life.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:40 am 
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So how do we go about giving melees the proper amount of tankiness? Last I checked giving casual leech lock which would just simply allow most melees to beat on a boss without pots till the boss died was too good (and trying to gun leech for just under the leech lock point is impossible to properly balance due to the fact some people/builds are going to abuse the leech a lot better than others).

One good point someone already threw out was that the actual genuine melee gear was sorely lacking resists compared to caster gear. Does the melee gear have enough %DR availability? Also do some melee builds need things done for lackluster defensive skills?


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:08 am 

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Baerk wrote:
So how do we go about giving melees the proper amount of tankiness? Last I checked giving casual leech lock which would just simply allow most melees to beat on a boss without pots till the boss died was too good (and trying to gun leech for just under the leech lock point is impossible to properly balance due to the fact some people/builds are going to abuse the leech a lot better than others).

One good point someone already threw out was that the actual genuine melee gear was sorely lacking resists compared to caster gear. Does the melee gear have enough %DR availability? Also do some melee builds need things done for lackluster defensive skills?

Baerk as i pointed out, building my mele zonn gear i could hit 98%DR, which is kinda usless cos of the cap. But acquiering this cap, using coa tyrales rends wsk dancers, gives almoast exact amout of DR cap, what than mean it shouldnt be buffed. I ffel more like mele gear is missing resists, and life bosts(even stupid 10 vita would help). Also for now mele have 2 choices, go 230 str and dump all vit so they can survive longer on pots, or dump almoast whole in str, and pray to got that there will be amp so they might leech at least a bit.
Also to prove my point that mele gear neet to be looked into i have story, My friend made healer/tanker, maxed bolt prayer defiance holy shield. Using goldy war rw, and basicly full twinked. I bet with him my fb(full caster gear) will stand longer against hell andy than he will do. And guess what, not only i stayed longer alive but i'v almoast soloed her, and he even he was designed only for tanking couldnt stand even half time i did. Also, not even trying to hit that my fb druid got 250 res, when fully twinked tanker balery got 190 ... and for a fun fact i made my rabies to get 320 ress and 10% sorb on everything ... he is also in caster gear but shield is differnt, using ward.

On top of my head i have few things that would help alont for example for ww, bring back godfathers resistances, and i guess for every mele, for the love of god make evey high end i mean 92 lvl or 95 lvl weapon indestructable. Dont make mele to do decisions on to choose between zoded wh with higher dmg but slower with no ar, or lower dmg but faster and with ar. Next thing is balancing AR for mele, it is something that hurts badly. When casters can stack up res and life charms, mele have to stack ar only chamrs to hit anything in hell, and even that sometimes isnt enough. The way things go now, we have sorceress with 9k hp due to full inventory of 20 life sc, and barbs 11k hp which have to full inventory with ar charms to even start fighting. So there is something went wrong in here.

Also as i'm developing my zon more and more i started to see one damn hard thing, life per vita at zon. I know it has to be keept down cos of potential of psn zon, but this hits hard at mele zons, we should mayby think about somehow buffing it when we max mele zons skills. Only that seems reasonable to me.

I dont think there is problem with balancing mele skills, mayby except barbs, cos they have to make hard choices what to max, synergies for skill, mastery of weapon increased stamina or bo. It maight sound silly, but ww build is 80 point build cos of bash/leap/ww and masteries which is hardly required to do dmg, than we have to choose between bo which is party wise and increased stamina which is self and tanky wise ... Thats not something i entirely call balance :P And is only class i feel like the skills are a bit messed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:13 am 

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why does everyone seem to assume that you have to bring back the old 1.21z cb values if you revert the str nerf? if you leave cb the way it is and revert the str buff, wouldnt melee be a lot more viable than now?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:27 am 
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the issue of tanking is really a combination of things.We ran a 3 man party playing the full game necro, healer, and a melee Druid so with constant amp and healing the druid was our boss killer. Tbh norm and nightmare were pretty smooth and leech was noticeable but once we got to hell even with a healer it became tough for the druid to survive in a bosses face. Andy was difficult but doable if you call needing a healer to tank. Any caster can tank with life buffs and a healer tho. Also at andy leech couldn't take off any edge but you could notice it slightly. Dury and beyond the druid just took too much dmg and couldn't even tell leech was working anymore, this was with max res, sorbs and the best mdr he could get. Now look at the last patch and we had more mdr available but melee couldnt hurt bosses and they survived better at bosses, i still wouldn't have called them successful. Melee used to be able to stack res to combat combat curses but it just isn't possible. Moncusre drops ALL RESISTANCES by at LEAST 50% including Dr% melee cant tank without stacking res Dr% and mdr/pdr. Btw don't know how many people killed bosses with necro amp but it is possible just nowhere nearly as quickly as casters can and a twinked healer because melee can't survive on pots.

Melee items or skills need boosted for survival. Mdr shouldn't be booster on diamonds imo because it would help casters too, so it needs to go on items designed for melee. Give melee there str ed bonus back and make higher leech more attainable instead of messing with boss leech effectiveness. Not to mention ar can be a pain in the ass for some builds so maybe give melee weapons a few sockets so we can choose to put skulls for leech or
amethysts for ar and ias.

Finally lets come to a decision and put changes to a live beta on realm. Thats the only way real feedback is gonna happen!

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:30 am 
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Verb wrote:
why does everyone seem to assume that you have to bring back the old 1.21z cb values if you revert the str nerf? if you leave cb the way it is and revert the str buff, wouldnt melee be a lot more viable than now?


I agree cb is fine where its at, not really noticed though if your dying or busy juving till your dead. Also increasing cb wouldn't really make a difference against trash, but the str ed bonus would.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:34 am 
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awesome input, thanks dew

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:46 am 
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well lets hop on over to suggestions forum and get a melee item overhaul going!!

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:48 am 

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slappyNuts wrote:
awesome input, thanks dew

Love how dew say what i said just post above him and u noticed only what he wrote :P


dew wrote:
well lets hop on over to suggestions forum and get a melee item overhaul going!!

This is part i'm only watch ppl suggestions and mainly in my head decide it is good or not. I have no damn idea what is balance (concerning how this mod is being balanced in way i dont undrestand), I know mele needs mainly ress and indestructable weapons, this are 2 big tweaks, rest is just metter of little tweaks.
Also about items and balancing, remember that new items could be weared by mercs, so it has to be done in good way, cos we might run onto a wall where a2 or a5 merc will be better than mele barb or paly ...


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:55 am 
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Prescot wrote:
Love how dew say what i said just post above him and u noticed only what he wrote :P


pardon me for not extrapolating the same message from what you said. I read your post and the only response I could think to say is that Devastator has inc stam/iron skin/nat res/fanat so you shouldn't have a problem making a decent melee zon (I had one last ladder, no tyraels and she did fine).

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:13 am 

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slappyNuts wrote:
Prescot wrote:
Love how dew say what i said just post above him and u noticed only what he wrote :P


pardon me for not extrapolating the same message from what you said. I read your post and the only response I could think to say is that Devastator has inc stam/iron skin/nat res/fanat so you shouldn't have a problem making a decent melee zon (I had one last ladder, no tyraels and she did fine).

I wasnt implementing about mele zons problem, and still devastator is lvl 95 and is rare, so till 95 and till dev basicly she needs to be rushed best by druid who have oak so she could easly survive, and still inc stamina doesnt give that much whe u have low base hp.
But to the point overall my post was suggestion of changes similar to what duff said, and only thing u took out of my post was fact i was complaining about mele zons hp.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:30 am 
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not that, just it seemed more like a lee rant lol
It's safe to say there is a general consensus that melee needs a buff. Dew already started a thread on item changes, that will be a good place to start.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:34 am 
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Ar can be a real issue, without metalgrid in hell you got no AR with melee char, and it sucks to be so dependant on one item. You really dont have a choice at the end with amulets. Metalgrid is a must have. I have no idea how to fix it, maybe lower mob defense, add more % ar per skill lvl or something?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:37 am 

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Kruno wrote:
Ar can be a real issue, without metalgrid in hell you got no AR with melee char, and it sucks to be so dependant on one item. You really dont have a choice at the end with amulets. Metalgrid is a must have. I have no idea how to fix it, maybe lower mob defense, add more % ar per skill lvl or something?

I dont agree on metalgrid. none of my mele ever used it, mara is better, gives dex which compensate a bit, and it is easy to find and stack ar charms insted of being stuck with metal. But overal agreement ar need huge buff, and not with %AR but with flat ar, cos most of end game weapons miss flat ar and if u have none flat are no metter how much%Ar u got it dont give anything basicly.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:38 am 
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Thats why i said add sockets to weapons so if u need ar amethysts can be used and if u need more leech skulls can be used. Caster weapons have sockets for facets so why can melee weapons have sockets to help them??

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:40 am 
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Is there a way to add flat +AR to skills? I've only ever seen +AR%

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:43 am 
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could on passives not quite sure bout attack skills, but im trying to find more use for gems here. ether stone adds 300 ar and after skill ar bonus it makes a huge differnce

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:46 am 

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dew wrote:
Thats why i said add sockets to weapons so if u need ar amethysts can be used and if u need more leech skulls can be used. Caster weapons have sockets for facets so why can melee weapons have sockets to help them??

So buff flat ar at amethysts. AR from amethys isn't nearly enough for what mele needs, even 4 socketed weapons with amethyst wont give it enough for mele as it is now. I want situation where i can only have half inventory of ar charms to actualy hit something, rather than full inventory, also adding sockets may open options for faster attack speed we have to take that into consideration, and same time we dont want to nerf actual weapon speeds, cos it will cause for every mele to be must to put amethyst in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:11 pm 
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voted no, because we can't have a fury druid using 60ias wpn hitting 2fpa solo hell diablo without dying to IM, melee is OP as it is, I was told 98lvl barb can rush thro norm, that needs to be balanced.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:16 pm 
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lol Wut?? lvl 98 shit how norm is hard!
Really tho moving on

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:17 pm 

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Steel wrote:
voted no, because we can't have a fury druid using 60ias wpn hitting 2fpa solo hell diablo without dying to IM, melee is OP as it is, I was told 98lvl barb can rush thro norm, that needs to be balanced.

Damn show me that fury dru and this weapon :P hehe Or is it irony of urs??
Make single player druid same geared as this one i want to test that lol :D I want to see the power of mele ;]


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:24 pm 
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There's a file that dicates the base life/defense/AR (probably among other things) that monsters have at a given monster level. Monstats just simply has multipliers that apply to these base stat ratings which are by difficulty.... It would actually be a simple matter to just simply cut base monster defense by half in hell via this particular file since it's just simply altering a column of only 110 values which are for each monster level vs editing the defense value of all several hundred monster types for hell difficulty.

There would be no need to add sockets or boost ameth AR if this change is done. If it's genuinely a general problem with melees not having enough CTH it would be a simple matter to just simply slash a difficulty defense column so that the 5 AR one gets per soft dex point means more among other things.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Baerk wrote:
There's a file that dicates the base life/defense/AR (probably among other things) that monsters have at a given monster level. Monstats just simply has multipliers that apply to these base stat ratings which are by difficulty.... It would actually be a simple matter to just simply cut base monster defense by half in hell via this particular file since it's just simply altering a column of only 110 values which are for each monster level vs editing the defense value of all several hundred monster types for hell difficulty.

There would be no need to add sockets or boost ameth AR if this change is done. If it's genuinely a general problem with melees not having enough CTH it would be a simple matter to just simply slash a difficulty defense column so that the 5 AR one gets per soft dex point means more among other things.


Well, some builds suffer from AR problems more than others, but this is cool anyways. Would the cth calculation on our stat screen be calculated as such? Or would our display be wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:31 pm 
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tbh i don know if all melee need it but most do so it would be a welcomed change in my eyes

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:31 pm 

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Baerk wrote:
There's a file that dicates the base life/defense/AR (probably among other things) that monsters have at a given monster level. Monstats just simply has multipliers that apply to these base stat ratings which are by difficulty.... It would actually be a simple matter to just simply cut base monster defense by half in hell via this particular file since it's just simply altering a column of only 110 values which are for each monster level vs editing the defense value of all several hundred monster types for hell difficulty.

There would be no need to add sockets or boost ameth AR if this change is done. If it's genuinely a general problem with melees not having enough CTH it would be a simple matter to just simply slash a difficulty defense column so that the 5 AR one gets per soft dex point means more among other things.


Love this change even more than adding ar to the amethysts or weapon, cos it would make builds like rabies fbite fclaws or pns necro no need to stack so many ar charms which are not the best option for this particural builds. At my fb i got roun 85% cth and still manage to kill bosses (7k AR only!!) with healer at my back, so it isnt bad, but if i get 95% cth fbite would be much more usefull.

EDIT. Also adding situation that flat ar i aded to base ar even before any AR% is calculated in, and before skill %AR is calculated. It would be buff that might slove some problems. Of course if it isnt already that way ;]


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:47 pm 
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If the defense slash is done as server side only then your CS will pretend its still the old values your AR is going against. Same would happen if the ameth AR buff was only server side (your game window would pretend the ameths still have the old values). Only non-rune/gem item or TC edits could be done server side only without there being some sort of display bug since the server always shoves the stats of the items down your game window's throat. But of course those changes wouldn't be reflected in single player.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:53 pm 
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who cares what's % to hit on your char screen when there's no monsters' block chance etc. there? if you need 42k AR for 90% hell diablo (meaning full inv of ar charms, holy blessing, who knows what more) and he has 60(??)% ctb then there's something wrong.

Usually any melee without charms have 10k ar(or I'm mistaken). How much AR charms do casters have? ah 20hp scs...

Ah of course there are eth runes, making impossible to hit final IAS BP... Hm, seems that casters need major nerf as they don't need to think what to wear as their gear choice is pretty much the same at every point of the game... or melee is screwed, tho I'd lower ED bonus from str to 20% from 350%... and make HoW ed 1% per 10 hard points.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:04 pm 

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Steel wrote:
who cares what's % to hit on your char screen when there's no monsters' block chance etc. there? if you need 42k AR for 90% hell diablo (meaning full inv of ar charms, holy blessing, who knows what more) and he has 60(??)% ctb then there's something wrong.

Usually any melee without charms have 10k ar(or I'm mistaken). How much AR charms do casters have? ah 20hp scs...

Ah of course there are eth runes, making impossible to hit final IAS BP... Hm, seems that casters need major nerf as they don't need to think what to wear as their gear choice is pretty much the same at every point of the game... or melee is screwed, tho I'd lower ED bonus from str to 20% from 350%... and make HoW ed 1% per 10 hard points.

About mele ar not entirely true cos ww barbs get round eve 30 or 40k ar and it is still far away from what they need to have 95 cth.
Now i realized something, didnt know that boses have ctb, if they have ctb and i have 80% to cth this gives less than 40% chance to actualy alnd damaging hit. ctb at boses is a bit op in there since as far as my knowlage goes there isnt any way to block meteor blizzard or any elemental dmg like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:12 pm 
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I thought I recalled seeing an upwards of 45% CTB on monsters in the monstats file for hell difficulty (I thought 30% was the more typical value I saw though for hell). Removing that block though would pretty much open the flood gates on melee damage and leech even more than reverting the str bonus due to half or more hits extra hits that were formerly blocked. Even when the str bonus for melee weapons was slashed by a 1/3rd it caused pious's pure str barb to lose just under 1/5th damage (I was honestly expecting a bigger damage loss myself at first).


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:28 pm 
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i think leaving block alone would be fine since hasn't it always been apart of hu? why don't we start with lowering monster defense and go from there?
@Baerk was't his ww barb doing 100k? so about a 20k loss? if so thats a big drop in damage

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Quote:
I thought I recalled seeing an upwards of 45% CTB on monsters in the monstats file for hell difficulty (I thought 30% was the more typical value I saw though for hell).
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/914/azcx.png oh well.... it's not like trash CTB means anything due to a3 merc??
Quote:
Even when the str bonus for melee weapons was slashed by a 1/3rd it caused pious's pure str barb to lose just under 1/5th damage (I was honestly expecting a bigger damage loss myself at first).
Yeah, I expected him to lose 95% of dmg, just because he was a PURE str 5 VITA build, sucker should invest into vita, cut that str bonus to 5% already :P.

@UP I didn't mean we should lower CTB for monsters, I just commented about Baerk's worry about not seeing actual %to hit chance while we CAN'T see it right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:40 pm 
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I'm not that worried about the CS lieing about the true chance to hit really.... It tends to lie like crazy for any ranged weapon attack anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:13 pm 

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The current patch is pretty balanced except for a few instances:
1) Barbs don't deal the same dps as elementals do for 3 reasons
a) boss phys resists are a little high and should be lowered
b) due to AR and ias they dont "hit" as often as elemental attacks
c) ed per strength was lowered and it should be restored
This class shouldn't be able to deal the same amount as elementals because they get more life per vita. Now if they want to deal the same damage or close to the same damage as elemental attacks then it should force them to give up all the extra life they get. How do you do this? entice players to move vit to str. Maybe even buff increased speed skill to get higher ias breakpoints and throw in critical buff like on maul druids, this way you will have to give up more dps at a cost of losing another skill.
2) Druids dont do the same because Imo they dont have enough life to pump str and go toe to toe w a boss. Especially while keeping oak up. Oak is still a necessity bc they dont get 4 life per vita. This is why HOW hasnt caught on as a sufficient supplement, its just not possible while pumping strength to get higher dps.
a) I would either make how and sob syn with lycan to give more life when in wolf or bear form and reduce oak % and make it synergize with lycan to make it give the same life as before when lycan is maxed.This way
b) you dont make fire druids stronger discourage from all fire power druids, but give fireclaw, fb, and melee druids more viability.

Just my thoughts


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:08 pm 

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CASTERS UNLEASHED. TROLL ME.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Prescot wrote:
About mele ar not entirely true cos ww barbs get round eve 30 or 40k ar


Prove it. My barb is ultra fucking pimped and he doesnt have 40k AR. Thats with 7 uber emeralds in his gear and metalgrid


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:57 am 
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jaykayrox wrote:
CASTERS UNLEASHED. TROLL ME.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:18 am 

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1 simple way to fix melees:

oskill lvl 1 fade on zod dagger re-instated.

long live the melees!


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:12 am 

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My vague ideas for fixing HU balance which have probably already been collectively stated:

-Restore CB to a reasonable amount(think 30% for 2h, 15% for 1H). Seriously, 1.2z CB values were fine outside of the huge CB you could stack from Ber runes in a Gris Caddy. Even in 1.2z psn>melee smiter with 40%+ CB. Easier to gear, safer, more solo-able, less juvs used, the list goes on. The only upside was the smiter had was being able to KB LoS anti-heroes. Really, 95% CTH+unblockable smite was the problem. The other melee builds NEED that high CB to even be viable most of the time.

-Nerf psn, fire druids, and maybe blizzard to something more reasonable(15-25% off their mid-endgame damage sounds good). Kevin's ideas on ele pierce nerf aren't bad either. I'd just be scared for all the classes that actually need and rely on it(aka sounds like a lot of work to balance).

-Hope for the best and wait for the new inevitable boss killer(my money's on FoH).

Happy to see people feel melee need some love though. It's ridiculous that it seemed people were scared of over 10% CB on a fucking melee 2her. Especially considering melee 2h haven't had a real place outside of trash/sub boss killer since the days of curse immune.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:43 am 

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drrod wrote:
-Restore CB to a reasonable amount(think 30% for 2h, 15% for 1H). Seriously, 1.2z CB values were fine outside of the huge CB you could stack from Ber runes in a Gris Caddy. Even in 1.2z psn>melee smiter with 40%+ CB. Easier to gear, safer, more solo-able, less juvs used, the list goes on. The only upside was the smiter had was being able to KB LoS anti-heroes. Really, 95% CTH+unblockable smite was the problem. The other melee builds NEED that high CB to even be viable most of the time.


I totally agree with this. The only reason melees were considered overpowered was because of smite and cb. We need to Restore cb, but limit it for smiters. You could add passive cb attached to a barb, druid, or melee skill. This way it would again force a player to make a choice of giving up a commonly used skill for one that gives passive cb. Like increased speed for barbs and wolf or bear for druids. I think it will unbalance too much if you do it through runes. I think if Melees are buffed in this way people won't feel the need to nerf poison, fire and cold as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:47 am 

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This is my thought exactly! Seems like theres so much hesitation to give buffs to a range of character that are pretty damn useless at getting anything done overall!

It really annoys me, because i much prefer playing melee than casters!

All that ever seems to happen is casters take nerfs :/

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:02 am 
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And do something with boss phys resists. Now with my barb wearing full ik gives 12 % LL, combined with rings it was 24 %. It was like nothing, for instance I can't stay alive with that in hell tundra. I've put some skulls in mace, and now its 48 % or something like that, still ain't something, before I could just stay alive and ww all day, now mobs own me.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:50 pm 

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Kruno wrote:
And do something with boss phys resists. Now with my barb wearing full ik gives 12 % LL, combined with rings it was 24 %. It was like nothing, for instance I can't stay alive with that in hell tundra. I've put some skulls in mace, and now its 48 % or something like that, still ain't something, before I could just stay alive and ww all day, now mobs own me.
Adjusting bosses phys res will have zero effect anywhere else in the game. Trash is trash and not controlled by that. I'm not in favor of nerfing boss res any further.
Delta wrote:
drrod wrote:
-Restore CB to a reasonable amount(think 30% for 2h, 15% for 1H). Seriously, 1.2z CB values were fine outside of the huge CB you could stack from Ber runes in a Gris Caddy. Even in 1.2z psn>melee smiter with 40%+ CB. Easier to gear, safer, more solo-able, less juvs used, the list goes on. The only upside was the smiter had was being able to KB LoS anti-heroes. Really, 95% CTH+unblockable smite was the problem. The other melee builds NEED that high CB to even be viable most of the time.


I totally agree with this. The only reason melees were considered overpowered was because of smite and cb. We need to Restore cb, but limit it for smiters. You could add passive cb attached to a barb, druid, or melee skill. This way it would again force a player to make a choice of giving up a commonly used skill for one that gives passive cb. Like increased speed for barbs and wolf or bear for druids. I think it will unbalance too much if you do it through runes. I think if Melees are buffed in this way people won't feel the need to nerf poison, fire and cold as much.
In part I do agree. That being said, adding cb as a passive to skill won't fix the issue. In reality, w/o a higher lvl amp (think necro) cb won't have much effect on bosses any way. While I do agree a melee tank should do some dmg, they should not be the primary dps, period. When melee is turned back into the one stop boss killer, caster/psn will be the novelty builds.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:52 pm 
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I meant do something about boss phys resists and just didn't explain further, what i'm saying did penalty for leech become even stronger, or just resists from mobs are higher?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:36 pm 

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a few options to consider:

return sucubi spawn on andy helm. melees need it to clear trash.

return cb to old values on all items except ber runes.

restore ed/str bonus %.

reduce boss physical resist 10%

reduce boss chance to block so melees hit more

remove defense from monsters/bosses. ffs, if a caster hits every single time with a spell why cant a melee with a swing? or maybe we should even out the playing field and make spells attack rating based.

im more keen on my last proposed change simply because i hate attack rating with a passion as a melee. after swinging many times only to miss over and over is so lame when i have to stack dr, block , absorb, resist, hp, dr% just to stand toe to toe with a boss, because so much attack rating is needed just to hit. it doesn't help either that the prime evils block.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:37 am 

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Fact of the matter plain and simple when buffing melees is if you allow melee to kill faster or as fast or even comparatively fast as a Ele char then you've completely failed in all levels of balancing. If I have to explain this then.....

Specifically Pious mentioned something regarding what is the exact ROLE of a melee character? No one has answered that therefor how can you conclude that they're underepowered or over powered?

Jay has thoroughly played a melee ww barb this patch and his opinion should be highly regarded as should those of others who've played melees this patch including myself. I have a L94 furydruid on HC.

I'll add more of my experience thus far and then let's see from there.

I don't agree with your point AR because AR has always been a facet of the melee character. It has never been a component of a caster character. Taking out an entire component just because the other type of character doesn't have it seems a bit over eccentric?

Again why are melee being compared to caster? You stated earlier that the actual role of a melee has to be decided. Has it been decided? Should they be just like casters with all the defense buffs,block, life buffs and still do the same damage if not more?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:06 am 

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Lee wrote:
Fact of the matter plain and simple when buffing melees is if you allow melee to kill faster or as fast or even comparatively fast as a Ele char then you've completely failed in all levels of balancing. If I have to explain this then.....

Specifically Pious mentioned something regarding what is the exact ROLE of a melee character? No one has answered that therefor how can you conclude that they're underepowered or over powered?

Jay has thoroughly played a melee ww barb this patch and his opinion should be highly regarded as should those of others who've played melees this patch including myself. I have a L94 furydruid on HC.

I'll add more of my experience thus far and then let's see from there.

I don't agree with your point AR because AR has always been a facet of the melee character. It has never been a component of a caster character. Taking out an entire component just because the other type of character doesn't have it seems a bit over eccentric?

Again why are melee being compared to caster? You stated earlier that the actual role of a melee has to be decided. Has it been decided? Should they be just like casters with all the defense buffs,block, life buffs and still do the same damage if not more?


Lee partialy I agree to you, why to remove ar or add it to casters. Just balance it enough so it can be obtained, but not that simple it is guaranted.

And about comparing mele to casters?? From all u listed only Block is something that gives mele adventage ... Most casters got same hp, even more def especialy sorcs, basicly all of casters use same defance buffs as mele does, cos they are oskilled all way thru, so where is this life adventage?? My maxed lyc/oak werewolf druig got same hp, as self buffed soso of my friend ... So i dont see why mele dmg shouldnt get buffed. I'v got zeal paly and mele zon this ladder, and to be true they sux, still my zon isnt 90+ but basicly her merc kill shit faster than she is ... And zealer needs to be godly twinked to even do dmg. Of course this changes a lot when amp comes into play. When playing with friends summoner necro, mele chars got stronger alot stronger just cos of amp he's spaming. Zealer duoed hell andy with amp from necro, so sure it is possible but now meles have to relay on nero to cast amp and to even be there. There is lack of amp sources, that doesnt require you to swich all time weapons or sacrifice alot dmg/hp/ress to get it. Thats just my point of view


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:32 am 
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1: Remove amp, have it lower enemies PDR instead or something so they take flat additional damage (much more necro friendly with multiple summons too)
2: Remove the amp effect from decrep
3: Set phys resistances in hell to be = NM phys resistances (trash too)
4: Remove the phys res from the boss hat's
5: Nerf tornado 20%
6: Remove necro lifetap (replace with another curse)

Problem solved and phys chars no longer REQUIRE a certain curse to deal damage to bosses and lifetap can't be used to cheese tank all bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:48 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
1: Remove amp, have it lower enemies PDR instead or something so they take flat additional damage (much more necro friendly with multiple summons too)
2: Remove the amp effect from decrep
3: Set phys resistances in hell to be = NM phys resistances (trash too)
4: Remove the phys res from the boss hat's
5: Nerf tornado 20%
6: Remove necro lifetap (replace with another curse)

Problem solved and phys chars no longer REQUIRE a certain curse to deal damage to bosses and lifetap can't be used to cheese tank all bosses.


I very much like this!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:57 pm 
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melee have always needed a source of amp for bosses problem is they now need a healer to keep then alive. And ofc like Prescot said they have no real sources of amp look at gores i mean wtf 1% chance to proc. melee can hurt bosses I've seen it. Can they leech anything with amp? Not beyond andy even with 40% life leech. O and then we nerfed diamonds great idea now casters have less survive ability, but we screwed melee in the process. either way a consensus must be made a patch would be nice but we arent going anywhere with this. Has no one else been able to kill hell bosses with melee? I mean it is currently possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:03 pm 

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dew wrote:
melee have always needed a source of amp for bosses problem is they now need a healer to keep then alive. And ofc like Prescot said they have no real sources of amp look at gores i mean wtf 1% chance to proc. melee can hurt bosses I've seen it. Can they leech anything with amp? Not beyond andy even with 40% life leech. O and then we nerfed diamonds great idea now casters have less survive ability, but we screwed melee in the process. either way a consensus must be made a patch would be nice but we arent going anywhere with this. Has no one else been able to kill hell bosses with melee? I mean it is currently possible.
Funny thing that idea of nerfing diamonds to hurt casters. Look at FA and warmth. Both add those very things back in so that nerf is a wash on a sorc. Barbs get soft pointed mdr/pdr from skills so they should (in theroy) suffer a bit less. One thing of note, lvl 3 amp is barely enough to break hell Baals phys res anyway as it's only good for 33%ish phys res reduction of 130% total phys res. So beyond Andy amp from procs is not going to do a lot to help out. Looking to add in the Blue's patch str buffs on gear would do nothing to help out vs bosses unless you run with an amp necro, which most don't do as lr is the preferred curse in most cases due to the fact too many players do not understand how to rotate curses for best effect. My FB drood has 50% ll and when hell Diablo is hit with decent amp, I do see a small amount of leech, which considering my relatively low phys dmg is about as I expected it. It's only enough to reduce dependency on juvs, and if running with a healer I almost never sip a pot. TBH, if I run with a healer I rarely need to gear with sorb rings, and the only thing I have to watch is IM.

Edit:checked amp values using a lvl 3 nec to check lvl on proc'd amp.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:34 pm 
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warmth grants no MDR, idk why that string was on there.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:06 pm 

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My main point is that melee is being compared too much to caster.

Casters don't yield the same properties as a melee character. They have overall less defense,life,abs,block, and dr. They are usually much more fragile than a melee character.

Continuing to compare melee to caster is the most stupid fucking thing ever.

It's like trying to say something is wrong with addition because it's not like subtraction.

A caster will and should always kill a boss much faster and better than a melee. A melee should be there to tank as the lead and support role.

Currently because you can kill bosses without melees tanking should make you ask the real question.

ARE MELEES BROKE? Or are the bosses broke? Why are casters able to kill bosses w/o melees to tank?!

ASK YOURSELF questions that really matter here and stop comparing melee to caster or you're going to turn HU into NOOBS UNLEASHED.

And if you guys want to play NOOBS unleashed(melees kill everything, casters kill everything, everything kills everything) have fun.. go at it.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:59 am 

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Lee wrote:
My main point is that melee is being compared too much to caster.

Casters don't yield the same properties as a melee character. They have overall less defense,life,abs,block, and dr. They are usually much more fragile than a melee character.

Continuing to compare melee to caster is the most stupid fucking thing ever.

A caster will and should always kill a boss much faster and better than a melee. A melee should be there to tank as the lead and support role.

Currently because you can kill bosses without melees tanking should make you ask the real question.

ARE MELEES BROKE? Or are the bosses broke? Why are casters able to kill bosses w/o melees to tank?!

ASK YOURSELF questions that really matter here and stop comparing melee to caster or you're going to turn HU into NOOBS UNLEASHED.

And if you guys want to play NOOBS unleashed(melees kill everything, casters kill everything, everything kills everything) have fun.. go at it.
Too many people are saying "melee is broke cuz I can barely scratch bosses" or something to that effect. The main role of chars such as barbs, druids and other primarily melee builds is just that TANK not primary dps. If you ever thought otherwise you've been deluded a bit. That being said, should melee do some dmg to a boss? Yes, but not on par with say a meteor sorc or a psn zon. When you look at melee having to contend with phys res, def and block of monsters it all makes sense. When the whole change to "fix" melee started it was really based on one single class/type of char, a smite pally. Why? Easy, smite never misses so mon def is no issue, cb was easy gotten and was extremely effective, they got insane att speed, and with old amp did good dmg as well. Furthermore they had good defensive buffs so they tanked extremely well all while destroying any boss they came in contact with as long as they had a small support team. IIRC a smiter with amp from atma and a healer could drop most any act bosses in a duo, coupled with good mercs for trash. Likely there were other melee doing it as well, but everyone pointed to smiters as the op build to fix.

People asking for reverting cb and str buffs are not going to see the huge dmg swings they believe they are, not a chance in hell with only those changes. Lowering mon res shouldn't be an option as it would once again give melee too easy a time vs bosses. I recall some one (not mentioning names here) complaining about not being able to solo hell Andy last patch, which imo in a team oriented mod is as should be. Changing amp progression could help and perhaps raising the cap on amp a tad. IMO, gear buffs could be set to the difference between 1.21z and 1.3a on all values including cb and not be op. Split the hairs with amp and should be good there.

Perhaps the biggest issue is the massive swing we saw between mancers last patch and the one that followed. Mancers patch may not have been perfect, but there was a reasonable balance to it. In that patch psn zons and fire droods weren't the team dmg dealers. But even then most melee weren't the primary source of dps on bosses, while still being relatively effective.

Just to recap a few things here. Boss phys res lowered a bit 10-15% overall, amp got a bit of a buff, drain effectiveness got buffed a tad. We saw a return of some cb/ds on weapons as well. Did we move the right direction? Yes, and likely needs another SMALL tweak so as not to be game breaking and have everyone screaming "melee has it TOO easy now".

"ARE MELEES BROKE? Or are the bosses broke? Why are casters able to kill bosses w/o melees to tank?!" Those who know the answer to this understand how the game should be played, those who don't want a version of HU to compare to cattle.net.

Edit: in case some wondered I voted no here.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Quote:
The main role of chars such as barbs, druids and other primarily melee builds is just that TANK not primary dps.
It's not WoW, chars here have one role - kill and gear up till 99lvl, it's a "primitive" rpg or hack'n'slash not RPG game. Every char should have equal chances vs bosses, unless immune.

Whole role point is just an excuse for not balancing mod futher, HU is pretty much dead as there is noone who can push changes on. There is 16 to 3 (my joke no vote count too) meaning... do something about it. Dunno who's in charge now, seems like Lee can block every idea pming Baerk on Bnet chat...

my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:39 pm 

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Steel wrote:
Quote:
The main role of chars such as barbs, druids and other primarily melee builds is just that TANK not primary dps.
It's not WoW, chars here have one role - kill and gear up till 99lvl, it's a "primitive" rpg or hack'n'slash not RPG game. Every char should have equal chances vs bosses, unless immune.

Whole role point is just an excuse for not balancing mod futher, HU is pretty much dead as there is noone who can push changes on. There is 16 to 3 (my joke no vote count too) meaning... do something about it. Dunno who's in charge now, seems like Lee can block every idea pming Baerk on Bnet chat...

my 2 cents.


i know where you're coming from.

the community (or whats left of it) wants melee buffs and that is what the community will get. lets not forget what happened to blue when he tried to go his own way. this poll is pretty 1 sided and i expect the people who dissent will accept fairly quickly that the question isn't whether melees should be buffed but rather how they will be buffed.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Someone needs to make a proposal and start testing it now instead of just lumping it in 1 month before a reset is expected...
Theory craft is great and all, but theres lots of time now to start actually working on this and taking time over it.

Options:
1: Spend 8 months talking about it (and fucking number crunching...) and 1 month implementing/testing.
2: Spend 1 month talking about it and 8 months implementing/testing/tweaking it so it's right.

Pick option 2 or you'll end up going around in circles like we have been for the last 2 years...

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:33 pm 
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I Agree with Kev and Pious so lets stop debating answer is clear they need a buff. put a list together of proposed buff and lets get it done. tbh we Don't need a reset yet so patch could go live on realm as a direct txt patch. then we will have a better idea of whats needed when its time for a reset. Would love to be able to make a melee at the start of a reset and not remake by a1 nightmare

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:38 am 

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Let's all fucking chill out before we start throwing axes and shit Lee's way because first of all I have no communicative means with Baerk AT ALL. I never once said that the changes won't happen. The poll is very one sided so it's obvious, however, I also said if people want NOOBS unleashed then go for it.

I made it simple.. comparing Melee to Caster is fucking retarded. As far as how much melee is buffed will just determine whether they dominate everything again like 1.21z. Basically Poison/Fire/FoH could be replaced by Melees with the buff.

I was trying to over throw Baerk not too long ago and now people are accusing me of working behind the scenes with him? I don't understand the thinking of some of you... I have nothing wrong with Baerk now but we do not discuss modding or anything of that nature in private.

So go ahead and work out a melee buff. If it's too much have fun watching melees roll everything again. Enjoy old times.

Btw I NEVER stated that melees never needed a buff. I just simply said comparing them to casters is retarded and their actual role is not really decided. Heading towards the last patch mancer left will just make them dominate everything again. If buffs are to be done do them wisely.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:31 am 
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I wondered how long it would be until the flames started rising. :mrgreen:

Remember that melees were gonna be buffed a bit more this patch but apparently, they could already rape hell diab/baal solo. At least that's what was being said during the short testing phase...
(again, the problem is lack of people actually testing, then jumping in later with complaints................. There was only I think 4 folks actually testing this and it was left to the last minute AGAIN)
I wasn't surprised in the slightest that melee still sucked, especially with the str bonus getting dropped again...

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:41 am 

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I don't know how others have fared with melee but my Fury druid raped Andy ezpz. It also can rape most subbosses in game. Obviously dury wouldn't work, never tried meph nor dia ofc cuz IM was buffed by Pious iirc.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:03 am 
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IM don't really matter tbh when your doing 0 damage. The only time its a worry is when you got a necro who is willing to amp over LR.

Hows the druid on bosses without amp?
My windy took down hell mithya without amp but it was looooooooong.

I wouldn't say its just melees that are the issue but phys damage in general once you hit hell. I'm better off just not attacking with nado vs bosses as the damage don't justify the counters caused. Vs hell diab, and seal bosses, I didn't even attack, just stood back and left it to pois. Kinda depressing when you are better doing nothing and causing no counters for the team because your damage is meaningless vs an ele build

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:28 am 

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Amp was the check and balance system that prevented melee from being OP. OP as in being able to solo and rape everything in the game.. people forget how powerful they are defensive wise or something? Barbarians, druids, paladins and even melee sins get high life. Druid and Barb being more stand out. Well there's a lot of IM now but before you had CI as well but Mancer caught on to that and removed CI. IM was the 2nd check and balance. IM wouldn't be relevant if Melee weren't so powerful. The combination of all their defensive attributes and the ability to reach high dmg makes them powerful.


Melee use to rape this mod if people have forgotten. Rape is a bad word... they use to obliterate everything and then Blue hammered them to Hell and now there seems to be confusion of whats satisfying for a melee thesedays.

If people want them back to what they use to be well what they use to be was complete gg rape. If they want that.. then ok have fun with it. Don't complain about OP melee or anything in that case.

By empowering them with the ability to solo as effective w/o a necros amp is basically shifting playability towards Melee because.. why the hell would u play a brittle caster over a power house melee?

This is simple logic btw.. just think about it.

I don't even think casters should be able to do bosses w/o a melee to tank.. but basically at this point casters CAN do bosses w/o a melee tanking. That defeats the purpose of team play.

It seems as if we are headed back to the direction of making this a more solo based mod and not a team oriented one. If that's what people want then so be it.

But if we are willing to do this for melees then why can't we give casters passive defensive abilities? Does it make a difference honestly?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:01 am 
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You are skipping over the fact that melee have no AoE and casters do.
Casters can already solo bosses without the need for a melee.
Casters can farm at a good speed and find items faster than a melee can.
Melee need the defensive stuff more than a caster because they are required to go toe to toe.

Casters already have defensive buffs: decoy, teleport, frozen armor, ES/Warmth combo, oak, ele armor, lycan, bo/shout/battlecry/stamina/skin/nat res (wc barb), CoS/Shadows, Golems/blades/curses, def auras, holy shield.
All those are available to casters and shine more on casters because they have more + skills than a melee so they are super effective with the stupid amount of + all skills on every caster item going, even 1 pointed. Casters can also go 100% life charms, while melee are required to carry half an inv+ of AR charms just to land a hit. Casters hit all the time, they don't have to worry about bosses block rate or def.

Sure gear has an impact, but you can't expect a char that triggers lots of counters, has IM to deal with and needs to be face to face to get away with using caster type gear.

Lee wrote:
This is simple logic btw.. just think about it.

As you probs gathered from above, I have thought about it and thought about def + off options, not just 1 or 2 select points.


I already said to nerf casters instead of buffing melee. I'd rather have casters nerfed than melee buffed too, but that didn't go down well...

The only thing melee is good for is slowing down casters. If there are no melee chars in the party then you can go LR and make full use of your DPS while the summons/recastables do the tanking.
When you done meph/diab on your druid, were you more useful attacking and triggering counters or standing back providing oak?
Keeping in mind that if you just stood out of the way, you wouldn't be drinking pots and the useful chars (caster types) could use the pots you saved by not attacking.

Should a melee be required to use 200 pots to remove 1/2 of a bosses HP + be reliant on a necro's amp when a caster can do it without really denting the belt they have without any curse support at all?
Or should all melee's be required to have a healer spamming bolts on them + a necro to amp for them to compete with a lone caster?

If the role of a melee is to be the only char type that requires 2 specific builds supporting it to be almost as effective as a solo caster then nothing needs to be changed. That's one role I won't be playing, I'll stick to casters I think (like everyone else it seems).

Anyway, this looks like its quickly degenerating into an argument. So on that note, I'm off to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:35 am 

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I agree to an extent with the top portion of what you said. It's true that casters have access to those defensive abilities but some melee have access to many of those as well.. rws etc. But you're correct, however, many of those defensive abilities won't save you from a boss. High life and DR will though.

When I was talking about casters.. I was talking about the more dominant classes that actually kill bosses etc. I don't think WC barbs or many other caster classes fit into that category. I'm thinking Blizz sorcs, Meteor sorcs, Firedruids, etc.

You made a lot of good points and I agree with you Kevin but my main point above all else is that becareful how much melee is buffed because if they're over buffed then EVERYONE will shift to play them and leave casters in the dust. Do we want that? That's the question.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:41 am 
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Lee wrote:
then EVERYONE will shift to play them and leave casters in the dust. Do we want that? That's the question.


That's a stupid assumption. People will play characters who they like to play with and know to play with.

Question is, do you want this type of situation at the realm to stay ( casters 95 %, melee 5 %) or try to even it out?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:45 pm 

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I agree that we should make casters be more dependant on melee chars for bosses.

Right now very few people make melee chars because nobody wants to be the useless char in a party. If we make melees become mandatory for every boss and some trash areas then people will be willing to make them and the fact that they dont do much damage wont matter because theyll be useful anyway.

Now how do you accomplish that I dont have enough experience in this mod but summons, decoys etc are probably still too strong (but valkyrie isnt lemme tell you)


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Kruno wrote:
Question is, do you want this type of situation at the realm to stay ( casters 95 %, melee 5 %) or try to even it out?


Problem is it will be impossible to even out unless every boss practically absolutely requires a melee/caster team somehow. As long as there remains any build that can feasibly solo there will always be a landslide of popularity to that particular build since people always obsess over using the best and tending to consider 2nd tier and below trash (thus the massive complaints when some certain build that is whoever's favored style isn't first tier such as caster/melee). Sadly the only time there's room for style is when the mod is easy. Any difficulty risks causing an obsession over the best or really good builds (thus the 95/5 caster/melee or vise versa distributions).

Taking this further... casters may need to become more fragile still (either through direct nerfing of caster tanking power or other means such as buffing boss firepower/melee sturdiness).

One would probably have to kill soloing entirely before we see distributions even out (but that in itself would probably generate its own uproars from the noobs that refuse to make proper teams). Personally I have doubts that boosting melee's offensive ability/decreasing monster's melee defensive ability is even the right direction to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:12 am 

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Poeple will play with the chars they want to play right? So what about people who always play meele chars. You think they are eager to play a caster? Some of them will just quit after a few tries with meele builds and see that they cant paly as they like. Come to think of it as i cant really see much players lately that it can be one of the reasons that there is not much players left.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:21 pm 
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The main source of vacancy is the length of this beta...where be the Dew man? At least folks are being pretty patient. I applaud this. Hopefully he will return to us soon to enact the changes that we have made.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:44 am 

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I like to play melee sin, so i have 2 sin with Dragon claw and tail, they have alot of defense ( 35k ) but I see this defense is useless on anymonster and boss althought they hit me at 5% and my dualclaw block rate is 62%?
And Hope Material Art will be always hits :D


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Are you running? enemies have a 100% chance to hit you when you are running (Worse than having 0 defense). Switch to walk + dragon flight teleport around for speed.
IIRC there is a major penalty to claw block too, cant remember if thats when moving in general or when running only though.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:21 pm 

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what iv noticed in the sort time on HU is that melee chars are not good for anything at all ... not good vs trash, not good vs act bosses, not good vs any other quest boss ... so they are just no good at all for nothing.. ( please don't say they are good for tanking cause any1 will agree that any summon that can be recast its better ) So what i think u need to give em 1 think where they are kings... i mean every char has its ups and downs but melee has only downs. Just my humble opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:46 pm 
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crhuion wrote:
( please don't say they are good for tanking cause any1 will agree that any summon that can be recast its better ).


disagree
having maxed every golem, blades, grizzly, dires, spirit wolves, oak, how, decoy, valk, s. master, and s. warrior I can say that they do not tank as well as my tank characters do because:
a. you cannot control their movement
b. you cannot pot them
c. you cannot suit them specifically for each fight (except golems in a sense)
d. they take like 10x damage vs bosses
e. cooldowns

the only advantage summons have over a main tank is that if they die it doesn't matter (and you don't have to build a character who is only useful for standing there and drinking pots lol)

I do agree with your other points, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Slappy, being a HC player you forgot to mention that summons are disposable, but players aren't. My summons will blindly go in fight even when they are going to die in 1 or 2 hits , saving my ass from certain rape at the cost of sacrifying themselves ; would you do the same for me? How kind of you ! ( you get my point :P )

Also golems are waaaay better than any melee player I would thought of for certain tanking
e.g: my forcegolem tanks hell cow king and Lazarus easy peasy while I spear them to death.
Not even mentioning how powerful are blades vs. down's syndrome AI bosses like Moloch, Amon, Andy, Dury... And again, they are recastable forever and ever. I'd like to summon your WW barb in battle, pretty sure it would be awesome XD!

Summing it up: "depends on the boss, depends of who are you playing with"

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:32 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
d. they take like 10x damage vs bosses
That's irrelevant as there are only 5 bosses(prime evils. lazarus, hatestorm etc. are super uniqs) and they're not tanked well by anybody.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:38 pm 
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tonykantos wrote:
Slappy, being a HC player you forgot to mention that summons are disposable, but players aren't. My summons will blindly go in fight even when they are going to die in 1 or 2 hits , saving my ass from certain rape at the cost of sacrifying themselves ; would you do the same for me? How kind of you ! ( you get my point :P )

Also golems are waaaay better than any melee player I would thought of for certain tanking
e.g: my forcegolem tanks hell cow king and Lazarus easy peasy while I spear them to death.
Not even mentioning how powerful are blades vs. down's syndrome AI bosses like Moloch, Amon, Andy, Dury... And again, they are recastable forever and ever. I'd like to summon your WW barb in battle, pretty sure it would be awesome XD!

Summing it up: "depends on the boss, depends of who are you playing with"


I did say that summons are disposable read again!
Yes your fire golem tanks better than your necro does, but not better than my druid with a fire sorb shield

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Ok, ok, stronger than the average wannabe-tank, not your VikingSmasher

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:13 am 

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Are you running? enemies have a 100% chance to hit you when you are running (Worse than having 0 defense). Switch to walk + dragon flight teleport around for speed.
IIRC there is a major penalty to claw block too, cant remember if thats when moving in general or when running only though.

No, Just Walking, Whirlwind and dragon Claw, monters still hit me ???


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:02 pm 
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protoszerg wrote:
No, Just Walking, Whirlwind and dragon Claw, monters still hit me ???


Weapon Block does NOT work when running or walking. It only works while standing still, attacking, or casting spells.
You can find that information here:
http://www.diablowiki.com/Weapon_Block_%28Diablo_II%29
But, I've also tested weapon block multiple times myself and got the same results.

Your best strategy is to limit movement by using Dragon Flight.

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