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 Post subject: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:49 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
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Most of us knows what this means and for the few who don't just look at the name. I made this topic because I've seen and hear about people all the time lending items and not receiving them back and other things etc.

Going to share this quick story and make a point.

Today I logged on 3-4 hours ago and immediately a guy with the acc *Qwazym messages me and says come "qw1". As soon as I joined the game and partied I saw him in WSK2. I didn't even have to ask why he wanted me to join the game because I already knew. He wanted me to kill NM Baal for him.

I had a char in NM and wanted to leech the quest so I asked him to host on a Opener and he did. I had my cousin get on my laptop next to me and run my char while I rushed it to A5 because ironically I knew *Qwazym would not help/rush or anything of that nature.

Of course nm baal was killed w/o me getting to leech the quest.

Now let me share this next point:

*Qwazym is always asking for my help constantly ALL the time and what do I do? I rush/help him consistently and even hook him up with items. When it comes time to reciprocate aka give back he never does jack shit.

So whats the lesson today? Stop doing shit for free. Let people do their own shit. Stick to the few people who you trust/play with aka your closer friends/party and fuck everyone else.

Of course not everyone is this way but sadly many are. So to the people who keep lending out items, doing quests for people, killing bosses and having their shards stolen, loot etc. when they spend their time helping people who can't do shit without their help STOP DOING IT!

I learned something too. I had no right to be upset or mad at Qwazym for not helping me because it was my fault for helping him. Had I not helped him at all in the first place on any occasion then I wouldn't have any reason to be upset. I wasn't upset and I don't care. I just made this post because of all the people who constantly complain/bitch when they do free shit and something happens. IT'S YOUR FAULT FOR HELPING THEM!

Main point: Stop doing shit for free and you won't have any reason to be pissed off or upset when someone screws you over for your kindness.

#inb4movedtoargumentforum

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:59 am 
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ROFLCOPTER I saw the name of your thread and in my head said "Qwaz". Then continued to lol as I read your story. I don't think that guy has done any quest beyond a4 NM himself, he is always sitting at a boss asking for someone to kill for him with a party full of useless characters or a game full of leachers. Other than that, I always hear him asking for items. /qwaz

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:59 pm 

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lol UPDATE: Qwaz fire druid died doing it. They never got to finish and now games dead. Karmas a bitch!

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:01 pm 

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lol all i got to say:

ANTIRUSH SYSTEM!

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Imperial wrote:
lol all i got to say:

ANTIRUSH SYSTEM!


yes plz

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:11 pm 
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This mod only really has one anti-rush measure though that actually works. That being TPs (the vanilla TP scroll sense) are disabled so that one actually has to run the WPs. Trevor managed to take things a bit farther in AM by making forced min level requirements in order to progress as well as a hindrance known as WP keys (the keys didn't really slow down the rushing, but the level requirements to avoid instant health crush to 1 and death could).


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:15 pm 
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I feel that it's the act-to-act and/or difficulty-to-difficulty anti rush that needs improvement... then again most people know how to 'bug' the game...

about the TP's, I actually always thought it would be a cool idea to have Hell Baal or someone have a chance to drop one scroll of town portal :)

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:34 pm 

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Making anti-rush measures on HC is stupid for several reasons. First the community is vastly smaller than SC. It's most of the time very dead and even SC I hear isn't doing so great now days. The mods community size just isn't big enough to avoid rushing. If it was possible to play through with random people then I doubt rushing would have any point at all but you simply don't have the luxury of logging on and finding full games of people doing quests. That's a factor.. obviously not the only one but a major one so keep that in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Well one thing that Trevor never implemented because everyone vehemently opposed was an aura that would cripple/kill someone for being too high level.

Other things Trevor did though were actually quite ingenious... Put warriv in jail lvl 2 so that someone couldn't just simply leech onto the next act without even leaving town. He slapped meshif in a dungeon under lost city. Also he put the a4 tyreal that allows you to go to a5 beyond a set of tunnels that you enter near RoF WP and at the end of those tunnels you have to take on a Hell's Gate where there's 3 bosses all in close proximity in a not so big area waiting for you (and you have to kill a particular one of the bosses to open the portal).

Personally I think the quest protected portals could do a lot to slow down the rushing. However... I do have one idea in my head that could lessen the dependance of the rushees on the rusher.

There would be one particular required boss in the act with a special checker in it's area that would health crush someone for being too high level. Due to this special checker the high level rushers have no shot at helping the rushees with a required fight. The ideal boss would be one required to progress, but isn't really a farming target. One of the quest bosses could be made the boss or some new boss could be added that drops some new item mandatory to progressing (much like the WP bosses in AM). Or maybe something else could be used besides level...

Considering that in AM that there's actually a special aura that can increment a special counter saved on the player whenever it pulses it probably would not be a big stretch to create a death effect that would increment a hidden counter as well. This hidden counter would server as a limiter to prevent people from setting up a reserve of appropriately leveled rushers that are pimped out with godly gear to kill the boss for the rushees dozens of times over. While yes there's ways to keep a death proc from going off (and thus not incrementing the counter) at the same time there's also ways to make it so you'll only get the important items if the death proc's able to trigger (because it's a death proc that gives you the items).

This particular mandatory boss does not have to be particularly tough even... anyways... I'm just throwing thoughts around. It still needs to be a measure that does the job appropriately without being too obtrusive.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:09 am 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:46 pm
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lee,

what i see a decent anti rush doing is forcing players to learn how to play. by that i mean makin a damn support necro and psn char, cause lets face it thats the best way to progress! ;)
but lets face it anti rush will never happen and wouldnt work right if it did happen ^^

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:17 am 

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I'd say it's more about an attitude and learning to play...Some builds simply suck at low lvl other dont (im talking about norm.). And since the community got helved even in SC I think tha rushing is something "needed" note i say needed maybe at some stages with some builds, not seomthing to rely on when killing bosses; others you kill the fun.
And as pointed by Lee the best anti-rush system is yourself, since everyone knows how to bug norm. games.
I say if ppl have fun rushing his chars all the way to hell and then go exp i say let them do so, i'll never do that or help them do that and that's enough for me.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:01 am 
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One note about that hidden counter thing. Depending on the save field size we could intentionally have it roll at a semi low value (such as roll back to 0 when going past 255). Whenever the counter rolls over it means a high level char could rush a brand new group to hell if they wanted to. However, if they quickly wanted to rush an other new group they would have to defeat a particular boss hundreds of times in order to roll the counter again (putting a ton of tedium on the rusher's side without putting any extra on the low level rushee's side).

The counter could also be used to make some dedicated low level rusher be forced to progress forward slowly since the counter would not allow them to stay in a couple given acts to rush people through dozens of times.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:57 am 
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Baerk wrote:
Well one thing that Trevor never implemented because everyone vehemently opposed was an aura that would cripple/kill someone for being too high level.

Spiderweb aura.
It was my idea that I suggested to Soulmancer several years ago, but no one has ever really wanted to end rushing so no one has ever implemented it. It would do the trick though.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:46 am 
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There's a few vocal people that just don't want anti rush. They want to get to end game asap and play dressup, that's there game play and they enjoy it.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:03 pm 

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The flip side is people are making "bugged games" and bypassing the anti-rush entirely. First groups doing it were on HC, and they have the "pure" anti-rush. IMO, revert it back as the community size has shrunk. If people don't want high lvls in their games there are lvl restricts.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:10 pm 
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stars wrote:
There's a few vocal people that just don't want anti rush. They want to get to end game asap and play dressup, that's there game play and they enjoy it.


A comment like that proves that far too much effort went into making end gear good compared to the rest of the mod's gear. Also I agree with kwikster there's nothing to be gained from an easily bypassed anti-rush measure (such as the bugged games).


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:26 pm 

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You just have to take into consideration several things when considering anti-rush measures.

First of all how big is the community? It makes a tremendous difference and second of it all how many people actually want anti-rush measures? There are not many and part of it is due to the first measure above. Community size.

It's pointless at this stage. If HU had double or maybe triple the current size then it would be worth mentioning but adding something like anti-rush is going to be crippling for the players that aren't as skilled and a major turn off for the more skilled players.

Again it's mainly about community size. There just aren't many people playing HC anymore 10~ or less actively. I don't know how SC is but with such low numbers anti-rush just has no merit.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Lee wrote:
You just have to take into consideration several things when considering anti-rush measures.

First of all how big is the community? It makes a tremendous difference and second of it all how many people actually want anti-rush measures? There are not many and part of it is due to the first measure above. Community size.

It's pointless at this stage. If HU had double or maybe triple the current size then it would be worth mentioning but adding something like anti-rush is going to be crippling for the players that aren't as skilled and a major turn off for the more skilled players.

Again it's mainly about community size. There just aren't many people playing HC anymore 10~ or less actively. I don't know how SC is but with such low numbers anti-rush just has no merit.


I think you have it backwards. I see it as the larger the community the less need for antirush, while the smaller the community the larger the need for antirush.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:43 pm 

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OK that makes no sense at all but feel free to explain your statement.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:02 pm 
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If there are less players, then finding a party is harder if everyone else is rushing their own chars in priv games.

IMO the only fun time to play HU is the start of the ladder when nobody is strong enough to rush. After the first month or so, it gets insane and the only way to progress is to do like everyone else, and or do some massive twinking.

Having every single slot loaded by someone every time you are about to do a quest is annoying too. Spawning the boss first then loading don't make it any better either. That's why I insist on spawning with the number of chars (including town leechers) in game. Still get complaints about 8 spawning from the folks with 5 loaders in town...

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:40 pm 
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stars wrote:
There's a few vocal people that just don't want anti rush. They want to get to end game asap and play dressup, that's there game play and they enjoy it.

I call it Barbi for Boys.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:43 pm 

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I can go either way with the anti-rush stuff(speaking for HC here). The start of a ladder is indeed the most fun time of the whole season. But after the initial rush dies down there are pretty much no parties on HC even capable of advancing the game "legit". There is simply a lack of players or parties that are knowledgeable/skillful enough to go all the way to Hell on their own.

I would hate to see what the HC population would be looking like right now if you couldn't rush(aka bugged games). I'd guess at least half the population on HC are players that are more casual/inexperienced with going through the game without help or massive twinks.

Whether there is a anti-rush or not makes no difference for these casual players, as the more experienced guys are going to want to play with others that know what they're doing for the most part. You just cannot have sympathy for inexperienced players on HC because their mistakes can cost you YOUR character. Therefor in my mind if a anti-rush system truly worked on HC half the population would simply quit because they aren't going to be able to advance in the public games just by partying up with other inexperienced players. And when people aren't advancing at a reasonable rate they lose interest fast.

Even WITH being able to rush on HC this season there are only a handful of players that can even play late game Hell(or even untwinked play through norm/NM for that matter) without their hand being held. A lot of them are just players that came from HC B.Net and jumped right into HC HU which is believe is a huge mistake. Because to be a contributing party member in a HC team you have to know the mod well, know your characters strengths/role in the team, etc. Otherwise you're just getting in the way and making things harder.

Not sure how much this rant relates to SC if at all. I know this mod will always be based around SC play so feel free to ignore it.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Worst thing about it IMO is people get sooooooo pissed because person 1 didn't rush person 2. or person X had Y number of loaders that needed the quest and person Z wouldn't drop their level 1 char that also needed nm diab or something retarded.

I wonder how many of the fall outs on HC this year had something to do with rushing/leeching. Gotta be at least 90%

I don't mind someone loading 1 char thats been stuck or whatever. 2 is pushing it but passable depending on how stoned I am. Once it starts getting to 3-4-5 loaders for 1 player (if it's a pub game ofc, if it's their priv game then who cares?) I usually leave after that quest and go priv myself, cos I don't really wanna carry someones entire account through the game.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:54 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
people get sooooooo pissed because person 1 didn't rush person 2


Happens to me both ways, forget to load a friend and he gets upset for leaving him behind, forget to load myself and Imp gets angry and starts calling me Lee.


drrod wrote:
Whether there is a anti-rush or not makes no difference for these casual players, as the more experienced guys are going to want to play with others that know what they're doing for the most part.


Well said. Then I wonder how we ended up with as many people in Hell and ponder who might be killing NM Baal for them.. lol

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:51 pm 

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i can see where you're coming from ben. i'm a bit on the middle on this issue as well. as a veteran player i loathe playing every.. single.. character through the game when i need a specific char that will only serve a specific purpose for an end-game boss (like los or hell sammy).

however anti-rush won't change much for the big picture. i have no mercy for casual players on hc because if they can only get through the game via a rush they shouldn't be at that point in the game in the first place. would a new anti-rush system suddenly encourage me or other veterans to play public games instead of private? no way!

the obvious outcome of any anti-rush system is that the better players will still get through quickly and efficiently while the newer ones will suffer manifold more. casual players often don't understand how to obey instructions from veterans (and even get angry when they are told what to do!) or to keep their hands off loot when all they do is leech. for this reason they don't deserve to be at a further point in the game than they can pull themselves to.

personally the best anti-rush method is simply to refuse helping or giving items to casual players. it has worked time and time again and i used to see ladders progress very slowly on hc because i refused my team to help/give items to any others on hc. this is a matter of playstyle, and i believe it should be in the hands of the players to decide for themselves instead of forcing a system upon everyone that is not going to achieve the desired goal (more party play).

i do support some anti-rush to the point of it making the game more fun (removing tp's for example) or even the quest locks that forced you to clear more of each act per play. the whole system of penalizing players via some aura or pulse is just foolishness. it won't even work if said player used ranged attacks to 1-2 shot a boss in normal via his merc. its also not going to stop players with cyclone armor/bone armor/diamonds from shrugging off the dmg from a normal boss. nor is it gonna stop party-buff chars from just dropping a massive buff on low-lvls to go smash the boss on their own.

like i said before, for every hindrance you add to rushing a veteran can still get by while a casual player is gonna suffer more from it. these changes won't encourage team player either, so what exactly would they accomplish?


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:32 pm 

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Ben and Pious made great points and this post is probably just further reiteration but basically any anti-rush measures would have negative results. You may prevent rushing but you're hurting the community in the process so it doesn't accomplish much.
The newbies who rely on more skilled players to advance will simply quit. It's already happened so many times. I can just think of the people on HC who quit after they lost hope for advancing due to parties breaking up etc. and I'm sure it's similar on SC. Nothing good will come from anti-rush measures at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:09 pm 

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Most people are going to disagree but I think loader ruins the game pretty much. Instead of playing in a party people just lvl BOers, oak bitches and play alone. with their loaders.

Bad example maybe but I remember battle net being so much fun when nobody had d2loader. Games couldnt happen without a barb for bo etc.. so it forced people to make builds that completed a party.

That being said I have no idea how to remove d2 loader or multiple computers being used.


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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:47 am 

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MaMaLuLu wrote:
Most people are going to disagree but I think loader ruins the game pretty much. Instead of playing in a party people just lvl BOers, oak bitches and play alone. with their loaders.
One HUGE part of why a lot of people run loaded games is for mfing and farming certain bosses without fear of some noobassed person in a pub stealing their shards or other good gear. Loader also gives you the ability to mule in relative safety as you don't need to depend on another person being in game to hold it. I like the loader idea, wish bnet would have made it standard or at least a shared stash.

MaMaLuLu wrote:
Bad example maybe but I remember battle net being so much fun when nobody had d2loader. Games couldnt happen without a barb for bo etc.. so it forced people to make builds that completed a party.
Bnet has always banned for loader. What ruined bnet are the bots, d2jsp and the sites selling items. Shit, I can remember when trade currency was soj's and sojs had no lvl req. As to the bolded section, this is a TEAM based mod, a good group can make short work of most any area. They just need to compliment each other. I certainly don't want to see HU made as easy as vanilla, for those who want to play solo.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Loader is simply a crutch for most. Saying that the a huge part (implying the main reason?) is so others can't leech the loot, and for muling is bogus at face value. Saying that oh i just want more xp/higher drop chance totally ignores that you can have a bobitch at sagewhore nearby which makes life immensely simpler.

I know the majority will not let go of the tool, but I have never liked the idea of being able to use it on a realm.

Loader was used for a long time on bnet with little to no punishment. Eventually punishment was (ban) done...many still bypassed it for quite some time. Now, it is finally not used much on the bnet realms due to what little remains of warden.

People ruined bnet with unabashed greed. JSP would have never survived if it were not for needy/neverhavelostadamnthingeverbecauseiamaweiner crowd.

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 Post subject: Re: #Freeloaders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:18 am 

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yeah good idea prevent rushes then everyone and their mother will have to make a fire druid/psn java/necro in order to get any kind of wealth and we'll see even more of them than we already do

like i think it would be a good idea if the game was more balanced but as it is theres like 3-4 viable chartypes u can use to not suck monkey balls in hell by yourself


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