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 Post subject: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:06 am 
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The nerf to +Ele on crafts has left most of the use for topaz's on Rings and Ammys.

No more cold gloves or poison belts or lightning boots. The only one I can argue for is fire helms as immozons and dtail can still make great use of them.

No one is going to craft topaz belt after topaz belt when Arach gives 2 skills and 10 pierce.

12/-12 cold gloves? Not worth the hassle when you can get Drainer's and an easy 2 skills with the amount of pierce Fathom is capable of.

Lightning boots? Sin's get amazing pierce in 2x claws and +1 +3 Trap boots with a load of mana will trump +3 trap +12 light boots every time when sins struggle with mana anyways.

I really understand that the + damage% seemed to be a major issue but the more and more I think about it the less sense it makes to have done this. Sure the crafts may be helpful when leveling and looking for better gear but who wants to waste a MS Topaz on a piece of gear you will probably replace at nightmare tundra anyway?

I think Death Crafts and Elemental Crats may need some love thrown there way.


Another thing re-rolling is still a pain in the ass. The inability to re-roll whites is also an issue I'd like to bring up as I thought it was going in but mostly forgot about it with the other stuff that got brought up.

If I think of anything else I'll rage later that's all I got at the current time.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:57 am 
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I was wasn't a fan of the reduction on all the ele shit from the start. Also, caster crafts are over the top. With the masses and masses of fcr, flat mana, mana% + res you can get and + 1 skills on helm, gloves, boots, shields and armor...

Silkweaves are now useless, magefists are pretty much useless by act 4, and the majority of caster helms are useless. 200fcr on a sorc is pretty much standard now with little need to use amn runes to hit it. Even 232 fcr on a pally isn't too hard to get with caster crafts. Maybe +1 skills on MS caster crafts, not needed for Nm though. The massive mana and fcr boost on caster crafts are good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:06 pm 
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I just feel like they got nerfed into uselessness. Glad I'm not the only one.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:15 pm 

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+3 trap lightning boots which I will aim for because it is more dps and I don't have mana issues because I use life/mana GC's.

I like crafting, but, topazes being so valuable was kind of annoying. Spread the love to other crafts. In doing so have it harder to achieve a good craft as well. Its not really the topaz crafts fault that elemental specs are probably the most in demand craft.

That said casters in HU are given tools to completely override other specs. -res itself is blatantly overpowered. As you will find many physical specs never begin to do 100% of their damage due to defenses.

Fire druid compared to a Immozon is a good example.

Immozons have to deal with cold, slow, decrep, that one spell that slows attack speed and freezes casting, which can all be applied at the same time. While a fire druid does not have to worry about these, instead they get the advantage of amethyst crafts to make it even easier. Its pretty much the same said about any class that has poor mobility and requires alot IAS as apposed to FCR as a dps upgrade.


Want to know how powerful -res is? And, why its still the best stat in the game?

This powerful...











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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:12 pm 

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I agree, and to get a perfect craft isnt that easy anyway it usually takes some time. Gief 20/20 crafts back or at least 18/18.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:33 pm 
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What Amethyst crafts do you use on a fire druid -none? Lore Treks Mother Nature

Fire Druids are affected by Mon Decrep and the Slow aura of Liches and are unable to cast without enough FCR.

-112 Pierce from two claws on sins I'm sure you aren't hurting for pierce. I use to solo Dragon on my zon with 3x Ist T-Strokes and a Glorycrest so I'd have -40 pierce from Belt and Griffs. He was poison immune and died the same speed without the immunity listed. I'm not sure Dragon's Immunities work other than cold.

Also : MDR is still the best stat in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:56 pm 

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@Mud the only reason that you're able to kill him isn't because your pierce breaks his immunity it's a display error on some bosses that happens occasionally. It will spawn/say immunity to a certain element and not be immune. Anything that is truly ele imm you won't kill with pierce.

No one uses ele crafts anymore because they were nerfed too much.

You're now better off with uniqs more or less..

I.e. arach > perf poison belt.

I agree though that elemental crafts did get shafted and are now less used as a result.

In my opinion.. it'd be better to take ele crafts back to what they use to be. It was 10-20/10-20

The variables are high. It's not easy to hit 20/20.

People crafted a lot as a result of this. No one is crafting anything ele worth other than rings and ammy now I guess.

Pois can maybe be left alone but the rest didn't really actually need to be shafted. Poison was the main concern on damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:51 pm 
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I thought I was the only one who felt this way. An Arach is a 20/-10 Belt in all honesty 1 Skill is equal to 10% in my experience on poizons.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:41 pm 

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LockDown wrote:
I thought I was the only one who felt this way. An Arach is a 20/-10 Belt in all honesty 1 Skill is equal to 10% in my experience on poizons.
Totally agree here. One thing I did say when patch was being worked up was pierces are way ez to get. I see both sides of this discussion, and understand the thinking. I felt then, and still do, that reducing pierces without adjusting monster res/sorbs was a better choice. Now when we see Baal he has 95% plr on all diffs(per chart here: http://sites.google.com/site/hudatabase/boss-resists. A bit harsh coupled with the nerfs to poison zons. Truth be told, the reason psn toons got so much notice was because of the phys res fiasco of last patch. They had similar skill progression in 1.21z compared to 1.3a and no one complained they were op. What changed was gear got tweaked, ele crafts got improved, resulting in a huge swing in how they functioned. IIRC it was possible even in 1.21z to hit 300k+ on a psn zon and a nec, not sure about rabies.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:32 pm 
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1.21 20% inc on top craft was max
1.31 20inc 20pierce on top craft was max
1.32 12/12 is max.... We believed that giving one extra stat (pierce) to topaz crafts was too much so we reduced both inc and pierce this patch to balance casters.

Are you sure that craft mods are weak or rare/auto mods just suck that much? IMO rare/automods were always lacking anything interesting, body armor, shield, gloves,boots and gloves were only source of %/pierce nothing more compared to uniques/set items.


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:52 pm 
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It may be the possible mods from crafts are lacking compared to uniques the only good things are the +%/-%.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Ensuring the crafts are actually relatively equal with the competing sets/uniques is not going to be a simple matter of adjusting only the cube recipes. There's often multiple uniques/sets for a given slot and build in each of the given normal/exceptional/elite tiers. To keep the automod tables relatively simple it's made so that crafts have only one automod set for each gear tier.

What makes things tricky from here is should the sets be comparable to the lower end, mid range, or the higher end of the sets and uniques it would be competing with? In the case of the +%/-% crafts there currently no existing affixes that would give +%/-% for casters. While nothing prevents me from adding such mods it doesn't change the fact that rare affixes of that nature would have to exist in order for crafts to be comparable to uniques/sets at all levels within a tier.

Without those rare affixes being available which is the current situation we're going to have the situation of one side dominating the other anyways. If we set the crafts to mid range of the tier then the crafts would dominate early on within a gear tier and uniques/sets winning out later and so fourth.


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:26 pm 
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i liked gems as currency

Zikur wrote:
either new ele rings are too strong or the rest of the crafts are too weak.

i knew itz ! (kinda) [claim]

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Last edited by Zikur on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:05 pm 

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It doesn't make much sense to me. The crafts are there for a reason.. crafting has always been a unique way to achieve an item.

The variables on crafts were 10-20/10-20. That requires extensive crafting/gems to achieve a 20/20.

A great almost perfect craft should top uniqs otherwise no one is going to actually craft.

So what's the point? Why nerf them to 12/12 if no one is going to actually use them over uniqs.

Crafting has to have some superior value on the top end of the luck spectrum to be worth wasting the time gfing/getting the gems.

By nerfing crafts you essentially ruin a part of the game that was very much enjoyable and makes the ladder last longer.. because craftings uniqueness never really dies. The variables of possible great crafts are endless.

End point:

It's idiotic to nerf crafts to what they are now ( Elemental speaking ) because they WON'T ever be used and it eliminated a part of the crafting spectrum that was once widely used.

Again.. 20/20 doesn't just come off one gem. It takes a lot of gems/time. You can roll 15x and end up with nothing better than 15/15.

The chances of 20/20 mathematically speaking are low as hell.

Advice.. take them back to what they use to be or just eliminate them altogether as no one is going to waste their time crafting when they have superior end game uniques.

This advice applies to any and every form of crafting not just elemental.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:47 pm 
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I just ran some hard numbers and I'm starting to wonder if you guys are just blowing things out of porportion.

I did a damage comparison between lvl 36 and lvl 38 firestorm. The increase of damage from the base skill tier damage increase of +2 skills (such as the soul drainers for example that were mentioned earlier) from lvl 36 was only a 12.3% damage increase (thus making it practically equal to +12% fire spell damage assuming you don't have any yet). The open ended tier 5 starts roughly soft level 28 and never increases the amount given per soft level after soft level 28. This means +2 skills could only give a smaller % boost in damage past soft level 36. Many bosses in hell have base non magic resists that are frequently 50+. This means you would have to get 50+ pierce before you would even begin considering further pierce on equal damage boosting grounds with +% element damage.

Considering elite element craft gloves are +12/-12 for top end and the fact soul drainers only boost firestorm's raw damage 12.3% at lvl 36 (and this isn't even boosting pierce) are the elite crafts really that bad in the first place?


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:59 pm 
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The crafts are definitely much weaker than they were previously. That being said; they were incredibly strong last patch and if you weren't using them you were just plain gearing badly. A decent elemental craft outclassed just about any unqiue you could come across. A godly -20/+20 with stats and/or life made an absolutely insane item.

I'd suggest -10% to -20% on elemental pierce and 5%-10% skill damage. 20% pierce on a single item is humungous and is worth using over most +skills gear. Add in the fact crafts can spawn with +Str/Dex & Life (to name the most sought after mods), you have a set of items worth crafting over a unique counterpart. In my opinion, crafting is primarily a way to twink your character, as rolling an amazing craft takes a lot of time and effort.
An absolutely godly craft should outclass what a unique counterpart can offer in most situations.
That being said; I'd rather not see -20%/+20%, 10+ Str, dual resistance cold gloves running around. It's quite the possible roll, I had it last season.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:08 pm 
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I wasn't speaking for all skills Baerk only giving an example for Ele Belts.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:00 pm 

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The ideal gloves for a Firedruid are Mothernature(+6 fstorm/10% fire dmg) and . Lavagout is also +2fire/-10. What about armageddon? How much does +2 add to armageddon? I'm sure it's much closer to ~18-20% as it's a little higher than fstorm.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:06 am 
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what about meeting in the middle at 10-16% on MS?

There is still too much pierce around in the end game IMO. I'd prefer 100% as the top end on pierce end game vs the current ~125. Nerfing +% had very little effect as the +%'s have just been replaced with + skills so the damage isn't far off the same as ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:24 am 
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I find the idea of +skills completely replacing +% elemental because of a nerf a bit ridiculous myself. Sure further skills may not start fading for overall DPS boost till past lvl 30 but once you get past that point it becomes like any other mod. There's just simply going to be a point where you have so many +skills that it's going to be easier to boost your damage through an other dimension (+% elemental, -enemy resists) than it is to boost through +skills.

Anyways my fire glove example was a bit of a mismatch element, but the point that some of the +skills isn't as strong as people thought still holds. Anyways... let's hold a serious comparison now using the following element split up as reference:

ele glove = cold +/- 9-12
ele boots = lightning +/- 9-12
ele helm = fire 9-12
ele belt = poison +/- 9-12
ele shield = magic +/- 8-16
ele torso = multi-ele pierce 7-12/+ 1 skills
ele ring = +7-8% ele
ele amu = +12-14% ele

Also concerning your 15-20% remark for armageddon remark lee. I just did a single player check for armageddon to specificly see how much armageddon's damage rose from lvl 36 to lvl 38. The burn damage rose 9.6% and the initial impact damage rose 9.8%. lvl 28 to 30 would be higher since it's the start of the tier 5 zone (and also probably from where people get their idea that each +skill is 8-10% always).


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:28 am 
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Arach > Ele Belts (Arach shits all over this.)
Griffs > Ele Helms
Drainers > Cold Gloves
3 Trap 12/-12 are the only Ele Craft that is decent and outshines other options. But trapsins are easy mode so it doesn't really matter. 1 All 3 Traps is really still pretty close to this. with you being able to hit -112 with two claws alone.


Ele crafts blow.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:59 am 

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Well +1/+3 jav gloves.

Rings/Ammies.

Other than that..yeah kinda pointless


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:35 am 

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Ele crafts virtually didn't exist before 1.3a and were severely OP when released. People got spoiled by them. In 1.21z you crafted boots for +6-12% psn and an armor for -6-12% Blue integrated and made them stronger (the crafts are once again lister on http://critterkiller.arimyth.com/). They needed to be toned down a bit, but like many things the pendulum swung too far. Small changes do have major impacts as we all can attest if we have played any length of time. Compare 1.21z to 1.3a to 1.3b. The "flavor of the month" has shifted yet again. Some changes I like others not so much. Some nerfs were a bit harsh, like the decoy nerf and the decimation of feral on anything outside of a fury drood. Change things, yes, kill them, no.

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Last edited by kwikster on Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:39 am 
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Was just a list for Baerk of items that out class crafts

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:42 am 

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Ya I get what you're saying. Some though want the old ele crafts, not a fan of that scenario.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:53 am 

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I just looked at the old crafting section on critter. max to any ele on crafts in 1.21 was 12_ same with pierces. What did change between 1.21 and 1.3 is they are now integrated on the same item, belt for psn, as opposed to boots for psn skill and armor for pierce. Unless that info is incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:47 am 
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I just personally looked at arachs and compared it to ele belts... Personally the difference does not look so clean cut to me (actually looks rather close). I'm going to need a some more information from you lockdown (since unlike Zeras you're at least willing to get into genuine specifics). The questions are as follows:

How many +skills do you presume builds are getting from the rest of the gear besides the contested slot in question? (if you don't have an answer for this I'll presume at least +16 due to all charms except mancers and char using the 95 unique) How much +%ele do you think the builds are getting outside of sorcs? (estimates are fine) How much -enemy resist do you think builds will be getting from rest of gear as well? (estimates are also fine)

With this further info I will actually be able to do number crunching that will objectively determine which is truly better. If I find any comparison where the crafts are truly weaker you have a genuine case and I'll be perfectly willing to talk over how to go about somewhat buffing it to something between the current and last patch's.


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:14 am 
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I know my Druid get's 86% Mastery with Geddon Perfect Ele Amulet and Ring and 3x Facets.

I'd be fine with a +15-16/-15-16 top end either one of those numbers works for me. It would give incentive to possibly craft something better than top end Uniques.

Zons are getting 58-65%.

I haven't seen anything top end besides those so I really can't tell you more.

Sins can easily hit 150% pierce but as far as mastery % goes 62% is the highest without Ort's in Claw

Cold Druids about the same as my Druid I'd assume.

Also on my Druid I'm at at least +26 Druid skills +39 FireStorm and +34 Geddon. I'm missng +3 Druid total from my gear and 20% mastery.

I haven't seen an end game poison necro though I'd assume it wouldn't be more than 58%-60 on them either.

Let me know what else I'm forgetting I'm sure there is some build.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:16 pm 

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OK here's the fact of the matter regarding crafting. I'm going to keep it simple as I reiterated previously. This point alone should suffice in taking crafts back to what they use to be. I don't care to do math to prove my point because Blue once talked about Math and now I refuse to sit here and do a math battle because sheer logical reasoning is all that is needed to see the problem here. Blue talked about math a lot but had no real core understanding of the game.. which is why he isn't here anymore. My word of advice: Don't rely on math alone to conjure your way around here. It will not work. Gameplay experience/understanding in combination with a little math goes a long way.

Crafting Verse Unique:

We all the simple difference, right? Crafting requires gold and gems.

Uniques are achievable through drops and bosses.

Simple, right?

Previously this is how it worked:

Crafts were 10-20/10-20

It variable based meaning it requires extensive crafting to actually truly hit a 20/20 and sometimes some luck.

For one individual it could take 5 to hit 20/20 for another it could take 20 to hit 20/20.

It was still VARIABLE and LUCK based. Getting 20/20 with life/res etc. is still a HIGHLY rewarding/rare thing.


Crafting has a MUCH higher variable on it's mods than does a Unique.

I.E. - Even facets @ 3/3 - 6/6 have a much higher chance of being perfect VERSE crafting 10/20 - 10/20

The variables were HIGH and it's two mods that they are high on.

That was the point/is of crafting. To achieve a better item than any unique by spending gems/gold. It's similar to 'Gambling' but just in another form.

By taking away the extensive variables and the power of crafts you hurt crafting in general. It makes people less inclined to spend their time on gold/gems to craft in the first place which is why we saw the huge drop in crafting this ladder.

So when you compare a END game unique to a CRAFT you need to keep these points in mind.

The variables now are easily hit and require very little crafts. 8/12 8/12? With such low variables what's the point?

Remember the point of crafting... that was the purpose of this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:08 pm 
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Another point that no one has mentioned is level requirements. Doesn't matter which, 12/12 or 20/20 crafts can be used at level 70. Most of the items being talked about(cept for arachnids) are level 90+ items. Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't level 90/90+ items supposed to be better/stronger than lvl 70 items?

I say make a new crafting tier. 20/20 crafts = uber gem + adamant armour(since this is already pretty much in a league of its own) + jewel + hammer. This way someone really will have to work to get that awesome 20/20 + str + res + life craft, and can't use it at lvl 70. Also the vita whoring caster builds would have to get 152 str to use the adamant armours.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:02 pm 
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I haven't actually gotten around to the number crunching yet due to class, but I'll atleast say this much before I go out for my run... While lvl reqs are definately a consideration there's one further thing that needs to be considered as well. Some of these craft slots actually get some pretty notable rare affixes to go with the automods. Also it should be noted that these rare affixes control the lvl req of crafts sometimes (notably since the lvl req of the highest affix +22 becomes the lvl req of the craft if the base item lvl req isn't higher).


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Any way to attach a +15 Level Req on Ele crafts for MS? 10 for ss 5 for perf?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:50 pm 
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yeh, if there is space for the levelreq mod. They are still easy to make though. If anything, I'd bump them back to old values but change the recipe to ss, ms and uber + tag a level req penalty on them. If you want them to compete with the 90-95 items.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:50 pm 
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One potentially serious issue with attaching lvl req penalties via craft automods... This sort of lvl req penalty will apply to either the socketable or the craft which ever is the higher level req. If a lvl req penalty of 15 was attached via the craft automods it would be impossible to use uber gems in crafts since 88+15 = lvl 103 (thus unequippable). Also this same automod based lvl req penalty would stack on top of the already hard coded lvl req penalty making crafts that normally require 90+ to require 105+ (thus unequippable).


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:42 pm 
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I'm ok with a 16/16 top end for the crafts maybe a progression of 5/7/9 for autolevel penalty would be more suitable for it then.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Items won't spawn with higher lvl req that available.

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If you want them to compete with the 90-95 items.
Won't. Rare mods are lacking, choosing crafts over uniqs works only in few situation (hint, cuz 20/20 was too much)


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:45 pm 

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Fury made a good point actually forgot about the Lvl req on crafts. Turning back the old value and upping the gem requirement to Uber = definitely much more balanced. How many people got enough Ubers to hit 20/20s easily?? GL with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:42 pm 
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Personally I doubt re-introducing +20/-20 at all even with uber gem cost will be a good idea. OP gear will always be OP gear regardless of how hard it is to get. Even a near perfect roll (which will be 4x as likely to get as perfect by allowing either 19's or 20's) would still totally stomp the competing uniques. Nothing's going to change the fact it's probably only going to take a relatively few attempts to make something good enough to actually beat any of the uniques even if it isn't a perfect roll.

Also concerning tacking on item mod lvl req penalties... I did some scrounging through the suffix txt files. It turns out there's a fair number of suffixes that actually require over (and sometimes well over) lvl 70 to equip base. The hard coded crafting lvl req penalty imposes a 13 lvl req penalty for a craft with 1 affix and a 22 lvl req penalty for a craft with 4 affixes. The hard coded penalty also has a safety built in to cap things to lvl 98 req in case of the stuff that would otherwise end up with a lvl 106 lvl req. Having anything more than a 3 lvl item mod based lvl req penalty from craft automods is actually going to create a risk of unequippable crafts.

To be honest I honestly think we'd be better off overhauling the affix tables for qlvl and lvl req wise so the nicer mods when they happen to spawn on a craft make the craft result in lvl 90-95 (but when on a normal rare they'd be otherwise lvl req 68-73).


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:34 pm 

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I understand increasing the Level of the craft but what is going to be the actual craft changes in comparison to what it is now? What I mean is 20/20 to 12/12 and now to what?

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:19 am 
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Quote:
I know my Druid get's 86% Mastery with Geddon Perfect Ele Amulet and Ring and 3x Facets.

Also on my Druid I'm at at least +26 Druid skills +39 FireStorm and +34 Geddon. I'm missng +3 Druid total from my gear and 20% mastery.


To make this comparison particularly relevant to your druid, lockdown, I'll actually be using the numbers of your druid provided earlier directly for this example. Since griff's provides 3 all skills for the sake of this comparison example I'll work from +36 firestorm and +31 geddon.

Craft circlets could provide +3 skill tabs. Hell Gheed also happens to sell elite blue druid only helms which could roll +3 skill tab as well as getting random +individual skills (which potencially means +3 geddon as well on the craft).

% damage boost geddon gets going from lvl 51 to 54: 8.44% impact boost, 8.35% burn boost
% damage boost firestorm gets going from lvl 56 to 59: 8.26% boost

Admittedly this flies in the face of the notion a +skill gives 10% boost per level but that notion only really comes close when skill soft levels are under soft lvl 35.

Presuming a perfect fire griff's what part of your 86% that would mean you would have 72% otherwise. I'll be using the formula [mastery % after equip+100]/[mastery % before equip+100] to determine the % boost to overall damage from % mastery alone when equipping the item.

perfect fire griff mastery boost: 8.14%
perfect ele helm mastery boost: 6.98%

I did a skim of monster hell resists before starting up this huge calc post. In the case a trash/boss's resists weren't 0 their non-physical/magic resists were pretty much almost always 50+. Assuming 50 resist on the monster will probably make a fair balance point between the trash that happen to have 0 resists for that particular element and bosses/broken immunities that are surely 88+. Formula I'll be using to determine the damage boost from pierce assuming 50 enemy resist will be (pierce % after equip + 50)/(pierce % before equip + 50).

You didn't mention a pierce amount for your druid in this thread so I'll work off the 104 value mentioned in the SS thread. Griff's doesn't have non-magical pierce so nothing to alter.

perfect pierce ele helm boost %: 7.79%

Ok... to summarize things for a 12/12 craft vs griff's without any good affixes on the craft:

griff's skill boost: 8.26-8.44%
griff's mastery boost: 8.14%
griff's overall boost: 17.1-17.3%

craft mastery boost: 6.98%
craft pierce boost: 7.79%
craft perfect automod boost: 15.3%

On a side note... if the craft happened to roll +3 druid ele tab it would be a 20.6% overall boost against a 50 fire resist enemy even with the worst possible +/- automod roll which more solidly beats griff's than griff's beats ele crafts without any skill affixes.

--Double Post--
One thing that should be noted is that the druid only helms gheed sells are more likely to spawn druid related +skills than circlets. So if you were to craft a helm for your druid druid helm crafts would probably be the best shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:29 am 

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Griffons is 40% more life.

+3 all skills 15%oak/15% lycan and 10% automod.

Griff is guranteed FCR and ALL res as well which is needed for a FireDruid.

How many Godly fire helm crafts will beat a griff? Wait how many people are capable of even crafting a godly enough one to beat out a griff? I'm just curious to know if anyone has done it even last ladder.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:52 am 
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I tried last ladder to craft a 2 Druid 20/20 Fire with geddon or firestorm couldn't do it. I must have tried over 200 or so pelts.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:00 am 
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Even a 9/9 2 druid skills helm craft would actually edge out a griff's damage wise against a 50 fire resist enemy. Circlets happen to be capable of 30 resist all. The craft is getting one more socket than the griff's as well. Question is how far above that 9/9 before things would teeter despite the the other mods the griff has?


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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:02 am 

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Exactly.. my point being of logical reasoning. Looking at sheer numbers accomplishes nothing here because it's more than numbers.

It's about the fact that crafting is difficult and time consuming while the possibilities of powerful items exist.. godly crafts are probably more rare than 95s. Godly being the ones that actually beat out higher lvl items.

I don't know how many times I have to keep stressing the same point over and over... similar to melee eh?

UNDERSTAND:

Fundamental point.. godly crafts are RARE. They require A TON of farming, A TON of luck and A LOT of time.

Why shouldn't that be rewarded? Because the reward was reduced people are not going to waste their time crafting... period. You can't spin it any way other or sugar coat it.

Increasing the cost of crafting would be more ideal with old values but it would just make actually getting godly crafts much harder.

That's what made crafting great. A POSSIBILITY of a high reward but not a GUARANTEE. That's why LockDown spent 200 gems + gold to do so.

How many gems have you spent this ladder LD? Crafting was an important facet of the game and nerfing it has resulted in less crafting, PERIOD. Can't spin that one either.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:34 pm 
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This ladder I've been trying to roll a Caster Set of Antlers for a wind druid been failing so far on that as well <_<

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:05 pm 
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LockDown wrote:
This ladder I've been trying to roll a Caster Set of Antlers for a wind druid been failing so far on that as well <_<


i rolled about 40 trillion ss amesyth pelts last ladder for my windy. Best I got was +1 ele / +3 nado, other mods were garbage. GOOD LUCK!

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:16 pm 
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I've gotten a few 1 all 2 druid. no nado though :(

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:12 am 
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:| at people completely ignoring the chance to offer their own balance opinions for what numbers would be needed (referring to the question I posed in my last post). It's almost as though you people want to argue more than to actually work something out.

Anyways I did some more calculations. If the automod was +14/-14 it would edge out griff's for damage per hit single handedly for a fire druid against a 50 fire resist monster. Although lee suggested to bring back 12-20/12-20 I personally can not see this being balanced even with an uber gem cost. We're talking a 60% chance the automod alone outguns a griff's. A 1 in 20 chance that the automod is about twice the offensive boost of a griff's.

Craft circlets can spawn with the following sort of affixes that are nice: +32 dex, +3 skill tab, +2 class skills, +160 life, 30 resist all, 20% FCR. Admittedly it would be impossible for them all to be there but surely even a couple of them would make nice boosts along with the extra socket compared to griff's.

Personally I'm at the moment leaning towards a 11-15 range for the fire circlets. This would give a 1 in 6 chance for the automod alone to outgun griff's. Combined with the gold carrying limit being upped for an indirect buff to crafting by potencially allowing crafts to be cranked out faster it should make crafts more tempting. 2 profession skills tacked on to that would result in about 1.5x the offensive power along with of course the resulting defensive boosts from the +skills. The chance of a 2 class skills roll outgunning griff's offensively would be ~65% if not higher.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:32 pm 
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If you want to compare it to end game go with Lore not Griffs for Fire Druids. Griffs adds more damage but the +skills and pierce Lore gives are more valuable to a Fire Druid.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:40 pm 

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Honestly wasn't trying to argue. I was just trying to stress the point that not many people are actually achieving top tier crafts. It takes luck. It's like trying to run flayer jungle 100x to find a zod but never actually finding one one ladder and next the first time you make it to a3 you find it. There is nothing guaranteed in crafting that you will actually achieve that item. The fact that there was capability of achieving such a powerful item through crafting is what made it unique and widely used by many people.

It's like playing the lottery. Here's an analogy.. that you can use when you're thinking of adjusting crafting or trying to argue amongst the balance on it.

If the lottery had a dramatic reduction in what was achievable if you win then it's only natural to assume less people are going to actually play.

Wtf is the point of wasting 200+ gems on crafting if what you can achieve is going to end up not so great.. or maybe a little better then a griffons? Does that make much sense?

Think about it. Who the hell is going to waste time crafting without the chance of HIGH reward?

This is ALL simple logical reasoning. That's what needs to be understood, PERIOD.

If you fail to understand this point then here is the ultimate fact.

LESS people will craft and CRAFTING as the unique enjoyable thing it use to be will no longer yield the same enjoyability. Crafting was a big part of the game ( still is ).

That's why I never understood why nerfing the power of crafts was needed because decreasing the chance or increasing the cost of crafting while keeping the same margin of power makes more sense.

Final point:

Crafting plays a significant role in HU. It's something that can be continued even AFTER every 95 item or ever unique in the game is found. That is how UNIQUE crafting is.

I don't see anyone else complaining about any of the mods on other crafts. How a +30 stre ring with +300 life +1 skill is possible on a ring? Or how caster boots with 20stre and even dex are possible? Just two small examples... should the list go on? I don't know of any unique boots in the game nor any uniq ring that can match the above listed. Do you? Not even close.

I'm just stating what I feel is logical/makes sense... take it how you want to.

666 post FTW muhahahahhaha :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:06 am 

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Oh noes, not every 0815 craft beats ravenlore. What a scandal!
Gosh, are you trying to whine again until u get what u want, ruining it again for everyone else? U did well on meleechars. ^.^ Topazcrafts are viable options on several slots for different builds, and only because they can not beat one particular lvl95 Unique for one build, it doesnt mean they are broken...
If Drus now complain that their RLore is too bad.... well... i guess u have some serious issues then.
But any coldzon/pala/dru will like some decent 12/12 craft gloves. Ofc not any roll, but as soon as raremods fit, they can edge out pretty much everything thats available form uniques. And it doesnt take many rolls to get smth here.
Immozons sadly cant equip RLore. And again, a decent 12/12 diadem can beat Griffs, which is itself one of the most ridiculous items in the game (It is just so vital for almost every elemental skillbuild... well except firedrus, but they complain no matter what they get)
If any lightchar just goes for pure dmg, then again lightcraftboots are actually still the best. Just that in this case, the typical lightchars (TKsoso and lightsin) need more mana, so they can beat it with Castercrafts. Again the Uniques are trash compared to what crafts offer...
WTF is ur problem? Ah maybe the psnbelts. Yeah, well, we really need more poisondmg, i totally agree.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:58 am 
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Posts like those really help.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Elchicken's attitude on the situation was actually quite refreshing. Also in any case I do not think it would be fair at all to compare the 95 class specific uniques to everything else since their stats are a different league entirely from everything else. Attempting to make crafts that could even hope to seriously compete with that is just asking for trouble.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:52 pm 
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I don't want something better than Lore. I've stated like 3 times 15/15-16/16 is what I'm aiming for and it's not fire helms I'm even trying to argue about. But fuck it I'm done trying to even reason with anyone on the forums it seems I get more accomplished if I just troll.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:02 pm 
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LockDown wrote:
But fuck it I'm done trying to even reason with anyone on the forums it seems I get more accomplished if I just troll.


Amen brother!

Ze dictatorship hast simply changed hands ya?
Let us crunch ze numbers
:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:45 pm 

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But what for is a 16/16 buff needed, if even with 12/12 maximum the crafts are still the best option for enough builds on several slots? Topazcrafts are still used in the way they are in this patch. In some cases as items to fill up gaps until better options are available, in some cases as endgameitems. Unlike many other things that are craftable which aren't used at all.

Another thing that is tricky about crafts is their lvlreq. Sadly it doesnt scale with the craftmods they get but only with the raremods. So it is possible to get topunique beating crafts with lvlreqs around 70-80, while you would have to wait for your uniques much longer.
I would really oppose a change to Topazcrafts the way they are, but if there is really a need for higher values, then i think the idea someone threw in here, to create a new craftlevel of Ubercrafts would be a possible way. This way it could be made sure, no <lvl90/95 carries those items. If now the spreadrange of those values is wide enough this would be an extremely expensive but also potentially extremely rewarding tool for ppl who like to twink their char to the optimum.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:39 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Let us crunch ze numbers



Sig'd because of how hard I lol'd

WHAT builds are ele crafts still the best for? The only one I can even think of is Immozon helms and that's if you roll a 3 12/12

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:56 pm 

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LockDown wrote:
WHAT builds are ele crafts still the best for? The only one I can even think of is Immozon helms and that's if you roll a 3 12/12
+1
While I do agree ele crafts are a bit weak compared to last patch, they were a bit too strong. 15/16 is about the upper limit as to not so severely outclass uniques of lvl90+. The idea of being able to craft a 20/-20 item and equip at lvl 70ish was obscenely op'd as most used them endgame over those lvl 95 uniques.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:00 pm 

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LockDown wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Let us crunch ze numbers



Sig'd because of how hard I lol'd

WHAT builds are ele crafts still the best for? The only one I can even think of is Immozon helms and that's if you roll a 3 12/12


You could read "helpful posts" to answer your question. Looks like you didnt manage to do that.

But just for you, lets do it again:
Gloves: What are the alternatives for coldchars? Ah, eledrus have their own supergloves (why did eledrus get a special unqiue for every slot btw?)
For every othe coldchar(Frostbiter, Coldsorc, Coldzon, Coldpala) the only unique alternative would be prolly drainer. Yay. Easy win for Topazcrafts.
Boots:
Again, there are no uniques that are somehow interesting. Tk-Sorcs prefer Castercrafts, which feels okay, there is no reason, why it always have to be topazcrafts that have to be the best crafts... For Lightsins it seems a tossup, but well, looks like lately they also decided they need the mana more then the dmg. Javazons or Shockpala, if they would be played, would have a pretty easy choice with crafts. Well, unique boots just suck for them.
Helms:
Druids as usual have their own shit, the rest has the choice between Griffs (which i would like to see nerfed more, since it ruins the variety completly) and some lucky firecraft. It takes luck and time to beat a griff, but its possible. Doesnt matter if trapper, immozon, firesorc or whatever.. If you get the +3 in your tree, with some decent other raremods you are fine.


Counterquestion: Which Uniques can easily beat a good craft? RLore for Firedrus, Mothernature for Coldelementaldrus.
Especially for the builds that are a little bit more unique then Pzons and Firedrus Topazcrafts are good.
And i like itemvariety and choices. Guess not everyone does. If Topazcrafts would clearly outedge all other choices, it wouldn't be a choice anymore... Right now it's close, sometimes other stuff wins, sometimes the crafts win.
And well, ppl still pay 3 saphs and endless skulls for a topaz. Looks like there are things that need more adjustments.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:39 pm 
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I purposely ignored that post because of how you opened it, because you ignored everything I've been saying. Ok I can see the HFZealer but I used Rends 90% of the time. If you're going from a damage perspective +2 Skills is gonna beat 12/12 gloves especially on a cold sorc Fathom gives stupid pierce no fire sorc is ever going to use an ele craft with the great stats Griffs adds. Sins if you really feel you need 12 extra pierce after 112 from claws then IDK, the extra mana helps so you aren't drinking 90000 mana potions. 1/3 Trap boots may be just as good as 12 Light 3 Trap boots.

I'm pretty sure by helping the crafts I'm trying to help item variety if you don't see it that way then you may have a comprehension problem. As I've said though I'm done but apparently I'm not the only one who feels crafts are lackluster as is evident by this thread.

Poison Belts (Arach)
Cold Gloves (HFZealers MAYBE.)
Lightning Boots (Caster Crafts)
Fire Helms (Immozons are the only one I'll give this too even though Dragon Skull is close)
Magic Shields ( The Biggest Joke )

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:45 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
LockDown wrote:
But fuck it I'm done trying to even reason with anyone on the forums it seems I get more accomplished if I just troll.


Amen brother!

Ze dictatorship hast simply changed hands ya?
Let us crunch ze numbers
:lol:


LMFAO that was funny.

What dictatorship? If Baerk thinks he's going to be Blue #2 and actually last around here then he needs to do a lot more thinking.

I remember Blue talking about math. That was the only thing he actually talked about. He always stated how he just "wants numbers."

I completely ignored ElChicken... those kinds of people/posts do nothing as LD stated.

I remember Blue also had a few people with no names who'd agree with him or support his ideas.

I'm already starting to see very similar characteristics in Baerk of Blue. Sad to say Baerk.. start changing your attitude or you won't be here much longer either.

You started off great. Guess a little Moderator upgrade boosted your ego eh?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:13 pm 
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I struggle to see what mods you guys are hitting on a Diadem to beat out a Griffons btw you make it seem like it happens on every roll and I can tell you you'll be wasting 50-100 MS Topaz trying before you hit something half decent to beat out Griffons.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:07 pm 

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@lockdown If you reduce the game to only 10 possible builds you might be right ;)
But i think, builds like Frostzon, Frostbiter, Shockpala, Novasorc, Lightzon etc exist as well. And not every elementalchar will need his Elemental craft, but there are builds where they are indeed viable. For firechars it is indeed a huge task to beat griffs. But well, as i stated earlier, i don't like the design of griff, which is basically needed for every nonphys/magic build anyway.
Also you ignored the part about the levelreq and possible Ubergem-crafts. If you want a raise of the maximumvalues, how you intend to keep those items, that are supposed to beat lvl 85-92 uniques out of level70? The more i think about the numbers the less i like the idea of raising them, but well, if you really want... at least keep them out of nightmare games... Last season was... not funny.

And +2 skills beats 12/12 for coldsorcs? If you attack a normal monster, probably yes. Against almost any hellboss, no. +2 skills has 2% less colddmg from mastery, and if you assume about 120% pierce from remaining equip and monsterresist of 90% (that's LOS-Bosses, actbosses have even more) then 12% more pierce are about 9% more dmg. While +2 blizzard at lvl40+ equals about 7%. ;)

This might be a close difference, but if you imagine 16/16 being possible, then you dont need any raremods anymore to make the craft already better then the drainer. As it is now, it depends if your raremods fit or not. It's not a nobrainer.

@lee i'm sure your elitism will help your point :) I might not agree with LD, but well, at least he is able to defend his opinion ;) But well, i wont disturb your revolutionary speeches anymore, you must feel very important ^^


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:15 am 
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Holy shit storm batman!!

Just something that keeps being brought up about 12/12 being better than +2 on gloves, or +3 skill tab %ed damage being better than +3 all n shit. The problem with that is you are ONLY looking at your listed damage numbers. What about the 2-3 +all skills that added to your cta bo? Same skills also add to your hork when you use glorycrest. Along with your prayer if you use Immortalflesh. The extra +to all skills adds to your summons tab if you're a druid/sin/zon/necro.

I find it funny that the people saying the crafts are oh so OP are the same people that either haven't made it to hell to even attempt to make a gg craft( BTW Ive been rolling my sorc helm for 2 weeks...no luck, but Ive found like 5 griffons in the mean time) or are the people that every time they leave town...they die, need help, or get there poison java to do the shit for em.

When we all start thinking about the character as a whole, and not just their listed damage(ignoring defense/life/resists/+to all skills,summons,revives) we will have a better understanding of item balance.

For the record, if I spend the time to farm 16 wirts jewels to make buying gems cheaper, then spend 3 weeks farming leo for gold to roll a crafted helm and facets to socket it with, I better have a fucking helm better than a random ass griffons. Anyone thats been in a5 hell for longer than a week knows those things drop like candy in tundra and areas beyond.

The people crying about the possibility of getting that GG craft after WEEKS of trying are the people that will NEVER spend that time doing it and are either jealous or butt hurt they didnt have that gg item drop every other tundra run like a griffons.

/rage mode deactivated

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:27 am 
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That's the problem I don't think like a softcore kid. Just so people have a general idea 6 wirts takes about 3ish hours if you get lucky with the drops and have hork.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:23 am 

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Great post by Jay.

I don't know what else to say at this point. I think Baerk is missing the huge picture here and he is only looking at a portion of it.

In Baerks eyes as he has repeated. Anything "OP is OP." Yet I don't see him posting any major crafting rehauls for every other craft capable of Opness as I've mentioned a few earlier.

Clearly when you lack the fundamental understanding of crafting or don't have the actual in game experience or have ever even achieved a notable craft worth mentioning then you should be listening to the other veterans here FuryCury, myself, Lockdown and I'm sure there are many more who would agree.

Even Zac/Abominae stated a top of the line craft should be superior to a unique.

Instead of actually posting logical information that would contradict what we are stating or defer the main point in the information we keep repeating you keep insisting on numbers Baerk.

So who's going to listen to you? No one cares about your numbers.

I've yet to see a logically reasoning reply that would defer information I have stated and I hardly doubt you'll reply to FuryCury either.

Do you even have the crafting experience to actually disagree with us here? How many crafts have you done on HU? Whens the last godly craft you've managed Baerk? That's why you NEED to listen.

If you actually had experience or a reasonable deferring argument maybe I could be able to reason it out here but you have neither.

It's time to start listening and heeding opinions from the better/more experienced players.

Again I'm just trying to help you out. I don't think you will last long in Blue's shoes at the rate you're going judging by your skewed logical assertion of crafting which is baseless due to your nonexistent experience actually crafting here and unwillingness to argue those opposing what you say.

If you don't understand the simple fundamental basis behind crafting then you will never understand us. You don't have the experience in crafting and that's why you feel the way you do. We HAVE that experience which is WHY you NEED<< to listen.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:50 am 
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FuryCury wrote:


I find it funny that the people saying the crafts are oh so OP are the same people that either haven't made it to hell to even attempt to make a gg craft( BTW Ive been rolling my sorc helm for 2 weeks...no luck, but Ive found like 5 griffons in the mean time) or are the people that every time they leave town...they die, need help, or get there poison java to do the shit for em.



This,

Amen brother!

I dont want people who dont actually have the ingame experience from this reset tell me whats best or whats not. When we are a lot of guys spending many hours daily trying to get the shitcrafts, and always end up with something we could have gotten on a normal baal run or worse..


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Again I'm just trying to help you out. I don't think you will last long in Blue's shoes at the rate you're going judging by your skewed logical assertion of crafting which is baseless due to your nonexistent experience actually crafting here and unwillingness to argue those opposing what you say

You guys crack me up. Why should Baerk give a shit if you want him modding or not? The power's the other way around, Baerk is the one doing YOU a favor by doing the work - not the other way around. If he ever comes to the realization that this community is a pile o' crap and not worth spending the effort on, you folks are going to be left with nobody doing all the hard work for you.
Lee wrote:
WHY you NEED<< to listen.

I'd say you should change the tone and realize it needs to be the other way around. If Baerk walks, you are the one that loses, not him. I can tell you this straight up because I am happy as a clam with this community in my rear view mirror.

As a side note though, Crafts are without a doubt the top of the food chain items for the most part and should be balanced accordingly.

*edit*
Furycury post = the win. He knows his shit

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:42 pm 

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Really Blue? I guess you forget the reality that HU is in it's last days.. yes I said last days because soon as D3 comes out this forum will be half of what it is now or probably even less and I assume there will still be someone modding but HU won't have the vitality it has now and that's a fact even Mancer acknowledges.

So it doesn't really matter in the end... does it? But even if Baerk decides to walk.. there is always someone who is willing to do a little work. It's not really one mans Mod anymore anyway. Mancer gave it to the community.

Hence... last patch was a COMMUNITY built patch. There wasn't one sole individual responsible for modding the patch, however, Pious did oversee the patch and made a lot of changes/directed it... even he wasn't perfect but he did one hell of a job and he made sure it was a community built patch.

Baerk won't accomplish anything without veteran support.. so he has to learn to work with the community and not against it. His attitude started off originally as a very nice guy/easy to work and now he's off to his own ideas in his la la land just as you were. How can you not see the resemblance? The little number game wasn't originated by Baerk. YOU started that Blue.

In the end.. D2 in it's last days so it's all irrelevant even if Baerk does walk.. I'd be surprised if someone wouldn't be willing to put up a patch considering a lot of people here have the capability of doing so and I'm sure Kevin would support it a little as he has his own mod etc.

You just can't do whatever the fuck you want without some justification. You don't get far.

I honestly had no problem with Baerk until I see his unwillingness to listen to the people who know far more than he does about this game and start baseless arguments based on numbers which are irrelevant because of reasons already expressed.

Here is the final thing I'm going to say. Life lesson from Lee.

In life we all have freedom of choice. We have the freedom to do whatever the fuck we want. That means we choose to believe in what we want but when it comes to our beliefs/opinions if we can't support them with according evidence that appeals to a reasonable mind then we can't expect others to agree or support our opinions. With that being said.. in any event that you want your opinion/beliefs to be supported by other individuals then you have to convince them. You have to erase reasonable doubt in order to win them over. It all sounds so simple, right? So what's the problem here? Why do people like Baerk/Blue refuse to admit they are profoundly wrong in situations like this. Here's why.

Anytime you hold a position of power you are more reluctant to be overruled by arrogance when it comes to your ideas/beliefs. That means anytime someone challenges your ideas then arrogance/pride can over rule your reasonable thinking forcing to you to refuse to accept reality and therefor continue arguing or avoid the discussion.

It's the individual who admits he's wrong, accepts criticism accordingly and makes the proper adjustments who excels as a leader. If you can't beat your pride/arrogance then it will beat you. Baerk won't last long as it stands currently unless he adjusts his attitude.

If you can't handle the heat then gtfo out of the kitchen. Don't take on a position that's too much for you. Simple as that.Take criticism like a fucking man and do the right thing. Or let the community do their thing like last patch.

We don't need huge patches anymore.. d2 is ending soon. We can live with a few adjustments here and there. I don't think anyone wants a full fledged new patch with tons of new shit.. this may be in fact the last highly active reset we see.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:59 pm 
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To be fair, this patch was a combined effort of a number of people who I'm sure are still willing to make adjustments. Just because baerk passes it off as all his own work, don't make it true.

He may have been happy to declare himself ruler and overlord of what is allowed to be changed, but a self procalimed title means nothing.

Theres nothing stopping a group of people simply making a counter patch (like last time) if the majority are unhappy.

One final point. It's not a good idea for the balancing to be done solely by somene who has very little experience as far as this mod is concerned. You can know all the theory in the world and stull not be able to put it into practice.

In motor racing, the mechanic listens to the driver, Not the other way around. Why should this be any different?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:15 pm 
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For those who don't want to bother reading, here's the summary:

So what - Baerk doesn't have to kiss your ass. This nonsense that it is some "privilege" to do the bidding of arrogant ass-hats is utter nonsense

Lee wrote:
Really Blue? I guess you forget the reality that HU is in it's last days.. yes I said last days because soon as D3 comes out this forum will be half of what it is now or probably even less and I assume there will still be someone modding but HU won't have the vitality it has now and that's a fact even Mancer acknowledges.

So what. Makes it even more irrelevant what you happen to think of Baerk. Simply reinforces what I am saying.

Lee wrote:
.. there is always someone who is willing to do a little work.

So lazy putzes like you don't have to? Wake up man, when someone WILLINGLY does work for you, don't treat them like a piece of shit, or you may find yourself alone with a bunch of other egotistical buttwipes who all point fingers at each other wanting everyone else to do work.

Lee wrote:
Hence... last patch was a COMMUNITY built patch. There wasn't one sole individual responsible for modding the patch, however, Pious did oversee the patch and made a lot of changes/directed it... even he wasn't perfect but he did one hell of a job and he made sure it was a community built patch.

No Baerk - no patch last time around. Read that carefully and let it sink in. The rest of this community doesn't have the stones to take it from start to finish.

Lee wrote:
I honestly had no problem with Baerk until I see his unwillingness to listen to the people who know far more than he does about this game and start baseless arguments based on numbers which are irrelevant because of reasons already expressed.


What you meant to say was:
I honestly had no problem with Baerk until he stopped doing what I told him to do.

You all just want a monkey who obeys what you tell him to do. Good luck with that. People who have the passion and drive necessary to actually do something aren't brainless automatons who will follow your every direction.



Idiot wrote:
Here is the final thing I'm going to say. Life lesson from Lee.

That's some funny crap you have there. Maybe if you weren't such a flunky, you would have some actual understanding of how life works.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Good to see Blue is still pretty butthurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Good to see Blue is still pretty butthurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:40 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
Good to see Blue is still pretty butthurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:42 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
Good to see Blue is still pretty butthurt.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:45 pm 

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Imperial wrote:
Abominae wrote:
Good to see Blue is still pretty butthurt.


why couldnt you have quoted each other when the next one wrote? we could have made a quote train! :P

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Quote:
No Baerk - no patch last time around. Read that carefully and let it sink in. The rest of this community doesn't have the stones to take it from start to finish.


really? What exactly did baerk contribute that nobody else could have? What exactly did he do that nobody else could or would have done? Besides adjusting some boss resistances. He didn't take it from start to finish either, he jumped on the band waggon mid way then proceeded to take all the credit... It's actually pretty shocking.

Incase you forgot, let me break it down point by point.

1: you hadn't kept anyone in the loop and seemed to have quit so pious asked me to create a base patch (for fear of no patch at all)

2: I created a base including new optional content (that has been asked for for how long now?) and posted it for the community to improve

3: 5-6 community members responded by digging into the item work, and making further adjustments while working together to find a decent middle ground (and it was done pretty well in my opinion as this patch was a nice improvement on the last)

4: Soulmancer expressed intrest in high res for HU, so I created a topic in the home made modifications forum and KI4M and STEEL responded by adjusting all monster AI's to fit and creating a completely new UI for the mod.

5: Baerk adjusted some boss resistances and skill levels, ruined a couple of skills like feral rage. Reverted the plague jav nerf, doubled venoms damage (already the highest dps pois in the game) by giving it a self synergy to make assassins venom stronger, while forgetting to remove the charges of venom that synergise it on arachnids mesh.

6: aerk branded it "His" patch in his arrogance.

Don't assume that nobody will step up to the plate again. There are only a few people who know how to go about making changes so saying "You didn't do anything to help" to a single person is just stupid. You can't expect everyone here to know how to mod.

The same people involved last time will most likely be happy to do the same again, while geting no thanks and having someone else pass off the patch as their own work without complaint.

Good people, with a lot of patience. I for one, salute them.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:24 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Good to see Blue is still pretty butthurt.


I was gonna quote this and leave it but I'm angry I have no reason to be angry but I'm angry.

I don't fully comprehend why you're still here Blue you said you were done with us so be done. I mean you obviously have no game knowledge I've seen your Barb it makes me sad for Barbarians everywhere.

Baerk I don't know why you're so caught up on stupid numbers that mean nothing. Fire Druids did 10x the amount of damage last ladder and only 1-2 on softcore were worth a damn in any situation because none of them maxed oak and would last 1-2 seconds outside of trash.

Fuckity fuck fuck fuck fuck.

Never mind ignore me I don't know dick about shit. I'm sure Zach Pious Kevin Paul Kramuti Baerk k4im and myself (remind me if I forgot anyone) wouldn't do anything ever again for this mod :roll: I'm sure we are incapable of seeing anything through and are all shit at everything. Even if we lose Baerk I'm sure we still have a capable team but apparently I'm wrong we're all people who aren't capable of wiping our own ass never mind doing things on the computer. I shudder to think of how complicated it must be to do something of that magnitude.

Forgive me for questioning you Overlord Blue how may I be of service to you today?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:59 pm 
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I believe I must be behind on my forum shitstorms... Exactly where/when did Baerk start claiming this patch was his and his alone?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Baerk wrote:
My test patch

Baerk wrote:
Have you tried my test patch yet? There are buffs to wolf summons in it.

Baerk wrote:
this is one change I can not allow to pass.

Baerk wrote:
It's a good thing I included that compatible glide driver

Included this last one to show taking credit for someone elses initiative

Implying that his word is law and the patch was of his making. I pick up on shit like that more these days after having a lot of my own work ripped off on some other sites.

It's little subtle things like that that lead to things like him getting the credit and everyone else being confined to "the others" when "the others" done the majority of the work:
Quote:
Just wanna give a big thanks to Baerk and all the others that have worked with the patch.

I just specially wanna point out Baerk because of all the job he has done, and the job he is continue to do with helping people wich are having technical problems and shit all the time.
:|

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:41 pm 
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sullaid

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:43 pm 

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Wtf is sullaid?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:45 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
For those who don't want to bother reading, here's the summary:

So what - Baerk doesn't have to kiss your ass. This nonsense that it is some "privilege" to do the bidding of arrogant ass-hats is utter nonsense

Lee wrote:
Really Blue? I guess you forget the reality that HU is in it's last days.. yes I said last days because soon as D3 comes out this forum will be half of what it is now or probably even less and I assume there will still be someone modding but HU won't have the vitality it has now and that's a fact even Mancer acknowledges.

So what. Makes it even more irrelevant what you happen to think of Baerk. Simply reinforces what I am saying.

Lee wrote:
.. there is always someone who is willing to do a little work.

So lazy putzes like you don't have to? Wake up man, when someone WILLINGLY does work for you, don't treat them like a piece of shit, or you may find yourself alone with a bunch of other egotistical buttwipes who all point fingers at each other wanting everyone else to do work.

Lee wrote:
Hence... last patch was a COMMUNITY built patch. There wasn't one sole individual responsible for modding the patch, however, Pious did oversee the patch and made a lot of changes/directed it... even he wasn't perfect but he did one hell of a job and he made sure it was a community built patch.

No Baerk - no patch last time around. Read that carefully and let it sink in. The rest of this community doesn't have the stones to take it from start to finish.

Lee wrote:
I honestly had no problem with Baerk until I see his unwillingness to listen to the people who know far more than he does about this game and start baseless arguments based on numbers which are irrelevant because of reasons already expressed.


What you meant to say was:
I honestly had no problem with Baerk until he stopped doing what I told him to do.

You all just want a monkey who obeys what you tell him to do. Good luck with that. People who have the passion and drive necessary to actually do something aren't brainless automatons who will follow your every direction.



Idiot wrote:
Here is the final thing I'm going to say. Life lesson from Lee.

That's some funny crap you have there. Maybe if you weren't such a flunky, you would have some actual understanding of how life works.


Here's the part you fail to understand Blue.. so just because let's hypothesize and assume Baerk was the only individual who actually did do the work. So even if one person was running the show are you trying to say that just because they 'put in the work' that means they're allowed to do whatever they want? What point are you making because so far you sound diligently idiotic.

Any system set up like that always fails. It's called dictatorship. I guess you are quite reluctant to forget your time period here? You were over thrown by the community who got tired of your dictatorship.

It isn't about Baerk doing shit my way. It's not actually considered "my way." I simply expressed my opinion backed by facts and reasonable information. It was an opinion also shared by others and is not solely my thinking.

There is a simple concept that you JUST can't grasp. I don't know what the fuck it is but you refuse to grasp this concept IN ALL it's simplicity.

You CAN'T pass an idea without justifying it to the majority. If your unwilling to justify your idea then how the fuck can you expect to get support from people?

Basically all you've implied is that 'dictatorship' works and it doesn't. It never will. It never has. It always fails in the end unless the person is actually level headed.

At this point Baerk could not pass a patch through the community.

Don't know why I bothered actually posting and trying to reason with you Blue. You don't know what the word reasoning even means. I don't think if it were explained to you a million times you'd grasp it.

I really hate how you go about saying I want shit done my way.. it's really an ignorant thing to say. That just pissed me off because all I do is post my opinion on an issue and don't ask anyone to agree with it and I don't command that what I feel or say is to be done. That's the whole point of discussion.. to talk about it.. hear different opinions/ideas and DISCUSS. It's something you couldn't do Blue. Your communicative skills are horrible. You don't know how to work with people on any level. Your way too into yourself and your own ideas.

People have expressed similarly to what I have and the people who have ironically are all veterans with extensive experience crafting.

You know the irony of your WHOLE post Blue. You described yourself in entirety. Think about it.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:09 am 
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i'm with lock on this

id like to use arachs as comparison because before last ladder ended, i spent literally the last 2 months to make a 'perfect' belt for my poison zon (mostly to beat woa hahaha :P). unfortunately, i didn't take a screenshot of the belt i had but what i got was this (roughly):

+20/-20 psn dmg and pierce
fire res +25
cold res +27
psn res +31
+95 life
half freeze duration
+15 strength

i just think bringing it down to 12/12 is too much and would support if it was changed to 16/16.
i have also tried to beat griffs by crafting a godly ele pelt - no luck at all, i must have done at least 150 ms topaz craft last ladder - not even close to how many lock did if i remember correctly. it's as Lee and Fury said, the people who take time to craft should be rewarded - it's the principle of crafting, not that it outclasses uniques. why would i bother crafting the above belt with 12/12 when arachs will beat it?

i had put up some of my crafts, maybe someone can make clearer argument than me:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3957

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:46 am 
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Occupy Arimyth

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:54 am 
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Quote:
i just think bringing it down to 12/12 is too much and would support if it was changed to 16/16.
Yeah.

We just need a server side update. 12 is too low. It seemed a good way to start balancing ele chars and no one said it's too low before(when list of changed crafts was in Kramuti's thread).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:13 pm 
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I personally think that it is fine that people are starting from different viewpoints on the validity of higher end crafts vs the uniques. Things are not horridly out of whack from what I can see of the discussion.

The question that really came to fruition was how often should a craft outrank a 95 unique. Isn't that the real point of contention? On one end Baerk gave an approximation of the current probability, and what he thought was a reasonable change. Fury, Lee and Lockdown (maybe somebody else too) pointed out their experience of crafting a shitton to no real avail.

Somebody (i dont feel like looking to remember) has a middle ground experience with some builds. This view shouldn't just be shat on.

I personally don't mind the idea of an uber craft addition. It has always been aesthetically unpleasing to me that this has never been used in my time here. Acquiring uber gems takes time to get them in the quantity required to craft a ton.

As for 'mr tyrant baerk'. He has done a lot, people also asked for a moderator. Now you have one. I was asked and said I could only really do part time. I wouldn't have been able to respond to half the shit he has since the implementation of the patch. He may not be perfect, he may lean towards wanting to compare numbers, he isn't totally unreasonable. Having that at least as a reference point to compare versus players experience is pretty reasonable is it not? He has comprised on plenty things that I could name, but don't really care to drag back up.

A good number of people did a lot on this patch. Most of the response has been pretty good from what I have seen. I think that a compromise on this issue is possible, and I think that approximating probabilities for getting a craft of X quality vs finding Griffons or whatever has to be done. Either math or experience driven...right now folks are just figuring how these two methods compare.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:51 pm 

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"The question that really came to fruition was how often should a craft outrank a 95 unique. Isn't that the real point of contention? On one end Baerk gave an approximation of the current probability, and what he thought was a reasonable change. Fury, Lee and Lockdown (maybe somebody else too) pointed out their experience of crafting a shitton to no real avail. "

This is what is being misunderstood. People are looking at Baerks probability numbers and assuming It's that simple when it isn't.

You want to actually talk about useful meaningful numbers then don't talk about the chances of hitting 20/20 on a craft which is equivalent to 5% on each craft which means if your lucky you hit 20/20 in 20~ or so moonstone crafts.

Talk about the actual chances of hitting a 20/20 craft with res/stre/life or great mods then you're talking about REAL useful numbers here. If we were to actually break down and look at the possibility of it ( Don't know if it's even possible ) then we'd find a number FAR lower than 5% which means when you do actually hit a great craft It's LUCK.

200 moonstone gems Lockdown used. 200 that's a lot of fucking gems and NO RESULTS.

As Jay pointed out anything that doesn't grant + skill is a loss of BO and ANY other SKILL tab.

The fact is Baerk has never crafted here. He has not put the time in that is required to actually have a simple understanding of crafting and he's throwing around his number theology instead of just listening to the people who know more about crafting and have actually done it.

Look here is the realization we all know. It's never going to work. One man doing shit can't happen 95% of the time. If Pious was still around and running shit behind the scenes then maybe it could but after Pious stepped down and handed it to Baerk things started going awry.

Baerk may be moderator here but that doesn't mean he should be running the show and changing what he sees fit. Baerk has no where near the actual game play experience as Pious and Pious had no where near the modding understanding of Baerk but when you don't have the game play experience you need and you don't listen to the people who have it then nothing is accomplished. If Baerk was more willing to actually listen to the people who know more than he does then maybe he'd have an actual chance at running this but he is clouded with arrogance and it's obvious but for the people who don't see it I'll explain.

Kevins example was one.
The second was this.

In the bonespear thread I shot his idea of increasing spirit range down and he did not reply. I started that thread to make spirit better than spear and guess what? Nothing was accomplished because Baerk's idea made no sense at all in making spirit better than spear and got shot down and therefor he stopped participating in anything related to making Spirit better than spear. What was accomplished in that thread? Look through it if you don't believe me. That was arrogance on his part and a dickish thing to do because discussion was going relatively fine until I explained why his idea wouldn't accomplish anything.

In this thread he replied with numbers on crafting and no one bothered replying ( I intentionally did not reply to let him know how it feels. ) He then proceeded to call those individuals complainers/whiners etc. and so I made a real reply to show why he was wrong and he still did not reply back.
He threw out unnecessary insults and now that he got a real reply he's gone quiet. Very mature eh? Let me quote Baerk exactly word for word.

Baerk wrote:
The last time I attempted to start a rally for mass objective comparisons of elite crafts to everything else the crafting discussion thread suddenly went dead quiet. People seem to love throwing around subjective opinions (as with the last crafting thread where people cried about overnerfing), but rarely actually want to get into the real hard math that actually objectively determines what's truly best in what situation (when I started bringing in actually how strong +skills really mathematically were in that over nerfed craft complaint thread the vocal complainers withered pretty fast).


What do you get out of reading that? It doesn't take a genius to see a big resemble of the asshole Blue does it? Very arrogant/ignorant thing of Baerk to do and then when he gets a real reply he goes quiet quickly.

Fell in love with his numbers but has no understanding of what math is actually relevant and why his numbers were irrelevant.

We are headed down the same stupid shit path again because it's inevitable basically that anyone who assumes or takes 'sole leadership' starts becoming arrogant/obsessive with their position and just does w/e the fuck they want.

Last patch was a success. We don't need huge patches anymore. The team who built the last one should be responsible for any future patches.
No I wasn't on that team for all the pompous dickheads who always assume I'm trying to take someones position. I'm only suggesting what seems logically best.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:27 am 
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One time I handed in one of Lee's posts for a college essay assignment it was 400-600 words.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:18 am 

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Hahahaha, hilarious. Pretty much any thread Lee or Rasta posts in requires:
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:17 am 

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Is that Michael Jackson? R.i.p. to my nigga.

@Lockdown bet you got a fucking A+ and another + Eh?!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:36 am 
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Arguing from a more mathleaning perspective is not bad. It just must be taken with a grain of salt. I think we agree on that. Don't be too quick to make blue2 comments just because one must argue that there is a difference in the approximation vs what is actually experienced. Point it out, stand by it, and debate about the middle ground. This is what is being done imo. It's contentious, it always is. It always should be.

I understand the points that you guys have made. I can only stand so much popcorn though.

It seems that several folks (including some that helped to implement things) have suggested a move back to a little better % on mastery/pierce, or implementation of uber gem crafts. Both sound like they could be done satisfactorily. What is the one that seems best to most?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:54 am 
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Gody crafts should require uber gems imo. Add a new tier i'll be post some numbers later.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:37 pm 

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kramuti wrote:
Arguing from a more mathleaning perspective is not bad. It just must be taken with a grain of salt. I think we agree on that. Don't be too quick to make blue2 comments just because one must argue that there is a difference in the approximation vs what is actually experienced. Point it out, stand by it, and debate about the middle ground. This is what is being done imo. It's contentious, it always is. It always should be.

I understand the points that you guys have made. I can only stand so much popcorn though.

It seems that several folks (including some that helped to implement things) have suggested a move back to a little better % on mastery/pierce, or implementation of uber gem crafts. Both sound like they could be done satisfactorily. What is the one that seems best to most?


I didn't say it was bad. You didn't read my post. I said It depends on what math is used, how and in relation to what. Baerk's math was not accurate because it was only based on TWO variables in a craft when there are far more.

Nothing is being accomplished yet again as Baerk has failed to reply. I posted examples why I compared Baerk to Blue. I didn't just call him 'Blue' out of spite and I said people seem to struggle with power abuse when they assume the role of 'dictator' and do whatever they want.

Making crafts require Uber is hellishly retarded. How many Uber crafts is any individual actually going to roll in a ladder or ever hit any decent craft.

I don't feel like starting a World War II at the moment though so I'm going to say this: 16/16 isn't a bad idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:18 pm 
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You didn't read my post.


Can't blame 'em! Some people can't sit down and read a short novella every night.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:45 pm 
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I figured if we went with uber gem crafts the possibilities could be tinkered with to give better odds. Uber gems are harder to attain, and therefore shouldn't require as many to have a chance at beating said uniques.

It's fine if that isn't the way folks want to go. I wouldn't argue against a slight increase in % to moonstones. It sounds like that is the most agreed upon route.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:58 pm 
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If Uber crafts are gonna happen all crafts need some serious tweaking, which is a bad idea(holy crafts, caster crafts, safety crafts...). Imo we should improve ele crafts(it was I and Pious who came with an idea of 12/12) and magic pref/suffix so all other crafts are worth making. I'd add a new group for gloves/boots/belts etc. with FCR,%ED, min/max dmg/whatever and maybe +skill tab on armors. Don't forget that rolling rares makes sense with only melee weapons, these need improvement also.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:11 pm 
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I'd rather see the affix pool improved than crafts. and not just str/dex improvements but things like CBF, FHR, Absorbs, damage resist, magic resist, %hp/mana etc. etc.

I'd also like to see +1 fire skills, +1 cold skills, +1 light skills, +1 pois skills, +1 mag skills being possible on ilvl 85-90 shields and orbs (fire/cold/light on orbs only ofc), atm its HHG/Ward or bust if your not a necro or pally (notice no crafts or rares in there). You can prevent necro shields from getting them if the automods are deemed strong enough already.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:13 pm 
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[quote="Steel"... and magic pref/suffix so all other crafts are worth making. I'd add a new group for gloves/boots/belts etc. with FCR,%ED, min/max dmg/whatever and maybe +skill tab on armors. Don't forget that rolling rares makes sense with only melee weapons, these need improvement also.[/quote]

I would say that we probably would need to take some of the +all skills and fcr from caster crafts. Which has been brought up as a subject in and of itself. Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:16 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
I would say that we probably would need to take some of the +all skills and fcr from caster crafts. Which has been brought up as a subject in and of itself. Thoughts?


+1, I'd rather they were added to the affix pool. A craft should be like a rare with a slight edge in as much as you get 1-2 mods specialised to your build type. The rare mods should be what make the item great, not a good roll on the guaranteed mods.

Even adding +1-6% ele damage to the affix pool so it's possible to get that 20% BUT, you need a perfect craft roll AND a perfect rare roll.

Edti: @caster craft fcr... possible 180%fcr from 2 rings and an ammy ^^. My windy ran through most of the game with easily maxed FCR without even trying for it. It just came with the mana gear he needed...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:20 pm 

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See how much more positive shit goes when there isn't one person doin w/e the f he wants? Already positive discussion going on... apologize for all the essay posts. I'm just not down for a Blue repeat in a different formation. I have nothing against Baerk and I think he's pretty friendly but the dictatorship shit just doesn't work. If Blue wasn't enough for some of you then Jesus Christ.. you should move to North Korea or someshit. Again my reiteration is that I respect Baerk. I appreciate what he's done. He's a cool guy and all.

Let the community do it's thing.. hence last patch. We don't need major patches to be dropped anymore. We just need agreement on some changes and some serverside patches can be dropped.

+1 Kev Kramuti and Steel

Agree with all of you. Other people should post their opinion and show support/disapproval as well. Only way we can get somethin accomplished round here.
The essay posts shall cease for now.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:32 pm 
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adding stuff to the affixpool without a reset will cause all level reqs on existing rares/crafts to go all to shit. It's just a thought for next reset.

Maybe if you added them to the top or something though. It seems those files are read from bottom to top and the id of the propertys are saved with the item.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:46 am 
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Boy this thread derailed somewhat while I was busy during the national guard activation...

In any case I thought I offered earlier to improve affixes (maybe not clearly). I'd be perfectly willing to alter the rare affix tables (as they are what's used for crafts) as I have complete control over them. Just be sure to note a name, ilvl required to spawn, lvl required to use (crafts will tack on +22 lvl req penalty for 4 affix crafts so keep that in mind), group number (an affix family which you can't get more than one of from on the same item such as 125 for all the +char skills/tabs), and mod(s) granted (its entirely possible for a single affix to give 3 item mods).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:14 pm 
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Lets not go for too many properties per affix, just increase the variety of affixes available.

%ele dmg 3-4% level 50-75
%ele dmg 5-8% level 75+
(single elements, available on staffs, orbs, and torso, pois available on necro heads, wands and torso)
CBF level 75+ available on shields and torso
+1 all skills level 60+, available on orbs/staffs,
damage resist 3-5% level 30+, available on torso, shields and belts
damage resist 5-8% level 75+ available on torso, shields and belts
2-4%hp/mana level 40+ available on torso, boots and gloves
3-6%hp/mana, level 75+ available on torso boots and gloves
6-8% absorb (one per ele), level 60+, available on rings, helms (exclude circlets) and shields
Faster Hit Recovery!!!! 7-10%, level 30-60, available on torso, gloves, belts
12-20%, level 60+
Faster Block Rate, increase it abit on its current values.

buff the "magic only" affixes on a much much bigger scale. 20-30% ele damage (maybe not that much but you get the idea) to maybe bring magic items into the light a little

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:48 am 
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21% FHR is already possible as an affix on torso actually I thought. Keeping the mods mostly at 1 maybe 2 will be good idea though. I entirely forgot to mention the possibility of max possible ilvl the mod's able to spawn at though. While purerage's initial throw out is a start it still needs more details filled in (such as how will the +% element damage affixes will be affix family grouped if at all to prevent the possibility of a +24% damage craft for example).

Also the main reason I've been hesitant with buffing the crafts in the first place... It's an issue which I'm surprised no one else has brought up yet. It's the grim reality of the end game gearing metagame. Everyone's going to be always after the best best best best best best... Even the slightest perceived advantage over everything else is going to cause a landslide popularity change to that particular item. In any game with a very broad item choice its a common fact that a few select items for a given equip slot will trample over everything else causing over 90% of everything else to be either worthless or undesirable.

Getting items with differing sets of mods to be equal = damn near impossible. Unless the items in question have identical mods and rarity people are always going to use some criteria to rate one over the other and trigger a landslide of popularity to the higher rated one. Although people seem to be trying to get common usage for both uniques and crafts the reality is the cruel rules of the gearing metagame dictates one or the other must lose in popularity and/or usage.

Also I will continue to stand by the idea that OP will always be OP no matter how rare. Just because it's a lot rarer is never justification for being a lot stronger in my eyes. The rarer equip should only be somewhat stronger at best.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Quote:
Also the main reason I've been hesitant with buffing the crafts in the first place... It's an issue which I'm surprised no one else has brought up yet. It's the grim reality of the end game gearing metagame. Everyone's going to be always after the best best best best best best...
can't agree. I was using wisp rings over +skill +%ele for more mf/res/spirits while other guys were crafting these like mad . Same with circlets with +4 total, I used kira or griff instead and I didn't feel like I could do better. My point is, if the rarest of rares are better than uniqs, ppl still will use other gear.

Unless you nerf uniqs to 4-5 props, for now there's no real chance to hit max fhr bp's and keep good dps, hp, def etc. with rares/crafts.

Quote:
The rarer equip should only be somewhat stronger at best.
End game uniqs are far better than any craft could possibly be. There are few exception with melee wpns(eth rare zoded) or rings/boots for like a 5% of existing builds.

Also, few new props to jewels could be added if boosting rares is too much. Real chance to fight rares/crafts with uniqs/rw are 4 free slots.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:38 pm 
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That would pretty much be suggesting to nerf unique sockets since some of the end game uniques are not exactly lacking in sockets (griff's being 3 and templar's/tyreals having 4). Overhauling the affix tables for rares/crafts and blues would be no problem for me as long the affix changes could be agreed upon.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:50 pm 

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Baerk wrote:
Also I will continue to stand by the idea that OP will always be OP no matter how rare. Just because it's a lot rarer is never justification for being a lot stronger in my eyes. The rarer equip should only be somewhat stronger at best.
One point of note, you are forgetting. If someone is willing to invest time, gold, and gems to crafts why not allow the items to be a good bit better than an endgame unique? Not as dramatically as say a 20/-20 craft from last patch, but still a bit stronger. If crafts/rares are lacking compared to lvl 90+ uniques then those items will get Charsi'd instead of finding use. I'm a fan of "choices" as opposed to "cookie cutter" item packages.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:38 pm 
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There's one problem trying to go for a challenging mod... The balance will in all likely hood be based on gear that's not terribly hard to find... not the gear that's extremely rare. If extremely rare gear that's a lot stronger is allowed it's going to destroy the end game balance pretty much by allowing things such as easy casual boss soloing should a good collection of that uber gear occur on a char.

It's for this reason I'm a believer in the really rare gear should only be somewhat stronger overall. That somewhat stronger will help give an edge, but it won't throw difficulty out the window like the gear checks in MXL once you meet them.

However, dictating what that somewhat stronger overall really is is the terribly hard part. No one person's opinion is going to properly determine what that is. Having items with differing mod sets be "equal" is so highly subjective there's just simply no hard clean answer for that let alone only "some what stronger". It's for this reason we already had AT LEAST 5 different opinions in this thread on how to patch up crafts properly.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:56 pm 
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Baerk wrote:
Also the main reason I've been hesitant with buffing the crafts in the first place... It's an issue which I'm surprised no one else has brought up yet. It's the grim reality of the end game gearing metagame. Everyone's going to be always after the best best best best best best... Even the slightest perceived advantage over everything else is going to cause a landslide popularity change to that particular item. In any game with a very broad item choice its a common fact that a few select items for a given equip slot will trample over everything else causing over 90% of everything else to be either worthless or undesirable.



So....after spending a month crafting to get a good craft, that 1 in a 1000 is only slightly better than the unique counter part? That would mean that 999 out of 1000 crafts are sub par to the unique counter part. If you think nothing should be better than the high lvl uniques...what's this "choice of items" jazz you're talking about?

I think the quality of gear should be relative to time invested in said gear.

If you do tundra/arreat/ancients/realm runs you're gonna find griffons/temps/tyreals/most to all lvl 95 uniques in a couple weeks. You're also finding gems/runes/facets/gold and not to mention EXP the entire time.

Now when you start cubing your gems, buying jewels, ada hammers, and the items you want to craft, you're not gaining ANYTHING save the crafted item. This must be repeated hundreds of times in order to gain a single( I stress this) A SINGLE item. No runes along the way, no exp, no gold or gems to craft more gear with, no rare chance of a demonhorns or dscale dropping. You are investing all your time into a single item. This will span a month or so depending on your time invested.

This is my view point on crafting. It's not easy, you're not multitasking for exp or rune farming, it's a boring tedious process we endure to obtain an item that no one else will have the exact same of. I don't think said item should be 300% better than any lvl 95 out there, but it should have certain mods that are better than the lvl 90+ counter part. That being said, you cant theory craft an inimaginable item and base the crafting numbers off of it. You will NEVER craft a 12/12 +2all +3Fstorm +3 geddon druid helm......EVER!!!!!! This is why crafting seems so unbalanced to those that dont have the experience with it. You imagine the most ridiculous item and think that everyone will craft that exact same item after a few tries.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:23 pm 

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wow jay made me remember my bnet 1.09 days and the reason i never played xpack. because every char used the same items end game on xpack where classic chars used rares where no char type used the same items but more the same "ideas." this made for unique chars and a fun time!!!!!!! specially for dueling builds. this mod would be insane if crafts and rares were better then uniques!!!

i havent even read anything but this post in this thread and made me smile and remember old times :(

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:32 pm 

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The problem here isn't anyone else or the people proposing solutions because there is a unison agreement on this fundamental principle behind crafting. The wide agreement is this:

A craft which requires extensive time/luck should be better than most uniqs mainly due to the fact that the timing required of gold/gems and luck variable make it very very difficult to actually achieve a craft worthy of beating a uniq.

There is a wide agreement on the above. Baerk you have no understanding of crafting because you have never done it. Stop trying to hammer your theory based opinions on the community. Why don't you actually build a character and go do the farming yourself?

Jay has provided a fine example. Go farm 16 wirt jewels Baerk. Go begin the crafting stage.. craft one item worth mentioning and then come back to these forums and talk your point.

FuryCury is more reputable than I and has played just as long. I'm not stating an opinion only I share. LockDown agrees as well.


I can run a boss 200x with 100% FI and eventually get every high uniq in the game eventually. It's almost guaranteed mathematically. That's something that's positive.

I can craft 200x and not hit the desired item/stats I was wishing to achieve.

That is FACTUAL information in the above because crafting is always 100% LUCK based.

You keep trying to argue without an actual solid point in reasoning. Who is agreeing with you here? I don't see anyone.

Your last point was just point blank retarded and proves your COMPLETE LACK of understanding REGARDING ALL CRAFTS in general.

How much understanding do you actually have of all crafts or crafting in general? I am questioning your credibility on every possible level. I don't think you have much understanding.

Let's go back to the basics. Let's touch basics and then examine why your assertion that "Anything that is OP shouldn't be OP" ignorant statement.

Let's start with the reasoning why ele crafts were nerfed in the first place.

The reason ele crafts were nerfed is because they were buffed by blue in order to get more people to actually craft. Ironic isn't.. then that how nerfing them does the exact opposite? ( One good change from Blue?! What? WTF?! )

It was Pious original idea to nerf the ele crafts because he saw it as added damage from casters in comparison to 1.21z. It was a horrible idea and it mainly originated from nerfing PSN chars. It simply made NERFING psn easy. He felt ele dmg needed nerf from all around and maybe it did but it hardly actually made a true difference in over all damage in the long run and hurt certain builds more so but I'm not interested in talking about that.

The point I'm making is that is WHY ele crafts were nerfed. Now that is understood.

Now this next point is something that shows your complete lack of understanding and ignorant thinking regarding crafting.

Just about every craft is capable of mods that you would define as "OP" I guess my reiteration of +200~300 life on a ring with +1 skills and +20 stre wasn't OP enough for you? Almost EVERY craft yields the possibility of attaining mods that no uniq can really compete with. That is something that is FACTUAL when we are talking about possible variables. Anyone who disagrees feel free to explain why.

I also love the irony of your poll asking for the introduction of elites being able to gambled while strongly posting against the possibility of great crafts which is also essentially GAMBLING.

Take this dose of reality. You're not running things like Blue did. Don't think you can drop patches or do w/e you want. This mod IS IN the communities hands and if your patch is voted as a no go you don't get to implement it. So stop trying to argue with people who know more/far out weigh your experience and start listening for a change because without our support you're nothing.

Word of advice.

If you're going to be arrogant at least be good at it. At least out reason everyone who opposes you and stand out. You're doing that at all. You're just dropping ignorant/arrogant statements which don't benefit your reputation at all and the fact that you have a lack of actual true crafting experience doesn't help you a tiny bit.

Kevin was telling me stories of how you struggled to play HU in normal. You strikingly resemble blue in an odd way.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:38 pm 

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btw if ANYONE actually agrees/supports Baerk's statements PLEASE speak up now and explain WHY. Any single person please state your opinion if you support Baerk and WHY.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:52 pm 

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i support beark because he annoys lee
+1

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Uniques are boring and predictable. Whats the chances of rolling something like a horazons for a windy? Zero. Chances of an orb at least close to fathom? Zero. Chances of a pally sheild close to dscale/alma negra/HoZ? Zero. Armor as good as tyraels for melee? Zero. I could go on all day but I'm waiting for a call from lee's publisher :mrgreen:


Also, wtf is goin on with ele craft weapons? No sane person would even go near a weapon with an MS topaz...

@Imp: you sure he actually annoys lee?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:15 am 

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Your support don't even count cuz you can't spell his name right!

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Uniques are boring and predictable. Whats the chances of rolling something like a horazons for a windy? Zero. Chances of an orb at least close to fathom? Zero. Chances of a pally sheild close to dscale/alma negra/HoZ? Zero. Armor as good as tyraels for melee? Zero. I could go on all day but I'm waiting for a call from lee's publisher :mrgreen:


Also, wtf is goin on with ele craft weapons? No sane person would even go near a weapon with an MS topaz...

@Imp: you sure he actually annoys lee?



I never stated that every single slot had the capability of crafts beating it out. There is a large portion of crafts that do beat out Uniques though.

Caster boots? What beats them?
Caster gloves are only beaten by Souldrainers.
ALL RINGS and even CASTER AMULETS(Ele amulets I mean) have the capability to far out weigh any uniq amulet/ring.

The whole point or emphasis was that ele crafts were not the only craft capable of out weighing a unique item and that others existed. Thank you for the useless information though.

Instead of looking at the focal point of my POINT you went on to take something completely irrelevant out of it just to argue or someshit?

If anyone actually wants to contribute to this post then post why you support Baerk or post why you support whoever else or even state your opinion. Anything else is off topic.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:19 am 
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Think I opened a can of "wyrms". In no way was I bashing Baerk. As a community we should share our experience with the game and enlighten others that don't have that experience.

All I asked was that crafting be looked at from all angles. Not just the end result.

My math teacher in middle school(bless her heart), taught me that math is like sex. It's not all about the end result, it's about the process...the steps per say.

My point, why spend 30 days worth of steps when you can spend a few hours worth of steps and get the same result.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:30 am 

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POST REMOVED TO AVOID FLAME. : :o ( EDITED BY YOURS TRULY LEE )

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:41 am 
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Lee wrote:
I never stated that every single slot had the capability of crafts beating it out. There is a large portion of crafts that do beat out Uniques though.

Caster boots? What beats them?
Caster gloves are only beaten by Souldrainers.
ALL RINGS and even CASTER AMULETS(Ele amulets I mean) have the capability to far out weigh any uniq amulet/ring.

The whole point or emphasis was that ele crafts were not the only craft capable of out weighing a unique item and that others existed. Thank you for the useless information though.

Instead of looking at the focal point of my POINT you went on to take something completely irrelevant out of it just to argue or someshit?


Wtf is your issue? I was agreeing with you that crafts (actually, affixes in general if you actually followed anything i've already said in this thread) should be improved, then you get your period and bitch out on me. You need to chill the fuck out man, you get way to pissed off over the smallest of things and usually because you get the rage because you don't read the full post you are responding too or just don't get the point being made.

"Thanks for the useless information though"... No thank you for the essays with no real point outside of the first 2 lines.

Every time you act like this, my view of you drops... Fucking jesus man, its getting old having to tread lightly whenever you are around for fear of a blazing flame war breaking out.

Back to the point. Those crafts you listed are over the top because of their rediculous preset mods. Scaling back the over the top craft mods and improving affixes brings rares up a little and levels out most crafts.

W/e man, I don't expect you to make it down to that last paragraph when you are so mad, so i'll just brace for a massive wall of text that completely misses every point i just made.
:roll:

Edit: at smartass publishing comment (you posted while i was responding). So now you can't even take a joke? The only reason I said that was because I thought you were mature enough to know friendly banter from abuse. You drop down even further... zzzz.
Put me back on the ever growing list of folks who think you are an idiot. You seemed not too bad recently then make yourself look like a complete tit just now. GJ, you can remove me from your fl too, i got no time for drama queens.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:53 am 

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Nothing about your post was in agreement to anything I said. I stated that crafts beat out uniqs. You stated that uniqs beat out crafts? How the hell did you agree with me?! I'm confused? Maybe I took what you said the wrong way. If you were talking about the needing to buff crafts in general then I took what you said the wrong way but in my post I stated that Baerk failed to compare ALL types of crafts to uniqs so there was room for misconception. I apologize if there was a misconception.

If you read the above through clearly and then look at the "Lee publisher comment" then it's obvious to see where the misconception happened. I thought you were flaming me/disagreeing with my posts and the reason is above.

So anyway apologize on my part but as far as taking a joke I'm actually seriously trying to help balance the game and instead of people contributing or helping at all they want to talk about the length of my posts or some other random shit instead of posting in disagreement or agreement/stating their opinion and contributing to the purpose of the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:18 am 
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I wasn't even talking to you in my first post btw, I was talking to baerk.
If you think that crafts already beat uniques, then you are against buffing them I take it? You were all for it them 1 page back.

IMO:
Treks, Marrows, Strides, Waterwalks, Mancers, Gores > caster boots

Hellmouth, lavas, > caster gloves(build depending ofc) but theres not much in the way of gloves for a caster so you dont really have an option, mancers gloves/boot is nice too if you got the str.

Rings and amulets are ok, caster rings are a bit daft with such massive fcr potential. Wisp, maras, seraphs, zaka ammy, and grid are all top contenders though and much much much easier to get.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:44 am 

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No what I meant was that Baerk stated "Anything OP is OP and shouldn't be OP" and what I was trying to say is that craft rings/amulets and other crafts have the potential to hit powerful mods and not just ele crafts. That was my main point. I think we both got confused or someshit.. I thought you were replying to me.

But I agree with you it's all dependent on the build and what not but the main point I was making is that just it isn't only ele crafts capable of hitting great mods. Every craft has the potential of high end mods.

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 Post subject: Re: Issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:30 am 

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I wont go in saying that crafts need or does not need to get a look. Since I have no experience balancing and not much time playing this mod. IMO, seen the drop rate of uniqes any rare/craft item should have the possibility to beat and unique. It should also be hard to get the unique beaten.
So having the rare affixes/suffexes pool increased would help on that. I have started crafting a weak ago and just got some decent MS crafts by spending lots of time at it. And I yet havent got anything godly, just decent. So crafting is a very important thing to the game, wich leeches the crafters lots of time and effort. This should be rewarded.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:57 am 
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I actually did craft quite a bit in AM but the GF time cost was admittedly quite different per craft (you could actually do atleast a few 88 gem crafts per good GF run at that time). Crafts can have an upwards of 5 automods. Rares affixes could potencially tack on 4 more decent mods. Crafts could potencially have 9 decent mods on them that are mostly good for the build if the affixes roll decently, but not godly (such as atleast getting all the proper affix families even if it's not the highest affix of each affix family) which will atleast bring crafts roughly into the range of uniques.

Personally I'd be in favor of boosting the rare affix pool myself. It will atleast help bring rares into the picture as Purerage pointed out. It will also prevent things like having a craft trying to beat out a unique with a its 3 automod mods alone (which is just begging for subjective balance craziness that no one is going to agree on how to balance). Besides... if the affix pool gets enriched it will also increase the chances of actually rolling decent/good affixes on the craft which avoids the problem of it being near impossible to get a great affix roll on the craft (you may not of gotten the skills/resist all you really wanted but you got a great FHR/resist all/FCR/pierce roll instead).


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:16 pm 

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Boosting the rare affix is something I'd strongly support/agree with based on information I've seen so far.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:24 pm 

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Baerk wrote:
I actually did craft quite a bit in AM but the GF time cost was admittedly quite different per craft (you could actually do atleast a few 88 gem crafts per good GF run at that time). Crafts can have an upwards of 5 automods. Rares affixes could potencially tack on 4 more decent mods. Crafts could potencially have 9 decent mods on them that are mostly good for the build if the affixes roll decently, but not godly (such as atleast getting all the proper affix families even if it's not the highest affix of each affix family) which will atleast bring crafts roughly into the range of uniques.
At last check we are playing Hell Unleashed, so any comparisons to AM are a moot point. That's like comparing a go-kart to an F1 racer (sarcasm). Getting those affixes you speak of are rare in virtually all cases without spending extensive time, gems, and gold on. Some items are much easier to get those rolls with good mods. One example: how easy is it to roll say a 3 java ammy with res/str/dex/life? It's not. More often than not you get the affixes but not skills or vicea versa. Uniques on the other hand are found and have a specific set of automods on each one with a small amout of variances to some aspects, pierce on Templars comes to mind.

Baerk wrote:
Personally I'd be in favor of boosting the rare affix pool myself. It will atleast help bring rares into the picture as Purerage pointed out. It will also prevent things like having a craft trying to beat out a unique with a its 3 automod mods alone (which is just begging for subjective balance craziness that no one is going to agree on how to balance). Besides... if the affix pool gets enriched it will also increase the chances of actually rolling decent/good affixes on the craft which avoids the problem of it being near impossible to get a great affix roll on the craft (you may not of gotten the skills/resist all you really wanted but you got a great FHR/resist all/FCR/pierce roll instead).
While changes to the affix pool are a good idea I would worry that adding pierces and +%ele dmg could spawn in unintended ways. Such as ele gloves getting psn pierce. Adding affixes can solve some issues, but won't necessarily elevate crafts to being subjectively superior to a given rare/unique.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:12 pm 
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As I said earlier I have complete control over the affix tables... The only "unintended" affix affecting crafts in unusual ways like that poison pierce on ele gloves mention you just said would have to be from design from the start and not an "accident".

The text file has room to individually specify 5 equip slots/equip groups a given affix can show up on. It also has room to specify which sub groups/equip slots within a group can be excluded (up to 5 even so a thing like a helm mod that doesn't spawn on circlets is entirely possible).

If someone does manage to come up with some crazy equip group spawn location combo that is not codable I'd let them know immediately anyways. So that a compromise that is codable can be done.

It should be noted that level required to spawn (ilvl) and level required to equip are independant of each other. Nothing prevents me from doing something like the possibility of 1 all skills armor affix for armor and having it spawn on only ilvl 95+ items and it having a lvl 73 req so it ends up lvl 95 req on a craft.

As for the 4 affix thing. Of course getting 4 affixes all each of the highest in the family will be extremely rare. Getting 3-4 desirable affix families present is an other matter (not necessarily the highest amounts available, but at least all the right mod types) which is not so obscenely difficult in my AM experience at least (although admittedly the gold economy at the time allowed me more attempts faster than here).

It should be noted that rares can spawn with 2-6 affixes. I'm personally not familiar with the mechanics that determine how many affixes a rare gets myself though.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:48 am 
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Lee wrote:
Boosting the rare affix is something I'd strongly support/agree with based on information I've seen so far.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:20 am 
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I'm not reading these last two pages. I'm childish that way. Someone summarize for me. (Not Lee the summary would be too long.)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:28 am 

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Baerk wrote:
As for the 4 affix thing. Of course getting 4 affixes all each of the highest in the family will be extremely rare. Getting 3-4 desirable affix families present is an other matter (not necessarily the highest amounts available, but at least all the right mod types) which is not so obscenely difficult in my AM experience at least (although admittedly the gold economy at the time allowed me more attempts faster than here).

It should be noted that rares can spawn with 2-6 affixes. I'm personally not familiar with the mechanics that determine how many affixes a rare gets myself though.
Again Baerk, while you may have some crafting experience, you clearly state it was in AM where it seems easier to get crafting materials. I do know for a fact, crafted many items myself, that getting those good/great affixes is not that easy before you hit say lvl 95+ in most cases. Recently I went through about 20 MS topaz going for ele rings (char lvl 85). Of those only 5 had skills. Of those 5 only 1 or 2 had any decent, not good, mods. While there are some crafts which stand above most, if not all uniques it's in caster crafts especially boots. I suggest you spend some real time working on that which you preach. Crafting on HU I'll bet you may see things a bit differently. I'm not talking SP using hero editor or Udie, but actual realm play.

Returning ele crafts (not rings/ammys) back to 15/16% won't be game breaking but rather serve to give additional choices. As it stands most won't bother crafting most ele gear for the simple fact most unique items are close without needing to farm additional materials and time to get them, a simple fact. A good many here favor this small buff to these crafts, I am one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:46 pm 

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Clearly I don't share a one sided opinion.. most people are in unison agreement here regarding ele crafts. Why Baerk continues to argue with everyone reminds me of the days when I use to ask similar questions with Blue. You can't make sense out of something that makes no sense. You're not effectively arguing or dropping considerably strong points that would make anyone want to agree with you Baerk.

Kwikster is pretty much right. Crafting on AM does not resemble crafting here in any way. They are two different entire systems. It's like comparing the American economy to the Chinese... sure there is a basis to how any economy works and you can find some resemblance but when you actually break into it deeper the differences are rather vast.

If you haven't crafted here then you don't know/understand how difficult/time consuming it is to achieve a crafted item worth mentioning or posting on these forums. People craft all season and never get that one godly/uber craft to brag about.

But I am preaching to the choir because the same point is being repetitively hammered after already being nailed completely down into a piece of wood which if you can take analogy and make something of it then it's like this:

If you start hammering a nail already fully embedded into a piece of wood eventually you crack the wood and if you keep hammering you may break it entirely.

Main point.. take some criticism and start listening to what everyone is saying before the wood breaks and you'll be just like Blue.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:07 pm 

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Shoulda thrown this in my last post but going to say this.. big props to Kiwkster for actually standing up against Baerk rather than speaking an opinion around here. Not many people actually stand up but rather throw in an opinion but Kwikster made some great points and hammered Baerk.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:58 pm 

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Ah, the silence of one lacking true answers. Baerk's silence speaks volumes.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:20 am 

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What can he say? Too much pride to admit he's wrong. Remind you of anyone? And while people are putting emphasis on the length of my posts which more or less are aimed at encouraging people to prevent a Blue #2 wait.. no you'll never guess... a blue #2 is in the making. lol hopefully there are enough people intelligent enough to realize this and instead of screwing around making fun of stupid shit ( Length of Lees posts which I acknowledge is annoyingly long sometimes ) they might show some interest in a positive way because my looong ass posts are trying to prevent history from repeating itself.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:53 am 

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Ya, I know all too well. This patch has decent balance to it in most cases. Just needs a few small tweaks to a few things. I'd like to see a return of feral to it's previous state, ele crafts given a slight buff (read 15/16 range), a slight tweak to conv/lr (similar to current amp) for starters. Give decoy back a bit of viability, now basically useless vs anything more than normal fallen :(

One area I'm not overly happy with is the hi-res/monster AI. Seems to me it causes a lot of desynching and server issues. The merc AI isn't suited to the change, was bad before but now it's horrendous using a ranged merc.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:02 pm 
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lee, we don't want to hear about history okay? nobody talks about survivor season one cause it's in the PAST !
it's allllll about j shore now!
you gotta leave the past in the past !
history and facts are boring and depressing !
la la la la la
your posts are long !

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:10 pm 

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Human accomplishments are important for alot of people. But, only if it has something to do with "them."

Guy with a shit ton of medals from the war, auto-interesting because you wish you had dem medals.
Chick is 1000000000000 dollars from a divorce, auto-interesting to anyone that thinks about getting married 24/7 and wish dey were rich.
Kid watches older kid smoke pot for the first time, auto-interesting, wished they had his experiences.
Dude on HU who beat the last boss of the internet. Not interesting.

You cannot sell any of the deadly sins for past accomplishments in HU. Therefor it is uninteresting. Updating the game as a dev would probably be the only thing, because... it has something to do with "them."


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:58 am 

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lol if you don't care about HU anymore then that's fine. That's you. I've wasted countless hours playing this game so to me it means something that it isn't going to be ran into the shit hole again. I think Baerk has great potential and is much better than Blue so it may go in a positive direction. If a lot of you don't give a shit whether Baerk was running this or LmT then that's fine. That's your choice. My hours count for something on the other hand.

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