Now that Blue is gone well it's obvious to assume his strategy/item page won't be updated anymore and possibly taken down by Blue eventually since hes gone. What about a new one? Is it possible for anyone to put one up?

I'm sure many of you used that website and found it very useful. I always did. In fact.. I still found myself using it a lot even after hitting 100+ How does everyone else feel about it? I wouldn't mind seeing a replica made if it's possible. Does anyone have the skill to do it?

I felt this something important to post it because I think there are lot of people who used the website just like me.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

As long as it doesn't have frames lol.. I remember blue not budging on the fact that frames shouldn't be used in web development (seriously..)

He's still community member/moderator of HU with good knowledge of this mod. Why are you so antiBlue?? His input should be always considered.

Let he say if he quits, not you. It's not like he's hated or something. We just don't follow his approach to HU. And you want to see him dead... LOL

Give me a better option than frames and I would be happy to use it.

Since we DON"T have a database backed website, its frames or nothing. I can't help it if you are too dumb to understand that.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

yeah, until he states that he has no desire to run his website i see no reason to try to make a new one. He has done plenty of great things over the many years and those shouldn't be forgotten. without his efforts we could still be playing 1.21z with no hope for an update.
His website is an excellent tool and I don't think anyone wants to lose it. I believe he likely does and should have pride in what he has created as it is a one stop shop for all info related to HU. He has even added breakpoint tables over the last year or so. a lot easier having all of it compiled in one place.
The character screens was another cool add. I would like to see if those are going to continue. Would be nice to get a couple ladders worth with the added bonus of being able to compare builds against previous patches.

I think the future of the item/strat page is in the hands of blue. Like it has been since he took the reigns from critter. He has done an excellent job maintaining the site and if willing I'm sure he can continue to do so.
ps the mercenary tab under strategy is broken sir

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

I guess I made the wrong assumption. I thought Blue was kind of gone. My mistake.. suppose there is no reason to change the site then.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

+1!

_________________

It's a great tool and it's unnecessary to even discuss this. I've seen no inkling he was going to take down his site. Blue is a valued member of the community for the site alone. I have no desire to see Blue leave HU his modding stand point is the issue not him.

_________________

Listen to yourself for a second. Read what you typed. Read it and then look @ my original post and ask yourself this.

"How did I find any anti-blue sentiment in Lees post?"

"Now that Blue is gone well it's obvious to assume his strategy/item page won't be updated anymore and possibly taken down by Blue eventually since hes gone. What about a new one? Is it possible for anyone to put one up?

I'm sure many of you used that website and found it very useful. I always did. In fact.. I still found myself using it a lot even after hitting 100+ How does everyone else feel about it? I wouldn't mind seeing a replica made if it's possible. Does anyone have the skill to do it?

I felt this something important to post it because I think there are lot of people who used the website just like me."

I made a logical assumption that since Blue left he was probably fed up with the community. He left previously because of negativity and now I assumed that same negativity would result in that page not being updated or brought down.

So that makes me anti-blue? That makes me want Blue dead? That post has some kind of automatic anti-blue in it?

Just relax with what you say because while you completely blew this out of proportion I don't want to see Blue dead. I don't hate him in IRL. I just highly disapprove of him as the Modder of HU.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Again same reiteration from my Steel post.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Re-read my post. I just expressed my opinion on even discussing this. Not everyone is out to get you Lee... we all want mostly the same thing which is a decent patch.

_________________

What on earth do frames have to do with databases?

I have no desire to run the website and will not be editing it with the craptastic patch adjustments the pack of fools is tossing around.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I understand. It was just my point that my assumption was based on reason. I know you've heard the term. It's called logical assumption. So saying it was unnecessary to even discuss this kind of goes against simple reasoning. That's all. Nothing else to say about it.

And as far not discussing it.. well ur friendly neighborhood Blue isn't going to update his website anymore or run it.

Guess it wasn't necessary to discuss, your right.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

If its not your idea its a bad idea? I don't think you are as unreasonable as you are making out.

@Bolded: childish and un-warranted

You have as much say as everyone else, being an equal member of the community.

_________________

The bolded comment really irks me. My thought is this, If terry was the one making these "craptastic patch adjustments" would you be flinging the insults his way?

You know Blue.... MOST of the community was willing to work with you. I don't know how you can't comprehend that. Key term WITH. The people who keep this mod alive posted the opinions and views that come from playing the game through multiple times with craptastic builds and stuff you would normally never dream of making. The community was never against you on a personal level it was the changes you were making based on your asinine understanding of how gimped certain builds are. Pally's will never need 6 points to be valuable party members with the amount of auras they posses and a free max block skill. The problem lied in the extremely stupid strength required for end game weapon choices for the builds that lacked pizazz. Zealers needed help with and AR boost without using 8x 1xx AR 6 Dex Grand charms. Oak is a necessary thing and the life boost being higher than BO makes sense because it doesn't give mana and last 20 minutes like a good BO barb.

Then you threw your temper tantrum likea 4 year old and sulked and refused to even communicate coherently with people who would've helped you make a really good community patch. Now you've returned and most of the comments you've made have been negative and sarcastic and not wanted nor needed. The player base would've gladly helped you had you asked the right people. Steel has been throwing suggestions around for months. Abominae has been posting suggestions as he tests things. The IDEAS have been there and the views and feelings have been more than forth coming. You are either extremely naive or extremely stubborn. I left HU when I saw the direction of the last patch and came back after the reset because Vanilla doesn't have the great community this mod CAN have. Your recent attitude has been very detrimental to the existence of HU with D3 and other games looming ahead.

I haven't been nearly as negative as I've felt you've been when discussing things. Even on the Oak nerf we suggested nerfing it to 4% instead of 3% but you refused to even acknowledge that as a viable option. I still respect everything you've done for this community but when you make comments like that you become lest worthy of respect and more deserving of the hate you have been getting recently.

_________________

he is right. it wasn't necessary to discuss. However it is now.
I myself have no desire to run such a site i have the whole thing copy pasta if anyone can use that. I do not have the knowledge to build one nor the desire to learn.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

Damn one hell of an amazing post. Great post by Lockdown. Basically.. as lockdown explained.

Everyone wanted to work with Blue. We even asked for some compromising. At some point or another you have to compromise. What benefit is there adding what you feel is best if no one else wants it? Who is benefiting? You? It's just a waste of your time and their time.

If so many people don't see eye to eye with you and you refuse to change then it only makes to sense to leave that position.. as you did. I couldn't possibly see what kind of interest you would have in still modding HU with so much negativity against you and your unwillingness to compromise. In fact.. I am surprised it took you so long to decide to leave.

And mentioning D3 and what not.. as those games come out in 2012 HU will positively die. It's as simple as that! SC2 killed SC in foreign countries excluding Korea and SC was better than SC2.

Blizzard has a huge reputation. D3 will be played by everyone, period even if it sucks. This place will be a ghost town.

With so little time left.. you should have just compromised and said fuck it even if the community disagreed with you. What's the point of doing anything else?

This mod has limited time left. We are in the last year of HU. At least let it end on good terms so that people will come back to play Terry's future mod and remember HU in a good way.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Pretty sure he's just trolling.

Of course not, there are TONS of ideas that aren't my ideas that are great ideas. The ones being tossed around (buffing to 3 spawn, putting strength bugging back in, setting max resists to be so easy that every character will have stacked res) just happen to be bad ideas and the people saying them are very foolish. Straight forward logic.

Hence - craptastic adjustments by a pack of fools.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Agreed. It's better to give paladins 6th skill point rather than add str on items melee actually use and -req which casters. Could also remove all dex/vita from gear, %inc mana too as getting more than 5ene on any char is fail...

Was steel being sarcastic or serious?

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Without a doubt. I know you want to dumb the game back down and allow characters to go 100% vit again. Clearly having to click on the big red strength button was far too difficult for players.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Serious... ? Lee you seems sleepy today.

BTW. For max res issue. Only one thing saved ppl from not raging all over forums about res - moncurse LR was broken -1% res. With it fixed I'd like to see getting 75% with -50%lr on late stages.
@Blue. I want? Why I? Removing str from items actually needing 130+str was dumb. Removing str from caster gear/enigma/rings giving 30 was good. Why in earth a paladin who invested 120str already and 70 block can't get more str from heavy equip?? Why giving 1000 mana on 5ene necs?

dskjjhakls;jkals;k nvm

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Here is the thing you are missing. When a druid/barb saves vitality points by strength bugging (and looking at the changes, I am guessing that people will now start to go 30-60pts in strength and using items to make up the rest of the difference), they get an enormous return because they have inherent life boosts.

Paladins on the other hand do not. If they are not in a party

Barb = 4 life per vita.
~lvl30 inc stamina gives about a 150% boost
~lvl30 BO gives about 125% boost.
Therefore 1 click on vita returns 11 life.

Druid = 3 life per vita
~lvl30 lycanthropy gives about a 150% boost
~ lvl30 oak gives a 170% boost
Therefore 1 click on vita returns 9.6 life

For a paladin though who could certainly use CTA on switch for around lvl10 BO (65% boost), one click will return 2.6 life. This lower return of life makes the strength adjustments hit them SO much harder than other melee classes. Granted they have blocking to make up for it, but that simply didn't seem to do the trick. Hence - 6pt paladins. I would have preferred that paladins simply got 2pts of strength for each 1pt invested, but that isn't possible, so this solution does the trick.

Incidentally, the math above should also demonstrate why the oak/lycanthropy changes were proposed also. If you use my numbers (lycan boosted from 4% per lvl to 6% per lvl and oak dropped down to 3%) you get:

Druid = 3 life per vita
~lvl30 lycanthropy gives about a 205% boost
~ lvl30 oak gives a 112% boost

Notice how rather than oak sage being the primary life giver, lycanthropy is. Doesn't that make a lot more sense? It also keeps shapeshifters from dying if their oak sage gets wiped out.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Then why not give the paladin a similar life per vita? Instead of just giving them a 6th stat point. Because in all honesty If i rolled a 6 stat point paly I'd still str bug as much as possible and dump the rest into vit.

As I said in another topic Blue. Your version of HU was to me as vanilla is to some of these guys. A walk in the park all the way to Baal Hell. You went from melee being at the top to casters. You didn't find much of a balance.

Paladins have 4 per vita. They don't need an obscene amount of strength. From anni boots gloves rings alone you can get 30-50 strength. Make no mistake people still bug strength and will until you just remove +stats completely. Have you even played a Paladin all the way thru to Hell Baal? Balancing around what a bunch of people WHO HAVE NEVER PLAYED PAST NORMAL SAY isn't very effective and in all honesty with norm being so easy why would you listen to people who ask before every boss fight "Can we do it?"

_________________

But think Blue! Now your Barbarian can finally have more life than one of my Assassins =D

She'll still have more AR though. In full caster gear.

_________________
A Lannister always pays his debts.

Don't be too cruel:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3254/s ... ot145h.jpg
Vs
http://blue.arimyth.com/images/90-wwBar ... yriddn.jpg
btw. with self bo I have 5.9k hp.

You do realize that Paladins already have 4 life per vit? Probably not.
Setting them to 5 life per vit would be silly and would just reward players who strength bug even further. Dropping it down to 3 life per vit and going with 6pt paladins is bad too - ends up harming them too much.
Unlike you, I have actually run through the other options and concluded that 6pt was the best call.


Of course you would - every experienced player does. I reduced strength boosts to a degree though where the advantage you gain from that effort is relatively small compared to people who don't. So your efforts gain you a small boost (which is good), but not the overwhelming difference that it used to when it was trivial to gain so much str from gear. Apparently though people want to undo that for some undetermined reason. Clearly they feel it was too hard.

[/quote]
You and me both. I don't find this mod challenging in the least, but I am not balancing for my interests alone. This last patch involved only me doing item re-balancing and I left it up to the community to rebalance the skills. That was a massive mistake as they left everything in Hell to be immune to physical dmg and screwed up several other elements while not addressing the glaringly powerful skills such as poison.

Items were done correctly though.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

and yet I find the game to be easy even with a gimped barb and you feel this mod needs to be made even easier by boosting items.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Yes, yes, the mod is always quite easy when you leech through the game Blue. We all know this.

_________________
A Lannister always pays his debts.

Cuz following a party using find potion requires skill.

_________________

armageddon, valor, huge pierce and %ele damage and deadly strike are coming to mind here for some reason... Brevan and I spent a long time adjusting the fire druid tree, then 3 months later, they get oskill firemastery too.

_________________

this includes the game altering runewords, and not fixing the items that still have procs that won't proc, items that don't have correct requirements, etc. Hail the high and mighty.

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

Blue ... I just read through all that babble..So first off you know the game better then us? Lmao I rushed your rabies drood last season...So I can see you being just a pot finder lol..But this line of shit your saying about pallys is just bloody fucking wow... You really have no clue at all how good they really are... You gave them one of or the best zod rw..And think you can't fix Oblivion..Lmao give me a pally with a that extra stat point and I will show you just how op that would be..


Love that post to how you think in other words the community is stupid and you know so much more..Thing is now i'm getting pissed cuz we have great people tring to get shit done and you still have to throw your wait around.. I Don't get you at all anymore ..

_________________
P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

Im actually quite aware of that Blue. But I was responding to what you felt the paladins shortcomings were. From my perspective Paladins should be to D2 what Druids were intended to be for WoW. A jack of all trades. What you're not aware of is that I spent almost 5 hours in a game with Pious working out different builds for the Paly. Trying to solve the issue without a very off the wall fix (ala 6 pnts). What i came to the conclusion of was that your end game items for a paly were lacking. Frankly, what in the world were you thinking puting 400-500 ed on a scepter and 50 FCR on the same scepter? Am i gonna whack it while casting or something? There should have been an end game scepter for melee's. The whole caster thing... They can get those mods off caster type weapons.

As far as the rest is concerned, I feel its an effort to troll and I just dont understand why. Ive been around this community for a god awful long time. Since the days before Darkside, when Shenk was still where the catapault is now. What saddens me is my favorite mod for D2 is reduced to what it is now, Which is a shell of the Mod i fell in love with so many years ago.

People like Terry and Jim were the ones who made this mod what it was. You however have clearly lost all mine and many others respect. It's kind of a shame you would have taken all the credit had your patch actually panned out, but won't take any of the blame for its shortcomings.

I know this I have mentioned this before. But I do agree with Blue on Lycanthropy being a useless skill, even in hc. If it doesnt do you any good in hc then it should be changed. My only suggestion was to make oak a synergy of lycan such that if you maxed lycan; oak would end up giving you the same amount of life as before. Right now oak is always on and recastable. Everyone playing a druid wants all power. If it was a synergy of lycan then you would have people reconsidering all power and using the currently useless skill of lycanthropy. Especially since how will give 1% dr per lvl. The druid your building should be all power at the loss of life or a tank with a lot of life. But he shouldn't be both.

I do disagree with the 6 point paladin thing though just out of symmetry for the game. Again this is just my logic as to why I agree with what Blue suggested for oak. If you want to throw in why the logic above is wrong feel free to do so, but don't base it upon your opinion, base it upon some other logic that makes more sense than what was suggested.

-D

...Is that really Blue's Barbarian? I've made Sorceresses with more HP than that. Self buffed. Though I can't say I'm really all that surprised at all... I've been trying to restrain myself from commentary, but I can't anymore. Shit like that is the reason why HU is a complete and utter clusterfuck now. Because Blue's been playing the game for seven fucking years and ain't learned shit from it. Seriously, he's went from seriously arguing that the purpose of weapons was not to do damage, in the context of a bowazon and specifically in the context of how only Buriza and Windforce do damage (this was way back when Faith etc didn't exist) and every other bow is a waste of an item table slot. Then, after that he started his whole slightly increase ed%, completely remove deadly strike and call it a buff math fail, among many other things that make it abundantly clear he is either mind numbingly stupid, trolling the fuck out of everyone or both. Now he's back to his usual modus operendi - defend useless waste of space XP sinks (while ironically bitching about blazing through the game for tundra runs, which is just formalized XP sinking with a specific purpose), decry anyone who would like to actually contribute to their party, and bitch that givens are broken.

Like with the whole resist thing. It's expected you max all resists in act 1 normal because that's what their damage is calibrated around. And even then if that's all you have no one cares because LR/Conv/passive pierce are all over the place on enemies even in normal and you will often encounter two or even all three of these at the same time... even in normal. So you need that mass stack just to keep up. It's not broken to have it, though it is broken not to have it.

And life? Vita whores for the win wasn't intended, but it came about when the early players with a clue realized balanced stats don't work, and enemies hit way too fucking hard to run low vitality. So instead me and others tried max vitality. And it worked great, so the trend was born. (Conversely, early players who didn't have a clue, like Blue took a lot longer to get it and once they did mostly just whined about it instead of getting with the program, so it should be no surprise he's probably played more than anyone here yet has the least actual experience.)

How do I know all this shit? I am Squelch. As in the Squelch. If you know me hi, if you hate me I don't care, if you want to bitch about me go fuck yourself.

But back to stats and resists, the reason why everyone just maxes Vitality is two fold: 1: Other stats don't do enough. 2: You need all that life just to avoid various OHKOs, much less survive in general. The first problem was eventually fixed... somewhat. The second... people are talking about enemies hitting them for over 20k damage. If anything it's only gotten worse.

So what happens when you force people to have less life? Easy. They get OHKOed more. And when you only do it to melee characters, the so called durable characters... aren't. Know what adding Strength back does? It lets melee characters go back to being contributing party members, and no leeching XP and loot is not a contribution.

This is all simple logic, and is likely being preached to the choir but... Blue doesn't get it. It's also a bit of a rant, but whatever.

Pro tip - if you want to appear aware of something, be specific when you post. When you say things like: "Then why not give the paladin a similar life per vita?" it begs the question similar to what? Similar to a barbarian? They are already similar. It simply appears that you don't realize that paladins ALREADY get 4 life per vita. Be specific or be misunderstood.


I didn't put 50% FCR on that scepter. It had it already (http://critterkiller.arimyth.com/scepters.html) I boosted the ED to make it better and left the fcr on there because I saw no reason to remove it.

Personally, I think that the stats on scepter base items should be revamped to better match different paladins. Would I would LIKE to do for example is set Seraph rods to a str requirement of around 80-90 and drop their dmg. That would allow them to be utilized as high end caster scepters. That can't be done without a reset though. The limitations of white items though means that end game unique paladin weapons are a little whacky.


You and me both.

I am happy to take blame and fix things that went wrong. Valor & Armageddon had a much larger impact than I expected and is going to be fixed in the patch I put together. Paladins got a raw end of the deal with the loss of strength on items - that too was going to be fixed. What I am tired of is you coming in and throwing around ill-informed insults at me when you clearly haven't taken the time to figure out what I did and didn't do. Throwing blame at me for putting 50% FCR on an item that has had 50% FCR on it for ages and you simply didn't notice? Treating me like some sort of idiot when you simply haven't taken the time to look at what I did or didn't do certainly isn't an appropriate step in making me interested in VOLUNTEERING my time.

As I have said to many people - I LOVE to hear feedback. Share with me your ideas of what you want and EXPLAIN why you want them and I am always happy to discuss them. Just do so without your nose in the air and without insults. Use manners in your posting rather than throwing around insults, treat me like a person rather than a punching bag. I am not looking for people to kiss my ass, I just don't want to be treated like some 1/2 rate flunky. Give me a little respect for the years and years that I have been in this community and volunteering to this community.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

First of all : I am not some second rate newcomer, So why don't you start showing me the respect that you so wishly feel you deserve. Second of all I have tried to give you feed back. I even pm'd you to look into the suggestions i had thrown around for the palies in that topic. Instead of giving them an extra 100 vitality... As for life per vita, my idea was more of giving them the highest since both the barb and druid have base life enhancers.

Now Blue, was i wrong for "falsely" blaming you for the 50 fcr on the scepter? Absolutely not. Because you were the lead moderator and therefor that should have already been addressed or was being looked into. Any d2 newcomer can obviously see that the FCR on said scepter was a mistake. Palies are not bad because they lack strength. They are bad, because the end game items are not specifically geared for any 1 thing like several other items are for other classes. What does a zealer need to be effective? High AR. Show me a scepter/weapon geared for them? I suppose ironward. But what Zealers need is direct AR not %ar.

Also Blue, I would have stayed completely out of all this little nitpicking had you not acted, exactly how you are complaining everyone is acting towards you. With your nose in the air unwilling to compromise. You say this and you say that, but from my already mindnumbing read through your debates, you are more about debating to be right than debating to compromise.
As you said you "VOLUNTEERED" to be the head honcho. You were not elected or supported. Therefore why are you upset when the community wants to go another direction? ...Pride?

nice pic squelch. You back on the servers yet?

I'm honestly trying not to post anything too negative or derogatory at the moment. One thing jumps out at me though, skills aren't as valuable to melee as you seem to think based on the item changes I did look at.

_________________

Nah. The clusterfuck would have to be sorted out first. Both with the mod itself and with the people that play it. Seriously, maphack and godmode everywhere? Don't make me Gibbs slap you hoobs back in line.

I am playing single player though. Fire Druids for the win (without noob runewords, thank you very much).

As for the whole Paladin thing... They've always been advertised as tanks, but without life multipliers to call their own... they really aren't. If you want to make Paladins not fragile, then give them a self only life buff somewhere. Maybe on Holy Shield.

Ya maphack has become a problem. And also the paranoia that people are maphacking is as well. If you are familiar with the layout and guess right theres a chance accusations will be made.

Try a light trap asn. You can kite kill practically everything solo ez

Pierce works with traps now? Because I can't be fucked to tickle the damn enemies for half an hour because I brought a no pierce build into a stacked pierce or GTFO mod.

Ah, Cagematch = Squelch? That makes sense. Hiding behind another name again I see. What's wrong, afraid that Soulmancer will toss you out of here for being such a prick in the past? I guess it was probably too much to expect for you to man up and not just use your old name.

So what's new fatty? Its been a while, you must be in 10th grade by now.

You still preaching that idea of mine I had from years ago? You can set it to rest, the life boost will only apply when the character has holy shield active which makes it pretty weak. Inferior proposal to a 6pt paladin build.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Actually probably superior since 100 more vita is basically 400 life... And barbs/druids have to cast life buffs as well. And any paladin who lets holy shield fall is a terrible player anyway. As i said you are just arguing to be right as opposed to compromising.

Both ideas are mine, so I am "right" either way.

Kinda doubt you will figure it out on your own though, so let me spell it out. It isn't just "400 life" it is

400 life x oak boost x BO boost x ruby/life boosts

For just a simple ballpark, you can probably figure an extra 150% when running solo, or an extra 400% when running in a good party. That turns that 400 life in to 1000 life solo, or 2000 life in a party.

To go through the whole math for you, consider a character with 3000 base life:

Solo: 3400 hp x 150% boost = 8.5k life
Party: 3400hp x 400% boost = 17k life

Now you *could* put a life buff on holy shield and generate those same numbers if you wanted, but it would have the downside of fading away if the paladin forgot to keep their holy shield up. The question is - why bother? Why not just give them the buff straight up through a 6point build? Why bother with forcing paladins to max out holy shield when you can accomplish the same purpose with a much more straight forward adjustment.

Hence, I concluded 6pt build superior over my other idea of a holy shield life buff.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

So we should revert increased stamina and give barbs 6 pts to? Make's sense.

_________________

Well since you think im stupid let me give you food for thought. Your assuming and wrongfully so that those 100 extra points will be spent on vitality. Your also forgetting that to get those 100 extra total points you would have to be 100+ which is very uncommon for the average player. What it appears you are only thinking about is end game, not mid-late. Holy shield is available at lvl 28. Few max it until their build is maxed or is sufficient. So lets say 60+ when it actually begins to matter. Which in my opinion is NM on. Your theory is that if the average paladin puts all 60+ points into vit he will have 240 more base life and more based on oak/BO factors.

Now the problem with your theory completely is forcing a Tank class to party with other tank classes (yes im aware druids can be summoners/ele dps with oak still) however most parties only run 1 tank. So nix the BO til you find an Ohm in hell mode (or luckily nm baalish) unless you have a barb in your party which is then lowering overall dps due to the fact that you hate strength stats and high phys resistances. Now according to your numbers and our faithful paladin tank does generate 17k hp in a party based on that fact that he vit whored. Is he not still str bugging? Which you seem so against?

Does an assassin ever let fade/BoS wear off?? Honestly Blue... Your arguments are childish and clearly not thought entirely through. You claim str bugging is for noobs but argue here that to fix the paladins HP problem they should have an additional 100 stats end game to fix. Yet to do so would still require them to still Str bug. Now i fully understand why the community disliked you as a moderator. You are unwilling to comprehend the entire picture and only think in 8 player party modes which rarely happen in a smaller community such as this. And actually the hp buff on holy shield originated on the other forums by Jarl i believe so nix your idea as well.

sure - run the numbers early/mid/late game too if you want. Conclusion will be the same though.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

beat them with your trout squelch!

I've had enough you want to know why Pallys have a problem?
*Note Dex Isn't a problem as Pally's need dex to hit max block and if you aren't going max block on anything but a Healer you're an idiot anyways.

Bolded = Pre Item Changes
Italics = Post Item Changes

Zak's Hand
Required Strength: 58

Required Strength: 74

The Fetid Sprinkler
Required Strength: 76

Required Strength: 92

Heaven's Light
Required Strength: 125
Required Dexterity: 65

Required Strength: 140

Redeemer
Required Strength: 108
Required Dexterity: 69

Required Strength: 170

Ironward
Required Strength: 97
Required Dexterity: 70

Required Strength: 190

The STUPID amount of strength a Paladin needs to invest to wear anything half decent is dumb. The fact they don't have a life buff isn't even close to the issue. Paladins are tanky enough WITHOUT a life buff as they can wear a shield and not get hit with horrid FBR. Negating A LOT OF ATTACKS WITH 75% BLOCK. Oh shit I think they have the best capability for sorbs to don't they? 11% Each from Shield 20% Possible from Auras. 31% Sorb WITHOUT RINGS!? Shit that's another 12% Possible.. 43% SORB?! While maintaing 50k+ Defense Easily without frozen armor? Shit. Pallys have problems they obviously need a buff from an already spectacular tank class. The uniques available for use by Pallys was horrid. Finding Flat AR on anything other than Safety Rings and Metalgrid was damn near impossible without having 10x 100AR 6 Dex Gcs. Have you ever even played a Pally? Everyone rightly thought they were a gimped class but it wasn't because they didn't have a big life bulb. They just had a gimped weapon selection.

_________________

I have yet to see a reason to give 1 more stat point for every level. Every argument is balance related. You should have a damn good reason to give any class this advantage, and it sure all hell shouldn't be based on 'well, it fixes this problem'. You know this blue.

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

Block and absorb doesn't matter, they need more hp and 7 stat points. Anyone who doesn't agree with that is cunt and ungrateful bastard. I wonder why SM didn't come with an idea of 6 point paladins earlier...

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

Just remember that you are only looking at end game paladins. Obviously you showed mid game scepters as well but your bases are strictly from late game..

Blue, buddy! I was wondering if you'd ever actually respond to me, or just keep on ignoring me.



Yes, I'm totally hiding. That's why I made it very clear from post 1 I knew the history and technical aspects of the game, which very few other people would know and that's why I flat out said who I was the moment I began to post anything controversial before anyone even asked about my identity! Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense at all to anyone except you and your delusional mind!

So yo dumbfuck. It's been 5 years and you're the only one with a dick still broken off in your ass about me. While this is to be expected, as you are exactly the same mouth breathing fuckwit I remember you being it is nonetheless sad that you still cling to such feeble arguments and insults.

Anyways I didn't use the name Squelch because I figured some idiot like yourself got the name deleted or banned a long time ago. That and I did not originally return to pick fights, however your stupidity was so offensive and so much a detriment to humanity as a whole I could not resist the urge to lock, load, and let loose with the flamethrower.



Insulting someone on the basis of their age is a lot more compelling when you use more educated insults than "fatty", especially when those insults are as completely offbase now as they were then. Of course you are wrong about that too Mr. Forty Year Old Virgin.

And don't give yourself too much credit little fuckwit. Your idea? Pfft, as if it takes much original thought to choose to stick it to the only skill used by all Paladins regardless of build. So it only works when Holy Shield is on... And... BO only works as long as its duration lasts, Oak only works until it dies... what's your fucking point? Oh right you don't have one, because you are Derp God Blue. That's why you cannot figure out how to get max block on a goddamned PALADIN. For fuck's sake, if you played a hoobadin in your prime you'd be unable to kill shit with an AUTOMATIC AURA PULSE.

Can anyone else fail as bad as you?



No, no they cannot. That is why you insist upon giving all Paladins an extra stat point simply because you are so mind numbingly stupid you cannot play one without it. An extra stat point that does not address the actual problems with their survivability, namely the lack of a life multiplier.

Blue, you are neither the first nor the best mouth breathing fuckwit to cross paths with me. In fact, I roast idiots like you for breakfast. I am just getting started. Step on out in shame before I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.



Trout? Nah, I've upgraded weapons long ago.

I now use this for beating down the fuckwits.

1. Overly impacted by the removal of strength from items
Removal of strength from items prevents strength bugging and forces characters to put pts in strength to use more powerful gear. This reduced the all vita charactes on the realm and provides more balance between the haves and have nots. However, it disproportionately impacted paladins compared to other characters becuase:

When a druid/barb saves vitality points by strength bugging (and looking at the changes, I am guessing that people will now start to go 30-60pts in strength and using items to make up the rest of the difference), they get an enormous return because they have inherent life boosts.

Paladins on the other hand do not. If they are not in a party

Barb = 4 life per vita.
~lvl30 inc stamina gives about a 150% boost
~lvl30 BO gives about 125% boost.
Therefore 1 click on vita returns 11 life.

Druid = 3 life per vita
~lvl30 lycanthropy gives about a 150% boost
~ lvl30 oak gives a 170% boost
Therefore 1 click on vita returns 9.6 life

For a paladin though who could certainly use CTA on switch for around lvl10 BO (65% boost), one click will return 2.6 life. This lower return of life makes the strength adjustments hit them SO much harder than other melee classes. Granted they have blocking to make up for it, but that simply didn't seem to do the trick, largely due to elemental damage bringing them to their knees

2. Items aren't enough
While you can compensate this somewhat with specific items having -req in the end though building a full item set customized to either melee or caster paladins is infeasible, especially without a reset. What paladins ideally need is end game items to have -100 strength, and mid game items to have around -50 strength. Giving a paladin extra stat points as the game moves forward provides a slow ramp up of power rather than a more jagged slope that you would see if they hopped from item to item.

3. It is a smooth life buff
This is a life buff that you can't maximize in norm and then ride the wave, it continues smoothly throughout the life of the character providing a slow steady buff to the build.

4. The drawbacks are minimal
The big downside is an increase in Healer power as they are one of the few "pure" caster builds. Healers will have more life due to this change, and while that is kinda a downer it is an acceptable loss. Any of the other solutions (life buff on holy shield, more powerful items designed for paladins), would probably have a similar impact. As for hammerdins, their need to get up close to bosses in order to setup spiral patterns makes them a fine canidate for a boost.

So there you go - clear, detailed reasons. I have yet to hear anyone outline similar arguments against it other than "I have played 10 billion hours of this game and I know that you are wrong".

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Haven't listened to a word you have said since your first ranting/raging post. Only took about 2 seconds to realize you were an idiot. The ignore feature is rather handy.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Wow.
?
0% ctblock, 0 abs.
btw. Blue you should quit your mod function, we could ignore you too then.

pretty typical answer

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

1. Overly impacted by the removal of strength from items (balance)
2. Items aren't enough (balance)
3. It is a smooth life buff (justification)
4. The drawbacks are minimal (justification)

There is no core reason that stands apart from balance. Therefore is is not an optimal solution to the initial problem(s).

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

ok, do you disagree with my balance statements?
do you have arguments of your own, or are you just planning to be critical of my statements? It is easy to be critical, it is harder to provide superior reasoning.

*edit*
Incidentally, I disagree with your definition of justification, it appears that you are fabricating the definition. Here is an outside reference for what the word means:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/justification
a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.

The justification for giving paladins a boost via 6pts per level is because they were harmed by previous adjustments to strength on items. That isn't a balance concern, it is a justification. I don't believe that paladins have suffered from the removal of str from items, I have illustrated why they have suffered from the removal of str on items. Do you see the difference?

Similar story with items. The justification for going with a 6pt build is that items are a more complicated and less robust solution.

In the interest of playing along though - illuminate me on your justifications or why my "balance" is inaccurate. Despite accusations to the contrary, I am very open to hearing different viewpoints.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Huh. So what's your view on melee assassins and melee zons? 4hp per vita, 0 lifebuffs, wpns require both str and dex. Maybe give them 6 points too? You balance this game with items/skills not by adding 20% more stat points to one class not addressing real issues - high magic res on everything, high phys res on everything, wpns requiring the same amount of str as ordinary wpns but doing 3/5 dmg. You will ofc say you addressed phys res already bla bla but again, if you do then just test it first. It's all your style - cut everything to 0, nerf melee items so only 3-4 armors are used, maybe 2 head gear, 1 boots, nerf amp and in the end say "It wasn't me". Now you want to buff paladins with lower phys res, lower magic res, lower str on items, and 6points. Soulmancer already told you - small buffs.

And nobody need to prove you wrong. You still haven't stated how this will address real issues of paladins and it's not your mod, so your opinions can be easily ignored. Right?

Rather than asking questions Steel, how about answering them?

Go ahead and answer the questions you raise and tell me YOUR solutions.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Ok, Assassins - block + fade, nn 6th point even with 2.5k base hp dclaw sin.
Melee zons - added pikes by Soulmancer giving them boost(50% then inc stamina) to hp not 6th stat point.
I didn't say they have a problem. You're telling us paladins have some problems. Ofc they have just like rest of melee classes not being able to do dmg/leech back/tank or hdins/bone necs not being able to do good damage to bosses due to rather high magic res than overall pierce exist.
You came with an idea that paladins are weak and need a boost, can you provide some info who said they need more hp? Vita doesn't kill. Just don't tell you played them as everyone know how you "play" now, I don't say you're noob, you just play 4-5min a game and log off. Btw. you died on HC norm with golemancer?
You are like: "there is no sun, prove me wrong" but it's you who should prove everyone you're right, so far nobody agrees with you... nobody.

Agreed.


This was the information that I heard from players on the realm and the forums. Could be challenging to track it down, but I will tell you with honestly that I was responding to feedback from players that Paladins were simply no fun to play because they couldn't stand up to things despite having block and shields. The extreme lack of paladins on the ladders was also a big indicator.

I have to say that I personally would much rather play a barb or druid as they have a life buff and can stand toe to toe against elemental dmg a bit better than a paladin.

So quite simply, it seemed to me that paladins could use a little boost since they got reduced with patch 1.3a

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

A lot could be done to fix paladins, however... just by simply tweaking up their more lackluster auras. An example of a buff paladins got is that blessed aim gives paladins LL even when the aura is not active (which means it doesn't necessarily have to directly conflict with active aura choice)

In the absence of changes to Drain Effectiveness/Physical resists, adding life leech is going to make a very small impact on paladin playability.

Reference this post by brevan for more info: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3082&p=25390

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Theres a reason I stopped posting on these forums and it isn't just because I've been on vacation. I'll never be as active as I ever was on these forums. I was pathetic for wasting my time. Such loser shit.. no point in arguing back and forth. You guys need a vacation or someshit.

Blue is out - other people took over.

Wtf is the point of still arguing? Wasting your time...

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

I've played two Paladins this ladder one to 96 and one to 98 (currently leveling him to 99 but my play time has been cut) and they are more enjoyable to play than the Druid Barb 2 Zons 2 Sorcs and 3 Sins I've rolled (I don't do pale mullet Al Davis Necros). Those people don't know how resist absorb and MDR work obviously. It isn't a hard to play and do well with. Hell Max Convic is a waste of time anyway. Why bother putting 20 points in when 1 will break immunities as well as a level 20. (With +Skills gear that is abundant at any level)

_________________

Classic blue_balls. "Herpity derp herp derp, someone said mean yet true things I have no answer to so look at me put my fingers in my ears and ignore them! Hey, where did everyone go?"

That is quite fine blue, for you see I need not lift a finger to get you to make a fool of yourself. You are doing an excellent job of that on your own.



You also still fail at math forever, as evidenced by you thinking 4 * 1.65 = 2.6, and not the 6.6 it actually means. I am also quite curious as to why a CTA user would only have a level 10 skill, especially since there are far more skills around but of course you are "no habla logico" so you have no answer to anything that would put the light of truth to your sad and pathetic delusions.

Semantics: Our points of reference are totally different. why a change as fundamental as different values of stat points for a single class should be made should not stem from a balance issue imo. My pov is that your the later entries in your post were justifications for the changes being ok. I understand your view as well...I just disagree that your starting point is correct one.

Coming more to a medium with strength requirements of one-handed weapons would be the first choice. A lot was removed. That was actually not a bad thing to do imo for a first shot solution to the pains of the past because it left you with a lot of wiggle room just playing with that stat alone. Why not refine that first?

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

It is a start, but it has a few drawbacks that leads me to discard it:

1. 1h weapons are a start, but what about armor? If you set the bar that melee paladins only need around 120str by adjusting 1h weapons where does that leave them with end game armor? Steel Carapace and Tyrael's are both at 232 and have tasty mods to balance out that vast str requirement, do you simply leave them out of reach for melee paladins? Same story with Steelrends or Worldstone granite. You reach a point where you need to have a fixed strength point for gear in my opinion.

2. It is a VAST amount of text editing to tweak the str requirements of every 1h weapon and then to tweak them back if there is a problem. I wanted to take advantage of a mid-season patch with a quick fix that was easy to implement and if broken - easy to remove.

Incidentally, I also disagree that it is THAT big of a change. It really isn't so much of a boost in my opinion:

lvl25 = +100 life
lvl50 = +200 life
lvl75 = +300 life
lvl100 = +400 life

It is also tempered in my model by the oak sage reduction which is an important part of the all around balance. Picking apart separate elements and looking at them independent of other changes can lead to some problems.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I understand that the changes are more tedious to implement, but it is a better choice than further altering measuring stick. Once the changes for 1.3a were made, and there was quite a bit, there was no reason to look at other sources or correction at that time.

Giving back some + to stats to supplement is another tedious, yet more appealing solution. I understand that you get close to the realm of abhorrently easy strength glitching...but wasn't the point of taking a lot of sources away was to see the total other end of the spectrum? Ok, we saw it. Move it back along the correction line a bit before we start considering more awkward solutions. That is what the attempt is about on the other proposed patch.

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

While I'm amazed he is behaving as well as he is (not sarcasm, I really did expect worse) expecting Blue to hold down a reasonable conversation just isn't reasonable.

His entire motivation behind his stuff is that "I don't like it when people play like this, so I'm going to stop them from playing in that way." And the method of play he's opposed to is the one that just about everyone else does. It's not as obvious with the str bugging thing as it is with say... critical strike, but it's still quite obvious. He's in a more binding marriage to his own ideas than the worst of cuckolders could provide. Nothing will ever change that, which is why he wants to break more and more things just to get out of admitting he was wrong.

How to make Paladins live up to their names as tanks: Give them a life multiplier, on Holy Shield because it's the only skill all Paladins, regardless of build use. Problem solved. Their base life is exactly the same as the other melee classes, with strength added back to items they don't have to waste stat points. As for how much, well people don't complain about increased stamina do they? So give HS the same amount it has.

See how that neatly addressed the actual problem without breaking 20 other things? He'll try to take credit for it of course, but given that it took me longer to type the words Holy Shield than to think of the solution start to finish it clearly wasn't that original or hard to figure out.

What makes it better? I believe I outlined why I thought it was an inferior choice.


Not tedious, but foolish. Players can still strength bug if they really try, but it severely limits their options and requires lots and lots of gear. If you start putting strength back on items though that goes away. Str bugging is viable, just really freaking annoying - and what is the point of that? I figure it should be a black or white issues: either have str bugging or don't have str bugging. Don't put str bugging in just for end game players or for people with lots of gear. That just rewards tedium and fills the early levels with useless characters who "can't do anything b/c I can't wear my gear yet" and huddle in the corner leeching their way through the game.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Kinda like you or so I've heard.

_________________

Wouldn't that just simply be inconsistency in gear design then if the mid level gear's totally lacking +stats yet the end gear isn't?

Then unparty them or do another game with lvl rest with guys you know, why bother carrying naked leechers?
STR gives a nice bonus for dmg and not everyone str bug their chars - I know you did but that didn't get you so far. Casters get 100str early and forget about it completely. You're trying to fight str bug completely ignoring a fact noone does it.

FwaKOOM!

That was the sound of blue being roasted.

when you instigate you need to lead with the hook man, havent you learned anything?! come on!

_________________
Its always in the last place you look....

Not really, most players don't think that far in advance. It works like:
1. Level character really fast
2. Gear with end game gear

Until then, most don't even bother to do the math and add up the points. As long as they know they can get the str at the end, they don't much worry about it. The key issue is to simply make it clear that you can't strength bug and that people should spend the points. Having any sort of middle ground and grey around the area simply encourages people to str bug.

If you guys think you can balance the items properly though to allow players to smoothly transition from one str bug item to the next though, perhaps you can do it. I personally didn't feel it was worth the time/effort. It will also limit the items that players use as str bug based items will be much more popular than others, but it seems like reducing gear variability is already pretty high on the list with the reintroduction of deadly strike to uniques.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I think you are being argumentative Steel.
It should be pretty clear that I don't strength bug characters and never really did.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Your ww barb has 232 str(with gear,without it you'd not be able to wear 232req armors, its a str bug) just for steelcarap, that means you don't care about extra %ed and just threat str as armor req stat. Which makes no sense, you want to remove all str from gear, lower life buffs(inc stamina/lycan were 5% on 1.21, so barbs had 8%, shapeshifter druids 10% more hp per +skill)then convince us something is wrong is with chars hp...

Correct - I view str as an extra armor req stat.
Investing around 180-200pts in str is very different from what I would consider str bugging, however I wasn't specific in my definition so fair enough. The definition of "str bugging" that has been used around the community for the past 7+ years is to gain a significant amount of your strength from items and then leap frog over to items through taking items on and off. For a simplistic example, you would toss on a high str circlet to hit 185 str, put on steelrends for the +30str boost and then remove the circlet.


I didn't touch inc stamina and lycan and I didn't make the decision to change those skills. As mentioned, I relied on the community to balance the skills and I feel they made some bad decisions.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

But you were the modder, so you obviously had to agree with them to a degree to even implement the things they said, eitherway its your fault for listening to stupid ass shit. Because if you didnt agree with them and still implemented the things they said then you're an idiot.
Dude you have to start taking some responsibility for the shit you've caused. Maybe the things you implemented wasnt your idea but you fucking implemented them.
So be a fucking man, and take responsibility for the faults you've caused and be done with it.

_________________
Its always in the last place you look....

People give me shit for ignoring everyone's feedback and just implementing things the way that I want.
Then people give me shit when I let other people's views override my own opinion and implement what they want.

Which way is it going to be? You want me to ignore everyone or listen to everyone?

I clearly didn't support a decrease in skill based life buffs, but that is what the community wanted so I went along and implemented it. That doesn't change how I feel about it then or now.

*why did I even read your post, I need to remember not to click on the posts from people I have on the ignore list, they are ignored for a reason - they simply dont have anything intelligent to say*

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Community didn't touch the skills. All ideas came from closed forums, only firedruid changes were Brevan's numbers.
I didn't like inc/lycan changes tbh, but I understand this nerf, these 2 classes could go 20k hp *with* str bugging. Add your str removal (instead of nerf) and you have chars pumping str for gear, rest into vita. That's why 1 item - steelrend - give 300%, that's 3/4 of 100str bonus??
It's one of many reasons I don't like your approach to balance HU. Forcing guys to play how you feel they should play (ie removal of skillers... oh they should do baal runs not tundra for gcs... you did any baal/los run recently?)leaving little to none space for a creativity

Btw. getting 200/50 str/vit by 40lvl is a better idea than 200vit/50str . 850%ed, few diamonds and you can ww all day. Ofc newbies go all vita.

Forums got opened up long before changes went final. Either way - it wasn't *my* idea which is what you were implying in this message:

Do you understand what I am saying?


Correct - that is what I assume players would do. Granted they could pump str if they want a high dmg boost.


Technically 2/3 - but that's not important. Yes, that item was buffed with a straight dmg boost, but since it lost the crushing blow and 25% deadly strike that buff is rather overshadowed by the significant nerf. Sort of like saying that I took $10,000 from your bank account, but gave you a 42" flat screen TV.

Glad you are enjoying the diamond route - nice to see that there is room for creativity rather than going 100% vit for characters.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Ah right, 2h wpns have 450%, 1h 375% per 100, my bad.
I went 80str/60dex/rest vita, rubies in gear, so far 0 deaths due to max res/max block from lvl 20+

Wait...

I didn't see anyone complaining about the drop on the passive unsharable lifebuffs like lycan and Inc stamina. Mainly because that effects 1 build/char and not every already struggling class in the game.

Ps, since i missed the pally debate: pallys are fine as they are life wise and their party friendlyness is good. It would be amazing if it wasn't for the fucking auras on every second item that anyone can use.

"This item sux"

"I'll slap some random aura on it, the paladins combat skills are what make him interesting and unique anyway, not his auras..."

"Now lets give paladins another stat point instead of simply adding +str to MIGHT as a passive bonus for hard points, it's not like pallys can spare the skill points for that and I can't have people spending more than 1 point in any aura besides prayer, concentration and conviction..."

The only problem they have is damage output. Making them sturdier isn't solving that.

Finally, the main problem now is EVERYTHING has + all skills or + class skills. At least with skill charms, folks were focusing on 1 tree so werelosing out in other areas. Oskill BO was less potent as there was less + all skills available and elemental druids oak level was lower as they had to focus on + elemental skills.

That last part was kinda moot as geddon and valor were slipped in after the fire skills were adjusted and completely fucked that up by a long way.

I'm fine with the skiller removal, it's just the items were lazily adjusted to compensate by simply adding more +all skills instead of using single trees.
----------------------------------------------------------

I've accepted that I completely overlooked the boss charm and that was a mistake. I still stand by my previous statements though that the problems with skills could have been addressed in no time if people had bothered testing it in the first place (as that stuff was done and available since april/may of last year and the patch wasn't released until december). The item stuff wasn't even released for testing was it? Maybe it was, I was away in december.

Luckily, everyone seems to have learned from past experiences and there are actually a few people doing some testing this time around. The odd thing is though, that the bosses unique items were overlooked by the person who has spent the most time in uniqueitems.txt over the years. I'm pretty sure if i'd browsed through uniqueitems.txt and spotted "Boss Hat", Meph Hat", Diablo Hat" (think thats their names, if not its something like it), I'd have taken a look and at least raised the point before it was released.

Again, thats not just 1 persons fault, people need to take responsibility for demanding a release without any propper testing of the final patch with items included.
(Since items need to be adjusted based on specific builds strengths and weaknesses, NOT grouping all caster skills in together and giving everything + all skills and masses and masses of +% elemental damage and pierce. All that does in increase the gap between the OP builds and the builds that become hell mules.)

/rant

Ps. Wow, that became like 8* longer than i first thought. Maybe I should lay of the Guinness

_________________

The one with the self stirring thingy in the bottom? Thats what I'm drinking while packing up my apartment

The rant was full of valid points which will now be ignored by Blue.

_________________

You are jumping in the middle of the conversation and cherry picking quotes PureRage. Let me provide you with some background:


Steel seemed to be confused and suggested that I implemented a reduction in increase stamina/lycanthropy. That isn't the case. If *I* had adjusted the life buffs, I would have reduced Battle Orders and Oak sage instead since melee characters were already seeing a life reduction through the loss of strength on items.

So I wanted to clarify that. Re-reading the posts, I don't think I did a very good job of being clear though so hopefully the paragraph above resolves the confusion.

As for what was done with skills - I was pretty cool with what the community wanted to do. As I mentioned after the patch went live, I felt that you did a good job of summarizing what the community wanted and I for the most part stayed clear of the discussion. I was fine letting the community roll with whatever changes they wanted, I figured it made the most sense to divide the labor - let other folks tackle skill stuff while I tackled items. I decided to go above and beyond with documentation and make my changes very public and very clear by creating a duplicate version of CritterKiller and highlighting buffs in green and nerfs in red. I wanted to encourage people to read and review the changes so that things could be implemented appropriately. Full and open disclosure was very apparent in what I was doing.

I not only outlined the items, but also the general direction I was heading in. This was done in August: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2036

In hindsight, I think it was a bad decision to have the separation of roles. It seems that without a single person running the show on everything the changes simply don't gel. I should have spent another few weeks running through the skill changes line by line. To be honest though, near the end of the patch cycle, I was getting pretty fed up with the community. Not only were they not reading the documentation and thus making false statements, they were being a pack of really rude asswipes. Here I am putting in all this effort for a bunch of spoiled kids who wanted everything. I pretty much reached a point where I wanted to pack it up and be done with it.

Incidentally - I feel that requiring all paladins to put points in to might isn't a great idea. I find that when playing a paladin I don't have a lot of spare points laying around. A truly passive bonus of +1 stat pt per level quite simply seems much more straight forward and appears to have zero bug possibilities.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

being concerned with their health wouldn't it have been just as easy to give them 4 more life per lvl up??

_________________
Practice safe trolling and be wary of spambots they have squaids.

never!
well, unless you're broke like me.. (cracks a pbr)

_________________

That would make sense. Prepare to meet the ignore function.

Don't pretend being broke buying PBR you Budgie!

I love being on the ignore function means I can constantly slam and not have to read idiocy directed at me.

_________________

Edit: TLDR - IDK, i forgot myself what i've been talking about in this post

regarding pallys not having enough points. The only pally that may be an issue with is a hdin (i never play them, i never liked the build as it always seemed like a cop out/way to easy mode the game due to the bypass.

Every pally I've ever made has been a 60 point build max + 1 point in every aura.

My venger at the start of the 1.21 ladder season had maxed veng, convic and 1 point in everything else + i never used vengeance outside of act 3 normal except to make it look like i was doing something while the druid and necro + my merc cleared the way to bosses.

Same case with my healer. Maxed prayer and put 10ish in holy bolt + 1 pointed everything else. I ended up with 50 points spare eventually so I stuck em in FoH, Holy Bolt and hammers (nothing else worth sinking them in).

Zealer, maxed fana and zeal and 1 in holy shield (to keep smite damage down though i'd probs max smite now too for the dr%). still a 60 point build though.

Holy fire bowadin, maxed holy fire and the synergies then 1 in all auras, another 60 pointer.

Making use of auras that are not actually ran via a hard point synergy is a great way toactually make use of these skills. Terry had this in mind for the pally from the begining with passive stats attatched to aurae but never pushed it as far as it could comfortably go IMO.
------------------------------------------------

Regarding Oak/BO:
doing that simply makes it harder for builds without their own life buff to progress without one of those chars with them. Since charges of oak are then just over half as potent, it hurts the builds who don't deserve it more than it hurts those who do deserve it.
No problems for druids as they already have 2 lifebuffs
same with barbs with 2 lifebuffs.

Nerfing oak just means a druid is required even more and they must max oak as non maxed sources of oak simply won't cut it.

Just look at the numbers. Oak from wisp with it set to 3% grants 61%hp. The ring must be equipped at all times for the oak to stay alive, it dies often in boss fights and has mediocre range. This all on an end game item.

Now look at CTA. possible level 8 BO with battle command and no other + skills, with spirit shield, zaka ammy, 2 soj's an ele craft armor, caster boots a +2 all helm, +1 from gloves and +1-2 from belt. Level 21 BO with mediocre gear easily found by the end of act 3 NM.

Thats 63% HP without the base gain (is it 25% still?) so 88% hp + mana that is unkillable and that cant go out of range.

Top one is something you find in act 3 hell and up (very very lucky if you find one before sarina), second scenario is something you have access to by the time you are in act 3 NM. A full difficulty difference, while providing more hp% more mana%, and suffers none of the drawbacks that oak does (requires the user to be in range and not be a complete retard + stay on top of recasting it in the middle of boss fights, cutting down DPS too.

Instead of that, just remove 50% of all the + all skills on stuff and replace it with "+x to xxx tree" or + to specific skills that need it. Blanketing it with +all skills pushes the already OP builds even further over the top as their secondary skills are now 2 sometimes 3 times as strong as before. Oskill battle orders is 2 times as strong as it was before simply due to the absurd number of + all skills available.

It's another bandaid change that would turn bad very fast. There is nothing wrong with targeting specific builds for buffs or nerfs. The last patch became a blanket effect patch.

There is nothing wrong with a skill being good, the only problem comes when it is the only thing worth maxing. I'd say its better to bring those skills that never get touched in to play rather than nerfing skills that work well and do the job they were designed to do. Surely its better to create more choice than to restrict it.

Ps. The melee paladin suffers without CB because 1 handed weapons are terrible. The only 1 handed weapon that was worth using in the past was obedience or death rw in an eth phase blade/zerker/legendary mallet. (before ber'd caddy ofc) The only reason they were acceptable as weapons was because they had absurdly high ED% + stats/CB for their level.

Instead of farting around with weapons (as if you buff them, they become OP for classes like barbs and druids as they have way better attack skills and passives that boost melee combat), add an additional 10 or 15 to the srcdam column for the paladins melee combat skills. Vengeance could most likely use an extra 32 (so it would deal 5/4 damage). Leave zeal as is, its ok for trash but you wouldn't use it on a meaningfull boss as the bosses that matter cast IM and rape your face as you zeal and can't stop. Wouldnt mind seeing charge get a 3/2 modifier too.

Pps. Like I said in the past, I had no issues with dropping Oak to 3% as I only ever had oak if I was
A: in a big party (on HC... trololo)
B: playing a druid myself (though I still prefer to max HoW over oak purely for cool points)
C: Playing in my regular duo at the start of a patch with eddie

When I do find a Wisp, i prefer to use SoB and the last CTA I made came out with the worst roll in history so i'd rather save my runes (as my luck with drops is worse than a hookers luck with herpes) and cube up to make war.
It would hurt the casual player more then the experienced players who can only find challenge in the end game content (excluding the bnet kiddies that seem to be everywhare these days using hacks)

Whats the point in nerfing oak when so many use godmode or autotarget MH and never need to get close to a boss anyway...
(you know who you are and yes i'm calling you a fag for being so bad at a 12 year old game that you still need to use hacks to do anything yet still claim to be awesome (lmfao btw))

@ Being concerned at paladins health. I hope nobody is concerned with paladins health as you can hit 14k without bo or oak on a pally already. Probs way more now since with the extra + all skills you can get oskill inc stamina alot higher than you could before.
Can't find the SS of my old pally once he was finished. 50% of those charms are +10 life but they were eventually upgraded to 19-20's to take him to 39.5k with no pally heart or sammy brain and 5 levels short of the highest possible on oak. With brain and the 196 life heart he had in stash it wuda been up around 41-42k hp. With an extra 400 base life from 100 vita, more like 45-46k. Survival isn't the problem, its melee damage output due to shit combat skills

_________________

how is that superior to my proposal?

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Both are not needed because a paladin can already get higher hp than a druid or a barb in a party setting. Hell you can get higher hp than a lot of barbs without bo or oak. Paladins survival isn't the issue here, its the other close range classes that need oak love. Paladins need damage in melee form.

_________________

All these people saying it's all about the max life... sheesh... that only matters if you're tanking purely with rejuvs. All one really needs is enough life and damage mitigation to survive a damage spike and then a means to keep recovering life. Life leech is one of those ways aside from red pots and rejuvs. When good life leech is combined with solid damage mitigation one can become invincible.

It doesn't mean a damn thing just how high your life gets if you have to use pots all the time just to recover it if your leech is too weak. You'll just simply run out of pots too easily. In the test patch we already had someone with just some 4k life (which is pretty much blatantly too little to even consider LOS) zealer whoop hell andy. If paladin damage is actually really feeble then it will hurt their leech which can be a major force to be reckoned with.

2 points:

1. Why isn't charger among the paladin builds in your list? No love for chargers at all.. Especially not two handed ones.

2. Not everyone has the patience/resources/time to farm/get so many life charms. You *can* get more life than anyone else but that is only if you are fully twinked and farmed the shit out of the game. You need lots of time and commitment for that. I am not taking sides, I just want to point out that there are people not 1337 enough to get so much hp on a paladin. (l may be a noob, but my paladin has ~3k hp at lvl90).

Something's wrong with your paladin. Kevin's is tops of the fully uber twinked chars, yours show the bottom.

Neither make a point at all in this thread

_________________
"I am who I am. Your approval isn't needed"

I don't see how you managed that low amount of life on a Pally. Even without war or my life charms I still have 3.5k base with a 174 Base Str and 95 Base Dex.

_________________

its not because it isnt necessary I have never had an issue with low life on a pally.its just as dumb was just trying to reason with you.........

_________________
Practice safe trolling and be wary of spambots they have squaids.

You dont need to farm for lifecharms. Most of those were found while playing him (all he had to do was pick up stuff as he had no trashing ability). The others, I swapped with friends (a 15 life charm of mine for a 19 of theirs).

really, that pally is pretty standard, the only thing that might be considered expensive is war but everyone has one of those. Also, i don't farm for shit its boring. When you only play with 1-2 people, and you are the tank, you get all the good lifecharms.

_________________

Problem with the damage = life leech = tanking argument: All the really hard stuff is unleechable. Don't think there's really a solution either. I once gave everything minimum 5 drain effectiveness (if it was formerly unleechable, leech worked at 5% effectiveness instead), left everything else alone and people still complained.

That and there's a big difference between the first really meaningful boss... and the later ones.

You would be surprised how many 15+ life small charm you can find playing throught the game without being rushed. Guess I just like killing shit too much

_________________
Practice safe trolling and be wary of spambots they have squaids.

20hp scs and +15all res gcs drop in a4 norm.

So do 60 Mana 12 FHR charms o.O a4 Norm is a good farm for life and mana charms

_________________