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I believe it will add difficulty to any teams who dont have summons with them.

While I don't mind the suggestion, i'm not in full support of it either. I can take it or leave it. I've played through with and without oak before and you can make up for no oak simply by gearing more defensively and taking maybe a 5% drop in overall damage.
Its actually more fun to me with no lifbuffs as "Spike damage" is the stuff that keeps you on your toes and gets the heart racing.

On the flip side, many people play to win whareas I play for fun. My idea of fun is risk.

Ps, didnt vote as i'm not really fussed either way

any party/player that does not have an oak sage will not be affected by this. if difficulty is the goal if this change it seems to be the wrong approach. the only character this will nerf is the druid specifically, and any tank characters in his party. casters derive survival by not being hit at all so this will hardly affect them. the objective was to nerf specific casters and make the game harder. nerfing oak accomplishes neither.

any party/player that does not have an oak sage will not be affected by this.

if difficulty is the goal if this change it seems to be the wrong approach.

the only character this will nerf is the druid specifically, and any tank characters in his party.

casters derive survival by not being hit at all so this will hardly affect them.

the objective was to nerf specific casters and make the game harder. nerfing oak accomplishes neither.

It's to make the game a little harder for those who only focus on huge damage and balance overpowered builds. It will reduce the ability for druids to one point lycan and have uber damage. If lycan is a synergy to oak and adds 2% life to oak per level then you are back to orginal oak life levels and you have nerfed overpowered caster druids.

@ delta there is more to the game than fire druids. this nerf affects NON druid classes more than anything since all played druids except windy's (do ppl roll summoners now?) have lycan. rabies/melee/ele-melee/fire druids all have the option to max lycan.

Have fun in LoS with no more KB and 3% Oak. LOL

to elaborate, it will make things harder for the builds that already have it hard. I don't think those builds need another kick in the balls.

Summons to take all the hits... check.

Quote:

Summons to take all the hits... check.

Just clarification. Boss will switch to character as soon as there's any, in their melee range, player who actually deals damage. Only firestorm druids without armg spell are safe because they do no aggro to them. Melee chars are primary focus as soon as they start to hit anything(ask poison necs). Summons save ONLY casters/ranged chars. Your point is correct but still melee/close combat would suffer from this change.

Want some proof? Get windy druid to achmel(2nd baal wave), surround him with 5 wolfs 1 bear 4 blades and get close with hurricane activated, gl.

No i dont need "proof." I'm not here to argue, as I stated it was "IMHO" which im allowed my opinion I thought.

Author:	Pious [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	oak sage nerf
i'd like to iron out exactly what the community attitude is towards this issue. would also appreciate a 1-2 lane explanation as to why you chose yes or no.

Author:	Baerk [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Most casters hide behind summons in all likelyhood. While such a nerf might increase the difficulty of a caster soloing without summons it's going to punish the close range builds that actually need that life in the first place. Blue's explanation of "to increase life differential between melees and casters" is BS because with summons around the practical survival power is grossly in the caster's favor.

Author:	Steel [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
No. Will keep it simple. Builds that are already overpowered - casters/poison zons - have already good survivability skills: mana shield, dodge/avoid/perfection/strategy/long distance spells/recastable summons that allows them to minimize damage taken to small amounts. Reducing oak to 3% won't even affect these things Oak being one of 2 team hp buffs helps mostly chars that have to maintain high str for gear(druids/paladins/amazons/barbs), keep some dex and put rest into vita still being closecombat with almost no distraction skills. Bosses don't attack summons when chars are close, it's called aggro, so all counters/hits go directly to guys trying to do their job right.. So reducing oak to 3% makes things more complicated to chars that already have it difficult (getting pdr/mdr in gear, stacking res, high def, perf crafts, good jewels, etc). And these chars don't need it that hard. It's not like they're getting something in return as INC stamina isn't buffed to 6% (wowowow) or paladins have any life skills.

Author:	LockDown [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Steel pretty much hit the nail on the head with my opinions. If close combat characters were given a life buff increase to supplement the loss of Oak then it wouldn't hurt as bad. Classes like Pally's Melee Zon's and Sins will suffer. Barbs and Druids won't suffer as much as Barbs of course have BO and Inc stam while Druids are getting more lycan life.

Author:	Lee [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
It's the most idiotic way to make the game difficult. It's doing so by tedious means. It's adding unnecessary complications to an already complicated game that faces much more important issues. It reduces party playability with certain caster characters and pretty much cripples the wind druid. Any global nerf makes the game more 'difficult' technically. This global nerf takes away playability from already weakened classes especially melee. Long range casters may not be affected as much but now that blades/decoy are being nerfed and melee have to tank It's going to start adding a lot of issues. The oak also has lower life. Which means more recasting in boss fights oh by the way.. Have fun in LoS with no more KB and 3% Oak. LOL

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oak sage nerf http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4287	Page 1 of 1

Author:	PureRage-DoD [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
I believe it will add difficulty to any teams who dont have summons with them. While I don't mind the suggestion, i'm not in full support of it either. I can take it or leave it. I've played through with and without oak before and you can make up for no oak simply by gearing more defensively and taking maybe a 5% drop in overall damage. Its actually more fun to me with no lifbuffs as "Spike damage" is the stuff that keeps you on your toes and gets the heart racing. On the flip side, many people play to win whareas I play for fun. My idea of fun is risk. Ps, didnt vote as i'm not really fussed either way

Author:	JnDmX [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
In all seriousness.. If you want to "raise" the difficulty of HU then re add the minimum spawn.. Go back to 3 or even higher. The sc players aren't going to cry near as much as us HC players because Survivability doesn't matter the same. Fact is... Hu has never been "hard' by any gaming means. There are initial challenges but once your knowledge of HU becomes experienced those challenges cease. For example many noobie Hu gamers don't understand MDR and PDR and how crutial it can be on certain fights. If you are gonna nerf oak, you better be prepared to nerf BO. And +life charms and +life gear....Because less life... doesn't always mean harder hu.

Author:	Delta [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
PureRage-DoD wrote: I believe it will add difficulty to any teams who dont have summons with them. While I don't mind the suggestion, i'm not in full support of it either. I can take it or leave it. I've played through with and without oak before and you can make up for no oak simply by gearing more defensively and taking maybe a 5% drop in overall damage. Its actually more fun to me with no lifbuffs as "Spike damage" is the stuff that keeps you on your toes and gets the heart racing. On the flip side, many people play to win whareas I play for fun. My idea of fun is risk. Ps, didnt vote as i'm not really fussed either way I actually do think reducing oak is a good idea and will make pure damage builds like lee's druid a real risky undertaking. I think it should be a synergy of lycanthropy such that if you max lycanthropy you will get the 2% life back for oak. This will also encourage a build that maxes lycan...I mean seriously if you can one point it in hc and still have 20k life like Lee's fire druid then lycan is pretty worthless. Make it a necessity by making it a synergy to oak and the only way to regain the lost 2% from nerfing oak. This will also reduce the power of the gedden or valor runewords bc you will have to max lycan instead of another synergy. Thus saving those who have worked hard for zods and those runewords.

Author:	Pious [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
any party/player that does not have an oak sage will not be affected by this. if difficulty is the goal if this change it seems to be the wrong approach. the only character this will nerf is the druid specifically, and any tank characters in his party. casters derive survival by not being hit at all so this will hardly affect them. the objective was to nerf specific casters and make the game harder. nerfing oak accomplishes neither.

Author:	JnDmX [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Pious wrote: any party/player that does not have an oak sage will not be affected by this. if difficulty is the goal if this change it seems to be the wrong approach. the only character this will nerf is the druid specifically, and any tank characters in his party. casters derive survival by not being hit at all so this will hardly affect them. the objective was to nerf specific casters and make the game harder. nerfing oak accomplishes neither. I would think if nerfing casters was the idea then perhaps nerf BO? as most casters rely on BO for mana without the elite gear.

Author:	Delta [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Pious wrote: any party/player that does not have an oak sage will not be affected by this. True and if your party doesnt have oak then that will be challenging in of itself. Pious wrote: if difficulty is the goal if this change it seems to be the wrong approach. It's to make the game a little harder for those who only focus on huge damage and balance overpowered builds. It will reduce the ability for druids to one point lycan and have uber damage. If lycan is a synergy to oak and adds 2% life to oak per level then you are back to orginal oak life levels and you have nerfed overpowered caster druids. Pious wrote: the only character this will nerf is the druid specifically, and any tank characters in his party. not if lycan is a synergy of oak and adds 2% life per level. Then it doesnt change. It does require your "tank" to max lycanthropy. I mean isnt that what a tank druid should do?[/quote] Pious wrote: casters derive survival by not being hit at all so this will hardly affect them. It will affect them if they are playing with a druid that hasnt maxed lycan. because casters still get hit (leaving out zon bc of avoid). And with less life that will make casters rethink not putting points in defensive skills. Pious wrote: the objective was to nerf specific casters and make the game harder. nerfing oak accomplishes neither. How does it not nerf 1 point lycan all damage fire or cane druid builds? These are casters right? If you are a sorc or nec and you play with a druid in your party that isnt a tank w max lycan, how will the lower life from nerfed oak not make you more defensive make you want to put points in bone armor or frozen armor? Pious I respect you in this mod as a player and the experience you have. You are an amazing player, so please dont take my responses negatively. But even Kev says above that he thinks it would increase difficulty. I feel like you have your opinion of what needs to be done to fix the mod, and that your mind is set.

Author:	Abominae [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Voted no, for many reasons already stated. Mainly because its not a targeted nerf, and affects builds that should not be affected because they are already lack-luster while hardly affecting already powerhouse builds. EDIT: Delta wrote: It's to make the game a little harder for those who only focus on huge damage and balance overpowered builds. It will reduce the ability for druids to one point lycan and have uber damage. If lycan is a synergy to oak and adds 2% life to oak per level then you are back to orginal oak life levels and you have nerfed overpowered caster druids. This actually explains why this Oak Nerf is a bad change. If overpowered elemental druids are to blame, nerf them specifically, not the life of every class in the game. Not to mention, cries of OP elemental druids should calm down once Valor/Armageddon are fixed, as Windy's aren't great, AB/Hurri will be sub-par without Valor, and Firestorm will be returned to being a solid skill instead of an insane one.

Author:	Zikur [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
@ delta there is more to the game than fire druids. this nerf affects NON druid classes more than anything since all played druids except windy's (do ppl roll summoners now?) have lycan. rabies/melee/ele-melee/fire druids all have the option to max lycan.

Author:	Delta [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Zikur wrote: @ delta there is more to the game than fire druids. this nerf affects NON druid classes more than anything since all played druids except windy's (do ppl roll summoners now?) have lycan. rabies/melee/ele-melee/fire druids all have the option to max lycan. Doesn't matter either way. community voted no to the nerf, and I am all about the community choosing so its a dead subject really. Was more just stating my opinion.

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Author:	PureRage-DoD [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
to elaborate, it will make things harder for the builds that already have it hard. I don't think those builds need another kick in the balls.

Author:	kramuti [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
I am against this and the other controversial change. I have not (and will not) even argued against it from a balance point of view. Both go against fundamental design cohesiveness. (I did not vote, since my 1st issue is not dealing with balance). I won't post in the other poll just to repeat the statement.

Author:	Qwazym [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
i voted no in the view that it will nerf druids, nerfing the oak sage by a total of 40% (from the math 5 x 20 = 100 (100% = current) and 3x 20 = 60, meaning this will nerf if by 40%) and this will affect druids the most, BUT if you buff the druids in another way eg lycanthropy or more life / vit for druids without lycanthropy then this oak nerf would be an effective way of nerfing the team's tanks and keeping the druid as it is. hope this makes sense

Author:	PmP [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
will it balance builds? no? how can it? will it make the game more difficult? yes ofc (these polls are so biased and do not represent the truth) I think the effect is much more dramatic with the HC community. Lee wrote: Have fun in LoS with no more KB and 3% Oak. LOL i dont use oak or KB in my los runs. special tactics. you see. it's fine.

Author:	slappyNuts [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
balance builds? Yes and no. Some builds need nerfing (mostly casters/poison IMO), but I don't think oak is the way to do this. Add difficulty? certainly, for guys like my windy druid, but not for my bonernec I wouldn't be opposed to meeting halfway at 4%, though. Won't cry if its 3%, just will need to play more cautiously with said druid. EDIT: PureRage-DoD wrote: to elaborate, it will make things harder for the builds that already have it hard. I don't think those builds need another kick in the balls.

Author:	Kannli [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
i would also like to see bo have 5% a lvl and not the 3%

Author:	GameLucky21 [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
IMHO i do believe a nerf to Oak would help balance some things. I do however think the amount proposed was overkill. Like Soulmancer said, "...HU is very senseative to small changes and tweaks that can make one class or boss go from completely overpowered to completely useless." But I honestly think that druids (as a generality) are the most well-rounded chars and some of that has to do with Oak. Massive amounts of life... check. Massive amounts of damage... check. Summons to take all the hits... check. Not many chars can have all three of those aspects. Actually I cant think of any other that has all three to that extent. Of course i'm exaggerating a bit to make my point. And yes i'm aware that the damage comes largely from a few runewords that are being modified last I checked. Its obvious the way the majority of the community feels and thats what is most important. But lets try to be objective about all the changes. Thats all im saying. Thanks for reading my opinion (if you actually did that is)

Author:	Steel [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Quote: Summons to take all the hits... check. Just clarification. Boss will switch to character as soon as there's any, in their melee range, player who actually deals damage. Only firestorm druids without armg spell are safe because they do no aggro to them. Melee chars are primary focus as soon as they start to hit anything(ask poison necs). Summons save ONLY casters/ranged chars. Your point is correct but still melee/close combat would suffer from this change. Want some proof? Get windy druid to achmel(2nd baal wave), surround him with 5 wolfs 1 bear 4 blades and get close with hurricane activated, gl.

Author:	GameLucky21 [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Steel wrote: Quote: Summons to take all the hits... check. Just clarification. Boss will switch to character as soon as there's any, in their melee range, player who actually deals damage. Only firestorm druids without armg spell are safe because they do no aggro to them. Melee chars are primary focus as soon as they start to hit anything(ask poison necs). Summons save ONLY casters/ranged chars. Your point is correct but still melee/close combat would suffer from this change. Want some proof? Get windy druid to achmel(2nd baal wave), surround him with 5 wolfs 1 bear 4 blades and get close with hurricane activated, gl. No i dont need "proof." I'm not here to argue, as I stated it was "IMHO" which im allowed my opinion I thought. You sir are correct and im not saying you are not. Just thought I'd voice my opinion on these forums. So sorry. Have a great day!

Author:	Asteroth [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
I said no.. Reason is that oak is a party friendly sage ...Ya its life is great but thats the point of party and builds that work together.. Nerfing this will not balance this game what so ever.. The start of balance begins when casters and melee are on the same playing field... Till then there won't be any balance.. Example.. Psn Zon - psn necro ... Psn zon hits all the time with her poons ..Necro has to go in close to hit and can't hit shit but has that same dmg.. Thats balance ..

Author:	Steel [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: oak sage nerf
Quote: No i dont need "proof." I'm not here to argue, as I stated it was "IMHO" which im allowed my opinion I thought. You got me wrong. Didn't mean to nuke your opinion. Just wanted to point that summons don't take all damage. Your point is still good. I only quoted that part.