i'd like to iron out exactly what the community attitude is towards this issue. would also appreciate a 1-2 lane explanation as to why you chose yes or no.

I thought blue even admitted to the fact that it's a blanket measure for the actual problems. As far as I'm concerned it's half-***ed modding to be modding blanket measures instead of actually addressing the actual problems directly.

To fix the problem mainly we have to look at the end game weapons for Hdins Zealers and every other build. Astreon's tries to be too many things at once and this detracts from it being an answer like the other 95 weapons. It's a truly a Jack of all Trades Master of None. The high requirement's really hurt HDins. However giving them an extra point won't fix the problems they have. Giving the auras passives like Kevin suggested would fix a lot of melee zealers problems giving them crit and leech. We could also take this further having Concentration or Holy Shield give a life boost per hard point among other things.

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Main issue about paladins have:
Hammerdins don't ignore magic res as before so they need now to gear as a caster still being able to achive 30% of last ladder dmg
Melee don't do damage so can't leech anything back.
All scepters are for some reason uber heavy while only paladins find them attractive.
6 point doesn't address this by any chance. Guys will go more vita hoping they will survive more but it won't happen.

No. The paladins face overall playability issues. Addin an extra stat point doesn't change the fact that the only current playable paladin build is a healer. I've yet to see any other paladin other than ones with Valor/Armageddon which are only viable because of Valor/Armageddon.

Even after being proved wrong regarding paladin block by Abominae with gear Blue still felt by some idiotic means that paladins still needed that extra stat point. This stat point doesn't fix any core issue regarding the paladin. It simply gives the character with the highest end game life more life essentially. Pretty fucking stupid eh?

So have fun rolling around with more life on a healer.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

no. certainly not for the most party friendly char available.

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I think the first initial change to Paladins should be FoH... For the final skill in the "magic" tree its awfully weak late. Especially for a single target cast spell. And it's mana cost is just horrid. I think the bolts that radiate out need to be an element of some kind. Perhaps lightning? Obviously u cant change FoH to elemental dmg bolt at all because of conviction's power. But the bolts that spawn out of the inital blast could be something elemental..

Max Sanc Foh and Synergy's With Heavens Will Clear RoS faster than anything outside of a stacked dexzon with sanc armor.

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True.. But tell me how it stacks up in Tundra? or any non "undead' area. Giving it an elemental dmg brings it back into the range of a sorc. In reality, your giving me 1 specific end game area.. Where i can give you more for any other "caster" tree.

Actually FOH does have an element on its bolts that spray out... magic damage. It's just magic damage that will only harm undead just like holy bolt. Changing the element won't help unless the skill's targeting/hit functions are changed.

Now you are just arguing semantics... Obviously it is an elemental attack. Im just saying give it overall use as opposed to just undead.

15k top end with 13k bolts... Could we possibly... make the bolts hit non-undeads? I'm not sure if we can without making holy bolt do the same.

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Im 100% sure you can if you modify the spell to a non holy bolt attack.

yes you can, its a very simple change too. (1 number in 1 column needs to be removed)

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it is possible to change it with out affecting holy bolt and i have posted how to do this on the keep. if who ever is modding this patch wants to do this i will gladly share.

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Practice safe trolling and be wary of spambots they have squaids.

weren't these missile bolts a little complicated to change? not hardcoded but linked directly to right ID in missiles.txt? FoH damage could get some boost. Guys on realm told they had 15k foh/42hammers with end game gear. Little disproportion for these too.
edit: Dew, ah cool, could be nice addition.

the only thing i look at about changing it tho is if you buff the damage and cause it to also damage all monsters where would this leave hammerdins then? that and do we really want to give healers that much offense? kinda double edged sword on this one.

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Practice safe trolling and be wary of spambots they have squaids.

My other suggestion for a paly is to give % per hard skill points in their melee attacks. For example give CB on Sacrifice per hard point. so maybe .5 per 1 hard point? Equalling to 10 % CB on a max'd Sacrifice.. He doesnt have to use skill but definitely gives a reason to max otherwise useless skill.

Then my suggestion is to make a healer require more skill pnts. Maybe make a healer an 80 pnt base tree. That way you cant be a dps'r AND a healer in the same toon.

shame the holy column dont accept calcs . then you could use a conditional that would make the bolts hit all enemys only if you didnt have a point in prayer.

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That would be nice ... My suggestion is to take the synergy from Holy Bolt off FoH.. And to remake Hammer in a single target version of FoH. (Ala single bolt).

Im full of ideas on the paly Thorns needs to be removed completely.. Maybe put in an aura that gives synergy in place of Holy bolt. Thorns doesnt work with alot of the ideas implemented in HU anyway... It gives no synergy to anything and really isn't usable.

thorns, lol. switch it to return flat damage would be ok with me. At least you could control and scale it against monster hp that way.

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My perspective on paladins:

Pros-
-Easiest class to achieve MB
-4 health per vita (afaik, correct me if this is wrong)
-Great party char

Cons-
-Some items have really high str reqs (182 ele weaver, 190 ironward, etc)
-HDins apparently don't do amazing dmg (just hear-say, haven't tried one)
-Outside of FoH, Hammers, Bolts, and AoE proc of holy auras, Palli's are melee

So in my opinion, 6 points per lvl will alleviate the first con I mentioned, and put it in the pro section. Healers are fine already. However, the melee Palis will not have their main issues addressed (I don't think I need to elaborate there?).

Hence: No. 6 point pallis does not sound like balance to me

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Thorns are hard to control in both ways.hp gain goes unproportionally higher to %ed gain per more players (6% or 8% ed vs 100% then 50% etc hp)and flat damage could be either OP in 2 ppl games and useless in bigger parties.
Any good func to change % to flat? or by extra calc.

Unless the straight damage returned cant be scaled by their own personal resistance I still think its useless.

Could remove the holybolt syn from foh and give it another syn from another skill to make it viable. Maybe even chage the cel file to so it isn't releasing bolts.

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Practice safe trolling and be wary of spambots they have squaids.

go ahead and elaborate

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Thanks for taking a look blue. Let me know your opinion on my suggestions.

Hi Blue,

I meant that they face the same problems as the rest of melee as a whole, which supposedly is being addressed in the upcoming patch. There are several threads you can refer to where that was discussed to death.

EDIT: it would make for an interesting str palli with maul, or dex bowadin, though lol

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This change is far too broad considering the problems with the paladin are extremely specific and related to the zealer/hammerdins damage.

True and what i proposed was add a % of CB per hard point into sacrifice or even Zeal... Say .5 % per 1 hard point. That gives them a bit of an edge I would think. As far as hammerdins... The only suggestion i can make itemize a few higher items with it in mind.. But even then..

Voted no.

Voted no. Everyone is just gona dump that extra point in to vitality

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Its always in the last place you look....

I like that zeal idea. Could replace the CB with deadly strike if it was felt too strong. Zeal could do with a buff to its base ED/AR as well. Anything really to help that poor skill.

Lmao I think you all know my vote..

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P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

it will make people feel better about putting 100's of pts into str and dex, but that wont change anything really.

maybe zeal should add a small amount of flat ar. will help the holy arua zealots, and classes that use O skill zeal.

Actually the zeal bug (you miss once and you miss for the rest of the attack cycle) pretty makes it so you need at least 3x the AR to have the same actual hit chance as other builds. Zeal may be a very fast attack but if you aren't good on AR the whiff factor could prove crippling.

Correct, which is why i needs a flat AR amount added to the initial skill. However i still feel either deadly strike or CB should be added as a passive for hard points.

this thread is nul. the 6 stat pally change will not take effect.

You sir are correct Howver some good ideas have been thrown around on this topic as to how to fix em

6 points pally are a moot point as I see em. If you want to create more healthy chars, give them "+4 life per point of vita" ( 25% extra base life from vita, not even total life, looks correct ) instead of giving them just extra 100 stat points, which in my opinion would go almost all in vita, and the rest in STR, so you can freely mule those stupid STR and DEX charms for gearing purposes, and pump even more your hp with life charms ( that doesnt look correct )

My vote is: no. And I'm talking from a HC non uber-pro-HU-gamer.

this version is a no-no. One has to be blind ( or blatantly stupid for that matters) to not see it



R U zure bout dad? Because I'm certainly not.

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"I am who I am. Your approval isn't needed"