So blue has shown no sign that he is coming back anytime soon. His obvious frustration with the community was serious. I've tried to PM him and have got no reply. I don't know if anyone else has tried to either. As a community.. we do have a few options. We can sit around and wait for nothing to happen or we can take a vote and do something.

I'm not stating that this is a official poll or that whatever is voted will happen. The point of this poll is to see where the community stands and what we want to do. After that.. how to go about it will be the obstacle. It may be difficult or it may be easy.

Something that most of us can agree is that the current system Blue has set up has obviously failed ( Him as the modder ). Where is he now? Anyway. Here a few options I've proposed on what to do next.

The first option is to wait for Blue to come back and drop the patch. Maybe he is working on it as I speak, maybe not. He could have plans to come back or maybe not. Voting for this suggests your willing to wait for Blue.

The second option is we take Blues advice. We build a community patch based off Blues initial changes and we vote on the Oak + Stat points to paladins. PureRage edits the patch and we take a community vote. After all.. we are simply taking Blues advice. There should be no problem in that. Voting for this is agreeing on a community patch and getting Kevin to edit the txts for us. Getting Kevin to do this may be an obstacle... I'm not sure but I don't think it would be such a major issue as Blue already stated to build our own patch.

The third option is we get ahold of Mancer by sending a PM or reaching him somehow and we go back to his original patch with seasonal resets probably. If he can't be reached and he might not be able to reached then option 1 or 2 is probably the best. I haven't seen a post from him here in awhile. Voting for this is going back to the original patch last ladder where mancer left it at.

As I've stated above.. nothing is official but everyone knows the real power is in the community as a whole. We can decide the future of HU together. Post your opinions and vote. Let's try to keep this drama free in hopes of finding a solution for the future.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Hey Lee, props for the initiative. I was thinking of doing something similar if we didn't get any update from Blue soon.

If Blue is indeed working on the patch as I assume he is, I would vote number 1. If not, I'd vote number 2. Can't vote though til I know

_________________

Don't know if he is. I'd assume he isn't based on what he's last said. "I'll continue to leave you in peace, go build your own patch etc." That doesn't leave me with a positive feeling. Maybe this thread will issue a reply from him, we'll see. Point is to figure out a future for HU.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

I'm feeling exactly the same.

_________________
Its always in the last place you look....

absolutely. Props for taking the initiative here as I would definitely like to see HU keep going forward and I think we have enough capable people here to edit some text files if need be.

_________________

Kevin would edit the files. We'd just agree on it as a community until someone has a permanent solution for HU. If Mancer is around and be reached well then he can intervene and lay the hammer on what's to be done. Hopefully either he intervenes or Blues come back willing to bargain again.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Depends on two things in all honesty. Will Blue come back and Will Kevin be willing to do this as we all know he's pretty busy with his own mod. I really would need to know the answer to those questions to be even begin thinking about it,

_________________

Depends how much you want changed. If there is a comprehensive list of exact changes i'd maybe have the time. It would have to be a complete list and all decided. At most I could dedicate 2 days to it. Can make a LOT of changes in that time as long as there is an exact list to work from.

Wouldn't do any item edits though, i hate that shit.

Edit: voted #1, #3 second choice purely because #2 cuts into my own stuff sry . If you do decide #2 i'll go with it though.

_________________

i took Blue's statement as more as if you (community) wants to do it, then I will leave you be. He did not say he was just bailing on the whole show. He has real life stuff to do too, right? A week or so does not worry me really. If it starts to get to three...well then we should then figure out what to do...i think this is a bit premature to discuss, but maybe my recollection is faulty.

That aside, if it was to be done for like a Monday or a Tuesday, I could do item things if need be. Like Kev said, it needs to be an itemized list that most agree on. I finally got an mpq editor and whatnot again on this machine...there are some things that need fixed in there anyway (mainly skills that won't proc...somebody should make a list of these).

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

If we can come up with a list and since Kevin IS willing to do it gonna vote #2.

_________________

I voted for two due to the fact that I sent the most compromising e-mail to Blue and got no response. That led me to believe he's not building a patch or coming back anytime soon. I think since Kevin is willing to do it that's the best option at this point. The 3rd option is alright as well but the issue is getting a hold of mancer. I haven't seen him post on here in ages.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Would probably have to e-mail him and beg

_________________

I may send Mancer an e-mail hoping for a response but nothing is promised regarding a reply. I'm sure if several of us started sending PMs he'd definitely step in and say something.. so we the option for mass PMing mancer is up as well.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

would he get pissed at mass pm's?

also since we're making a list, can we also work on a trade list with prices on stuff such as lore/darkforge? i only ask because i've been looking for one for my friend for age and no one wants to trade theirs

_________________
I do not like green eggs and ham!

what does the price of lore have to do with a patch.
I would think that if they don't want to trade it either they need it or you don't have/are not offering what they want.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

who are not looking for em?

Been looking for Dhorn and Dforge for a month now =)
And i dont think items are the prio right now lol

This isn't nearly as important

_________________

Yeah as far as the trading prices.. there are bigger issues at hand. We have to figure out what's happening next. A lot of us were looking forward to a new patch. A huge disappoint hit us and now it's the time to figure out what future we want as a community. We can worry about trading prices later.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Voted #3, with the assumption that #2 means we'd be basing it off this current patch. Honestly, if you want to truly fix the mod from the current patch, it's going to take a ton of work. You'd pretty much have to do what Blue has done, but triple that to tackle all the necessary issues to return HU to its previous level of balance.

If option #2 is the solution though, I'd much rather see it built using last patch as the base. The previous patch had none of the insane balance issues we see right now and is a much better platform to go by than this current one. I'm just hesitant to see more work done to Blue's patch, as it already has so many issues to fix, balance, and decide on versus Soulmancer's last patch.

_________________
A Lannister always pays his debts.

good thread finally , no matter what happens something is gonna happen and i like that after all..

my primary wishes would be to see conviction lower res and amp restored along with crushing blow and deadly strike somewhat halved but not entirely removed as of now. also the change to mindsins would make them work .
have a good day all

_________________
'may the force be with you' - Yoda??

Soulmancers forums email is long time not active, anyone who tried to contact him knows that.

I voted 1. no need to change directions everytime something doesn't go as we think it should.
Blue's probably on vacations.

Someone told me he had logged in yesterday. I don't know how accurate that is though. Good to hear everyone's opinions.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

just check his forum profile and you see the last time he logged in. He has logged in every day since he wrote that post about leaving the forums.
last time he logged in was: Last visited: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:56 am

_________________
Its always in the last place you look....

Supposedly blue has built the patch and sent Kevin a pm last night. That's what I've heard just now. Let's see what happens.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Things always goes well for good boys

I voted wait for blue - MOST things in the new patch looked good and closer to getting things balanced. And blue is good with things like item editing etc in terms of detail!

Just gotta hope for his return!

_________________
Trolling LockDown since 14/01/2012.

thumbs up!

Every hell unleashed player in the last 5 years cannot argue with this:Soulmancer's versions are superior.Soulmancer is the creator of this game and his game rules, his game kept diablo 2 alive for me.Last version is just boring and needs so much things to fix.No offense Blue, you only tried to change this awesome game, but it's very hard.

_________________
Out of darkness, out of mind,
Cast down into the Halls of the Blind.

What changes specifically would you guys implement for a community patch?

I personally would like to remove counters, it is a good idea but it makes tons of builds useless against bosses. I miss my cs zon, zealers, and fo sorce to name a few. but at the same time, would this make bosses too easy?

I know that melee is broken, how would you fix this to keep the game difficult? Making melee do tons of damage with tons of life leech would make them invincible, and more OP then most of the builds today.

anyone wanna compile a list of suggested changes? Maybe that can be a templet for the next major patch and reset.

?? cs still destroys bosses. zeal never suffered from counters, shield +3x ele gems and you're ready to tank everything, if you have enough LL.

how is ll working on hell bosses atm?

you're schizophrenic so no discussion with you.

looks like blue is still working on the patch:
http://www.mrfixitonline.com/viewtopic. ... 7794636a1c

posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:57 am

_________________
I need more Dropbox space, pls register using this referal link, so you and me get 500mb more space:
http://db.tt/sbpJWYD1

This isn't a COUNTER problem that's a phys res and drain effect problem. The two are not related.

_________________

[x] switch to an FPS.

Well then there's two indications that he's working on a patch. Let's see how it turns out then.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

counters cause damage which kills you. the solution proposed was life leech, which does not work. ???

Seems like Blue has more support than I thought though the last two options combine for 60% - 40% is still a big number of support for Blue and it leads over all. Surprised actually.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

I feel like we need a community voting system to really allow the community to choose things. I feel like a lot of people have their own interests at heart when they suggest things. What should happen is there should be a community vote on each item of blue's proposed patch changes. That is truly letting the community decide. If people vote against something they should offer up a different solution, if there are more disagreements (with suggestions) on one of blue's patch changes, then we should vote on the solutions offered with Blue and Kev weeding out solutions that aren't practical to implement (unless you want to prove they are practical by testing your theory with a text file or something that people can try out).

This kind of system, I believe, will Truly allow the community to decide patch changes with the modders being a reference as to the practicality of those changes. This will take all the pressure and negativity off of Blue or Kev and that way modders don't just decide unless the community votes. As well as if something gets fucked up or off-balance, we as the community take the blame and hold ourselves responsible to suggesting ways to fix it. And for those that really want certain changes, they can garnish community support by explaining, testing, and showing the community why their change is good. If they get the votes then changes get implemented. Everything should be done through a community vote end of story.

You can stand in front of a boss and still die without counters. The bosses without phys res problems are leechable and zealers can leech through the damage with enough leech.

Off-topic but anyways true I like the idea as it will take a lot of the criticism off of one person and help out with a lot of the testing to make sure it works.

_________________

I voted # 3 reason .. We can always jack the diffaculty up to 3 or 4 spawn to make the game more like it use to be in 08 when Terry did that back then .. Only things that would need fixing would be tp's and some builds that need to be worked out to be more usefull such as Mental sins ... Make the skill charms in that patch lvl 90..And add some of the newest runewords..

The old patch might still be on Fileplanet ...I will post later if it still is hanging up there...
Ya just looked it up no go... I might have it burned on a disc from when I needed to redo my comp last year.. If I find it I will let you guys know cheers..

_________________
P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

And why is that? While I disagree with Oak changes I think that Blue should implement what he thinks it's the right thing to do, because he can/he was allowed to. That doesn't mean he's doing all things just to piss us off. Voting on every bullshit is moving us nowhere really. If he fail then we can stop playing this mod, it's obvious, but it's better to have 1 person in control than newbies voting for biggest OP.

And I don't think that polls are useless. They give some insight how community feels about things. Said it many times before, community overslept when most of controversial changes were pushed (amp lowered, deadly lowered, cb removed, res from melee gear lowered below casters level) and were bitching about skill charms that no one even misses now.

If that's the case why would you have wasted so much time bitterly arguing with him? You don't even make sense. You expressed as much disregard for the Oak change as many others.. and you attempted to convince Blue otherwise. If you truly felt Blue should do whatever he wants you would have never argued against his opinion.

Of course he's not trying to piss anyone off but good intentions don't always give good results. That is a simple fact. While Blue continues to make good changes.. he is still making terribly bad ones. The Oak is a prime example of that. If he faces no opposition then he will gladly continue to make changes of that nature.

The community fired back hard on the Oak nerf he suggested and what was the result? The consequences are obvious. He had no desire to even be on the forums due to the negativity. The point.. it had an effect. Had no one said anything or spoke how they felt then we'd be in a different boat now.

There is no good in having power if you're hated and the thing your trying to build crumbles to pieces. The whole point though is that your idea of Blue should do whatever he wants because he has the power is quite an ignorant thing to say and even hypocritical compared to what you've said previously.

Remember this one thing. Blue didn't create HU. Terry created it. He may have the power to edit the mod but he doesn't own any right to it. With that being said.. the community should have just as much say in what Blue edits as Blue does. Why? Well simply because as I stated before he didn't CREATE hu.

Ultimately.. the goal is to work together and compromise to effectively balance the game.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

IMO roll back to the last patch, and fuck blue, I'm not wasting my time dealing with some ignorant fat fuck.

He's proven he's incapable of normal social behavior, so fuck him, bring us a patch where there was more then 5 viable builds.

_________________

There's a big difference between suggesting things and voting for them. Soulmancer built this mod on ppl ideas. Many helped him but in the end it was his work. Many guys left, many stayed. Now what right do we have to call it community mod when he passed keys to the mod to Blue? Blue should listed to ppl but if he choose what he wants its done. You think you could argue with SM? Ever read old forums and shitstorm he was taking for many things? Prolly yes.
Look at other changes Blue posted, maybe they are not everything we would want to see but changing crafts, lowering boss res, increasing CB etc. is based on what guys here were saying. Or maybe he played for 6 months and came to these conclusions.
And he allowed Blue to implement changes, not some random guys aka community vote.

BTW. this poll. even if it has 100% "let's do new patch" then what? Think that SM will come here and say "yes" or Duffbeer will accept it? Who will make a changelog and do edits? Another 6 months. It's funny some ppl don't even realize it's not like that "let's do an update".

I don't agree with Blue on many things, like I don't agree how Soulmancer turned some changes over the years.

then stop complaining and ask for the patch to be released.



Power to edit the mod on the realm is the rights to the mod.....



I never thought oak should be changed, however I have no complaints that blue wants to nerf oak. it is not that big of a deal. why prevent moving forward over something that will not break the game. you dont need oak to kill shit.

You keep saying "the community the community the community" FYI, you are not the community. Based on the current results, the community wants the new patch to come out.

This poll is terrible as it is a bit biased as well. The first two indicate that we take the current patch forward, and the third indicates that we revert. If the third option is 40% and the other two are 30%, that would still mean 60% of the people would not like to revert, but rather move on.

The option of moving this patch forward is split between two choices, and the poll makes it look like more people want to revert than there really are.


So at the moment, 70% say no revert and 30% say revert. I think this should be separated into two polls to be more accurate.



Should we

Revert

take new patch forward




then

if we take thew new patch forward should we,

wait for blue to drop the next patch

make our own patch



it appears at this time the obvious choice is to move forward and to wait for blue. one person flaming everyone else does not make their opinion the majority. Not to mention a lot of the people playing the game are not on the forums.

Blue has not done anything wrong. He made a patch in order to move this mod forward. it turned out bad for melee. He acknowledged this and is attempting to fix this. I see no mistakes from blue.

I do not agree 100% with the new patch, and I don't expect anyone else too. However the patch is a step in the right direction, thus we should release it. IF it does not work out, it can easily be modified to make it work.

I think as a community, we need to tell blue : "I don't agree 100% with your patch, no one will, however it is a step in the right direction and we approve you and your patch. Thank you for your continued time and support as it is much appreciated."

and some people who just flame others, and think their ideas are #1 for everyone, need to apologize for being ignorant. Flaming others are NOT valid arguments and have no weight in debate. - try going to court to fight a speeding ticket and say "I dont need to have a speeding ticket because the officer is a fat fucking cunt who rapes his mom in the ass to get off." or some other 12 year old rant

Your opinion is valued.

_________________

He changed all uniqs/crafts, some were based on community opinion but most on his own. For example he wanted chars to have harder time getting res but it turned only a hit for melee(wow again) as being 2 hander closecombat you obviously have lower res than users with shield + diamonds in it. He made many mistakes while balancing items.

Stop pretending you know something what happened here, or what he did/didn't.

Biggest ignorant is you, posting in oak thread where everyone were saying about close combat you were about your bone nec and stuff about chars you didn't even played.

Ur blind my friend and, the only part wich i agree with is the oak shit.

Everyone keeps saying the new server side update well be a "step-forward", that I can't deny. Too bad we took five steps backwards before hand, so what we're left with is a patch that's still four steps backwards.

People have a right to be upset when the mod is in utter shambles, and the next patch won't even fix half the core issues that put it in this place. Do we really have to wait 3 more years to have patch that has a semblance of balance to it?

Eh, whatever. I'm not sure why anyone here is discussing anything. It's extremely futile. Blue has this mod by the balls and will continue to work on it and continue to implement crappy, inexperienced changes that will blow up in his face. If you haven't noticed by the 6 stat Paladin changes, no matter if Blue is proved blatantly wrong, if he wants to implement a change, no matter how shitty, he'll do it.

_________________
A Lannister always pays his debts.

There is no validity or sense in most of what you say PmP. You are by far one of the biggest idiots on this forum, period. Your reputation has already been shattered when you attempted to come into a discussion talking about something way irrelevant and ranted on. Why you still come around and try to talk big.. to me is funny because every reply you get is going to be embarrassing and worse for you.

First of all, what you quoted and your response to it makes no SENSE at all.

The ultimate goal is to compromise.. so I should stop complaining and ask for the patch to be released? Are you stupid? Why would you quote that and reason on it by saying "stop complaining and ask for the patch to be released." There was no compromising in the patch. You make no sense.. you just sound stupid. If I were to stop complaining and ask for the patch to be released it would be the opposite of what you quoted. -1 for PmP


Second, the power to edit the mod and owning rights to it are completely different. Owning rights to it would mean he could do much more than simply edit it. Mancer never said "Here you go Blue, take my Mod, take my forum and my community and years of hardwork." He allowed Blue to edit what he built. It is still technically Mancer's mod. If he wanted to stop Blue today he could. He was granted the power to edit by the person who owns rights to the mod. -2 PmP

Third, your point on Oak is a null one. We already bashed you several times in the suggestion forum and proved you wrong blatantly. You had no response or reply to the harshest of arguments against you which also is a silent utter of defeat. Trying to bring the Oak argument up again after you had your ass handed to you and walked away without a word is pretty pathetic if I'd say so myself. If you want to argue about Oak again feel free to go back to the same thread to again.

As far as the community goes. The poll shows that most people don't want to wait for Blue but would rather build a patch or revert back to mancers. Your simple math is fucked up and your psychopathic assumption of what you think people want is pretty childish.

How is the poll bias? Your such a retard.. it's not even funny. The poll isn't bias at all. The poll suggest the ONLY three possible options for the future of the community. Your making a half assed assertion in assuming the people who voted for Option 2 did so because they simply wanted to "move forward." Who the fuck are you again? You can read peoples minds? How do you know what those people wanted. Many may have not wanted Blue to come back or harshly disagree with Blues changes but still want new content. Yes.. that means moving forward but in the way you suggest. The poll isn't bias.

I'm one person? Apparently there was enough "negativity" for Blue to call it quits on the forum. Again.. your half assed stupid assertions biting you in the ass again. I can't be the only one who thinks you fall into the 10-12 year old age bracket.

This poll had a huge turnout. A big portion of the active community voted. It has significant meaning. I hardly see more than 60 users online at a time anymore.

"Blue has not done anything wrong. He made a patch in order to move this mod forward. it turned out bad for melee. He acknowledged this and is attempting to fix this. I see no mistakes from blue. "

Again.. PmP you are like.. at what? -10 now? Don't bother replying to this post, seriously. You are just putting your already battered reputation deeper into the ground. By saying Blue has done nothing wrong while acknowledging he fucked up melees and then saying "I see no mistakes from blue" make you sound far beyond stupid. You acknowledge he made a huge mistake with melees and then you say "I see no mistakes." Doesn't it make perfect sense to say.. "Blue made mistakes but he's trying to fix them now."

We aren't talking about little mistakes here. We are talking about the entire melee class being completely shit here. These are big "mistakes."

Your getting flamed because you sound very stupid. If you've noticed.. I don't flame anyone else on here but YOU. No one else on here do I FLAME but YOU. That should tell you something about yourself.

If you continue to post this kind of stupid shit.. your going to get the same response.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

And these poll numbers seem strangely high in comparison to the people who post here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone was making accounts voting.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

theres only 37 votes and its pretty much split 3 ways (ie if any 2 were to be combined, the 3rd would be outvoted.

Think of it like a bus whare all people getting on to the bus have a steering wheel. The majority of the people turning the same way will turn the bus

All goes fine, until they hit a roundabout (dont think those are common in the US are they?) with 3 exits.
43% of the passengers turn the wheel at the first exit, but 57% dont, so the bus continues
22% of the passengers want to take the next exit, but 78% dont so the bus continues
35% of the passengers want to take the third exit but 65% dont, so now it continues back to the first exit.
and the process repeats itself for eternity.

In that way, a poll with more than 2 options is almost always doomed to fail
The UK had that problem with the last ellections. it was a 3 way split (meaning frankly that nobody was happy with the choices and the folks running for power should all have been sacked to make way for better policys). Then 2 came together to make a larger party and ended up with policys none of the partys wanted and none of the people wanted.

As Much as I don't like it, comunity consensus will never rule because it is flawed at it's very core.

_________________

It depends.. on a community this size a 3 way poll is not such a big issue. On a entire population I can see the difference... but this poll probably won't break the 50 vote margin even. A simple discussion would be enough to figure out which option is the 3rd string. I do agree with you though.. a two option poll would have been better, however, there was a 3rd option in this scenario so it had to be added.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Well considering the vocal posters against blue are 5-6 people on this board. 13 votes to going back to the previous patch is rather huge. I'm rather shocked that there are 36 people who actually read and participate in these forums still. I wouldn't be surprised if blue has been creating a few accounts.

Tinfoil hat?

_________________

can't have all chiefs and no indians. its that simple.

i am amazed blue is as kind as he is. if i were in his shoes i'd have pushed ignore button on 99% of forum posters and talk to people in game instead. i don't envy blue's position by any means. he gets some of the credit for doing most of the work and gets all of the blame for it. while i don't agree with some of the changes blue has made, the only one i would really slam him for is the armageddon/valor rws and that is because they made certain builds more OP than many of the previous season's OP builds.

with all this complaining it makes me wonder if people want a more challenging mod or an easier one. the last thing i would want to see is blue listen to some people and make the mod easier than it was before. it is unfortunate that some aspects of the game got easier this patch but i can assure anyone that the whole intent of this ladder patch was to make things harder. its not blue's fault the antirush could be circumvented, that bosses dont have working psn sorbs, or that decoys and blades can tank hell bosses.

i hope some players can relax a little and just play. blue is trying to make changes that make the game a bit harder in some ways. while we can fantasize about the good ol days of ci 2h melees and hammerdins things have become harder and its for the better. at the very least that is something i can agree with.

They only place I can say that has them 100% would be Washington D.C. and that's because of the designer back in the day. (1796 day)

_________________

There's a new roundabout here that leads to another roundabout. We have some of the worst city planners in Norther America here.

"The Magic Roundabout" in Swindon
At least they have road markings unlike the ones around whare I live

_________________

I can't count the numbers of times where I said.. "Blue I appreciate all the hard you do." Making the game difficult is not a big problem but to what extent and how far? Blue keeps adding on adding. Stre nerf. Res/Abs nerf. Ds nerf. Oak nerf. Let's compile all of blues nerfs on top of each other and see where it goes. If he continues this process the game becomes Aftermath essentially. More and more builds come less playable and there's fun in that? How many melees did you see strolling around this ladder that were useful? How much has your barb done since you've hit 95+?

Yeah it's not Blues fault, your right. It will be his fault when he fixes blades/decoy and fails to implement anything else in return. Who's going to tank these bosses without summons? What melee can tank any IM boss without being a statue? There are bigger issues that have been addressed and Blue ignores them. Adding six stat points to paladins while they are still useless isn't going to do shit.

I don't know if I want an easier mod. I just want a sensible level of balance and playable builds. Nothing wrong in that.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

That looks confusing as all get out

_________________

About the chief and indian thing I will say this though.

You can't have one chief who does whatever the fuck he wants while ignoring the sensible and reasonable advice the indians are giving him. If the chief continues to do so he won't wake up to see his head on much longer. The chief has to compromise to save his life and tribe because two things can only happen with unhappy indians. They do a rain dance after they cut your head off or they settle to a new location. Baerk illustrated that with his aftermath comparison.

Happy Indians makes a happy tribe.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

busses... roundabouts... indians... what were we talking about again?

PureRage wins the analogy contest! *waits for Pious' rebuttal*

_________________

I think we were talking about how indians were going to use busses to drive us in circles to get us confused so they could take over the America's again!! Devious.

As far as arguing for/against oak/6statpoint pallies, both go directly against sensible design philosophy. Period. I could give a shit less about balance when design becomes irrelevant. If design gets tossed out for some quirky 'fix', Then the 'fix' is not properly aimed at the problem. It's like expecting a painkiller to cure a disease.

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

Thank you Blue for taking the time and try your best to make a new and better patch for us

Waits for pious rebuttal? Wtf u talking abt slappy. No need to rebuttal what I said. It's just opinion based anyway. Pious knows I have respect for him as a player. He knows far more than I do and I play with the guy. We just have different opinions when it comes to blue.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

How'd you know our plan

_________________

Lol @ Kramuti

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

It just seemed sensible at the time?

_________________
The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

Yo Lee you misunderstood. I was joking about the analogies that were being made(PureRage made 2 (busses then roundabouts), Pious made 1 (indians)




lmao

_________________

Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 out this year are likely going to cause an exodus of players anyway. Besides I'll be modding one of those two games if not both. I have projects in mind for the future, D2: Hell Unleashed is in the hands of the community.

I too voted #3 for the simple fact it had much better overall balance. If option #2 is used I would like to see 1.21 used as the basis and smaller more manageable adjustments made from there.

Personally many of the proposed changes to this patch left me a feeling of deja vu. I do agree we needed changes to make phys chars playable again, and liked some of it. There were a few areas that were headed the wrong way imo.

_________________
"The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits" Albert Einstein

Mancer makes a good point. HU probably won't last too much longer as it is. StarCraft one was better than the second but SC1 still ended up dying. The same will happen with D2/HU. People will end up playing D3 inevitably in big numbers which means HU will definitely take a huge hit in a player poo and eventually it will die. It had it's run though.

Would be cool to see D3 as moddable though.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

hehe player poo then die

I hope its more moddable than d2 was/is. No tools were released or anything like that for D2, all the tools used are created by modders mostly. D2 had horrbile mod support and D3 looks like it will be the same beast, just in diff clothes .

TL2 will be the one to watch for user created content.

TBH, I find it pretty shocking that they blatantly took some ideas from D2 mods and applied them to D3 but STILL say they won't support modding. Zzz

_________________

Torchlight 2 > d3??
I've played the first torchlight for some time and it was very funny. Ability to stack mods(like I downloaded 15 of them and all worked), strong modding community, often updates. Man, everything what hack and slash fans need. It was dull tho because no multi. Since t2 is going to have dedicated servers and the same or even better modding capabilities it's my pick. D3 so far has shown nothing interesting.

does this mean that blue isnt finishing the patch he started?

_________________
Its always in the last place you look....

not saying your point is invalid, but sc1 is NOT dead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aw-42JO3qk

2010 Ongamenet Starleague Finals in the Gimpo airport, SKorea (Korean Air was the sponsor for last years tournament so they held the finals in an aircraft hangar). Pro BW is the shit in Korea, Lee Young Ho (Flash) is a 18 year old millionair from playing BW

_________________

That is why I say let the mod propose changes and then let the community vote on the changes or offer alternatives. Its simple. Mod cant implement until community votes...if votes don't pass then use the most agreed upon alternative.

O_O

i voted number 2 in the view that we give blue a chance to communicate with the community in relation to more voting and not as much going against eachother but more social discussions. but if blue does not come back within a duration of time (say 3 more weeks, by the say 15th next month) and let us know what he is doing / planning and fill us in with his plans. we work around him and if blue and terry dont work around this and figure out a plan we leave the mod and work with a different mod of similar base. or get terry to change the moderator works just as well.

my other idea is go back to terry's 1.21 base before blue got to it and make minor but still effective balances from that mod to make this more difficult while still keeping it as balanced as it was back then. i admit blue has some great ideas about shards instead of skill gc's and the like along with the anti-rush bug which i might add doesnt work even though it was a good idea.

this may not sound here as it does in my head but hopefully people understand my point of view and work together as a community more than we currently are. ill add that blue has made good and bad changes.

now this is my second season and i have only played hardcore so i may have not actually played with terry's version of this mod (because i only started the forums recently ish) but i still like this ALOT more than battle.net (vanilla to some) so rather than seeing it go downhill i say we let blue do what he wants (with atleast a little community opinion in his decisions) and if it goes to far downhill we can just revert to an older version or itll get better by us not understanding blues intentions. thanks

_________________
Died on hc to "orb of town portal" skill

oh: i also meant to say something about the idea of community voting. delta has a good idea except voting might need to be restricted minorly eg, only people that have played softcore for 5 months or hardcore for 3 months should be able to vote and have experienced the things they are voting upon (not new players with new accounts and havent had experience with the things being changed) this is just an example that would need to be discussed but its an idea. think upon it

_________________
Died on hc to "orb of town portal" skill

Blue posted today.

_________________

That means nothing. There are good players who started this ladder and average guys playing for few ladders.
I'm against all the voting and dev teams. We just need 1-2 guys who can judge which changes are good and which are bad. Everyone should have the right to proposal even biggest bullshit but it will be ignored. Voting just holds us back. Folks like PureRage keep this mod living.
And it seems a voting system want guys who did absolutely nothing to improve this mod. Like suggestion forums wasn't enough... I know Blue should listen to us more carefully but forcing him to won't do any good, he will rage quit and someone else will come switch him and we will have the next update in 2013.

It doesn't matter what your against. Mancer laid it out plain and simple. He states the community is in it's own hands. Voting doesn't hold anything back. Voting is the majority of the community expressing how they feel. How does that 'hold us back?'

Mancer has stated HU is in the community's hands. I guess it doesn't make sense to some of you. Blues name was not mentioned in Mancers post. He gave no indication that Blue should do whatever he wants and he even posted suggesting Blue should compromise. We are taking about the creator of the Mod and not just some random person.

While Blue gladly came back to his defense before his position was over taken he still has no made compromising post or anything in that nature. No one knows if hes nerfing Oak or adding 6stat paladins.

It's plain and simple. If Blue compromised and doesn't nerf Oak and reconsiders six stat paladins then the community support dwindles back to his favor. If he ignores both these polls and continues to do what HE feels is best then the fire continues and it keeps getting bigger.

I don't think you quite understand. The veteran players all hold the power in this community as the flock follows those players. Hypothetically speaking wherever those players go including leaving HU will turn this place into a graveyard slowly.

In example this is how it works.

If players like Pious and I left HU permanently because of Blue then a huge portion of the HC community is going to follow if we went to a different mod. It's a chain reaction. The same goes for any vets on SC. The friends they brought etc. will leave with them as well.

If Blue continues his arrogant attitude of not compromising this is going to be the end result and with Kevin making his own mod he will capitalize big time.

It's in Blues best interest to compromise from now on or he'll either be saying goodbye to his position or goodbye to the community as they slowly leave away.

I speak on simple facts. Take it how you want.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

I know it doesn't matter, we need communism back and power to the people, only voting can provide the best solutions. Right.

I know what mancer said but we need 1 guy doing changes, is that so hard?

how does that hold us back? we have 2 polls that moved us nowhere really. I don't see anyone forcing Blue to do as we please, I don't see any other community patches other than PureRage (he just made a list of things that can be implemented, not necessary must be) but he doesn't even have time to continue. You want to do a new poll after Blue says "fuck you I'm going 6 points you guys are noobs" ?
In both cases he's won already. If he nerfs oak/add 6points then his position here is strong enough to push every bullshit changes. If he doesn't then nothing happens and guys would think they won in fact achieving nothing. He's not stupid he knows that. Convince him to add some of PR ideas then we can talk about gaining more respect from community.

I do agree. One person making changes is the ideal format. However, Blue is not that one person. He fucking fails miserably on game play experience so his logic is harshly skewed and he refuses to acknowledge this. The last sentence is fixed by compromising with the community. That balances the area Blue lacks as an individual.

What more do you need. Is his Barbarian screenshot not proof enough? What else do you want?

Regarding the patch PureRage put out. You don't even know what your talking about. The only reason Kevin modded that patch was because Pious asked him to do so. Baerk would have been just as willing to do so. If you seriously think that Blue is the only person who can mod a patch think again.

Here's something else you fail miserably at understanding. Blue is HOLDING on to his position as tight as he can. He refuses to let go of his power. The polls don't intimidate him. It's blatant obvious. He only came back to the forums and posted after his position was threatened by Kevin/Pious's proposed patch. He only posted for that sake.

No one would have heard shit from him elsewhere. In fact.. he proposed to the community.. to build your own patch. Kevin made suggestions. Pious picked up on it and asked him to build the patch and he did so. The patch was then put out. Baerk could have also built this same patch. Baerk is very intelligent and was also willing. So someone in the community built a patch and then put it out and contradictory to his own statements Blue came back saying he has a patch ready to put out.LOL.

I sent Blue two PMS asking him to compromise. I told him I'd throw 100% support his way if he compromised. I sent the nicest possible PMs to him and he still didn't reply. He has made post saying anything about future compromising with the community.

Majority of users are discontent with Blue right now. Doesn't matter how you try to sit here and defend him. Your on a small bandwagon, it's a bumpy road and the direction your headed is no where.

The average person probably reads my posts and sees the logic in most of what I say. I'm very reasonable. I'm part of the reason that more and more people are seeing Blue for who he truly is. I speak on the truth and I'm not afraid to say what I feel.

This means.. even the people who support Blue will eventually come to see in light who he truly is. It's why this poll first showed numbers supporting blue and quickly changed.

It's why the second showed even higher numbers not supporting Blue.

It's why a third could produce even higher results which is enough discontentment to actually remove Blue out of power or HU dying by everyone leaving.

In both cases he's won already. If he nerfs oak/add 6points then his position here is strong enough to push every bullshit changes. If he doesn't then nothing happens and guys would think they won in fact achieving nothing. He's not stupid he knows that. Convince him to add some of PR ideas then we can talk about gaining more respect from community.[/quote]

In both cases hes won? LOL. Your hilarious. You don't even make any sense.
If he nerfs oak and adds 6 point paladins then his position is strong enough to push every bullshit change huh? He nerfed melees to shit. He already has done stupid shit in the past. He created armageddon and valor. So something changes now if he can nerf oak and add six stat paladins? That means he can do anything?! Armageddon and Valor didn't stop him! YOU MAKE NO SENSE! The only reason he still has his position currently is because DUFF is supporting him. But not even Duff can save Blue if more and more people show discontentment.

If he adds those two changes after the community has showed strong resentment towards them then he will face more hellfire on these forums. More and more opposition and finally something major will actually happen.
Inevitability. It's a win for blue? LMFAO! GOOD ONE!

If he doesn't then we won Blue on compromising. It's a huge win for the community, wtf are you talking about? Achieving nothing? We've been trying to get him to COMPROMISE this whole fucking time. It would be the height of achievement for the community if he doesn't add those changes.

AGAIN YOU MAKE NO SENSE!

Is it too much to ask for you to think a little more before you actually post? I've seen good posts from you and I know your intelligent which is why this post strikes me as rather odd.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Hardcore may be a tight knit community but SC is nowhere near close to it. So as for the SC community following a few veterans. It wouldn't happen. You have a few groups like mine and then you have the 30-40 randoms who join games ask for rushes and items.

I've been solely private gaming it with a few friends for the majority of this ladder and when I do try and run Tundra/RoS to level I have to squelch half of the game so I can concentrate on what I'm doing. Lord knows I wouldn't let half the people on SC near one of my LoS games.

_________________

Why? If he adds it then it shows we have no real power over changes that are being made/discussed here. 1:0 to him, I doubt he's even considered he would be alone on realm playing this mod soon.

If he comes to his senses and say "ok ok no to oak nerf" then it's as was before, guys will say "look, Blue is very compromising, he tend to butcher few builds but he won't, we won!" as in matter of fact it will be just as he never proposed that change... still 1:0 to him, gain more respect for doing nothing... or for not butchering chars.

I'm not saying I'm agreeing with that, but that's how it works. Like he care that melee is shit vs things that matters, he could right away update boss res by cutting 50% of actual phys res and see what will happen - call it hotfix - and adjust things to that. No, he went 7 months of betatesting with psn chars killing everything problematic... many GOOD players that were playing here longer than I said "fuck it" in game and simply left.

I was told that many good players were willing to return HU after this patch, where are they? Bunch of new guys who play 2-3 weeks and quit?

I'm not saying it's all his vault, all these changes proposed were wrong, I mean some were good but not on that scale. He said he would work on this patch, let he do. But better don't wait for it and ask Soulmancer right away "what if we don't agree with few changes".

I agree with Pure/Pious patch part It made me, and not only me, LOL when I saw Blue's post there.

I stand with Lee Pious and Kev.. I remmber fighting with Blue before the first Blue patch came out reguarding the nef on melee and cb ex..

And with all the fighting back then with all these changes made me say fuck it so I left and so did my group and half my friends...Just what Lee said is very true if they where to quit there m8's will follow its simple as that it happened when I stopped playing...Now as it is i'm tring to get those people back playing..

We really should put Hu in the hands of the people that know the game ..
And if we do get some kinda change with the patch I suggest a beta test on it then a reset to get more players back in the mix of things .. As it stands now there isn't many people online to form decent groups..

_________________
P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

then why dont we wait for him to compile his changelog or whatever and put both patches up for vote. pious'/kev's list and blues list and the community can simply vote which to move forward with. as i understand it now we have 1 compiled patch but now that blue is posting we're on hold again?

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

@Zikur

Duff is blacking blue for sure 100%. There is no way that even with higher poll numbers duff would boot blue and throw in Kev/Pious patch. It isn't going to happen and Mancer is no where to be found after his recent forum activity.

The funny part though is that.. the mod belongs to the community so a higher poll indicates that patch should be brought in.

_________________
"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

[/quote]That means nothing. There are good players who started this ladder and average guys playing for few ladders.
I'm against all the voting and dev teams. We just need 1-2 guys who can judge which changes are good and which are bad. Everyone should have the right to proposal even biggest bullshit but it will be ignored. Voting just holds us back. Folks like PureRage keep this mod living.
And it seems a voting system want guys who did absolutely nothing to improve this mod. Like suggestion forums wasn't enough... I know Blue should listen to us more carefully but forcing him to won't do any good, he will rage quit and someone else will come switch him and we will have the next update in 2013.[/quote]

I agree there shouldnt be a time requirement to vote. Everyone talks about the community but you want to just give all the power to 2 people steel without community feedback as to the changes? So we just transfer from one person controlling everything to another person will all the power? 1-2 guys to make all changes...that is not a community mod. That is trading one dictator for another. That is not the way to go.

any other person would be reasonable enough to compromise some. blue tries to rule like mancer and it being an autocratic dictatorship but the issue is that blue isn't mancer.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

We don't know this for sure and we can't guarantee this. I respect the players advocating for change. Anyone who puts time and effort into something will have pride in it (even a bad patch). It is human nature to defend something like that. Once it is in the hands of a few people how does the community speak out for changes? Call me pessimistic but I feel like history will repeat if the mod is in the hands of 1 or 2 people. I just want to find a balance, I feel like the community should have some sort of a say.



I agree.

Wait, so everything gets voted on again and you all waste another 7 months? Good luck with that, but xmas will be over before you actually make any progress.

Ps. You weren't here when the other patch suggestion was made i don't think, but maybe you should read through the thread as i spent most of the rest of that day adding stuff and adjusting stuff people were suggesting. What more do you want? If you want changes soon your gonna have to accept that voting on everything is a complete disaster waiting to happen.

You can either have a patch soon created by 1 or 2 members, or, you can waste time talking about it and have a new patch after xmas after it's all been discussed to death.

Why not just wait a while so the people who have the ability and time to mod can add to the patch proposal with item changes (that i didn't do).

The people who have stepped forward (Steel/Kramuti) are decent guys with a fair view, I trust them completely to add to what is there and improve upon it, and so should everyone else.

_________________

+1

_________________

I trust Steel 100% because he's actually played every build there is to hell and back and knows the short comings and what is needed.

_________________

second

_________________
Its always in the last place you look....