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 Post subject: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:16 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:37 am 

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wow, this is awesome work blue. I'm really exited for this :D thanks for your work

ps: you wrote cold skill damage on armageddon instead of fire :P

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:52 am 
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Quote:
Blizzard skill level reduced on mercs (LvlPerLvl5 reduced from 4 to 1)
That's tooooo low. 3 maybe. lvlperlvl is divided by 32 so they will end with 4lvl blizz? this will affect all a3cold synergies as well
Quote:
Oak gives 3% per level rather than 5% per level
Increase hp per vita on druids then. With maxed oak and bo all vita I have less hp than average 85lvl all vita class. Or oak 4%? you can't compare it to BO as bo boosts mana/don't need to be up all the time. Edit: I had shifter druids(HoW users) in mind writing this. Didn't notice a lycan change.

Ah also. Can skele mages hp be fixed? It was in final test patch but isn't in this one. It has wrong ln34 - should be ln12, can't remember now.
Set canslow in missiles.txt for hurricane to 0. It lags too much in cleft/castle with no real affect on dmg.
Quote:
Shadow Dancers added ctc lvl6 Amp, 10% res all
Finally a2 merc with tomb reaver and amp... unless its 1% ctc... for a 90lvl very rare(yet not that great) unique boots.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:06 pm 

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Looks like things are headed in the right direction now. I guess I underestimated Blue. I actually agree with 98% of the patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:25 pm 
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What does this mean for Paladins already leveled? Or should I just plan on remaking?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:42 pm 

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It will only apply to new paladins, you'll have to remake.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Great work, Blue!

Just the first thing that popped in my mind after reading this: I wonder how much will the increased boss poison resists hurt Venom; physical res has been lowered, though, I'm curious if it'll be enough (Still missing high lvl poison based claws).

Some testruns should give an answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Mindblast:
Duriel(hell only, 25lvl), Deseis (16/20/30 n/nm/h) [these 2 are controlled by monprop.txt gethit-hurt 273]
Council member(phys immune,) 14lvl, that spire on the way to the summoner 23lvl, LoS assassin 46lvl. + 14 bonus from hell diff, she also has 12(no idea if this gets extra +skills from difficulty) lvl of phys hammer counter which synergized takes around 10k dmg (now, with 10% mag res)


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:21 pm 
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LockDown wrote:
What does this mean for Paladins already leveled? Or should I just plan on remaking?

remake :(
it only applies to new levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:44 pm 
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1-95 isn't bad should just stop leveling him now before he hits 97 or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Everything looks pretty cool, especially like the craft buff (That Safety Armor is going to be pretty sexy). Nice to see some more DS added as well, especially on crafts that were already worth using.

I still don't agree with the 6 stat point Paladin change. Even with the Oak change, they'll now easily have as much if not more HP than Barbarians, with a much better defensive skillset to boot (Pally's were already better tanks, despite the lower bulb). Though, its the only change that really irks me, so I suppose I'll live with it.

Never the less, excited to see this patch drop as there are some cool changes to check out and some beefy crafting to do.


EDIT: Oh, before I forget, can we finally get Blessed Aim / Defiance / HF A2 Nightmare mercs reimplemented? Pretty sure its an easy fix. There's been a couple topics about it and I remember the idea being favorable but a then forgotten about.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:39 pm 

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I disagreed with the six stat points and the bone necs buff. Bone necros getting buffed...? Did I miss something? Let's see how much damage they do now.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Bone necros getting buffed...? Did I miss something? Let's see how much damage they do now.

blue wrote:
Teeth: Change last two tiers from 16/25 to 15/24 (min) and 25/37 to 24/32 (max).
Bone spear: Change last two tiers from 32/45 to 25/35 (min) and 45/66 to 35/55 (max).
Bone spirit: Change last two tiers from 36/49 to 35/45 (min) and 49/66 to 40/60 (max).

Damage tables are being reduced, not increased for bone necros. With the adjustment to magic pierce, bone necro skills needed to be toned down a touch.

I am hesitant to adjust A2 mercs that way without a reset. Changing them can create invalidated characters on the realm if you get bad mercenary values and that isn't very fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Understood. Just throwing it out there, its a change that's been discussed about for awhile.


Anyway, wtf is up with the Oak % nerf? It's a full scale nerf for every character in the game with zero compensation, while Paladins, already the tankiest class, get another 100 free vita?

I don't see why the one life buff that requires a constant user, can die, can not be pre-buffed with and left, deserves a nerf. It's not just a Druid nerf, it's ~100% less increase life to every end-game build.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:00 am 
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pls dont nerf oak

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:48 am 
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Quote:
I am hesitant to adjust A2 mercs that way without a reset. Changing them can create invalidated characters on the realm if you get bad mercenary values and that isn't very fun.
1) you can change let's say a2nm skills to get different auras, just like you want to reduce blizz lvl it won't crash anything.
2)You can add new type of merc but need new text strings for that
3)Removal of mercs cause crash, changing skills without clientside edit makes them blink/vanish during using spells - not sure about auras.

To me Oak nerf seems invalid too, 3% is just the same as BO, while bo is a passive buff that increases mana(necessary for casters)as well. BO starts with 15% and not maxed or below 30level is very weak. In matter of HP now wisp protector's 12lvl oak gives more hp than bo from 20lvl bo(CTA), 40% nerf will introduce only problems. I'd understand that if oak gave something more than "just" inc hp.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:00 am 

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If Oak has to be nerfed.. I'd say take it to 4% and put Shapeshift @ 5%. 3% is a bit harsh.

I should more reasoning to this though. Likewise with steel, I agree that Oak and Battle Orders - the only two life buffing skills should not be comparable.

BO - Boosts Life + Mana and It can't be killed. It's based off Duration. It stays until you die or duration is gone.

Oak - Not only does it require you to be in the radius but if the Oak dies. you lose the life. Oak at 3% wouldn't be very fair.

If Oak is turned to 3% then there should be something to compensate for it.. such as an invincible Oak that can't die and even then BO is still far better as it boosts your mana as well.

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Last edited by Lee on Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:12 am 
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thanks blue!

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:24 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Lee wrote:
Bone necros getting buffed...? Did I miss something? Let's see how much damage they do now.

blue wrote:
Teeth: Change last two tiers from 16/25 to 15/24 (min) and 25/37 to 24/32 (max).
Bone spear: Change last two tiers from 32/45 to 25/35 (min) and 45/66 to 35/55 (max).
Bone spirit: Change last two tiers from 36/49 to 35/45 (min) and 49/66 to 40/60 (max).

Damage tables are being reduced, not increased for bone necros. With the adjustment to magic pierce, bone necro skills needed to be toned down a touch.

I am hesitant to adjust A2 mercs that way without a reset. Changing them can create invalidated characters on the realm if you get bad mercenary values and that isn't very fun.


Ah my mistake. Guess I read it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:58 am 
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Looks really nice. Hopefully it works out.


Too bad there wont be a reset >_>

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:32 pm 
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remaking some paladins to get 90 extra vita, will hammerdins perform now?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:26 pm 

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Don't forget about ww sinergy with berzerk. Is a must do!


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
Blizzard skill level reduced on mercs (LvlPerLvl5 reduced from 4 to 1)
That's tooooo low. 3 maybe. lvlperlvl is divided by 32 so they will end with 4lvl blizz? this will affect all a3cold synergies as well

Give me some exact numbers on what sort of skill levels mercs will get.

Steel wrote:
Ah also. Can skele mages hp be fixed? It was in final test patch but isn't in this one. It has wrong ln34 - should be ln12, can't remember now.

I see a ln34 that I can change to ln12 (entry for cal1) - let me know if that is the correct one.

Steel wrote:
Set canslow in missiles.txt for hurricane to 0. It lags too much in cleft/castle with no real affect on dmg.

Sounds reasonable.

Quote:
Don't forget about ww sinergy with berzerk. Is a must do!

link? details?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:51 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Give me some exact numbers on what sort of skill levels mercs will get.
Well, formula is ( (mlvl -1) * lvlperlvl) / 64 and you add base skill lvl.
On 99lvl they get extra 6 skills BUT they start (nm 72lvl) with 24lvl blizz. + all other skills from gear. I suggest reducing blizz lvl to 16 +- and leave progress as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:54 pm 
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you need to phrase that more clearly, not really following you and until I can follow your math I am unwilling to blindly apply your suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:55 pm 
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Don't forget to fix that terrible Corpse Explosion cooldown from last patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:01 pm 
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stars wrote:
Don't forget to fix that terrible Corpse Explosion cooldown from last patch.

don't forget to read the first post ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:10 pm 

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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3423 for ww + zerk sinergy


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:15 pm 
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ww/zerk synergy fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:50 pm 
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read few topics on phrozenkeep and it seems it won't work, not that way. calc4 works ok for everything but WW. I suggest removing %mag dmg from skilldesc or find some work around(ideas?). WW isvery strange skill, it's more a spell than an attack.
http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... =4&t=38398


Last edited by Steel on Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:54 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
stars wrote:
Don't forget to fix that terrible Corpse Explosion cooldown from last patch.

don't forget to read the first post ;)


tl;dr

8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Steel wrote:
read few topics on phrozenkeep and it seems it won't work, not that way. calc4 works ok for everything but WW. I suggest removing %mag dmg from skilldesc or find some work around(ideas?). WW isvery strange skill, it's more a spell than an attack.
http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... =4&t=38398

bummer

ww/zerk unfixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:19 pm 
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-couple of things

there are a couple of skills that i think are not synergizing properly. Fury's synergy from Feral Rage, and Fire bolt's synergy from Warmth. I will try to take a look to see what is askew, or if I am delusional.

There are some other things that I have listed in the bug list that I am not sure ever got fixed in someone's copy. Let me know if I can check some of that stuff off. (I see some things done, but not all)

Vipoermagi should be made better that Heaven's Light in some meaningful way. Higher fcr, more resists, better def...something. It has always been a caster's item. It should be that again imo.

Oak Sage to 3% and SS to 6%
I dunno. BO is always in active until it the clock expires. It does both mana and life. It can't be killed, as Oak often is. Oak should have some allure over BO. It either needs to stay the giver of higher life totals, or get better survivability than it currently has.

Few items that still have things that won't proc...I really don't recall what these are, but I know that I have run into some. Anybody recall any offhand? These should be fixed if time permits.

I don't have much time at all atm, overloaded summer teaching schedule and all that good stuff. Maybe over the next few weeks I could do some small task for you if need be, Like getting the fixes and lists noted here. I can't guarantee though. I am seemingly never done grading tests. :cry:
Put in a lot of work again Blue. thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Can you do a mass PM when the patch is out? I would love to be notified so I can come back and build a paladin.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:48 pm 
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bone necro modification

this will decrease damage, to help counteract the lower magic res. - DO mobs have lower magic res as well cuz necros are the best at clearing all trash imo, will they lose this to do some extra damage to a boss?

my bone necro has over 100 - magic res,

im not familiar with what the tiers mean, can someone equate to how much damage is lost?

im glad u announced the changes to valor/armageddon, i had plans to make a fire and ice zealot, and i hesitated, with the 6 stat pts, that woulda been a remake waiting to happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:44 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I see a ln34 that I can change to ln12 (entry for cal1) - let me know if that is the correct one.
They're better(don't die from a single hit on nm/hell) with that but still damage is worse than naked barb does. PureRage here suggested nice buff to them. But I'm afraid that won't happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:48 am 

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A few questions. First won't adding in woe and daylight leave it open for aura stacking? As in the old dream glitch from vanilla? Second, is it really needed to add res to forsakenmoon, I mean come on druid already get insane buffs as is. Adding all res and faster block rate to Stormshield?

As I recall, when this patch rolled out the idea was to reduce safety, res and sorbs across the board, at least till some end game gears. By adding in some of the changes it seems, you re-thought that idea a bit. To me, adding in additional pdr/mdr from crafts is going backwards. As is, I've heard of a melee zon tanking normal baal in a full spawned game. IIRC it was Purerage's zon with some huge numbers.

Here's my take on a few things. Elemental damages: +% and -% is too easy to get. People are spoiled by huge numbers. True, adjusting skills is one way to combat this. However, those without that uber endgame setup will be hurt dramatically. It is entirely possible, with current available items, to hit +150% to ele dmg on a poison char that's too much. A sorc can hit +175% from gear. No wonder people talk of how op a certain skill is. IMO, a reduction in +% and -% on gear would do a far better job in the long run, while not crippling builds before endgame gears. Take as an example my psn java, 100k plague jav using only a +20% crafted belt. Add in an additional +130% and it's an easy 230k plague jav. Mind you, my gear still sucks, haven't finished A3 hell yet, and not the best gear. IIRC plague lvl is 38 ish with bo. Even with that, I can still solo hell Leo unless he's psn immune. Takes a bit like 3-5 mins but it's possible. Done him several times.

Current set up on my zon, rare 2 zon circ, cats eye ammy, 2x skill rings rares, crafted caster boots with +2 passive, +5 rares javs, 2 jav 20 isa kb gloves, 20/-18 crafted belt, skulders armor, stormchaser shield. No shards, anni, facets or heart. 102-104k plague over 8.2 secs.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:37 am 
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Will the mana burn bug fix and the level 101 charm be implemented?


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:01 am 
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any timeframe on this? I have a few builds i wanna make now.

Also, are the new shield RWs for pally only, or for all classes?

can the sorceress get a 3 ranged orb (dim shard possibly?) as well? I have a very nice build for a ww sorce, i just dont wanna be deterred by not hitting anything i ww :x.

for the skill adjustments, i dont really get what the "tiers" are. whats the equasion, is it skill lvl * tier = damage output or something?


thanks really lookin forward to this!


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:12 am 
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Game reads and adds damage from a specific level tier to calculate damage. Tiers are
T1 - 1lvl
T2 - 2-8lvl
T3 - 9-16lvl
T4 - 17 -28lvl
T5 - 29++lvl
For example, prayer, before 29lvl is like "heals 90", after 28 it gets 12 more heal, that's +- 1/8 more than 28lvl skill...and you get it every level. I believe that nerf is because:
You can have 2 medi(medi amu being removed, ppl who muled it will be pleased), gear gives massive +def auras, +din skills so you can get 50+ prayer(someone has 64lvl on the realm, can't remember).
Same goes for teeth, spear/spirit. Gear provides massive +9(boneshade) teeth or +8(marrows)spear thus it's easy to get over last tier and have unbalanced damage - not that I mean it's unbalanced tho, I haven't played bone necs but I believe someone reported that it is.
So if let's say tier4 is 23min 40max(random numbers) that means from 17 to 28lvl a skill will be getting 23-40 more damage every level.
I may be wrong tho :D


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:21 pm 

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64 prayer? id like to see this guy ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Theory:
5 shard
1 anni
2 heart
3 Samhain
8 weapon(Hwill in +3 prayer)
3 armor
8 shield(purity
2 rings
5 belt
2 gloves
1 boots
3 amu
20 skill
well makes 63 + battle command = 64


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:50 pm 

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ahhhh i miscounted the belt and forgot about purity, thanks ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:35 pm 
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Krecik runs a... 62 prayer I believe. He uses a war instead of +3 armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:42 pm 
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any idea on a when, or is this still in testing?


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:13 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Theory:
5 shard
1 anni
2 heart
3 Samhain
8 weapon(Hwill in +3 prayer)
3 armor
8 shield(purity
2 rings
5 belt
2 gloves
1 boots
3 amu
20 skill
well makes 63 + battle command = 64



And you even forgot a helmet!!! another +4!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:32 am 

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-Liking the changes, very nice work!
-I Dont see the need for paladins to get 100 extra skill points though.
-Will conversion be removed from mind blast?


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:22 am 

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Any changes on Phoenix strike +% fire/lightning/cold damage?
reference is here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4099

The main thing is to add + fire%damage to the first charge (meteor and including the fire DOT), + lightning%damage to the second one, and + cold% damage to the third one.

Question on changes to the craft items. What will happen to my current crafted rings and amulets?

Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:34 am 
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rajawal1 wrote:
Any changes on Phoenix strike +% fire/lightning/cold damage?
reference is here: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4099

The main thing is to add + fire%damage to the first charge (meteor and including the fire DOT), + lightning%damage to the second one, and + cold% damage to the third one.

Thanks for the reminder. I believe I did those adjustments but didn't add them to my change log for some reason. Adding them now so that they can be documented and tested before roll out.

rajawal1 wrote:
Question on changes to the craft items. What will happen to my current crafted rings and amulets?

Current crafted rings & amulets will be unaffected by these adjustments.

Draped wrote:
-Liking the changes, very nice work!
-I Dont see the need for paladins to get 100 extra skill points though.
-Will conversion be removed from mind blast?

1. conversion is being reduced so that it doesn't get so annoying, but will still be on the skill. I don't think i documented that either, so thanks for the reminder
2. the 100pt thing is a mediocre solution to a paladin's problem with strength requirements. There has been a consistent complaint about str reqs for paladins since the patch and this is targeted at that problem. There are some better ways that this can be tackled with more complex code work and/or a reset, but for now this solution will provide a boost to the builds. It isn't my favorite solution, but the benefits outweigh the costs.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:47 am 
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PmP wrote:
any idea on a when, or is this still in testing?

most all wrapped up, but I will need a little more time to address some of the things recently brought up and then Duff and the server hosts may need some time to implement. We are probably looking at somewhere around 1-2 weeks depending on how badly the holiday weekend comes in to play. I just found out that my in-laws are staying at our house this weekend (oh joy), so that cuts a bit of a hole in my weekend plans to work on the mod.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:14 am 
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Am I the only one that notices that melee will still be shit because nothing has been done to address Iron Maiden?

I know that that serious melee viability issue has been ignored because we couldn't even damage a boss, but with no actual fix to the issue melee are still going to be useless against 50% of Hell bosses, most of the ones actually worth a shit being in that 50%.

Melee no longer has an option to counter Iron Maiden like they did last patch, so the change is physical resistance is a null point on any boss that casts it. Reducing physical resistance (to remedy the Amplify Damage nerf) is a good start, but its not the end all solution and it won't fix the builds.

Melee isn't strong enough to justify being unusable against 50% of the bosses in the game, so what's going to be done about this huge viability issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:20 am 
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and you propose?

personally, I feel that IM is really only an issue during the Baal quest, but I dislike that entire quest line anyways - the whole thing is fubar'd beyond belief.

Sammy is also another instance of IM being tricky, but that is much less so and an optional quest as well. Every other instance of IM is manageable in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:41 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
and you propose?


What I've proposed before, return small amounts of CB to gear so you don't have to thwack people with a Maul for CB and eat huge IM hits. 10% capped on 1h, ~15% cap on 2h.
It's no 25% CB 5FPA Smiter using all defensive gear, like I've already proposed more than once, return CB to small increments on gear (Like Goblin Toe and others that had it) and return some to 1h weapons.
CB wasn't overpowered, being able to slap 5 Ber runes in a weapon while sacrificing zero defense was.

CB already had a check in place, which was Iron Maiden. Iron Maiden forced you to CB with very little actual weapon damage, meaning you don't have 10% CB AND 30k damage on top of it.
Iron Maiden had a check in place, which was CB. You could still CB an IM boss and be a solid member of your party, now you can't.
We used to have that balance last patch.

blue_myriddn wrote:
personally, I feel that IM is really only an issue during the Baal quest, but I dislike that entire quest line anyways - the whole thing is fubar'd beyond belief.

Sammy is also another instance of IM being tricky, but that is much less so and an optional quest as well. Every other instance of IM is manageable in my opinion.


So being useless the entire fight is manageable? If you build your melee character well, IM will 1shot you. It will 2shot if you manage to leech anything decent or if your damage is low.
On SC? It means a lot of time wasted and maybe a failed boss run.
On HC? You're dead.

It's especially prevalent on anything that hits multiple times. Fury, Zeal, WW, you get IM in the middle of it, you're dead if you're strong. There is absolutely no way to counter that other than to not use the skill your build is based upon.

Couple that with the fact that IM is much more common than just Baal and Samhein, you have a real issue.

If something isn't done about it, melee is still going to be useless for half the boss fights out there. For a character that blows versus trash and real purpose is boss fights, that really blows.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:46 am 
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I disagree with your comment on building your character "well". If it fails at the purpose, it is not built well. I would say that only poorly built characters get 1 shotted.

I also feel that saying you are going to be useless at 50% of the fights is inaccurate. Who are these fantasy "50%" of bosses you are talking about?

You seem to be big on drama and low on reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:35 am 
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I always thought the idea of % based IM was a bad one. Since enemys use their own version of IM, it can be changed to a flat damage returned per hit, giving greater control over how much damage is being returned to players and not penalising those builds already with low hp and high damage multiple hitting attacks (jab, fend, zeal, ww, fury). Meaning you need to slow your attacks down rather than dropping your overall damage per swing This makes builds like a conc barb very effective against IM (slow attack high damage), while the 2fpa frostbiter (who usually has no issues with IM in the slightest due to super low weapon damage) not has the disadvantage and needs to switch to a high pierce weapon with a slower speed.

my 2 pennies

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:47 am 
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Maybe make IM=Blood mana ? Return 100 damage, 500% damage, 1000 damage ,but needs to be balanced melee vs casters. Barbarian is for damage not tanking,especially the whirlwind/frenzy barb.For tanking is the future paladin with 100 extra stat points omg (for vitality in my opinion).

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:57 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I always thought the idea of % based IM was a bad one. Since enemys use their own version of IM, it can be changed to a flat damage returned per hit, giving greater control over how much damage is being returned to players and not penalising those builds already with low hp and high damage multiple hitting attacks (jab, fend, zeal, ww, fury). Meaning you need to slow your attacks down rather than dropping your overall damage per swing This makes builds like a conc barb very effective against IM (slow attack high damage), while the 2fpa frostbiter (who usually has no issues with IM in the slightest due to super low weapon damage) not has the disadvantage and needs to switch to a high pierce weapon with a slower speed.

my 2 pennies


please do something like this!

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:20 pm 
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something to consider for future patchs, to high a risk of introducing severe bugs to justify the benefits.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:48 pm 
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a CHANGE to IM would be amazing... but don't expect it this patch (continues to impale tobi lol)

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:36 pm 

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Tell me if I'm way off but. Way back in the day on bnet i played Classic HC (before ladder system, 1.09) and to counter IM while running chaos people put on around 25-30% LL and kept the same high dmg lances hammers and swords they were spinning with. This allowed them to ww a good few times before they took half their life away. Giving them time to stop. My question is, what was different about that IM and the one you are working with now? Could changing the life leech on bosses fix IM?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Leech rates wouldn't hurt and they were set amazingly low in HU, but I am not sure that will help the very high dmg physical characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:49 pm 

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well, like I said this was ages ago. But if LL was returned to a good solid % and returned to Bosses it might solve these 1 hitter quitters allowing people to stop and let it cool down and heal before attacking again.

Just seems this could be done alot easier then some of what ive seen. maybe im wrong though, I dont know anything about the coding.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:48 pm 

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Make IM to give fixed dmg not percent of the dmg delt. Easy fix.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:36 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I disagree with your comment on building your character "well". If it fails at the purpose, it is not built well. I would say that only poorly built characters get 1 shotted.


You've never played an melee character versus an actual IM Boss, have you? If you have strong physical damage, you're dead. The only way you may survive is if you have max DR, but good luck getting that on a 2h build. Go take 30-40k Whirlwind on Diablo's Bone Cage while IM'd, I guarantee your Barbarian will die in 1 Whirlwind.


I don't expect you to know that though, because you're Barbarian couldn't hit a Hell boss, and I've heard it was leeched through the game anyway. This is probably why you don't understand the issue of current IM without CB, because all you do is speculate, you don't actually know anything.



blue_myriddn wrote:
I also feel that saying you are going to be useless at 50% of the fights is inaccurate. Who are these fantasy "50%" of bosses you are talking about?

You seem to be big on drama and low on reality.


Look through how many bosses cast Moncurse in Hell. It may not be exactly half, but its fairly close.
Course, if you want to only count bosses that are necessary for advancing to the next act, then yes, easily 50% of those bosses cast IM in Hell.


Take my advice or don't, I don't honestly care at this point. If you want to remove the check and balance system that was CB/Iron Maiden and not do anything about it, that's you running the mod to shit, not me.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:11 pm 
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I think the fixed damage on IM is probably a good one. It can be scaled by difficulty rather straightforwardly. If nothing else give them thorns attribute (not skill) or light-thorns...like quill rats have.

Imperial: I imagine drain-effectiveness values are harsher here, so you need quite a bit more life leech. You will need that value after penalties, at the minimum I imagine.

There was a thread discussing lifetap and lifeleech values. I forgot what it was from or who started it. You could do a search though.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:32 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
I think the fixed damage on IM is probably a good one. It can be scaled by difficulty rather straightforwardly. If nothing else give them thorns attribute (not skill) or light-thorns...like quill rats have.

Imperial: I imagine drain-effectiveness values are harsher here, so you need quite a bit more life leech. You will need that value after penalties, at the minimum I imagine.

There was a thread discussing lifetap and lifeleech values. I forgot what it was from or who started it. You could do a search though.


With the update, the average hell act boss DE will be 25%, Mephisto being the lowest at 10 DE. Most sub-bosses also have a DE at ~25-30. The Hell life leech penalty is 1/4 in HU.

Since 25 is such a common DE number in Hell, with the Hell penalty your actual life leech is 6.25% of your displayed life leech.

IE: 200% Life Leech = 12.5% actual Life Leech in Hell versus a 25 DE boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:13 am 
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Diablo has 20lvl moncurse(monprop gethit-hurt 212 6% 20lvl), it's (100% + 190%)/40 , so 7,5% returned damage. To simply counter this you need 150% LL? Or less but much more %dr/pdr. Pretty impossible. My barb vs tobial lost 60% of hp with oak (10k hp) with one hit, he fast switched to other curses as there were many summons to make him proc. I was using a concentration. Tobial has 10lvl moncurse which is 190/40 = 4,75% damage returned. Can't counter that with 80 LL, but it should minimalise damage as I'm using diamonds in gear, 160 pdr + iron skin. With lower phys res we can use a lifetap and bash for 30min monsters that have moncurse.
edit: just a thought. LL isn't affected by any deadly/crit strikes while iron maiden is. Amplifying a boss + using deadly strikes is 100% to die.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:31 am 
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Also the fixing of blessed aim and strategy?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:01 pm 
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States.txt -> Do a new line, name it as you like ("strategy") just set EOL to 0
Skills.txt ->Locate penetrate skill, change "penetrate" to this new state("strategy") in the "passivestate" column.
Fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:05 pm 

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Holy Amulets, meditation replaced with prayer 2-6, 8-10,12-16
nooooo es sorc amy useless lol


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:16 pm 
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it is a change to the recipe (already made amulets remain unchanged)

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:08 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:


Boss resists set to these values:

K this helps.

General Items
Sorceress Orbs have range = 2 rather than range =1

good

Damage tiers adjusted on MagicPrefixes to give a boost to both rares and crafting (see this post)

good

Crushing Blow
GoreRod, Woesatve, Husoldal Evo, Stormspire, Steelpillar = 4% Crushing Blow
IK Maul, Hone Sundan, Humongous, Minotaur, Exec justice, Windhammer, = 5%
Bloodtree Stump = 6%
Bonesnap = 8%


k

Uniques & Sets

all good here

Rune words
Valor +45-50% Cold Skill Damage
Armageddon +45-50% Fire Skill Damage

Yes yes Y E S. Mastery o skill doubles damage :/ these provide a nice damage boost ( what weapon gives 50? ). This will not be overpowered for a sorce as they will lose tons of - res, so it balances out. I see no problems here.

Chaos can now be made in sorceress orbs
I know what char im making next... ( cmon 3 range orbs >< )

New Rune words:
Are these pally shields only?

Has a mentalist been tested? what specs do they have end game?

Skill Adjustments
Significant boost to mentalsins


See ^^^

Decoy life reduced


O.k, theres gonna be a lot more kiting going on :D

Paladins now start receive 6 stat points per level (truly they are blessed by the Heavens)

Hm... If a pally goes max block, he will lose life/damage and get owned by elemental monsters, however if he goes pure vita he will get wrecked by phys monsters. Now they can go max block and have vita. I like this. Currently the only end game pallys playing are healers, this will help the rest i hope.

Blizzard skill level reduced on merc
s

My blizz merc with OP gear can take bosses on, however when i use the same gear on light and fire, they dont wreck bosses as much as blizzard does. in regards to the cold merc other skills, they are on par, however blizzard just does TONS of damage. I think merces need to be buffed from a survivability standpoint, but the tone down of blizzard is warranted.

Oak gives 3% per level rather than 5% per level
Theres going to be a lot of QQ from this, however 2% *40 or ~80% is not that much IMO. Oak will still be worth using and will work find.

Corpse Explosion cool down removed
hehe this will be fun

Meteor duration adjusted from 30 frames and +15 per level to 50 frames and +10 per level
is this a buff at low lvls and a nerf at high lvls?

Prayer
IF there is a OP class atm, its healers. I kno this is due to the multiple meds stacking prayer, but i agree with this.

Nerfs
Hurricane - idk

Rabies - IDK


Increased drop rate on full juvs

i think this only applies to you lol. this is for find potion and NOT for find item correct?

teeth/spear/spirit
Are the magic res for monsters being decreased too, or just bosses. Prepatch, necros did shit against bosses, and wrecked trash. ill have to test this but it seems that they can now wreck trash and kill bosses.

Psn zon nerf. Good

Crafts: I like



Why isnt this patch out yet???


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:58 pm 
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PmP wrote:
Hm... If a pally goes max block, he will lose life/damage and get owned by elemental monsters, however if he goes pure vita he will get wrecked by phys monsters. Now they can go max block and have vita. I like this. Currently the only end game pallys playing are healers, this will help the rest i hope.


Paladins have the easiest time obtaining max block out of any class in the game. It pretty much falls into their lap without sacrifice. If you're spending hard points in dexterity, you're building a Paladin wrong.
I don't know why people consider MB so hard to get.

An extra 100 stat points isn't going to change the core issue with Paladins, which is all their builds blow except for Healers. 100 extra stat points isn't going to give Hammerdins 80% of their damage back, nor it is going to give Smiters anything to do outside of KB LoS.
It pretty much has zero affect on the viability on any Paladin build, it just makes the already tankiest class in the game even tankier. A bigger life bulb on a class that hardly needs it won't fix any of their problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:04 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
PmP wrote:
Hm... If a pally goes max block, he will lose life/damage and get owned by elemental monsters, however if he goes pure vita he will get wrecked by phys monsters. Now they can go max block and have vita. I like this. Currently the only end game pallys playing are healers, this will help the rest i hope.


Paladins have the easiest time obtaining max block out of any class in the game. It pretty much falls into their lap without sacrifice. If you're spending hard points in dexterity, you're building a Paladin wrong.
I don't know why people consider MB so hard to get.

An extra 100 stat points isn't going to change the core issue with Paladins, which is all their builds blow except for Healers. 100 extra stat points isn't going to give Hammerdins 80% of their damage back, nor it is going to give Smiters anything to do outside of KB LoS.
It pretty much has zero affect on the viability on any Paladin build, it just makes the already tankiest class in the game even tankier. A bigger life bulb on a class that hardly needs it won't fix any of their problems.


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Paladins have the easiest time obtaining max block out of any class in the game. It pretty much falls into their lap without sacrifice. If you're spending hard points in dexterity, you're building a Paladin wrong.
I don't know why people consider MB so hard to get.

An extra 100 stat points isn't going to change the core issue with Paladins, which is all their builds blow except for Healers. 100 extra stat points isn't going to give Hammerdins 80% of their damage back, nor it is going to give Smiters anything to do outside of KB LoS.
It pretty much has zero affect on the viability on any Paladin build, it just makes the already tankiest class in the game even tankier. A bigger life bulb on a class that hardly needs it won't fix any of their problems.

The additional stats will help all paladins. Also weighing the work required to implement a more desirable selection of paladin builds versus generally improving every possible paladin build and focusing on the goal of this patch. I think this was a proper solution.
Don't forget the dire need for physical resistance reform on bosses and reduction in poison character effectiveness.

Patch looks great for being done so quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
The additional stats will help all paladins. Also weighing the work required to implement a more desirable selection of paladin builds versus generally improving every possible paladin build and focusing on the goal of this patch. I think this was a proper solution.
Don't forget the dire need for physical resistance reform on bosses and reduction in poison character effectiveness.

Patch looks great for being done so quickly.


A proper solution to what? It changes nothing about the class or why Paladins are in such a crappy situation in the first place.
Paladins already require ~100 less strength than any two-handed build, and require the least amount of dexterity to have max block. The also have the highest life gain per vita in the game.
Add that with the fact that they boast by far the best defensive skills in the game, you have a character least in need of additional stats to survive.

The problem with Paladins is that now their only use is being an aura bitch, which Healer does by far better than every other Paladin build. They lost all of their viable damage skills because of this patch and an extra 100 stat points will not fix a single problem Paladins have.

Without CB, Smite is useless as the damage is ridiculously low even for a skill with a 100% hit rate.
Without the bypass, Hammerdins lost more than half their damage, and will still deal less than half their damage in this new patch.
Zealers lost almost all options for Deadly Strike, reducing their total damage output by 50% or more. It was already an extremely low damage build without CB, more so now without DS. Add in the fact that Zealers are crushed by Iron Maiden, you have a useless build.
Vengeance was always shit, and will continue to be shit. Since it deals elemental damage, all of your damage is murdered by absorbs and the majority of the bosses are immune to at least 1/3 of your damage. Add that in with the fact it's % based, you want melee gear to increase your damage, not caster gear that actually has pierce so you'll never be hitting negative values to compensate for absorbs.
Ele-Zealers were always fairly sub-par and an extra 100 stat points won't help with that.

100 stat points fixes nothing for any Paladin build, so it's hardly a "base" for Paladin changes to come, as it doesn't address any core issues that make Paladins suck. It just makes an already tanky class have more life than a Barbarian.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Considering the original reason for creating a mid season patch outweigh any re balancing of builds (barring poison) everyone should be grateful the extra work that has been put into this unscheduled patch.

The extra 1 stat per level for paladins in my opinion is Blue's way of letting us know that he is aware paladins have issues, but there isn't time to fix them this patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:51 pm 
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if it is so much extra work, revert, reset, and work on (or dont) a new patch.
Image
That was easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Hell if everything everyone wants or everything that needs to be put in is worked on then the patch would be in a state of ever perpetual changing. And you all know your addicted so it doesn't matter what the patch holds, your still going to play or crave to play :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:15 am 
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Trafalgar wrote:
The additional stats will help all paladins.

The additional stats would help all chars...
WOW... I'm a genius...
Trafalgar wrote:
The extra 1 stat per level for paladins in my opinion is Blue's way of letting us know that he is aware paladins have issues, but there isn't time to fix them this patch.
Problems so far are magic res is too high - previously ignored and there's not that much -mag res gear that dins could use being a close-mid caster char, you could use an enigma/full soulmancer set last patch and it worked wonders, these items offer 0 mag pierce, requires 152str and give you 0 dex to help with blocking. Noone's gonna spend extra point to get that set. And running with caster gear is a fail. I have a hammerdin with caster gear and with oak/bo he's useless. Any healer is better than me. No pierce = fail. Hammers goes 22k damage, I have around 56 pierce(using -mag res over gems that help with hp/dex/live) and I only do 30% of that damage to a boss... That's right. Sorcs on NM does better... from a far.
Zealers are useless because phys res is too high, on everything, you can't get ctc amp now that easily, most of these items offer nothing more(like res, deadly or anything) and 25% isn't going to much differ when zeal has it's own flaws too(first missed shot = all missed, can be interrupted).
I like idea of overnerfing builds then overbuffing them simply not realizing that 1 thing at the time is all you need(to nerf). Last patch dins didn't need any extra stat point. I had 140base str on mine to be able to use eth sacred war rw(now AP??)/eth 511 zerker and still I was smiling while 20k hp barbs where dying. Ah I was zealing only trash. had a1 phys merc with a brand rw bow. I was smiting bosses with a ber'd grisword caduceus. Ber is a 80lvl rune, before I could use these I was smiting bosses using goblins, kingslayer, blood craft gloves and duress. Extra 100 stats won't change anything. Phys melee damage is and always was too low. Maybe 3fpa druids were ok but they're 2handers and have another problems too. Say Hello to more healers

HP isn't needed, you can go 10 vita build that's why oak is being nerfed by 40% (from 5% to 3% per lvl).
/some irony, some not.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:25 am 
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wait wait i got it !
paladins will get...SEVEN stats per level !
This will fix all their issues !

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:31 am 
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Isn't it the fact that charms can give life the real reason someone can get away with only 10 vita? Unless there's some substancial life gained per level... oak and other % life sources wouldn't be the real reason people are getting heavy life.

I recall well how long ago on Aftermath back in the day charms were still around the life mod was removed before blue/rare charms were removed entirely due to the issue of it was impossible to properly balance monster damage between people who didn't have life charms and the people who had a bunch of good ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:00 am 
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blue doesnt have trevor's modding ability so he would be foolish to think he can take on the task of re balancing monster damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Then I assume the whiners are willing to let the game sit in its current state for six more months while all their whims and desires are thoroughly tested and implemented. :roll:

Quick patch = few changes :o

Any quick changes that can fix glaring imbalances are welcome ASAP.

All of those physical damaging characters built and waiting or waiting to be built have to wait because people want their Hammeradin?(one build) :evil: :evil: :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:50 pm 
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In current zip file bosses res are the same as they were so it's hard to tell if meph will have total 60%res or 60% + 35%. But I'll throw you a bone:
Mephisto now has 80% + 50%, get your melee and I'll give you maxed amp aka 55% reduced phys res and we will see how your melee will perform vs 75% boss. OK? Feel free to talk to me on realm.
PS. 75% will be just a little worse than 95% - 25% from item amp, aka max you can get from non nec chars.
PS2. Re-downloaded package, meph res are 60+35%.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:55 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Quick patch = few changes :o

Any quick changes that can fix glaring imbalances are welcome ASAP.

All of those physical damaging characters built and waiting or waiting to be built have to wait because people want their Hammeradin?(one build) :evil: :evil: :evil:


So you are saying that the current changes to the boss charms which drop the invisible physical resist bonuses to bosses, the drop to boss act base physical resists, and the increase of leech effectiveness to diablo and baal in NM/hell are of not enough use to melees?


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Steel wrote:
In current zip file bosses res are the same as they were so it's hard to tell if meph will have total 60%res or 60% + 35%. But I'll throw you a bone:
Mephisto now has 80% + 50%, get your melee and I'll give you maxed amp aka 55% reduced phys res and we will see how your melee will perform vs 75% boss. OK? Feel free to talk to me on realm.
PS. 75% will be just a little worse than 95% - 25% from item amp, aka max you can get from non nec chars.
PS2. Re-downloaded package, meph res are 60+35%.

Isn't this a party oriented mod? With that in mind I believe the changes are appropriate. Without Necro you can get Meph to 70% and 50% with Necro, and further with +skills.

Baerk wrote:
So you are saying that the current changes to the boss charms which drop the invisible physical resist bonuses to bosses, the drop to boss act base physical resists, and the increase of leech effectiveness to diablo and baal in NM/hell are of not enough use to melees?

:? :? :? :? :? Not my position whatsoever, perhaps you misunderstood what I typed.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Isn't this a party oriented mod? With that in mind I believe the changes are appropriate.

It is. That's why I'll get a necro. Barb + nec are a team, right?
Quote:
Without Necro you can get Meph to 70% and 50% with Necro, and further with +skills
Maxed amp with many +skills is 55%. As necs don't necessary use(or max lol) amp as a1 phys merc is removed, necs not maxed amp will be around 29%. Can get 2nd char, throw amp and let's say bring firedruid who doesn't need any tanks, lr or other abomination. We will emulate proper party with a tank and casters.
Then you will call us whiners as you like.
PS I started ladder with 3 chars. Nec with maxed amp was one of them. I knew melee will need strong amp. I was wrong, 50% without skills wasn't enough to allow properly lvled chars to stand near bosses and fight while blades + meteo could. I don't know if you were reading forums back then but it was a 3rd week of this ladder.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Maxed amp with many +skills is 55%. As necs don't necessary use(or max lol) amp as a1 phys merc is removed, necs not maxed amp will be around 29%. Can get 2nd char, throw amp and let's say bring firedruid who doesn't need any tanks, lr or other abomination. We will emulate proper party with a tank and casters.
Then you will call us whiners as you like.

Then why do I believe you want more done to improve physical builds? Sounds like the nerf bat needs be swung around certain builds.
Or am I misunderstanding your position?


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Then I assume the whiners are willing to let the game sit in its current state for six more months while all their whims and desires are thoroughly tested and implemented. :roll:

Quick patch = few changes :o

Any quick changes that can fix glaring imbalances are welcome ASAP.

All of those physical damaging characters built and waiting or waiting to be built have to wait because people want their Hammeradin?(one build) :evil: :evil: :evil:


Have you forgotten that it was Blue's patch that completely killed melee?
I should feel eternally grateful that someone is willing to correct the mistake that they made? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Then why do I believe you want more done to improve physical builds? Sounds like the nerf bat needs be swung around certain builds.
Or am I misunderstanding your position?

High physical res isn't only one thing that affects melee. High def and block(non shield block aka 1frame), iron maiden, counters that goes directly to you and you can't just go left/right to avoid them. And you will only do 30% of your damage?? If you hopefully connect a hit? Last patch amp went 50+, average it was 75% and even with that melee needed to be very cautious not to die from IM, needed high def, maxed res and tons of deadly strike. Physical res, even Soulmancer said that, with CB removal should be lowered MUCH, not to 95% on Meph? What if a party decides to go LR to help casters? Or Lifetap? 5% won't help you to even leech enough. It's again AMP or bust.

And I'm not thinking about nerfing any other chars. I don't care if some dude kills hell baal within 10sec. I care that my char can't kill andy.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:22 am 

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Steel wrote:
Trafalgar wrote:
Then why do I believe you want more done to improve physical builds? Sounds like the nerf bat needs be swung around certain builds.
Or am I misunderstanding your position?

High physical res isn't only one thing that affects melee. High def and block(non shield block aka 1frame), iron maiden, counters that goes directly to you and you can't just go left/right to avoid them. And you will only do 30% of your damage?? If you hopefully connect a hit? Last patch amp went 50+, average it was 75% and even with that melee needed to be very cautious not to die from IM, needed high def, maxed res and tons of deadly strike. Physical res, even Soulmancer said that, with CB removal should be lowered MUCH, not to 95% on Meph? What if a party decides to go LR to help casters? Or Lifetap? 5% won't help you to even leech enough. It's again AMP or bust.

And I'm not thinking about nerfing any other chars. I don't care if some dude kills hell baal within 10sec. I care that my char can't kill andy.

+1
I also think that nerfing CB and AMP same time nerfed Mele attackers way too much. Lowering boss phy res is cools but still no amp and nearly no CB mean mele cant do shit. Especialy at baal. I'm missing CB so much, i loved my fury druid with round 20(30?) cb, so i could kill even immunes, and it wasnt op at any point cos where is my 30 or 40k dmg to for example meteor which stacks dmg, or sn jav which can just run around?? I'm and I will opt for giving mele CB back it's only way they can do anything in this mod. Even lowering monster and boss phy def by 50% wont compesate loose of CB. Also nerfing psn for the next time wont change anything, they still will be able to kill bosses alone, now it will just take a bit longer time to do so. So basicly java zon still will be 10000000000 times more usefull than mele character without CB.
CB was way that mele was able to deal with both IM and immunities. After nerfing CB my fury cant even do tundra alone cos of so many phy immunities, basicly cant do anything alone ...


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:55 am 

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Can i have one little request?
They are more ideas than request but, anyway:
1) Make enchant be all elements
2) Make an item that gives summon oskill, or a sorc Orb to make sure that it's not overused

I always loved to make Chanters on normal D2 and I think that on this mod they are unplayable, for a coop mod, i think it's one of the best support player but sadly too much weak... by the way, love you blue


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:49 pm 
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I agree the changes from last patch, which I didn't play, to the current patch were very unfair to physical damage builds and melee. I can understand the frustration but I don't understand the vituperation.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:31 pm 

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Prescot wrote:
Steel wrote:
Trafalgar wrote:
Then why do I believe you want more done to improve physical builds? Sounds like the nerf bat needs be swung around certain builds.
Or am I misunderstanding your position?

High physical res isn't only one thing that affects melee. High def and block(non shield block aka 1frame), iron maiden, counters that goes directly to you and you can't just go left/right to avoid them. And you will only do 30% of your damage?? If you hopefully connect a hit? Last patch amp went 50+, average it was 75% and even with that melee needed to be very cautious not to die from IM, needed high def, maxed res and tons of deadly strike. Physical res, even Soulmancer said that, with CB removal should be lowered MUCH, not to 95% on Meph? What if a party decides to go LR to help casters? Or Lifetap? 5% won't help you to even leech enough. It's again AMP or bust.

And I'm not thinking about nerfing any other chars. I don't care if some dude kills hell baal within 10sec. I care that my char can't kill andy.

+1
I also think that nerfing CB and AMP same time nerfed Mele attackers way too much. Lowering boss phy res is cools but still no amp and nearly no CB mean mele cant do shit. Especialy at baal. I'm missing CB so much, i loved my fury druid with round 20(30?) cb, so i could kill even immunes, and it wasnt op at any point cos where is my 30 or 40k dmg to for example meteor which stacks dmg, or sn jav which can just run around?? I'm and I will opt for giving mele CB back it's only way they can do anything in this mod. Even lowering monster and boss phy def by 50% wont compesate loose of CB. Also nerfing psn for the next time wont change anything, they still will be able to kill bosses alone, now it will just take a bit longer time to do so. So basicly java zon still will be 10000000000 times more usefull than mele character without CB.
CB was way that mele was able to deal with both IM and immunities. After nerfing CB my fury cant even do tundra alone cos of so many phy immunities, basicly cant do anything alone ...


so true.

i used to think melees were OP back when they hand 2 hand curse immunity. now that i've seen psn builds and fire druids i realize those 2hand ci melees were nowhere near the current strength of some builds. i'm not really sure what it takes to make a melee useful again. a build that can't really fight vs diablo/baal/baal minions/sammy/nihla/belial azmo because of IM is pretty crippled, not even considering physical immunes. i have a barb that has 106k ww and hes by far the least rewarding dps char i've ever built. he really cant do anything w/o max amp, a tank, and hp buffs. even with all that he cant fight vs the previous listed bosses or anything PI.

it gets even worse too with the nerf to tank items. dps melees have less survival now to engage up close than they did previously w/ the gear nerfs to sorb/dr% etc. all in all dps physical melee has been nerfed from so many angles that hes really not a party-viable build at all. lowering boss resist just means he can fight vs duri/meph/andy and the sub-bosses a little better than he could previously. that is all. i'm not sure how that is really a buff considering those bosses are wienies anyway.

unfortunately as i stated before i don't know what it would take to make them party viable again. my attitude is simply that their time under the sun has ended, and if you plan to play in a team phys builds are really out of the question as the party dps.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Too many changes for this patch,too many complains,too many bugs. I think it is a good ideea if we bring back Soulmancer's version.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:14 pm 

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RAMMSTEIN wrote:
Too many changes for this patch,too many complains,too many bugs. I think it is a good ideea if we bring back Soulmancer's version.

+1 for that :D Soulmancer version with all bug fixes would be nice :D I'm missing skillers so much ^^


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:25 pm 
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After all the mess , Blue said he won't make any changes because nobody here is listening to him.Blue don't understand the need of crushing blow and strength on melee items , instead make 6 points paladin ballshit.Not all players like to play only druids elemental, sorceress.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:58 pm 

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Trafalgar wrote:
I agree the changes from last patch, which I didn't play, to the current patch were very unfair to physical damage builds and melee. I can understand the frustration but I don't understand the vituperation.

Probably an age thing..


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:42 pm 

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Steel wrote:
Trafalgar wrote:
The additional stats will help all paladins.

The additional stats would help all chars...
WOW... I'm a genius...
Trafalgar wrote:
The extra 1 stat per level for paladins in my opinion is Blue's way of letting us know that he is aware paladins have issues, but there isn't time to fix them this patch.
Problems so far are magic res is too high - previously ignored and there's not that much -mag res gear that dins could use being a close-mid caster char, you could use an enigma/full soulmancer set last patch and it worked wonders, these items offer 0 mag pierce, requires 152str and give you 0 dex to help with blocking. Noone's gonna spend extra point to get that set. And running with caster gear is a fail. I have a hammerdin with caster gear and with oak/bo he's useless. Any healer is better than me. No pierce = fail. Hammers goes 22k damage, I have around 56 pierce(using -mag res over gems that help with hp/dex/live) and I only do 30% of that damage to a boss... That's right. Sorcs on NM does better... from a far.
Zealers are useless because phys res is too high, on everything, you can't get ctc amp now that easily, most of these items offer nothing more(like res, deadly or anything) and 25% isn't going to much differ when zeal has it's own flaws too(first missed shot = all missed, can be interrupted).
I like idea of overnerfing builds then overbuffing them simply not realizing that 1 thing at the time is all you need(to nerf). Last patch dins didn't need any extra stat point. I had 140base str on mine to be able to use eth sacred war rw(now AP??)/eth 511 zerker and still I was smiling while 20k hp barbs where dying. Ah I was zealing only trash. had a1 phys merc with a brand rw bow. I was smiting bosses with a ber'd grisword caduceus. Ber is a 80lvl rune, before I could use these I was smiting bosses using goblins, kingslayer, blood craft gloves and duress. Extra 100 stats won't change anything. Phys melee damage is and always was too low. Maybe 3fpa druids were ok but they're 2handers and have another problems too. Say Hello to more healers

HP isn't needed, you can go 10 vita build that's why oak is being nerfed by 40% (from 5% to 3% per lvl).
/some irony, some not.


I actually do think oak should be reduced. I mean lets face it high damage dealing druids dont need bo w max oak. Lee one pointed lycan and was able to use extra skill points for damage which is why his fire druid and pois druids are overpowered. I mean if you only need to one point a life buff like lycan in hc id say its pretty useless. The drop in oak's life is valid if a druid is focusing all on damage so they have the penalty of reduced life. Lycan should be a synergy of oak so that if you max lycan you get max life from oak.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Delta wrote:
I actually do think oak should be reduced. I mean lets face it high damage dealing druids dont need bo w max oak. Lee one pointed lycan and was able to use extra skill points for damage which is why his fire druid and pois druids are overpowered. I mean if you only need to one point a life buff like lycan in hc id say its pretty useless. The drop in oak's life is valid if a druid is focusing all on damage so they have the penalty of reduced life. Lycan should be a synergy of oak so that if you max lycan you get max life from oak.


Lee can only one point Lycanthropy because Skillers are gone. With skillers being replaced with massive +all/class skills, your build isn't nearly as focused to one tree as it used to be.

Because there are no skillers and his +skills affect his entire class, Lee has a huge Lycanthropy similar to the level a melee druid would have if he maxed it.

If a shifted Druid's life is the problem (which it isn't) you should nerf Lycanthropy, not Oak because Oak affects all builds in the game while Lycanthropy is actually a targetted nerf and not one that affects 100% of the builds in the game.

EDIT: Oh, and Rabies builds almost always max Lycanthropy (no better spot for your points after Creeper/Rabies/Oak) so I don't know why you're bringing Rabies Druid into the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:49 pm 
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Quote:
I mean lets face it high damage dealing druids dont need bo w max oak. Lee one pointed lycan and was able to use extra skill points for damage which is why his fire druid and pois druids are overpowered.
oak loses 2%, lycan gets 2%... status quo for fire druids. Fire druids have exactly the same +skills to SS as for summons as we only use +druid + ele and + all gear.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:57 am 

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Not only that.. but Deltas post is completely irrelevant because hes knows my build is based off the OP armageddon wep.

And clearly you haven't read the posts on the forum regarding the Oak nerf on a universal level. For the 100,000th time Druids are not the only characters that will be affected by the nerf.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:48 am 
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Delta wrote:
I actually do think oak should be reduced. I mean lets face it high damage dealing druids dont need bo w max oak


try a windy?

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:53 am 
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slappyNuts wrote:
Delta wrote:
I actually do think oak should be reduced. I mean lets face it high damage dealing druids dont need bo w max oak


try a windy?


ice druids are OP, wind druids are broken because its melee - not oak.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:51 am 

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Mm 1 more Important thing u forgot maybe lower channel music its cool but over high T_T thx


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:00 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:47 am
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
you can turn it off, press ctrl+m in the chat to turn off the music.

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 72
Lee wrote:
Not only that.. but Deltas post is completely irrelevant because hes knows my build is based off the OP armageddon wep.

And clearly you haven't read the posts on the forum regarding the Oak nerf on a universal level. For the 100,000th time Druids are not the only characters that will be affected by the nerf.
I doubt Blue overlooked the fact oak is a party buff.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:31 pm 
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I bet Blue is thinking that oak nerf will affect blades/decoys in team :). Which won't as oak from wisp or 40lvl provides the same survivability of these - 2secs.


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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:34 am
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im curious on when theres a release date of this patch :) thanks all who worked on it

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 Post subject: Re: Preliminary patch
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Kannli wrote:
im curious on when theres a release date of this patch :) thanks all who worked on it

ignorance is bliss

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