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Should hell bosses have physical immunity
Poll ended at Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:32 pm
No, all the new players coming must suffer our elitism and make only 'tanks', let's wait 6 months so everyone quits 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Yes, please fix it, because it's easy, it solves many problems, and it will keep this mod alive. 61%  61%  [ 19 ]
I don't care I have a poison zon. 35%  35%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 31
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 Post subject: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:32 pm 
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The issue that has come up in this patch is that bosses have physical immunity in hell. The fix for this is extremely simple, you go into the txt. files and lower the bosses physical resist by 20%, which is the amount that amplify damage was nerfed by. Note that it can be adjusted later, it won't require a patch and it will be fast. Steel did it in 5 minutes when we tested it, and it will solve the main issue with this patch, that is...

All physical damage is useless past a5 nightmare.

-edit- me and steel are going to run more testing to bring boss physical resistance to an acceptable value, one that will make melee viable. We will run chars with actual items, no 'god mode', and post our results and then send it to Terry.

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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Last edited by Rasta on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Meh, Why bother? Thread will be locked or you'll get answer that you must run 19394 boss runs with different charm values, tho they ran 0 tests while destroyed amp in first place. I voted "I don't care I have a poison zon."


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Steel wrote:
tho they posted the proposed files 7 months before the reset and WE ran 0 tests even though we were asked to

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:03 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Steel wrote:
tho they posted the proposed files 7 months before the reset and WE ran 0 tests even though we were asked to

OK!! So basically you came with some ideas in private forums, posted them on public after you couldn't do it by yourself and expected to get feedback? YET noone gave you how it works vs bosses and you implemented it anyway. Check that skill thread again, I said to buff it, I said meteo sorcs would rape bosses, I said wolf/blades will play main tank role and you disagreed. How realm looks now? and this forum? HUH. Sorry but I was involved only in adding items to shop, changing set items, I said to buff phoenix, I posted how to fix sob, how to give all throw items replenish (with code changes so it'd be 1dura per sec) and finally mana burn fix, I was testing everything alone with ollydbg open with random numbers, yet it wasn't added as you threat everyone here like a dirt but expect to get hardcore testing for you. I never posted any idea then "oh snap, I don't know how to do it but I bet you guys will come with something, and pls run some tests".


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Steel wrote:
So basically you came with some ideas in private forums, posted them on public


+1

You guys shut out 95% of the community and made your own private forum to do your own balance. Now 100% of us play what 5% of us thought best. I made a post about this months ago, and got chewed out over it because "we" couldn't listen to the whole community. Well...here's the end result.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1781&p=15281#p15281

I've said it before...so this will be the last time. I won't post about this shit anymore.

We aren't asking for an a huge game altering change. We aren't asking for new items, content, or skills. We aren't asking for a reset. All we're asking is that we do 1 more small update to make melee semi-viable vs bosses. Why be stuck playing casters for the next 6 months? I'd rather delete everything and get the melee update than play sorc/poison characters just to get through hell for 6 months.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:03 pm 
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couldn't do what by myself? People were crying they weren't involved, I gave them the opertunity to test, play around and suggest things based on what was being done + see how it would play out. Nobody posted anything about amp etc. infact, folks were screaming that the item buffs would make melee too powerful. Testing wasn't in my hands, i never said I would test, I said I would do the grunt work. I could have tested all myself (if i had no job etc.), but that would have been a very biased testing wouldn't it?

Quote:
I was testing everything alone with ollydbg open with random numbers, yet it wasn't added as you threat everyone here like a dirt but expect to get hardcore testing for you.

good for you, was I in charge of what was to be added and what wasn't? I provided a set of txt files, listed what was changed and they were free to be used or not be used. I didn't expect to get any testing TBH, it was simply there so people could test the product on offer, if folks didn't want to "try before you buy" then thats not my problem.

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I never posted any idea then "oh snap, I don't know how to do it but I bet you guys will come with something, and pls run some tests".

no idea what you are saying here, I assume the "" bit is an attempt at making a funny (you failed btw)

You seem to want to do it, and even post HOW to do it, so just do it, send it to terry and wash the sand out of your vagina.

@ jay
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1781&start=60

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We aren't asking for an a huge game altering change. We aren't asking for new items, content, or skills. We aren't asking for a reset. All we're asking is that we do 1 more small update to make melee semi-viable vs bosses. Why be stuck playing casters for the next 6 months? I'd rather delete everything and get the melee update than play sorc/poison characters just to get through hell for 6 months.

I agree and i'm all for a small update. some say adjust the charm, some say reduce monstats res, some say increase amp slightly, some say return amp. If folks would agree on something (lmao) it would make it alot easier and there would be none of this "you done what you wanted and ignored everyone else" nonsence. If folks had done this in the first place instead of arguing about not being involved we wouldn't have this problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:11 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I agree and i'm all for a small update. some say adjust the charm, some say reduce monstats res, some say increase amp slightly, some say return amp. If folks would agree on something (lmao) it would make it alot easier and there would be none of this "you done what you wanted and ignored everyone else" nonsence. If folks had done this in the first place instead of arguing about not being involved we wouldn't have this problem.


Good post, Purerage ftw.

Me and steel are testing it right now, now that we know that everyone is behind some sort of small change, we will post our results later

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:14 pm 
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FuryCury wrote:
You guys shut out 95% of the community and made your own private forum to do your own balance.

And yet oddly enough, if we hadn't had left that forum and opened it up to community feedback, Amp wouldn't be screwed up.

FuryCury wrote:
Now 100% of us play what 5% of us thought best.

See above. The 5% of us thought Amp should have been handled differently. Jarl had some valid comments when he said this:

Jarl wrote:
And your counter proposal is what Jay? Continue doing things as we always have? Arguing with eachother for the past 4 years and getting no where? How many changes has the community gotten?

Just look at the recent forum posts where "the community" has gotten involved.

You guys come up with these fanciful notions on why things are broken, and yet the evidence doesn't correspond with your information. When you actually look at the facts, a very different picture emerges. I know you felt burnt b/c you weren't included, but that really isn't why we have a problem with melee right now and that really should be crystal clear to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:28 pm 

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with crushing blow greatly diminished, the question is how much does boss physical resist need to be nerfed (and the boss charm) so melees are decent. too much change will create problems, and too little will cause more whining. hopefully the first step isn't too drastic and a small update can be released soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Quote:
no idea what you are saying here, I assume the "" bit is an attempt at making a funny (you failed btw)
I meant I wouldn't post suggestions if I didn't know how to do it.
Quote:
See above. The 5% of us thought Amp should have been handled differently. Jarl had some valid comments when he said this:
So exactly who's idea was to nerf amp that hard? Link pls
Quote:
Just look at the recent forum posts where "the community" has gotten involved.
HUH :D You really think you're above us all, wise, the best d2 (and HU) players, modding gurus, hell yeah.
BTW. Who the fuck is Jarl? Where is he and who gave him right to choose what's wrong for overall HU gameplay? AH he played HC that's it.
Pious wrote:
the question is how much does boss physical resist need to be nerfed (and the boss charm) so melees are decent
Average dmg x possitive phys res x block x fpa x IM counters, IMO. Or let's just assume melee does 30k at 1fpa and monsters don't block, easier to balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Pious wrote:
with crushing blow greatly diminished, the question is how much does boss physical resist need to be nerfed (and the boss charm) so melees are decent. too much change will create problems, and too little will cause more whining. hopefully the first step isn't too drastic and a small update can be released soon.


what me and steel noticed in our first batch of tests is that without any source of %CB, the damage was always linear.

So we tried godly amp, like 103 % or something, and the bosses still took quite a while. im not 103% amp is balance because you will leech too much and you will kill too fast, but the damage still isn't as godly as a poison zon or a fire sorc

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blue_myriddn wrote:
This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Ye, Amazing how with 100% amp melee with cheated weapons and max fpa couldn't match psn damage, and it was 2ppl spawn.
Rasta I did new chars and lowered charm, I'll send you and maybe we will run in /players4 mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Steel wrote:
exactly who's idea was to nerf amp that hard? Link pls


viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1746&start=0&p=14967&view=show#p14967

As mentioned previously, if it was up to me I would have gone with this progression:

30 34 38 42 46 50 52 54 56 58 60 62

I saw that the community was discussing and debating it, so I didn't get involved and just implemented what the community wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
(...)I think thats still to much(...)What do you guys think ?

NVM. Your progress seemed ok AND it's a shame it's not in game now. We tested it even further, Rasta will provide informations as he played ww barb with full IK, I didn't party him, only casted amp and other curses to test life drain - for example with 40%mana leech and amp 53% Rasta with 30k conc could leech -BIG NUMBERS- 50 mana in one blow... But he will summ it up. Charm was 15% on all non act bosses, 15% Andy, 25 meph, 25% Diablo


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:42 pm 
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like asteroth suggested in the thread blue provided giving synergies to curses, maybe give 1% more pierce to amp/lr per hard point to each other with the current set up while having the boss charms physical lowered a bit. this will give necros the advantage of curses than with curses from items.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Alllriigght

Me and Steel did some thorough testing

Note that the physical resistance values I have used is the boss charm+boss passive resist. Steel fixed them in the txt files to give us a reasonable approach to test it out.

Barbarian with Full immortal king, elemental set, and 26% amplify damage on swap.

Tested Juggernaught, Andy, Meph, and diablo, also including all bosses leading up to them, like mithia and lazarus.

The discrepency I found on non-act bosses and Act bosses is the amount of leech. Hell Meph and Hell andy both gave me piddly amounts of manaleech, considering the Full IK I was using+elemental set gives 40 in total. Basically with amp on meph he is leechable enough to keep your attack skills going, that's about it. Leech life? forget about it. Non act bosses you can leech but not much.
Meph took about 10 minutes to take down, and he was at 105% physical resist and then I amped to bring him to 79 and he still was taking very little. This is including the 4% cb from IK. Point of this is that you will still not be able to solo any act boss after andarial with a melee, as compared to poison zon, and this is after we fixed physical values. You must now consider the spells and attacks those bosses used, since I unpartied steel for about 10 seconds and i was dead, this is at 22k hp and maxresist+DR from IK.

This is my conclusion on what should be done

Put act bosses at 90-100% physical resist, slowly getting harder, and leave amp for now. If you have a necro wit maxed amp helping your melee char, well, it's called TEAMWORK. You will be able to solo hell andy with a fully twinked lvl 101 melee, and amp from atmas scarab. You will still need 40 juvs to do it and it will take some time.

The goal of this is to put melee on the map. The only reason it was nerfed is because of crushing blow. We are not putting crushing blow back, we are giving back the ability for a melee to deal more then 0 damage to a boss.

Once you add the boss charm + physical resistance from I boss, the numbers should look like this for a fix.

Andarial -90%
Duriel- Hes completely messed, use a poison char/fire char to deal more then 0 damage. Smite skill% DR stacks with his craziness, and hes physical immune to boot so amp doesn't even break him.
Meph 100% was still very steep. Put him to 100%.
Diablo - 101%
Baal - 102%

Non-act bosses, such as icedragon and AnB

PR on these bosses slowly increase, up to AnB who also has over 100% physical resistance. Also note that these bosses can spawn as stone skin, which basically means melee does 0 damage even with amp. Note that very few of these bosses are quests you need to move on.

Put a maximum physical resistance on non act bosses as 90%. Slowly increasing from a1 to a5, and castle of destruction bosses capped at 90%.

This is not the final fix to this issue, it is a fix to a shitty inbalance that will take lots of time and effort to get it right. Please do not be biased towards a certain class when discussing this, consider all the implications, and all styles of play.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:16 am 

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Rasta wrote:
The discrepency I found on non-act bosses and Act bosses is the amount of leech. Hell Meph and Hell andy both gave me piddly amounts of manaleech, considering the Full IK I was using+elemental set gives 40 in total. Basically with amp on meph he is leechable enough to keep your attack skills going, that's about it. Leech life? forget about it. Non act bosses you can leech but not much.
Since all bosses have leech resistance this is expected. My thinking is this was done to help prevent soloing, so should be left as is.
Rasta wrote:
Duriel- Hes completely messed, use a poison char/fire char to deal more then 0 damage. Smite skill% DR stacks with his craziness, and hes physical immune to boot so amp doesn't even break him.
He doesn't spawn immune he gets it after he attacks. I read something on it to the effect he's 101% phys res after he smites so lvl1 amp "supposedly" breaks it, but his MC is something beyond that. Since amp functions at 1/5th effect breaking it he would need a further adjustment. Since he uses the skill smite, like the pala skill he gains the same properties, so perhaps smite needs to be adjusted as well for that reason. Am I correct in my understanding that monster skills like amp, lr, etc all function like the char skills?

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:02 am 

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this thread is full of win


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:12 am 
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Quote:
Am I correct in my understanding that monster skills like amp, lr, etc all function like the char skills?
Yes and no, amp, lr, conv, auras etc.etc and smite work like players' skills. Tho they're few skills that are just copy/paste and can't be used by players - iron maiden and lifetap for example, monsters IM is highly reduced and tap buffed. If anyone wants to test how smite on monster works, go face blaze ripper on tundra, once he and his minions use smite they're nearly immune to phys damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:02 pm 

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As I explain this in every relevant (lol did I say relevant?! I mean most of the topics that were derailed by Rasta when he was in his period), melee fix can happen in this situation that nobody talked about:

Idea: Make bosses soloable by ANY char that has countable infinity amount of juvs and health/mana potions, BUT bosses should have the same amount of resistances to everything (hell andy shouldn't have 3 digit physical resistance and -50% fire resistance, I don't know if she has -50 in HU as well, but hell andy had -50 in b.net). ALSO, sources of dot (damage over time) should also be considered and must be given more resistance.

Application:

98% for everything except poison and fire, 99% for poison and fire, no stone skin for act bosses and nerf outside sources of amp and lr. Bosses are still soloable, by that I mean they take damage, but in order to kill something in less than half an hour, teamplay is required. 98% and 99% don't have that much of a difference with amp-lr in the mix, but has a lot of difference without amp-lr. Idea behind this is the fact that fire and poison have damage over time, which prevents full regeneration very easily. Also, leech rate can be rearranged so that melee chars can actually leech but feral-fury shouldn't solo bosses ezpz.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:58 pm 
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RushDaddy, all good but your propositions require at least 3months of testing and modding. Anyone who tried balance at least one location like den of evil will know that.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:01 pm 

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Steel wrote:
RushDaddy, all good but your propositions require at least 3months of testing and modding. Anyone who tried balance at least one location like den of evil will know that.

Which is slightly less than this current patch? Or slightly more? I'm sure people would participate in the testing thing especially after living through an insufficiently tested patch.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:26 am 

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why did you even make a poll


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:59 am 

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the issue can be solved way more easyer. Just put a global resistance to physical, let's say like 30 % considering there are no items who can pierce it. And make the boss charm to have like 20 % resistance to physical. We will still need like 10 minuts to kill any hell act boss!


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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:50 am 

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tase wrote:
the issue can be solved way more easyer. Just put a global resistance to physical, let's say like 30 % considering there are no items who can pierce it. And make the boss charm to have like 20 % resistance to physical. We will still need like 10 minuts to kill any hell act boss!
Atma's ammy with it's lvl 3 amp is like 27% pierce. Necro with maxed amp can hit arond 55-60% pierce. Setting it too low makes it too easy for a phys dmg char to solo. The idea is to make soloing bosses a chore.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll to fix melee issue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:39 am 

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The idea is a poison/elemental char can have like 106 % more poisen/elemental dmg and -106 % poisen/elemental pierce only from jewels. And it won't be easy killing a boss with a meelee char cause u have to tank he's dmg. Wich still sucks but at least u can try do it, and u have a chanse to kill it, even if it takes 10 mins. Andariel died in 30 sec, in a 8 player game, killed by a sorc with meteor + blaze or fire wall, or who knows. I need more time to kill eldrich with 450 str barb and dual gf's when he have stone skin. Atm there is no call to do such a stupid thing like trying to kill a boss because u go there, do no dmg at all with amplifie or without, u die, u get mad and u start crying on forums. There is no other option.
So fuck it, i'le get the shards from trades and hope to get the other good items wich i dont have from tundra. I won't start doing a sorc or some poisen freak because i dont like those chars. So do as u wish and at least make that berserk sinergy work.


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