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 Post subject: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:18 am 
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Currently we have had some great feedback from this patch and identified a number of great issues that are wonderful targets for future balance and adjustment. I applaud the community for sharing their stories and information on builds and items so that we can all learn and move forward. I encourage people to continue to do this and continue to provide detailed information as the ladder progresses.

I think it is clear that melee characters face difficulties starting in mid to late nightmare that get progressively worse as Hell looms before them. Some of these difficulties are intentional from the patch to encourage team play, while some of them were unforeseen. Most notable is the hidden physical immunity of most every Hell boss in the game (see note below for full detail).

Despite this, I would recommend letting this ladder season continue to run its course and let players continue to explore ways to overcome these challenges. The ingenuity of players is something that should never be underestimated and I think we may see some clever ways to tackle these issues. It may also be interesting to see how party compositions change over time as players become more and more familiar with the changes in the patch. Even the hidden immunity issue can be overcome simply by having a necromancer casting Amplify damage rather than relying on wands or items to cast it for you.

While poison builds are currently very much in favor, will they stay in favor? History tends to suggest that "flavors of the month" rise and fall as a ladder season progresses, so perhaps poison will no stay king for long. I personally find that hard to believe, but then again that is the very nature of how it works. There is a famous saying of "you don't know what you don't know" and this certainly applies in most every case.

I do know that well played teams continue to dominate this mod. For those who feel that a poison build is amazing, they should watch what happens when you get a good team together. The stunning DPS that is available when players work together far outstrips anything that any poison character can bring to the table. A team's ability to outsmart the AI of any boss by working together far outshines anything that any recastable tank can perform. The most overpowered build in this mod remains a well played team. This is good.

In short, while I wouldn't be opposed to a "hotfix" in monstats.txt on the server side to fix the hidden physical immunity issue should Soulmancer choose to do so, I wouldn't personally recommend it. I think it is better to give this patch some time.

My recommendation is to release a new balance patch sometime around May-June and reset the ladder at that time. This would break away from our yearly ladder resets, but I think that a half year cycle in this circumstance is warranted.









Note on hidden physical immunity.
Bosses have a unique charm in their inventory that grants them additional resists, absorbs and skills. This charm acts in a strange way and makes certain bosses immune to physical damage unless a high level of amplify damage is used. What happens is that the bosses inherent resistance (BR) combines with the charm resistance (CR) to give the boss over 100% physical resistance. Unlike most immunity though there is no 1/5th penalty being applied, so as long as your curse amount brings the values of BR+CR below 100%, you can begin to do damage.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:19 am 
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Half year reset?

so by the time i get to a5 hell with a few builds its time to start over...might be able to get end game gear up by then on one build.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:35 am 

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to many necros abandoned phsical chars. they just get summons and lower res or posion and lower res. none of them are willing to max amp damage.

maybe make one of the barbs war crys lower phsical resistance by 25% or that sword make it give off a aura of -25% physical resistance to enemy monsters. starts at -5% physical resistance and -1% more physical resistance per skill point.

and or just fix all the posion chars in the game.

heres how to fix all the posion builds.
when a posion spell takes 7 seconds to do 150k damage instead make it do 35k over 1 second. that way no more cheap 1 shot and run away. instead they can attack over and over like every other char in the whole game has to do. so they are much more likely to be killed attacking non stop.
but also if this is added back in then bring back the auto spawning of a posion cloud with a necros posion strike. but make sure each spawned cloud can't hit the same target more than once.

and maybe rabies will need to last atleast 2 seconds so it has a chance to spread.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:52 am 
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poison is designed like that for a reason. dont do to poison what was done to melee. it already lasts for shorter durations on some bosses. id rather see that tweaked than 1 sec static duration.

also half year reset imo isnt a good idea when a big issue can be hotfixed and then if i am not mistake items can be adjusted or does that need client side too?

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:18 am 

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I agree that a half year reset shouldn't be done, since people will be either into the game or passing on this round because of the issues this patch presents. I think the best possible solution would be to let the patch pan out 1 or 2 more weeks so we can figure out all the issues the patch presents, all-the-while fixing what is already wrong. Have a new patch out hopefully have a new patch out as soon as possible after that.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:28 am 
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ziggy wrote:
heres how to fix all the posion builds.
when a posion spell takes 7 seconds to do 150k damage instead make it do 35k over 1 second. that way no more cheap 1 shot and run away. instead they can attack over and over like every other char in the whole game has to do.


This is the point of poison, hit n run, imo removing duration would be a big mistake. We need to fix the phys problem itself, not ajusting everything else around it to put it to the same level.

I'd say to make amp more appealing just take it back to a point inbetween what it was last season and what it is now, and leave lower resistance as it is now.

If higher amp effect means tanks can solo hell bosses with item provided amp then id say lower the amp level on items maybe.

Having sword of arreat lower phys resistance means ability for barbs to solo hell bosses again, so it seems inappropriate, unless the effect is too weak to break bosses immunity alone and would still require a necro casting amp.

So my recommandation would be to put amp at 10% at level 1 and 3% per hard point and 1% per 2 soft points, this way maxed amp would provide 67%, before gear bonus, which means around 80% with gear and a 1 hard point amp would be around 25% with gear.

Have a nice day!

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
poison is designed like that for a reason. dont do to poison what was done to melee. it already lasts for shorter durations on some bosses. id rather see that tweaked than 1 sec static duration.

also half year reset imo isnt a good idea when a big issue can be hotfixed and then if i am not mistake items can be adjusted or does that need client side too?


Poison builds use hit and run tactics therefore they generally take less damage because they don't have to 1. stand in melee for long durations and 2. concentrate on aiming spells.

Hotfix or reset I'm glad changes will be made. :D


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:08 pm 
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and what use would a poison necro be to stand there and swing the entire time. you know there is a reason melee necro's are considered one of the most novelty builds right?
DoT is just the way poison behaves. its like that in most mmorpgs. changing that is not a good game plan. id rather see a sacrifice type of downside (dmg to self penalty) added before duration was made 1 static sec.

but as has been mentioned the focus should be to fix melee rather than bring everything down to that level.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:12 pm 
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I believe the reason Blue suggests a patch is to fix more than melee.
I don't see a damage nerf to poison being all that bad either. Damage can be reduced without hurting duration. :o It will just mean more time spent if trying to solo bosses (making soloing more difficult) and poison should stay a viable damage source in groups. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:57 pm 
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So we don't want a barb to solo hell andy when poison zon solo's hell baal.

Face it, you can't stop a fully geared lvl 95+ tank take down a hell boss if you take out this phys immune.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:20 pm 
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amp would still be 26% w/o nec

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:04 am 

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The only reason why I think a half-year patch should not be done is because the next patch should require more time and input involved to make it much more effective then the last one. I don't think there was enough *valid* feedback and input regarding last patch and in some ways It didn't go that great.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:57 am 
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a lot of those bumps have been smoothed out besides the melee problem.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Lee wrote:
The only reason why I think a half-year patch should not be done is because the next patch should require more time and input involved to make it much more effective then the last one. I don't think there was enough *valid* feedback and input regarding last patch and in some ways It didn't go that great.


because 7 months wasn't enough for people to test last time? Or maybe because people are just lazy and don't bother testing stuff out.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Not everyone plays this all the time. I usually play this mod like once every 2 years or so and play for a few weeks straight then I'm done.

Assuming I did play all the time I would give feedback on it, but I don't so what can you do.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Quote:
because 7 months wasn't enough for people to test last time? Or maybe because people are just lazy and don't bother testing stuff out.
But how could ppl would actually test stuff? With cheated chars running through all acts? Remember what you wrote?
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Also, tested in hell on single player with layers set to 4. No cb and the low level amp and the barb was still able to kill hell baals minions so I don't see what the issue is here. If you have tested it and had issues then please expand on them, what you "think" isn't relevant unless you have actually tested it.
It was 17dec with all changes, soon after there was a realm reset and noone could even enter baal room - in package there were all changed maps. As you can see testing isn't always that easy.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:02 pm 
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It was 17dec with all changes, soon after there was a realm reset and noone could even enter baal room - in package there were all changed maps. As you can see testing isn't always that easy.

yes I did a test with a necro and a barb, was I expected to test every single char combination??? There are a lot of people here and a lot of possibilitys for 2 people to test stuff out using diff combinations. did anyone bother? no

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:15 pm 
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the only thing that really went live in Dec was the item changes. As far as I can tell, they haven't introduced any serious problems.

The amp damage stuff which is causing the real headaches in Hell was introduced long ago.

Either way, it is a moot point. This recent patch got about as much testing as we could ever expect any patch to get. Beyond what was done is unrealistic to expect from a community and volunteer efforts.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
It was 17dec with all changes, soon after there was a realm reset and noone could even enter baal room - in package there were all changed maps. As you can see testing isn't always that easy.

yes I did a test with a necro and a barb, was I expected to test every single char combination??? There are a lot of people here and a lot of possibilitys for 2 people to test stuff out using diff combinations. did anyone bother? no


In all fairness, you guys took on the job, picked your team and shut the others out (even put a lock on the forum). Only to ask for help when you realized you bit off more than you can chew. From what I remember there were plenty of people mad they weren't included or mad at who was taking control that would have helped if they were let in.

To be bitter about people not testing after you excluded most of the community is a tad weird.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:33 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Lee wrote:
The only reason why I think a half-year patch should not be done is because the next patch should require more time and input involved to make it much more effective then the last one. I don't think there was enough *valid* feedback and input regarding last patch and in some ways It didn't go that great.


because 7 months wasn't enough for people to test last time? Or maybe because people are just lazy and don't bother testing stuff out.


I can't comment on this because I was not involved in discussions regarding the patch but It's a ridiculous excuse to say there are not intelligent people who can be involved in helping with a patch. There are a lot of people interested in giving their opinion to support the patch. The problem isn't the availability of useful opinions. The problem is who's opinion is valued and who's isn't.

Balancing is a sensitive issue, with that being said.. It is a volunteer basis to patch the game and I'm not hating at all. I just think there are intelligent people who would gladly volunteer their time to help test and make the next patch better. I'm willing to do so and I'm sure much others are.

I spend lots of time on this game and It only makes sense if given the opportunity that I would try to help balance it as it makes my playing experience more enjoyable.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:52 am 
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stars wrote:
In all fairness, you guys took on the job, picked your team and shut the others out (even put a lock on the forum). Only to ask for help when you realized you bit off more than you can chew. From what I remember there were plenty of people mad they weren't included or mad at who was taking control that would have helped if they were let in.

To be bitter about people not testing after you excluded most of the community is a tad weird.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Nobody is bitter, the point im making is, people are talking about "no testing was done", that wasn't down to the folks who were doing the actual editing though. If you didn't want to get involved thats fair enough, just don't spout the whole "it wasn't tested" bullshit when everyone had 7 months to see how it was looking. I spent time trying some stuff out, Was I expected to check every single combination of builds myself and at the same time, goto work, deal with RL stuff, AND implement ideas???

I didn't sign up for that, I aggreed I would learn how to make the skillchanges and implement them as needed. Yes learn since I'd never done any modding before that.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:57 pm 
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My opinion is that if you mess with balance so much you should be ready to do a quickfix and see what happens instead of waiting 6-7 months to change anything at all and relying on 'inguenity' when there are blatantly obvious things that are wrong. Keep doing small changes to your big patch so we can even approach something called balance.

We put our faith in you (some of us), and you took up the responsibility. If you make a mistake, no one here is out to get you (maybe some are), but if you make a mistake and leave it then shit will go downhill.

Maybe open a suggestion thread that you will undertake a quick fix instead of saying, NO THIS IS FINAL TILL NEXT YEAR or something so that half the community doesn't quit because they see how one sided caster vs. melee is.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:08 pm 
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I think you need to get some perspective on this. We don't *owe* you anything. I could leave this mod tomorrow and suffer no consequences. What - you are going to think I am a dick? Big deal, you already think I am a dick, so no change there. Besides, what do I care if some internet putz thinks poorly of me? Not going to be putting a cloud over my sunshine.

We made changes. We solicited feedback. We incorporate feedback. We didn't account for everything. We didn't balance everything. We didn't complete everything.

So what? This is a VOLUNTEER operation. Change your perceptions on what you are getting for free, because it isn't costing you anything.

I love it when Soulmancer makes changes. I love it when he lets the community make changes. Keeps things fresh. But I don't expect that he will, nor do I demand it. When he does it, I accept it for what it is - a gift to me at no cost - and I respond accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Not saying your a dick blue, because I know a lot of people are putting all the blame on you when they shouldn't. My Zen state of my true self says this 'chill, people don't mean what they say and they would never be so mean if they met you in person, the internet just distorts it to make it look bad'.

About your gift analogy, what you did was you took Soulmancer's 'gift' and twisted it to the whims of a select group of hardcore players which has caused huge inbalances in softcore because when I play with those polaks in their a3 meph suicide game.... in the past I could get by but now ....

This mod in itself has been a gift from Soulmancer, but it got messed up last patch because of perspective.

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:28 pm 

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The thing is there were a great many changes made all at once. Skill changes and many item changes. Some voiced concern over making wholesale radical changes all at once, we got scoffed at as being less than knowledgeable. I agree that changes were warranted but making them as they were had some unforeseen consequences. Now, we need to take a look and see if making a few small changes can counter the imbalance created. First step is removing the monsters charms, which I feel should be done before any further item/skill adjustments are made. Why? Simple that would give us live feedback to see if more adjustments are needed. That way, if we need further adjusting of skills like amp, or need to add back in a bit of CB/DS we have positive proof.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Quote:
The thing is there were a great many changes made all at once.
+1.
Quote:
Skill changes and many item changes.
Amp and CB removal - if 3% on destroyed amp isn't removal then dunno what is. Other skills/items are ok and ppl adopted fast. Have any one met someone who would say removal of skillers hurts his dmg? No.
Quote:
First step is removing the monsters charms,
With removal of that you'd have to cut all damage done by players 5 times +-. 50k dps and 900k boss with any source of lr/conv dies in... my math fails sometimes(j/k), also it comes with bossprayer(thats why they heal over time) and many counterskills. Nerf is proper word here, phys and maybe a bit elements other than fire and maybe increase poison length reduction to 75%(cap).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:38 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
The thing is there were a great many changes made all at once. Skill changes and many item changes. Some voiced concern over making wholesale radical changes all at once, we got scoffed at as being less than knowledgeable. I agree that changes were warranted but making them as they were had some unforeseen consequences. Now, we need to take a look and see if making a few small changes can counter the imbalance created. First step is removing the monsters charms, which I feel should be done before any further item/skill adjustments are made. Why? Simple that would give us live feedback to see if more adjustments are needed. That way, if we need further adjusting of skills like amp, or need to add back in a bit of CB/DS we have positive proof.


It was well known by soulmancer and even warned about how these changes would effect balance, it was just ignored.. that was the main issue he had with the whole thing. When he stepped in and told blue not to do certain things, that's when blue got all pissy and wasn't happy. The only reason SM aloud this to happen was because he decided to step down and retire from the mod, so he let these guys take over.

I guess everyone needs to learn for themselves I know I have a hard time taking advice sometimes and need to learn it on my own.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:12 pm 
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ppl are using a few aspects as evidence of many aspects being bad. the equipment changes are not a bad idea. making it harder to get res/sorbs makes the game more insteresting. you want to just have a huge amount of hp and max res/sorb and walk around taking minimal damage all the time? id rather i gain benefit from making sure im prepared for a given area that i may have the best chance of surviving a given challenge.
im rambling.
most changes were good and needed. the boss charm wasnt even changed this patch it couldnt have been predicted. maybe there could be tweaks but no need to say the patch was a mistake. a reset is for something new. and overall this has been a good reset.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:23 pm 
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The thing that strikes me is that the players that are ahead are the ones who banded in a group of 3 or four, rolled something that worked to clear the game, and then stuck to it. This would have been true last season but less so.

The problem I have with this is how many of us are going to play exclusively with the same people. The community is small enough that you will see the same players a lot if you do public games.(watch out for rasta in pubs, hes a pking asshole)

By forcing us to play with a set team you have forced us into private games with our set team.

I'm, not saying playing as a team is bad, but the logistics of it are. In the past seasons you could have gone solo/pub, but as a team you would have prospered more. Not everyone who plays this mod will play with their friends over the same time zone and etc... most of us just mingle in our pub games and try to get something going in a casual manner.

It's a casual game at heart. Yes the boss fights and etc can be intense and whatever but, it's still diablo 2, your going to still spend time running numbers and 'rolling grand charms in town'. By trying to make it more hardcore you cater to a much smaller population of players and kill any growth this mod could see outside of set clans/guilds/whatever playing it.

Now if your not part of a 'team' you will be stuck and suffer until a poison zon comes along and does meph for you.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:30 am 
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stars wrote:
It was well known by soulmancer and even warned about how these changes would effect balance, it was just ignored.. that was the main issue he had with the whole thing. When he stepped in and told blue not to do certain things, that's when blue got all pissy and wasn't happy. The only reason SM aloud this to happen was because he decided to step down and retire from the mod, so he let these guys take over.

I guess everyone needs to learn for themselves I know I have a hard time taking advice sometimes and need to learn it on my own.

While this may sound accurate, it really didn't go down that way.

There was lots of concern over these items which soulmancer voiced concern over:
1. Removing skill charms (huge uproar over this)
2. Reducing strength bonuses on items
3. Changing crushing blow to 1%
4. Increasing monster hitpoints by setting the game to players=6 (or something)
5. Reduction of resists & absorbs

Amplify damage didn't even get discussed much if I recall. Maybe it did and I just don't remember as skill changes weren't something I focused a lot of. I felt that the feedback Soulmancer was hearing on those items was being over-inflated (#4 wasn't even something we were going to do and yet there was this rumor going on that we were) based on people not taking the time to actually look at the changes. I told him so and said that I felt they were worth doing and that I was only interested in creating a patch that had significant gameplay impact rather than minor tweaks.

After some discussion in which I convinced him that:
1. I was compensating skill charm loss adequately (which I believe has been demonstrated to be true)
2. Reducing strength has worked out fairly well and has made Hell more challenging. Soulmancer requested that we increase the strength bonus on weapons to help melee out, which I felt was a good call so we boosted the modifier significantly to increase damage output of melee characters.
3. I agreed that 1% crushing blow was draconian and increased it to 4%.
4. I just had to convince Soulmancer monster Hitpoints were not in the direction we were going and that this was just a rumor.
5. Reducing resists and absorbs has made boss battles more "edge of the seat" for players in Hell - I think this has been demonstrated.

So in short - the things that Soulmancer said not to do, pretty much were non-issues. The most dramatic change that was done over the top was the adjustment to -physical resists through decrep and amplify damage. With that significant of a drop, monster resists probably should have been tweaked as well. Especially when combined with the unknown boss resist charms, this has made a nasty spiral for melee characters. Despite having more ways to get a chance to cast amplify damage (new gore-riders for example) - it just isn't that useful this patch and that has been a problem.

The other very controversial element - the Anti-Rush system - was implemented by Duff and I don't even know how much Soulmancer was aware of it. If Duff and Soulmancer talked about it, they didn't include me in. I know I reached out to Duff to ask him when a good time for a reset was about 3 weeks before I intended to push the patch live, and Duff told me at that point he thought he could code it in. So again - another controversial item that really didn't come up much.

The bottom line is that most of the "hot" items are things people just don't forsee. I had people crying up and down about how I was going to destroy the game by removing skill charms. Clearly that hasn't happened.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:26 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Too much to quote.


I will agree with you, the removal of skillers went flawlessly and was extremely well done. Casters seem to scale much more gradually instead of flattening out in early Hell and finally coming back strong once skillers are acquired. It was very well done.

On your 5th point though (the lowering of resists, not so much absorbs), I don't quite agree. It hasn't really added much to the fact of boss fights, but more so made getting maximum resists more tedious.
Now instead of being able to use Amethysts, Skulls, and other socketables in my shields, you're forced into Diamonds (or Resist All jewels, as they're better than even Uber Diamonds) if you want max resists. It's that, or load your inventory full of resist charms.
This is even more apparent for those who don't use a Shield, and it hurts them badly in that department.

The biggest problem I see with this is elemental damage has been balanced around having maximum resists. If it wasn't, I don't see a problem with having to choose max block over maximum resists, but as it is, elemental damage has been based around the knowledge you will ideally have max resists.


Otherwise, I'm glad you're realizing that melee does need some looking into. While I don't entirely agree that just toning down physical resists (or reverting physical pierce to it's original state, which is an easier balance fix, imo) is the only change they need, at this point I'll take what I can get.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:47 am 

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Abominae wrote:
On your 5th point though (the lowering of resists, not so much absorbs), I don't quite agree. It hasn't really added much to the fact of boss fights, but more so made getting maximum resists more tedious.

The biggest problem I see with this is elemental damage has been balanced around having maximum resists. If it wasn't, I don't see a problem with having to choose max block over maximum resists, but as it is, elemental damage has been based around the knowledge you will ideally have max resists.

Otherwise, I'm glad you're realizing that melee does need some looking into. While I don't entirely agree that just toning down physical resists (or reverting physical pierce to it's original state, which is an easier balance fix, imo) is the only change they need, at this point I'll take what I can get.
I agree here wholeheartedly. You're spot on with the skiller aspect.

Res is an issue that those who enjoy running a 2h char have had to struggle with even before the patch. I personally like some toons with 2h weapons just for variety and struggled at times with resistances. The reduction is sorbs would have been alright by itself but added with the res loss it is devastating for many 2h builds.

Abominae wrote:
Otherwise, I'm glad you're realizing that melee does need some looking into. While I don't entirely agree that just toning down physical resists (or reverting physical pierce to it's original state, which is an easier balance fix, imo) is the only change they need, at this point I'll take what I can get.
I think if the monster charms had the physical element removed from them at least for now we would have a valid test to see where that damage type would need adjusted if at all. Coupling in the change in amp that we currently have and it should be acceptable for that purpose. If it proves to much an adjustment then it can be fixed relatively easily.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:01 am 
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Abominae wrote:
but more so made getting maximum resists more tedious.

That was the goal. hell characters are likely to no longer have max resists - which consequently makes things a lot more difficult. I think this is a change that will take time for people to fully absorb before they determine how to deal with it. This patch is still very young and people haven't really banged on it completely.

Abominae wrote:
Otherwise, I'm glad you're realizing that melee does need some looking into.
I have realized it (and posted about it) for a long time now. You simply haven't been paying attention apparently.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:40 am 
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salvation is good yeah?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:48 am 
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Zikur wrote:
salvation is good yeah?

Very. As are the resist auras.
Putting medit on crafted amulets was done for several reasons, one of them though was to allow support paladins to have freedom to run a wide variety of auras.

Weaken is also a wonderful curse that does a nice job of simulating resists. Lets say you have a boss doing 5,000 pts of fire damage. Your party only has 50% fire resists, so they will take 2500 dmg. If they had 75% they would take 1250 dmg.

If your necro had cast Weaken though, that damage would have been dropped from 5,000 pts to 3750 and then cut in half by their resists to 1875 pts of damage. Pretty similar to the value they would get by having max resists.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:52 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Abominae wrote:
but more so made getting maximum resists more tedious.

That was the goal. hell characters are likely to no longer have max resists - which consequently makes things a lot more difficult. I think this is a change that will take time for people to fully absorb before they determine how to deal with it. This patch is still very young and people haven't really banged on it completely.

Abominae wrote:
Otherwise, I'm glad you're realizing that melee does need some looking into.
I have realized it (and posted about it) for a long time now. You simply haven't been paying attention apparently.


Gonna be an asshole when I point this out so deal with it.

Soulmancer specifically said there were concerns over the whole revamping process, he was pretty much ignored by the hardcore community of players who tried to balance it towards their style of play and not towards what Soulmancer intended. He built this mod from scratch on his own, and I think his advice should be heeded because it is wise, because we all respect him for his project, and because he knows what he is doing.

I think we can agree on the anti-rush change and the skill charms to caster items and soul shards. Those were interesting and well thought, and didn't have many unforseen effects because it was a give and take. You take skillcharms away and you give caster gear more skills.

The issue here is the 'melee can't tank or solo role'. How can you draw the line between what can and can't be solo'd? Considering they so slow for trash mobs, and the 'tank' role doesn't really exist outside of careful hardcore play (mod is made for softcore mind you, what extremes you have to go to in hardcore is your decision to play a boring char, and not the designer's decision).

Physical immunes exist to make melees impossible to solo a quest, imagine last season a zealer soloing hell baal, clearing all that trash and castle of destruction trash and going up against a stone skin glasya or something, not even gonna mention achmel (sanctuary takes off his resist so hes a joke with lifetap). You will be severely punished for trying to solo. The point is that this mod should encourage teamplay and not force you to do it, encourage not rushing and not enforce it (I like to enforce rushing though).

Here's what needs to be changed.

Put cb onto a skill if you don't want it on items. Frenzy- 1% cb every 4 hardpoints when using this attack. WW, zeal, fury, etc.. same thing. Now we don't have to put on crushing blow gear and just max the skill for a set amount of crushing blow. Notice that smite won't have it because it hits 100% so it won't be overpowered as it seemed last season.

Amp damage- bring it back to what it was last patch.

Items- You did well on this one, so keep it as it is and let it pan out as you said.

If your so stuck up with people soloing things, then you will ruin this because we will always find a way untill you make the game impossible and every boss immune to everything.

I think the current system of different immunities will force you to team up anyway, so why make it any different.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:43 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
Gonna be an asshole when I point this out so ignore it.

Fixed.

[quote="Rasta"Soulmancer ... was pretty much ignored[/quote]
Addressed this in the previous post because I didnt' want false rumors to be created (again). Soulmancer was not ignored and his advice was incorporated in to the patch. Anything else that is said is simply not true because I have a pretty good idea of when I ignore or don't ignore something since I would be the one doing the ignoring.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:33 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
That was the goal. hell characters are likely to no longer have max resists - which consequently makes things a lot more difficult. I think this is a change that will take time for people to fully absorb before they determine how to deal with it. This patch is still very young and people haven't really banged on it completely.


Zzzz.
Again, you're displaying what little knowledge you possess about this mod. Why is tedium fun? Why is limiting gear options a productive thing for the patch?
You completely ignore the fact that elemental damage has been based around having max resists, meaning, you should have max resists in Hells. Otherwise, it's just asking to die.
Have you played Hell? All of my characters in Hell have maximum resists. All it took was limiting my gear options by putting resist jewels in my sockets and having to load up on resist charms.
It added no new element of difficulty, all it added was tedium.
If that's what you want more of in your patch, go for it buddy.

blue_myriddn wrote:
I have realized it (and posted about it) for a long time now. You simply haven't been paying attention apparently.


Well I can see any bit of civility is lost on you. That's fine, I can understand you're frustrated over changing the dynamic of a class and being the last one to realize it.
Funny how you realized that without playing one to Hell, when all along you've claimed the patch just needed to be played more.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Soulmancer himself on nerfing melee before patch is implemented;

Soulmancer wrote:
Lets say. bump skill charm level up to 85 or 90... this will make them more rare and not findable until later... perhaps remove CB for a few key items that allow for very high level CB range.

Trust me, if you increase the game to 4x spawn, removed skillers, removed strength bonus off a lot of items and nerfed CB, and making it overall harder to survive hell difficulty will be frustratingly and stupidly difficult, which is not what I want to see. It's suppose to be challenging and encourge teamplay yes, but not next to impossible. No one would want to make melee characters if they're going to lose out a ton of strength and CB and be weaker with a 4x spawn because they'll become completely uneffective against trash mobs and not effective in boss fights anymore. If skillers are removed as well, this would require a huge re-balancing of all casting skills at the high range in order to offset the extreme drop in DPS...

-remove CB from a a few key items to avoid stacking up to overly high CB

-do not decrease strength bonus' much or at all, if you do make it slight. Cause in honesty, removing str from items is only going to be a damage nerf for melee classes. I doubt it will encourage more investement in strength hardpoints because high vit is still going to be required for survival, especially given that it will now be harder to survive in Hell difficulty, that would be a huge sacrifice- you can't do damage if you're dead . Unless you have some other change in regards to vit, hitpoints and strength to offset the change. either by more HP from vit or leveling up, or more damage from strength.

-increase the level of skill charms, if you plan on removing them you'll have to re-balance A LOT of the the skills at the high end range to compensate this end game.

Trust me as I've said before, balancing is a very fine line. even slight changes I've implemented in the past have caused one template to go from being useless to overpowered and vice versa... The more changes you make, the more balance testing and work there will be.

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:54 pm 
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i wonder if you actually read what you quoted.
I wonder if you actually know how to read come to think of it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:59 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
i wonder if you actually read what you quoted.
I wonder if you actually know how to read come to think of it.


No I quoted that because it is 100% irrelevant to this discussion and you are absolutely right, and melee isn't frustrating and tedious. /sarcasm

After days of arguing you still don't understand the main issue.

Melee
Sucks
Donkey
Balls

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:15 pm 
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In my opinion Leaf and the equal versions should be nerfed +3fire (+possible adds from stave +3fireball or firebolt for example) from an item that is available in act 1 norm is totally overpowered i think +2 would be enough

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Soulmancer's comments are about:

Crushing blow
(which was increased as per his recommendation)
Strength bonuses
(which ended up not being that big of a deal)
Skill charms
(which ended up being a complete non-issue)
4x spawn
(which was never even suggested, it is just that people like you post things they don't know about and then rumors get started)

So the stuff you quoted ended up all being taken care of either by following Soulmancer's suggestions or simply explaining to him that things were ok. IF Soulmancer had said "hey - your Amp changes are going to make Physical characters too weak", I probably would have looked in to that as well. He didn't though, so I didn't. I simply implemented what the community discussed here: background-image: url(../images/navbartop-bg.gif);

That is why what you quoted isn't what you think it is.

All your annoying post will do is start a new rumor that blue was all arrogant and ignored all of Soulmancer's concerns and ended up screwing up his mod which is really lame because Soulmancer spent years working on it and that jack ass blue ruined it with one patch. Can you understand how that is annoying (and obviously not true to anyone who can READ)?

I understand that melee has problems. In fact if you READ my first post, you will see that I state them out clearly.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:22 pm 
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I'm sorry, literacy did not come easy to me, in fact, I am the only illiterate person in Canada. If I was actually literate Canada would then have a 100% literacy rate, but it will stay at 99.99993% for now.

On to serious discussion, about my 'annoying posts'.

All I am saying is this. Look at amp and melee in general, compare it with a poison zon. Run it in single player. Come to your own conclusions.

Your solution would be to nerf the shit out of poison zons because it makes it 'too easy'. Your mindset is not healthy for balance for the goals of HU that Soulmancer set down when he created it and what attracted so many people.

You are not considering buffing anything at all. Your solution is nerf nerf nerf cuz this is too easy, and by doing this you are ruining it, and making it one dimensional.

Question, how many barbs and 'tanks' are there in the top SOFTCORE team. 0. None at all. A team of lvl 99+, none of which is melee. This is the entire sum of all my arguments, if you can answer me why this is then I will shut the fuck up and sit down.

Softcore is the key word here because this is not a mod balanced for hardcore and this 'team play' that exists in hardcore. If you want people to play as a 'team' which exists in hardcore then LEAVE IT because it works because those who want to play as a 'team' will do so and win in hardcore.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:46 pm 

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@Rasta, we understand what you're trying to tell us. In fact, I made a flow chart about that. Here it is:

Image

Anyway. My suggestions are based on some cases.

Case 1: We want to make barbs be able to solo hell bosses without requiring skill.

Solutions:
1- We can make all bosses undead so sanctuary aura ownz dem like 15 year old virgin girls.
2- We can give battle cry and blade a good amount of lower physical resistance, so barb ownz again.
3- We can make weapons with "ignore target's physical resistance" bonus.

Results:
This realm turns into battle.net and nobody will like the outcome except Rasta.

Case 2: We want to make both physical AND elemagic damage dependant on having a team focused.

Solutions:
1- We can remake amp so that a necromancer with 10ish hard point investments can break all physical immunities in the game but a barb with double wands can not.
2- We can also remake lower resist accordingly.
3- We can make a paladin offensive aura that requires Holy Shock and something else with the name of Holy Shit. That aura slightly reduces physical resistance. Good enough to invest 1 point, bad enough not to overtake necromancers. OK, this might be a bad idea. But, you got the point, right?

Results: Rasta leaves the realm AND forums.

Your move, blue.

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mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Quote:
best thing that has happened to these boards in awhile.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:51 pm 
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RushDaddy wrote:
3- We can make a paladin offensive aura that requires Holy Shock and something else with the name of Holy Shit. That aura slightly reduces physical resistance. Good enough to invest 1 point, bad enough not to overtake necromancers. OK, this might be a bad idea. But, you got the point, right?


LOL

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:05 pm 

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Rushdaddy for president


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:55 am 
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wonderful! The HolyShit aura clearly is the best idea heard so far, so I went ahead and made the skill icon for it in preparation for it to be implemented

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:30 am 
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Haha, excellent :D

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:38 am 

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Haha thanks everyone. Anyway, Fanaticism can have 1% lower physical resist per hard point as well.

The only problem right now is physical resistance thing. But there are some issues:
1- Characters that rely on physical damage can't have dependable sources of lower physical resist. But giving them sources of lower physical resist to some extent is essential. Just like paladin has convi(n)ction, which is an alternate source of lower elemagic resistance to lower resist curse, physical damage needs same kind of source. But, if this source is a heavy one like convi(n)ction, realm will be packed with auratic zealots (I will get one as the first person).

2- Even though there is enough amount of lower physical res, it's not as reasonable as elemagic (Andy has 3 digit physical resistance and -50% fire resistance for example). This means that boss resistances should also be rearranged. But in such manner: 10 points of lower resist and 10 points of amp should be enough for both physical and elemagic resistance.

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mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:28 am 
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Rasta wrote:
Question, how many barbs and 'tanks' are there in the top SOFTCORE team. 0. None at all. A team of lvl 99+, none of which is melee. This is the entire sum of all my arguments, if you can answer me why this is then I will shut the fuck up and sit down.

That "team" wasnt made from the start, it was originally including a rabies/fury druid and a Fire one, sorry fine euro gamers we ditched you cuz of timezone problems. (aka killing nm baal at 6am after 20 hours of consecutive play)
The psnmancer was met at norm a5 when he msg'd to give me an holy cross for which i barely could give a few crappy gems.<thankfull me> He was running with his bro the legendary wind dru at that moment we joined forces.

So the "team (which is not closed or exclusive)" was now composed of: meteor sorc, poison nec, wind dru, and healer pal. edit: fire dru was still with us at that moment* as well as some other fine people which were on and off the party in norm and nm in our pub games. (yes a few of our games were private, as i have some difficulty coping with the need to explain the game to neophytes while being in the rush of a try to "win" the ladder.(i'm competitive at times lol))

Yes this is a casual based game, having a team owning the ladder is due maybe to the fact we LOVE this game and passed like 15 hours+ by day enjoying it, how could that not fly through the ladder faster than casual playing people playing it for a few hours then getting back to other Real life things? Btw yes in winter videogames is my life, so stop saying get a life, its a big part of it, so what? I still love my girly, read philosophy, ride bmx and so on.

So please stop polluting this part of my life.

I resisted the temptation to insert 20 feet tall wall of insults back to you because I (like you it seems) try to life the god way (staying zen, not giving back to anger, etc. =)

But attacking the leading team and saying in another post that i didnt take time to quote that this game is designed to be casual deserves some winding of ur dying clock. Whatever the balance and casual play focus, nothing will prevent a team from owning the game, especially if those guys play-sleep-play-eat-play-eat-play-play-play for the reset time.

To clearly answer your question, we didnt have any barb tank in our team cuz we didnt meet any, and we were lacking bo and some good tank yes. Where were you at that time? Already busy spreading hate all over the forums???

So
Rasta wrote:
shut the fuck up and sit down.
, SON.

Ps. yes i am trying to destroy the part of you that sucks, so all that remains is that shiny little thing in you that we all still love. And i'm ready to walk hand in hand with you when you will stop this crazyness, but until then i shall continue to do my best to eradicate that foulness trying to take over you.
I truly hope you win that inner fight.

PPs i reread me and laugh so hard, enjoy it folks :D

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:40 am 
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there's not such thing like lower phys res. Seems you like theorycraft about things you have no idea.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:01 am 

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Steel wrote:
there's not such thing like lower phys res.
Then what does amp do? What I meant was such a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:34 pm 
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amp is just -dr%, you can add it only to aura that affects other mobs, not you, for skills and such you'd have to use passive pierce which isn't not gonna be added, as noone was interested.
anyway you could add it to conv, it affects only mobs, to battle cry too.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:57 pm 
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@Dieu, I'm sorry to cause any misunderstanding, I did not intend to attack the leading team, I wanted to congralute you guys for being the leading team and putting that effort into that, I think I worded that incorrectly and I am kind of outspoken when I type, and I want to apologize for that.

What I meant when I referred to your team is that you did not have a char relying solely on physical damage and for good reason.

What I am trying to say is this.

Anti-rush= greatest change ever. If chars were balanced (psn vs melee), we would be able to implement it on nightmare too so people wouldn't be stuck.

I think this mod would have the best of both worlds, the best of your team being the top dogs by putting that time and effort into it, and me and pubs playing through, slowly and steadily, getting to hell a5 in like 2-3 weeks, maybe a month depends, instead of being stuck in a3 nm because I like Barbarians.

About the part of me that sucks, well, you helped me bring the me out of my ego. Just want to say that it's frustrating playing a barb to lvl 98 and that kind of set me off like a bomb after 2 weeks of straight playing barb.

Thanks again for helping me stop the flame war that I started.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:35 pm 
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@rasta great post ftw:) im glad for the little i could do, it vented me out lol.

Now lets continue that brainstorm on how to ameliorate the destiny of phys melee fighters :D

Im really laughing at myself, i take it soooo seriously but after all, a game is a part of the real life...

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Man you wouldn't believe how I angry I was a few days ago. It was slowly building up as I tried all the things I would have done last ladder on my barb, and get punished for expecting something even close to that past result.

Like losing death craft in itself, it was a small blow but it struck deep, and from there I just got more and more frustrated, untill I became a rageaholic when fully geared and trying to justify my time of 2-3 weeks playing this char, other then being manly and chopping stuff.

I would start with this. Don't hate on the people who changed it, now that we are calm and not angry we can make a thread for everyone to voice their opinion on what they experienced, and suggest a fix patch.

All I would want to see changed in this fix patch would be to bring back amp. Leave all the other nerfs for now, but bring back amp so we have something on the map that we can build a melee char that isn't god, but at the same time isn't worthless.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:07 pm 
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fix the res leave ctc amp weak.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:23 pm 
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all that needs to be changed is bring back 40%-45% amp on ctc and let necro get to 70% if he maxes it.

Gore riders, 3% chance to cast 40% amp
Atmas, 6% chance to cast 45% amp
Amp skill, 30-70%, 2 pnts per lvl

we can't really test melee if they still do 0 damage after the patch, and this lets us run a team without a necro for once.

If you limit melee on still relying on 20 pnt amp necro then you just cut their options on who they can roll with. LR is great and all but casters do fine without it if there isn't a resist to be broken that can be.

Fixing the physical resist would take a lot more effort then simply putting amp back where it belongs, and gives us breathing room for time to test for a real balance patch

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:58 am 

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Rasta wrote:
all that needs to be changed is bring back 40%-45% amp on ctc and let necro get to 70% if he maxes it.

Gore riders, 3% chance to cast 40% amp
Atmas, 6% chance to cast 45% amp
Amp skill, 30-70%, 2 pnts per lvl
I have to disagree here. Raising amp on a few items won't help all physical builds, why limit the choices in gear even further than it already is?

Rasta wrote:
we can't really test melee if they still do 0 damage after the patch, and this lets us run a team without a necro for once.

If you limit melee on still relying on 20 pnt amp necro then you just cut their options on who they can roll with. LR is great and all but casters do fine without it if there isn't a resist to be broken that can be.

Fixing the physical resist would take a lot more effort then simply putting amp back where it belongs, and gives us breathing room for time to test for a real balance patch
First of all any change to amp would require a patch to implement. Altering the monster charms(MC) is serverside not clientside and therefore much easier to do. Leaving amp as is and scaling back the MC would be a better choice imo. Both accomplish similar things, one takes less time to complete. Problem is in either case bosses can become soloable by most any physical char, not a good thing. This is a team mod, not how easy can I solo any boss I choose. Choice is serverside fix or everyone has to dl a new patch, hmmmm such an easy choice.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:07 am 
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kwikster wrote:
Problem is in either case bosses can become soloable by most any physical char, not a good thing. This is a team mod, not how easy can I solo any boss I choose. Choice is serverside fix or everyone has to dl a new patch, hmmmm such an easy choice.


The problem with this being is that a lot of characters can solo bosses. There is a long list of them.

I don't know when it was decided that characters with great gear cannot solo bosses that are lower level than them or even the same level. Why am I spending all this time getting the best gear if it's not going to do anything for me?

This ladder we did Hell Baal (in HC, for anyone who wants to make the comparison) with a very raggedly geared team. Barely half of us had level 95 unique items, yet we were still able to do it with a relatively smooth run-through.
If we were end-game geared to the max, it would have gone from smooth run to a complete cake-walk.

I know for a fact that there are plenty characters who can solo Hell bosses. Balancing melee around that is silly because so many different builds are capable of doing the very same thing.

Blue may argue it requires a lot of skill to solo areas and solo bosses. Yes, it does. But in this current patch, it takes skill (or knowledge, which is what D2, not just HU, is based upon) to solo bosses as a caster. It isn't viable to solo bosses as a melee character.
Why let a plethora of elemental characters be able to solo bosses in end-game gear and then yell that melee is unbalanced when they can accomplish the same feat in end-game gear?

EDIT: For any of those in confusion, that last paragraph is in reference to people calling melee OP last patch for their ability to solo bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:09 am 
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I don't know of ANY melee that could solo bosses unless they were SUPER pimped. Kevin mentioned a smiter soloing bosses. Not sure if I'd called lvl 60+ BO, lvl 60+ oak, and 90%+amp form a necro soloing...but eh. Also, those smiters needed like 5 ber runes and war. When you find 5 ber runes and runes for war....you better be able to take out a boss with 90%amp, and uber bo/oak.

kwikster wrote:
Problem is in either case bosses can become soloable by most any physical char, not a good thing.


ORLY?

So....3% CB from endgame weapons is gonna WTF own bosses? Or is it because melee's can't leech off of most bosses? Or is it the lack of deadly strike thats gonna make bosses soloable?

Will some people be able to solo with a melee if the situation were "fixed"....yes. Will it be a cake walk? No. Those same people that have enough skill to solo with a melee are currently soloing with zons/necs/druids/sorcs instead atm. Why? Because no matter how good you are, how much you know about the game, or how well you can crunch numbers to make your melee as godly as possible....a melee will NEVER solo a boss in this current state. To go a little further, without a necro with maxed amp, a barb won't even do damage to a boss.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:40 pm 
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If anyones wondering...

My lvl 40 golemmancer, maxed amp, +53% (lvl 33 amp i think)

Would this be enough to do some dmg???


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:27 pm 
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I think what we should do is come to a consensus to what should be fixed for melee, because even though they were really strong last ladder, it was only with the ultimate gear setup that you were soloing bosses.

It would be in the best interest of this mod to bring in a 'melee buff' fix patch to help us further balance, to help bring variety back into the mod, and give a reason for the new influx of players to keep playing instead of quitting because of the 9001 hours they put trying to get their fury druid past NM a2, only to finally understand they are an disgusting piece of crap and it's not their fault their char sucks. (not 100% their fault in that matter)

First and foremost, you have to take Little Timmy on his zealot into consideration, not saying let total noobs have it easy, just saying don't nerf the shit out of something because it was used by players on the hardcore realm to make the game 'less challenging'. If something in hardcore makes it too easy to not die, well, it's your choice to use it or not, for example, the enchantress. Enchant isn't even a build anymore, reason? Because hardcore used it too much to rush chars that died. This mod is not made for hardcore, it's your choice when you play hardcore and it's your choice to play with the enchantress. Anti-rush will curb this anyway.

How to balance something 101. Give and take.

want to take away skillers? We give skills on gear.
want to take survivability? Then give damage. Not the other way around.

Leeching too much cuz u do too much dmg? reduce drain effectiveness.

If you can't balance something then tweak it. Reduce the amount of %CB you can get to 4% on 1 hand and 8% 2 hand wpns (gloves boot belt included, for example, blood gloves 4% cb, 2 handed maul 4% cb).

Tweak amp instead of destroying it. Amp too good? reduce by 10-15%, no more because the damage potential this skill gives is multiplied drastically because it pierces huge resist instead of enhancing damage.

Finally, stop making everything rely on the necro. What if someone just doesn't like necros, yet are still forced to have one in the party. Tweaking the boss charm is a fine change if you know how to do it, then we can leave amp where it is. If tweaking the charm slightly, enough that I can actually DAMAGE fucking hell andy, will help us understand what the role of a fully geared uber-barb lvl 98 with max dmg skills ,ridiculous defense damage reduce and resistance, and 10k life is, then by all means do it.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:38 am 

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on a separate note: remove the fact that CE shares cooldown with blades/golems.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:45 am 
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I only really needed bo for LoS last patch on that pally. He was super twinked late game though (38k life after buffs, 12k before buffs and 20k with self buffs, maxblock and 150k+def). For sammy he didn't need to bother with amp, sanctuary + weaken proc on gloves was better. No need for lifebuffs at that stage.

I never got a chance to finish him and I left him at level 97, I had a 190+ life heart and sammy brain for him at 99 but grinding levels sucks ass after i took my healer to 101 and my sorc to 99. Fuck doing that 3 times ;).

dropping the dr% on the boss charm will put the phys res of those bosses back to about what it was at with ctc amp before and make a maxed amp more powerful. That in turn will make up ( a little) for the lower cb values available.

@senko, that was 100% my fault, i forgot to change it back at the last minute. It'll be fixed as soon as there can be an update.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:34 am 
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Quote:
He was super twinked late game though (38k life after buffs, 12k before buffs and 20k with self buffs, maxblock and 150k+def).

Quote:
dropping the dr% on the boss charm will put the phys res of those bosses back to about what it was at with ctc amp before and make a maxed amp more powerful.
Win. Btw. did that paladin have like 20+%cb? gg no re.
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For sammy he didn't need to bother with amp, sanctuary + weaken proc on gloves was better.
For sammy or way to sammy? bcos he's phys immune and he's not undead so I dunno what you meant.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:46 pm 
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So if we leave amp where it is and tweak boss charm so bosses have <100% phys resist?

First we have to know what is too much buffing. This is what needs to be tested. For example, if boss resistance goes to like 60% and you put a max amp on it, it's too much. Without crushing blow however, you will have to use actual numbers and not a % of bosses HP to take him down. Therefore you can compare to an elemental char, also consider how much damage bosses do in melee combat compared to sitting back dodging spells etc.

Secondly we have to know if a fully twinked char is allowed to solo. Consider that to get your fully twinked gear you will have to farm and farm and do all these quests on your char in the first place. Gonna refer to Abominae's post on this, how they did hell baal with shitty items but good teamwork. Make it clear that you can solo if you want, but it will be slow and arduous because you need the gear and you need to kill trash on melee, which is painful (but fun if your barb is manly).

If we remove boss phys resist, since there is no crushing blow to really speak of (gris caddy 5x ber?), we will at least have an idea where melee stands with just pure dps.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Could mercs be looked into? It's hard to keep max res on them with 2h weapons and for example a3 poison merc could have his poison attack removed, it does 0 dmg really, same for rabies on a5 it prevents dru rabies, a3 light has this nova doing 0 dmg too.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Could mercs be looked into? It's hard to keep max res on them with 2h weapons

Then use 1h weapons? Not sure I understand the argument

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:53 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Steel wrote:
Could mercs be looked into? It's hard to keep max res on them with 2h weapons

Then use 1h weapons? Not sure I understand the argument
can't do, 1h aren't manly for a2/a5 mercs and A1 don't have 1h weapon and few lightning bolts kills her in sec. Is that argument good enough ?


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:01 pm 
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A1 mercs then? A3 mercs can use 1h weapons with no problem.
A1 mercs get life leech to help them survive, so no I don't see the problem. Still not a compelling argument. You are just telling me, not providing clear information - so that isn't an argument.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Quote:
You are just telling me, not providing clear information - so that isn't an argument.
Well, I'm not telling YOU, I just asked if these could be looked. I dunno who's in command here. And about 2nd problem with "broken" skills?


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:08 pm 

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what i see is the big issue is that a melee absolutely requires a necro with top-notch amp to really be viable in hell, whereas a poison char can just stack pierce gear. the real big hit here was that all sources of proc amp (atmas, brand, goreriders) are significantly weaker than before. lvl 1 amp used to be 50%. what is it now 25% +1% per lvl? that is MASSIVE considering there are no other sources of physical pierce in the game. i used to roll melees with brand/atmas and the pierce was 60% + without a necro around. the same gear setup now will barely yield 30% pierce at best. combine that with the massive deadly strike nerf and crushing blow nerf, and the melee is a relic of the past.

a melee is still powerful, and indeed quite viable under the right circumstances. however it is just far more efficient to build something else. sure if you have a whole team centered around supporting the melee he can still do his role. however a single well-geared poison char can pretty much handle most bosses on his own without much struggle in hell. anything the psn char can't kill a meteor sorc or other elemental character can destroy fairly quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:20 pm 
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yep - Pious sums up pretty much how I feel. I appreciate that he is able to confirm it with his gaming experiences.

There are two solutions:

The wrong way
Restore Amp to its previous values. This makes amp REQUIRED for melee characters to be effective and anytime something is REQUIRED, that's a bad thing.

The right way
Reduce monster physical resists & drain efficiencies to compensate for the Amp reduction. This means that melee are still effective when they don't have Amp, are pretty good when they are able to proc amp from an item and really kick ass when they are in a party that has amp running.

Seems like a no-brainer to me and I am not sure why there is such confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:23 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
yep - Pious sums up pretty much how I feel. I appreciate that he is able to confirm it with his gaming experiences.

There are two solutions:

The wrong way
Restore Amp to its previous values. This makes amp REQUIRED for melee characters to be effective and anytime something is REQUIRED, that's a bad thing.

The right way
Reduce monster physical resists & drain efficiencies to compensate for the Amp reduction. This means that melee are still effective when they don't have Amp, are pretty good when they are able to proc amp from an item and really kick ass when they are in a party that has amp running.

Seems like a no-brainer to me and I am not sure why there is such confusion.


I agree with this, but I would consider the implications of nerfing the boss charm since Terry put them there to balance the game on 50% amp.

For now I say do it because everyone understands the problem and why melee sucks, but be ready to make any further changes on AMP and physical resists in general, however since this is a test patch, and we have poison zons soloing hell baal, then why not. Let's make little timmy and his zealot, and the top barb on ladder, and everyone else happy so we can stop calling each other names.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:15 am 
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Quote:
There are two solutions:

The wrong way
Restore Amp to its previous values. This makes amp REQUIRED for melee characters to be effective and anytime something is REQUIRED, that's a bad thing.
Terry knew AMP would be overused on everything thus he made this charm with +50%phys res to cut it on bosses but keep ok for trash. Why don't ask him for one time instead of making theory after theory? You, whole dev team, knew nothing about moding back then so you obviously fucked thing, now with little knowledge gained you're trying to defend it saying blabla is too high, ofc it is, because it wasn't reduced, if it wasn't reduced then it was ok with old amp. But for some folks, who already quit HU, amp was too high not even knowing CB played main role on UNTWINKED chars. So I don't care if Pure's din on 97lvl with possibly the best gear in game soloes andy and says "something is wrong I shouldn't solo it, only teamwork should kill 84lvl a1 boss"
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Seems like a no-brainer to me and I am not sure why there is such confusion.
Nice knowing you're willing to put 10h testing every boss. Hope we will get another small update before 2012.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:23 am 
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steel, you know what you are doing with the text files, you do it or stop bitching like a 12 year old girl.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:23 am 
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Rasta wrote:
I agree with this, but I would consider the implications of nerfing the boss charm since Terry put them there to balance the game on 50% amp.

I'd recommend leaving the charm pretty much untouched since it spans 3 difficulties and focus on the monsters properties instead.

Rasta wrote:
For now I say do it

Sure - that's what I already said. I don't think it is going to happen for several months though. So people can chill out and just play the mod.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:38 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
steel, you know what you are doing with the text files, you do it or stop bitching like a 12 year old girl.
:) I'll stop bitching and continue abusing game.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:59 pm 
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i dont get it, we're doing a half year reset? if it's going to reset bi annually there should be an announcement or a sticky put up soon. I'd like to know as it will likely alter my playstyle.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
i dont get it, we're doing a half year reset? if it's going to reset bi annually there should be an announcement or a sticky put up soon. I'd like to know as it will likely alter my playstyle.

That is my recommendation. Until Soulmancer chimes in though, who knows what will happen

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:24 pm 
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that patch is boring because of >

u cant solo bosses with melee char and maybe 1k dmg berserk eth rolled axe perfect socket and gosu other items like war... etc

iso CB ! i wanna do maybe conc barb or smiter pala for fun !

maybe u can do most nm bosses without healer
but hell ? this healer preority sucks , healer here healer there... boring !

necro poison to strong , necro magic dmg to strong
drui poison dmg to strong
drui fire dmg to strong
assn fire dmg to strong
Pala FoH dmg should be more
maybe fix Holybolt idk

that patch is good because of that changes >

no skiller , i like that
change on uniques - like that too ! more plz ! add more Helm - Gloves - boots maybe
more crazy golddrop RW´s - for helm boots maybe
more RW for Helm - Shield ?

ok thats maybe more what i think about this mod , i played 5 ladders here and i miss melee playing i see a good stuffed pala in hell diff how long is he fighting vs. bosses and thats sucks hard , that is not Diablo2 sorry !

only Caster chars playing is getting bored , and i know change something to make it better is hard too , we all want balancing.

i hope u find a way because i like that mod and some guys here.

have a nice day


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
i dont get it, we're doing a half year reset? if it's going to reset bi annually there should be an announcement or a sticky put up soon. I'd like to know as it will likely alter my playstyle.


Yeah there shouldn't be a bi annual reset for this one, if they want to put out a patch to fix the obvious problems they should patch without a reset to let people test there work right away with high level characters.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:11 pm 
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IDK where the theory came about that everytime you update anything there has to be a reset.

I remember back in the day, getting several updates before we got a reset. Worked out just fine, as long as there were no major item changes.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Certainly doesn't need to be a reset - I simply recommend a reset. I believe this opens up the greatest possibilities in adjustments and prevents limitations. I like to let people know well in advance as to when a reset is, so rather than deciding 6 months from now that a balance change would need a reset and that one should occur, I was preempting that and giving plenty of advance notice.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:21 pm 
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ok here some inspiration...

Image

maybe it helps to balance something :D i can post more if u want


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:04 pm 
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post more what?

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:24 pm 

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I like the FU rune :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:27 pm 

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Hello all, been playing this mod for about 3 weeks now.. so i'm not some pro or anything, but here is my two cents:

The phys immune on bosses needs to be fixed.. not next ladder, not a year from now, ASAP. I'm not just saying this because i play a melee class my self, which does seem kind of bias, but honestly playing on the server, there is a HUGE! issue with class balance. Like stated already a million times, poison characters just have it way to easy... not only are they a range class, but can kill hell act bosses in seconds. Honestly though, its not even just poison (although that is the most overpowered), its basically any form of elemental damage. Physical characters just have it rough here, and personally, it is VERY discouraging to play here like this, seeing as how 90% of the community re-rolls to 1 of them overpowered classes, and making so many different classes and builds completely useless.

Now, i'm not saying let physical characters completely demolish hell act bosses.. but at least give us some shine against them. We usually die the most for the fact we're melee and have to get in their faces to do any damage at all, and when we do, the damage we do is basically equivalent to hitting them with a wet noodle.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:09 pm 
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drazaer wrote:
Hello all, been playing this mod for about 3 weeks now.. so i'm not some pro or anything, but here is my two cents:

The phys immune on bosses needs to be fixed.. not next ladder, not a year from now, ASAP. I'm not just saying this because i play a melee class my self, which does seem kind of bias, but honestly playing on the server, there is a HUGE! issue with class balance. Like stated already a million times, poison characters just have it way to easy... not only are they a range class, but can kill hell act bosses in seconds. Honestly though, its not even just poison (although that is the most overpowered), its basically any form of elemental damage. Physical characters just have it rough here, and personally, it is VERY discouraging to play here like this, seeing as how 90% of the community re-rolls to 1 of them overpowered classes, and making so many different classes and builds completely useless.

Now, i'm not saying let physical characters completely demolish hell act bosses.. but at least give us some shine against them. We usually die the most for the fact we're melee and have to get in their faces to do any damage at all, and when we do, the damage we do is basically equivalent to hitting them with a wet noodle.


I Really feel pity because I was in the same boat as you. Playing HU again, addicted to D2, and then, running into incessant bureaucracy from the people Terry left in charge.

I will offer my suggestion.

Take your D2 cd, and smash it with a hammer. Then delete all the files. This mod isn't worth your time anymore. Back in the day there was balance and it was fun for 99% of the people who played, and we had balance and challenges.

The mentality of the people developing this mod right now is this.

'If you don't have this and this and this specific skill set to this in your team of 4 who play for 18 hours a day, you can't get past Nightmare act 2 and should suffer and rot there newb'.

What a steaming pile of smelly bureaucratic shit.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:02 pm 

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all though most people completely get on Rasta's case about the melee complaints, lets face facts.. he is 100% right.

I know this mod is not ment to be solo'ed, and is suppose to be party friendly, hence the strong influence to work as a team, but in the end, it's a game, is it not?... games are suppose to be fun, not something you have to play 10+ hours a day and play 1 specific way to do anything. The whole reason why this game has 7 different classes and can make so many different builds, is the fact there is suppose to be diversity amongst the different characters playing the game. In saying that, this complete nerf to melee characters totally ruins that, with 99% of the players either re-rolling poison chars, or just quitting because they can't do shit all. The whole uniqueness to each individual player is completely gone.

Now lets face facts; Melee characters not only have to be in attack-able range from bosses to do damage (which means our survivability is ALREADY lower than casters/range classes), we also do absolutely NO damage and hit like a wet noodle, AND! we receive basically no leach from bosses either. Some1 please tell me, where is the balance?..

Every paladin I've seen on this mod so far basically rolls a healer. Every barbarian I've seen resorted to just being a hitting dummy tank, or are just there to hork. I've seen maybe 1-2 bow zons/bone necros, and about 50 different poison zons/necros, EACH. Nice diversity.

Playing a melee class on this mod is honestly nothing but frustration. Its annoying as hell playing, watching how poison characters can solo honestly everything in HELL (which i find ridiculously funny, seeing as how its been stated before this mod, ESPECIALLY hell, should NOT be able to be solo'ed), while when melee characters reach there, we are nothing but hitting-dummies. I love this mod so far, best times I've had playing this game, but the physical damage issue REALLY needs to be fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:01 am 
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I think a physical damage fix is coming, since it's obviously an issue.

The problem is that I have no idea who is in charge of the patch and changes and everything, all I know is that Terry resigned because he has great design and development skills and is working on something else I presume, or doing something equally awsome (British Columbia is a great place to live)

I'm not trying to alienate the community, I'm not trying to piss anyone off. All I am trying to do is understand who is in charge of the patch and the mod if Terry isn't, and reasonably criticize what went badly with this patch. It looks like some of the super hardcore mentalities are starting to thaw when they see the melee inbalance.

I don't enjoy playing hardcore on this mod. I enjoy the same kick I got from diablo 2 when it first came out and then on bnet. What Terry did with diablo 2 is that he kept that same kick, but removed all the downsides (bad balance, hammerbots, hacks, dupes, bnet, game too easy(but not tedious and impossible)). All I am asking is that for wheover is in charge to look at what Terry did well and what attracted so many peoples to the mod.

This mod didn't come out 2 months ago, it came out 6 years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:09 am 

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Rasta wrote:
I think a physical damage fix is coming, since it's obviously an issue.

The problem is that I have no idea who is in charge of the patch and changes and everything, all I know is that Terry resigned because he has great design and development skills and is working on something else I presume, or doing something equally awsome (British Columbia is a great place to live)

I'm not trying to alienate the community, I'm not trying to piss anyone off. All I am trying to do is understand who is in charge of the patch and the mod if Terry isn't, and reasonably criticize what went badly with this patch. It looks like some of the super hardcore mentalities are starting to thaw when they see the melee inbalance.

I don't enjoy playing hardcore on this mod. I enjoy the same kick I got from diablo 2 when it first came out and then on bnet. What Terry did with diablo 2 is that he kept that same kick, but removed all the downsides (bad balance, hammerbots, hacks, dupes, bnet, game too easy(but not tedious and impossible)). All I am asking is that for wheover is in charge to look at what Terry did well and what attracted so many peoples to the mod.

This mod didn't come out 2 months ago, it came out 6 years ago.


Very well said, I could not agree more. I wish it was still last patch where every build was playable. Now all you need is something poison and can solo mostly everything. Someone needs to step up and change this mod or revert back to last patch.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:13 pm 
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cause the poison problem will be fixed if we revert !

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:43 pm 
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F Rasta.

I'm starting a new HU club named F Rasta and his F Barbarian.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:43 pm 
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I hope a hotfix can be implemented for physical damage.

This patch was a dramatic change from last patch. There was bound to be problems and imbalances, even Blizzard doesn't get their patches out without issues. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:21 pm 

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Trafalgar wrote:
I hope a hotfix can be implemented for physical damage.

This patch was a dramatic change from last patch. There was bound to be problems and imbalances, even Blizzard doesn't get their patches out without issues. :roll:
There usually is, especially when massive changes are made. Blizzard's most major change was to add synergies and immunities in the 1.09 patch. Yes, there were some issues, but they were lessened by an extensive beta test even after their own in house testing. That's the real difference. Making wholesale massive changes without a true beta test is what we are currently living. Think about this, Terry suggested making smaller changes so as to not cause huge balance issues that we have.

Nerfing cb+amp= inability to dmg hell act bosses with physical dmg
DR nerf = lower survivability when tanking until endgame gear
res nerf = need to specialize gear to max res(more difficult for 2h builds)
STR nerf = more str spent to equip resulting in less life

There are more but these are the bigger ones. Think like this, before lvl86 there is no armor with more than 10%dr. Those at lvl 86+ need 176+str to even wear. No weapon anywhere has more than 4% cb, amp maxes at around -54% to phys res. Most early to mid game items lost res compared to last patch. Combining all the changes made and saying "we asked for testers" is bull. If you don't have time to test what you create, don't create. Simple philosophy.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:08 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
There usually is, especially when massive changes are made. Blizzard's most major change was to add synergies and immunities in the 1.09 patch. Yes, there were some issues, but they were lessened by an extensive beta test even after their own in house testing. That's the real difference. Making wholesale massive changes without a true beta test is what we are currently living. Think about this, Terry suggested making smaller changes so as to not cause huge balance issues that we have.

Beta testing for this patch was done. From what I've read on the forums the beta testing was openly conducted for community feedback, but not everyone participated. From my reading it was "more than could be expected" but it wasn't all that many participants. You can't expect the developers to test EVERYTHING. Beta testing also lasted for months...

Quote:
Nerfing cb+amp= inability to dmg hell act bosses with physical dmg

Nerfing cb+amp isn't the problem. The physical resistance on the boss charm is the issue. Go here to see the charm stats: http://blue.arimyth.com/BossResists.html
Quote:
DR nerf = lower survivability when tanking until endgame gear
res nerf = need to specialize gear to max res(more difficult for 2h builds)
STR nerf = more str spent to equip resulting in less life

You apparently are under the assumption every character should have every defensive aspect covered along with great offense. If choosing your gear is to hard you can always quit. :lol:

Quote:
There are more but these are the bigger ones. Think like this, before lvl86 there is no armor with more than 10%dr. Those at lvl 86+ need 176+str to even wear. No weapon anywhere has more than 4% cb, amp maxes at around -54% to phys res. Most early to mid game items lost res compared to last patch. Combining all the changes made and saying "we asked for testers" is bull. If you don't have time to test what you create, don't create. Simple philosophy.

I bet all of this is forcing you to party. :roll: Funny how all those problems you listed actually make a challenging environment intended for parties.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Nerfing cb+amp isn't the problem. The physical resistance on the boss charm is the issue. Go here to see the charm stats: http://blue.arimyth.com/BossResists.html


Boss physical resists were not an issue with the original Amplify Damage. Boss physical resists were balanced around the fact CB still existed and Amplify Damage could pierce up to 90%.
So yes, nerfing amp and CB created issues with melee damage.

Trafalgar wrote:
You apparently are under the assumption every character should have every defensive aspect covered along with great offense. If choosing your gear is to hard you can always quit. :lol:


Except casters hardly need defensive aspects covered as they can take out a boss a screen away. Also, this game was balanced around having maximum resists. Ordinarily an attack that will hit you for 33%-50% of your life will easily 1 shot you without maximum resists.

The main issue with gear in this patch is everything is less bang for your buck. Want significant absorbs? Get ready to sacrifice 2-3 gear slots to piece together a measly 15%. Want great DR? Be prepared to inch your way up with 5% DR on end-game items (who have huge strength requirements or are expensive as hell EX: Ber being reduced to 5% instead of 10%)
Don't tell me how you plan to cover your ass using a two-handed weapon with a class who doesn't have built-in DR or resists. Maybe run Salvation? Since this point of the patch is to promote team-play. Except there's a difference between team play and relying on another class to make my build viable.

Also, the str changes still primarily effect melee instead of casters. The majority of gear that gave great +str was melee gear. Most casters can wear whatever they feel with a base of 30-40, while good luck scraping up enough strength for something like nerfed Shadow Dancers without awesome crafts and an assload of base strength.

Trafalgar wrote:
I bet all of this is forcing you to party. :roll: Funny how all those problems you listed actually make a challenging environment intended for parties.


In this patch, having a melee in your party is similar to having a glorified Decoy. They're only suitable as MVP's (which most balanced parties boil down to, 1-2 main damage dealers, 2-3 support) if you're incredibly twinked and have a Amp Max'd Necro in tow. This of course, only carries you to NM, as in Hell the Amplify Damage nerfs really shine.
You are now stuck dealing absolutely zero damage to every boss you encounter, unless by some odd alignment of the stars you're in a party that would benefit more from Amplify Damage than LR (quite rare now).
This is all assuming you lucked out and met up with a Necromancer who maxed Amplify Damage, which is now vital for a melee build to be the least bit viable.
But don't worry, melee is totally balanced and everyone who thinks different is just bad and should roll a poison char!

/end rant.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:38 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
But don't worry, melee is totally balanced and everyone who thinks different is just bad and should roll a poison char!

/end rant.


why poison if you can stack blaze to kill hell actbosses in 5 sec?


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:27 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Boss physical resists were not an issue with the original Amplify Damage. Boss physical resists were balanced around the fact CB still existed and Amplify Damage could pierce up to 90%.
So yes, nerfing amp and CB created issues with melee damage.

My point was reverting CB and Amp isn't the solution.

Quote:
Except casters hardly need defensive aspects covered as they can take out a boss a screen away. Also, this game was balanced around having maximum resists. Ordinarily an attack that will hit you for 33%-50% of your life will easily 1 shot you without maximum resists.

Not solo though.

Quote:
In this patch, having a melee in your party is similar to having a glorified Decoy. They're only suitable as MVP's (which most balanced parties boil down to, 1-2 main damage dealers, 2-3 support) if you're incredibly twinked and have a Amp Max'd Necro in tow. This of course, only carries you to NM, as in Hell the Amplify Damage nerfs really shine.
You are now stuck dealing absolutely zero damage to every boss you encounter, unless by some odd alignment of the stars you're in a party that would benefit more from Amplify Damage than LR (quite rare now).
This is all assuming you lucked out and met up with a Necromancer who maxed Amplify Damage, which is now vital for a melee build to be the least bit viable.
But don't worry, melee is totally balanced and everyone who thinks different is just bad and should roll a poison char!

/end rant.


Physical damage is completely FUBAR against some bosses.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:57 pm 

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Trafalgar wrote:
Beta testing for this patch was done. From what I've read on the forums the beta testing was openly conducted for community feedback, but not everyone participated. From my reading it was "more than could be expected" but it wasn't all that many participants. You can't expect the developers to test EVERYTHING. Beta testing also lasted for months...
No, there you are wrong. The skills changes were tested as far as functioning as intended, which most did. In fact about 1 week BEFORE the patch went live the amp issue showed up and got pushed aside as unimportant. Seems to me should have been a warning and dealt with more than it was. Could have prevented many of the flame-fests that have propagated here.

Trafalgar wrote:
You apparently are under the assumption every character should have every defensive aspect covered along with great offense. If choosing your gear is to hard you can always quit. :lol:
No quite actually the reverse of that. Some people last patch would actually tell others to use specific gear setups for each boss based on sorbs, res and dr. One example was 2x raven vs Amon, wisp& shock absorber vs DeSeis, Shaft& Skulled shield vs Moloch and 2x dwarfs or dwarf& wisp vs diablo. At least last patch if you didn't do this you could still stand in there somewhat cuz of relatively easy to get res. It would take a while and add to the challenge by not "optimizing" for each battle. Now battle specific gear is virtually mandatory.

Trafalgar wrote:
I bet all of this is forcing you to party. :roll: Funny how all those problems you listed actually make a challenging environment intended for parties.
No, actually it hasn't that much. Parties were nearly as important then as now. Only the make-up of the party has changed. More dependent on casters and less of phys dmg chars. I still run areas solo when mfing even as I did then. Biggest difference is now melee doesn't help nearly as much in boss fights other than to slap a boss to say "hit me". At least in the old patch they could hurt them.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:41 am 

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There is only 1 solution to the problem. REMOVE THE PHYSICAL RESIST. No other solution is welcome.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:39 pm 
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tase wrote:
There is only 1 solution to the problem. REMOVE THE PHYSICAL RESIST. No other solution is welcome.


Yes but when we ask this to be done we meet bureaucratic obstinacy, such as 'I'm not in charge' and 'Leave it for 6 months'.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
My point was reverting CB and Amp isn't the solution.

Then what is? The all but removal of CB has rendered non-CI melee (read: 90% of melee builds) useless against every boss with Moncurse.
Add in the fact that the Amplify Damage nerfs means I'm now dealing 10-20% of my actual damage to Hell Bosses... Well... The list goes on of how melee damage has been murdered in 3-4 different ways this patch.

Trafalgar wrote:
Not solo though.

Your point? Do you think melee don't need curses and life buffs?
And casters can solo bosses this patch. It happens a lot. The whole "soloing" issue is a silly thing to design around, as you won't be soloing jack shit in an untwinked playthrough with any build.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:58 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Your point? Do you think melee don't need curses and life buffs?
And casters can solo bosses this patch. It happens a lot. The whole "soloing" issue is a silly thing to design around, as you won't be soloing jack shit in an untwinked playthrough with any build.


The problem is that they are basing balanced off a fully twinked char with inventory full of charms and perfect crafted gear. The deeper you dig, the more retarded shit you find.

Anti-rush and new items are great and all but, that new zon bow is a pile of crap, and the lvl 95 claw makes the lvl 83 one look like a piece of shit.

What I fail to understand is why can't we just go and see what patch 1.21z had, and make SLIGHT and MODERATE changes. Then you don't have to spend 300 years balancing phys vs melee because it's 'TOO EASY' and 'HELL SHOULDN'T BE CANDYLAND' and start this whole fuckfest of shit because no one wants tedious boredom and useless chars stuck in a5 NM.

Oh look, we can reduce boss charm resist. Oh look bureaucracy, me and Steel and Trafalgar give valid values for testing and it won't get implemented anyway, because if melee can actually damage a boss they are afraid Hell will be 'candyland' and all the hours they put into making this elitist-ville will go to waste.

Even if we give the perfect values for setting monster resist charm at, nothing is going to happen anyway because the community is split between 'you must be hardcore and have xxx char and xxx skill maxed and this item for this or you will fail miserably' and 'I just want to play the game, gear my char etc'.

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:56 am 

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The community is split cause some of us have poisen chars or elemental chars and the other part physical chars. For the first part this patch is extremely easy, they have all the pierce of the resist they need, great items, great dmg.
We ask only for removing the physical resist of the mobs and bosses because is extremely hard to kill something in hell dificulty or imposible or add some god damn phisycal pierce to items, or give jewels this atribute.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:31 pm 

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is it possible to have -pierce physical resist jewels like all the others? Or even make blade of arreat give -% physical pierce while active, along with a boost to its duration perhaps. combine that with amp and you may have a chance to dmg hell bosses?


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:31 pm 

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The damage done to bosses of course is a big issue, but i was thinking of maybe something else;

Now i know I may get flamed for this, but whatever. Is it possible to enable life leach against bosses?.. Maybe cut it in 1/2 of regular amount or something? One problem i noticed not only with my self, but basically with every melee class I've seen in hell, is that not only do they do absolutely no damage, but they die (even the TOP end geared players) and literally seconds. I was thinking, melee characters take the most damage for the strict fact that they're melee.. its impossible to dodge boss attacks, and counters, seeing as how we're right in their face in the first place, and its really, really tedious that we have to stack up like 30+ rejuvs just for each boss fight (healing pots don't heal nearly fast enough).


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:21 am 

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drazaer if they remove the physical resist and if the life leech will be available, physical chars will still die alot of times, but at least they are playable. For the moment playing a barb in hell dificulty is like wishing to get mad. I dont have the best gear nor the lvls to wear it but i realize even with those items my barb will not get uber. The game dosent let me. It's a shame!


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:21 am 
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i dont see how a melee can spare his sockets for pierce. you want to weaken them more? take away their ability to socket for life/str/res?

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:46 pm 

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Physical characters(with the exception of ele druids) can't socket pierce in their weapon, but the other slots provide viable areas for which to put jewels into. It's pretty simple, you simply make physical pierce jewels with stats that cater to physical characters. Obviously ED isn't nearly as effective as % damage that elemental characters get, so why not throw strength, res, or even life on the jewels to make up the gems they'd otherwise have to cut to use the facets.

Not that I think pierce should be necessary to deal damage, but I feel as though it should significantly increase damage(like it is so with elemental characters). Also, something along the lines of Ber runes or uber amethysts could add a bit of pierce, since most players will undoubtedly socket their weapon for some sort of ED or ias, building a bit of pierce into those would be beneficial.

Obviously the numbers would have to be crunched so as to not break a delicate balance of being able to do decent damage and simply wrecking bosses in two seconds, but, it's better than every single melee character turning into a leecher come hell.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:12 am 

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I believe things aren't going to change. :) For some unknown reasons the mods thinks the patch is allright as it is and i'm tired of complaining all the time :P. So fck it!


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:42 am 
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:D

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:45 am 
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tase wrote:
For some unknown reasons the mods thinks the patch is allright as it is and i'm tired of complaining all the time :P. So fck it!

unknown?
didn't I spell out my thoughts clearly in the first page of this post?

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:07 am 

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Are u serious ? All u said is bullshit. Anyway a new ladder season started on bnet. Have fun!


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:28 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
tase wrote:
For some unknown reasons the mods thinks the patch is allright as it is and i'm tired of complaining all the time :P. So fck it!

unknown?
didn't I spell out my thoughts clearly in the first page of this post?


Yea, you pretty much said something like 'let's leave it because you can't underestimate the INGENUITY of the players to adapt'

Classic Blue. It takes a fucking genius to not make a barb doesn't it. Anyone who clicked barbarian must be just noobs who need to be banned from the community.

Figures, 2 months after this issue has been brought up and nothing has changed.

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Classic Rasta. It takes a fucking genius to not be a chode doesn't it. Anyone who cocked rasta must be hate boobs and need to be banned from life.

Figures, 2 months after this issue has been brought up and nothing has changed.

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:17 am 
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kramuti wrote:
Classic Rasta. It takes a fucking genius to not be a chode doesn't it. Anyone who cocked rasta must be hate boobs and need to be banned from life.

Figures, 2 months after this issue has been brought up and nothing has changed.


sometimes I just think people like to complain... maybe thats why they keep playing HU, because they know if they go back to b.net even less people will pay attention and care about what they have to say

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:53 am 
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more like if they complained in real life like they do here they would get bitch slapped all over the place so they vent here. Ignore function ftw!

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:55 am 

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you should just compare how much people complain now and how much they complained last patch, and see wich is worse and then decide how to balance next patch :D

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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:04 am 
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Verb wrote:
you should just compare how much people complain now and how much they complained last patch, and see wich is worse and then decide how to balance next patch :D


Them(hardcore elitist army of Blue) being right and me being wrong is more important. Solutions for balance are irrelevant, no one gives a fuck if I complain or don't complain, even if I am trying to address something that is clearly an issue, putting someone on the spot for it just gives the 'Rasta you a whiny slut' reaction because they don't want to see how bad this patch is.

Reason why Blue and everyone else that thinks this patch is perfect will never see another point of view= Ego too big.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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Hmmm.... Sometimes I believe your logic is on another fucked up plane of existence.


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 Post subject: Re: My personal recommendations for balance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Rasta wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R11fH1T-blA&feature=related

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