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 Post subject: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:03 am 

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I know by reading the topic you're assuming I'm going to change bash the Anti-Rush change implementation. Well your wrong, I'm only going to bash the implementation. I know this thread will probably get moved, deleted or whatever else and I'm sure I'm going to piss some people off. Oh well.. if this was Iraq I'd be throwing shoes.

I'm pissed off that the Anti-Rush change implemented did not occur for HC. I'd like to know the reasons behind this. I'm just astonished, the change that would most benefit the HC community goes to the SC community? If there was not a technical error in this process.. that will infuriate me even more so.

The SoftCore community is a heavily active and populated community. There are five to six times as many ACTIVE players compared to the HC community? How does the Anti-Rush change benefit them in any way? I don't understand the reasoning behind it. They will never have trouble getting out of Nightmare with a community THAT size. No man will ever be left behind. Hell you could two man Baal in SC without any problem and even with death you will prevail?

The HC community? The Anti-Rush change BENEFITS this community FAR FAR more than the SC community. We have a dying community currently.. and It's not hard to wonder why when changes like this are occurring? Our community is VERY sparsely populated currently.. as during the reset It was MUCH MUCH more active. The community consists of TWO teams and if you have no RELEVANT relationship with my team or the other team.. then you can expect to do nothing and wander your way through HardCore eventually dying or quitting from pure boredom. If it wasn't for the fact that I had a team I know I can play with then I would NOT play this game at all. I'd simply quit. That is because WE don't have a REAL community. There is NOTHING being done on these forums to help or support HC at all. The community that use to be ACTIVE and ALIVE is now INACTIVE and slowly DYING. The people who got left behind in A5 nightmare simply quit. They won't even log on, won't start a new char.. there is no desire to because they know they will end up STUCK again. I'd gladly help people with Nightmare Baal etc. but I CAN'T. And i'm sick of that "HC isn't endorsed by the mod creator" crap.

I don't want to hear the bullcrap about doing it yourself without higher level help. It's a video game, and for the most part if you are skilled enough to make it to A5 nightmare Baal without dying then what else are you trying to prove? Not everyone gets the luxury of a skilled team on HardCore that is able to always play together and do everything correctly.

Oh yeah there was another crappy argument about half of the players without a team could form one. WELL they don't, you just don't stumble upon random people you meet and say "hey man wanna f a me? I don't know you but I'd sure love to get to know you! Let's arrange a time to do baal together!" I mean what do you think this is? Maybe it should happen but it doesn't and It's irrelevant because it just doesn't happen. As I stated previously.. all of those players slowly are quitting the game and the only thing that will remain are the only two teams that are relevant now. Oh by the way.. the other team is hardly active anymore.

The HC community has been acknowledged and greatly respected for awhile now. We are apart of this community, we compromise the player base in it. We have some of the brightest D2 players who actively contribute feedback and help in balancing this mod to make the experience of everyone better, SoftCore and HC included. If you truly respect and care about the HC community the anti-rush change will be added to HardCore as well.


I don't know WHOS idea it was to not implement the change for HC. I'm not going to throw fire Duffs way because I know someone told him not to implement it for HardCore and I'm automatically assuming it was PureRage and If I'm wrong I apologize PureRage. I don't think you or anyone else who is against the change implementation for HC have any valid argument. Do something to help the dying community. You see a man dying, do you usually sit and watch him die or do you try to help as much as you can? I don't see anything positive being done here and maybe no one in the HC community has spoken up until now but well I have and I will continue to do so. Interested in hearing the replies and expecting responses from both sides, hopefully this doesn't get deleted, moved, or put into the argument forum because my points are very valid.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:28 am 
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I have the solution.
one ladder.
ill come back to read rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:49 am 

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I don't understand your solution? Was it a technical issue that prevented HC from being able to get the implement? If that's the case.. then I don't know, guess nothing can be done. If it wasn't an technical issue I don't understand your solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:59 pm 
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because there is nothing "hardcore" about following a high level through the game?

At least a death on hc means something now instead of a minor speed bump on the rush train.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Play sc instead hacker?

The anti-rush is the best thing that has happened to HU since it was created. There are actually games now instead of 7 dummies following a high level asshole.

And kudos to Duff for not implementing the change on HC. We love you for it!


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:54 pm 
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i meant eliminate hc and keep anti rush, in the first couple paragraphs you went on about the size of the community and my solution addresses that.
thats all.
[quote="Utter"]

The anti-rush is the best thing that has happened to HU since it was created. There are actually games now instead of 7 dummies following a high level asshole.
/quote]

i understand there is a superiority to playing hc ect ect. but there is nothing stopping ppl from deleting their char after they die, and now they could save their charms too. i have no issue with hc existing but when ppl complain about how the mod plays on hc,(delta) then i dont see why they dont just play sc. both realms would benefit from this.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:16 pm 
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or just eliminate sc so there is no comparison. Some people get more enjoyment out of playing Hc, it's hard to explain to someone but no risk = no fun for alot of us. There are still a few who play Hc simply for the "prestige" of having a high level char that has never died. This is often a hollow victory for them when they realise they have never been near 99% of the bosses unless they are 30 levels above what they should be.
They are the masters of norm and NM and still think that 1 shotting all mobs in act 5 norm at level 99 makes them an amazing player. They will start to do hell cow parts runs once they hit 100 (Not nihlathak because CE hurts, avoiding bodys is too hard and they have no way of clearing corpses). by this time they will have cleared to hell sammy 1000 times but not actually killed him. (This just makes him more awesome). They will then have to ask someone to open the cow portal for them because they "aren't ready" to kill hell baal. One of the facets they are using is 1% off perfect and they need the 5 stat points and 1 skill point from level 101 first.

Wow, turned into a bit of a rant but whatever

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:37 pm 
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As Kev is saying, without HC I for one would never play SC. Never have and never will.

No risk=no fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:42 pm 
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then make a rule that if your character dies you must punch your monitor as hard as you can. that way if you die you run the risk of having to get a new monitor.
but on a more serious note i'd say most ppl are of the mind that
nobody to play with = no fun
it really wouldnt matter if yours and pious' team or whoever else has made it to hell on hc were playing on sc cause you'd just run private or not pick up or play with too much of the community, but for all the other ppl that play hc outside of a team it would leave them with a higher quanity of ppl to play with albeit lower quality.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Son, it's time to take anti rushing into our own hands.

Smite them. If lvl 95's can join a nm game, so can we.

KILL THEM ALL

MAke a norm char made JUST for pking the lvl 60 partied with a bunch of lvl 30s.

Go in NM games with ur hell char and slay them.

Anti rushing is a good idea, but it needs to be enforced.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:52 pm 
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it was enforced.
ppl cried.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:32 pm 

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Rasta wrote:
Son, it's time to take anti rushing into our own hands.

Smite them. If lvl 95's can join a nm game, so can we.

KILL THEM ALL

MAke a norm char made JUST for pking the lvl 60 partied with a bunch of lvl 30s.

Go in NM games with ur hell char and slay them.

Anti rushing is a good idea, but it needs to be enforced.



lol did you just ask for pkers?

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:36 pm 
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I'm going to withhold my opinion about the anti-rush changes because I really don't feel like getting into the argument.

I will however say, HC is pretty lonely nowadays.
~25 alive characters are in Hell, with the majority of them being multiples characters from the same account. (EDIT: Did a quick count. Only about 10 accounts have a live character in Hell atm)

Not everyone has a solid, balanced team to progress through the game with. There are a lot of people hanging around with very little means to progress in the game as they just get left behind. I can't really blame them for quitting HC, I would too. For someone who doesn't have a solid team backing them, a death is pretty much it. Good luck climbing back up to hell if you don't have a solid set of homeboys to reroll with.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:12 pm 

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Ok first of all I will reply to PureRage and I'm not going to have a flame fest with you Utter. Are you even playing anymore? How's your druid btw?

A free ride is better than sitting and doing nothing. You have a weak argument, you know that? There is nothing HardCore about being rushed, what is hardcore about not having anyone to play with it? Take the community into consideration before you speak, it's currently dying at the moment and just because YOU have a team is a perfect example of why you don't understand.

Let's leave you without your team and let you sit in A5 and I am sure you'd be the first person bitching on here. I can't count the names of people who quit because they got left behind, teamless, etc. Your reasoning is beyond sad. Anti-rush should not be implemented on hc to please a few jerks?

You want "hardcore" in a community of 10 people? Then go play on a private realm. Wtf is the problem? Go host a tcp/ip game and play there. With your reasoning this community is going to end up to shit all because your crying about a free ride? Well understand this in life. Some people are born rich, some people have to work their ass off for it, who cares what anyone else does? Do whatever you want to do. If you don't want rushed don't be rushed but don't hate on other people because they chose to be rushed rather than sitting their asses in a5 for an eternity. If I sound offensive I apologize but it just saddens me to see where this community is going and the thinking of you guys.. not even selfish just senseless.

There is a difference also between "being" rushed and helping do baal. I don't a single character that can solo Baal, even if a high level helps you still have to do something, you just don't sit on your ass and get rushed. Every character plays their part. Someone thanked me today just for partying with them? How fucking sad is that?

And I like said.. It's easy to talk shit when your eating with a spoon ( have a party ) let's take away your spoon and then see how you feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:37 am 
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There is no spoon.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 am 
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the matrix

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:25 am 
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You want "hardcore" in a community of 10 people? Then go play on a private realm. Wtf is the problem? Go host a tcp/ip game and play there.


or you could go play SC whare the AR is weak, Hc isn't supposed to be easy.

when one of us gets left without a team we either solo it or roll a new char. Are you in some kind of hurry??? Once a team turns up at the same point as one of your chars, then play that char. I'll start playing my druid again once the rest of our team reach act 5 hell again, i'm in no hurry. same deal with my necro, once the group get to act 2 hell i'll likely pick him up again.

Just to point out, even if i don't include the main team i played with (me, relay and imperial) i've still played in tons and tons of groups, even playing when nobody else is on, i always end up finding at least 1 person to play with. a 2 man team is all you need to make progress fyi. (including the baal quest).

If it's too hard without the ability to rush, just say it instead of dancing around it.
You can run through normal in a single sitting, whats the problem here exactly?

@ rasta: we don't need to enforce it, people just need to man up and stop crying about it. There are 2 modes ech with a diff AR system, if you don't like the HC version, you can play SC, if you don't like the Sc version then come play Hc.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:59 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
You want "hardcore" in a community of 10 people? Then go play on a private realm. Wtf is the problem? Go host a tcp/ip game and play there.



@ rasta: we don't need to enforce it, people just need to man up and stop crying about it. There are 2 modes ech with a diff AR system, if you don't like the HC version, you can play SC, if you don't like the Sc version then come play Hc.


I was joking about that shit, all I'm trying to say that there needs to be more balance changes so we don't have so many useless melees running around.

I'm all for playing through the game and I think antirush is a great change, however, don't implement antirush at the same time as butchering an entire character class, melees that is. Casters are already good at cleaning trash, now they are needed for bosses... tank with summons and drop dem g's GGGGGGGGGGGGGG

For the record I do PK people. Frenzy barb with uber tankage and wisp projector is quite deadly, my AR is kind of low though.

A Zealot atm is garbage. To play zealot you will have to stick 40 pnts into prayer/holy bolt so you can put on healer gear and do shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Rasta wrote:

A Zealot atm is garbage. To play zealot you will have to stick 40 pnts into prayer/holy bolt so you can put on healer gear and do shit.

i lol'd
im not entirely disagreeing but i duo'd baal with a zealot. it was normal tho so it doesnt say much. most of the fight was me running around usin pots and blades/spears till i was dead.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:13 am 
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Zikur wrote:
Rasta wrote:

A Zealot atm is garbage. To play zealot you will have to stick 40 pnts into prayer/holy bolt so you can put on healer gear and do shit.

i lol'd
im not entirely disagreeing but i duo'd baal with a zealot. it was normal tho so it doesnt say much. most of the fight was me running around usin pots and blades/spears till i was dead.


yea normal isn't bad though, we dont have act bosses with unbreakable physical immune

You can make any char and be strong in normal and nm too

Although i felt pretty useless when my barb did norm baal, but not as useless as I feel now tryin to do hell bosses

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:15 am 
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oh im sure we would have killed faster if he did indeed have those 20 pts in prayer/hb cause i wouldnt have had to run around so much

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:18 am 
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Zikur wrote:
oh im sure we would have killed faster if he did indeed have those 20 pts in prayer/hb cause i wouldnt have had to run around so much


yea in normal you can melee bosses, but its normal

have u tried to melee a hell act boss yet?

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This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:20 am 
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im saying we would have killed faster if he just healed me >.>

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:03 pm 
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this "unbreakable phys immune" is complete crap, the bosses has this charm last patch and with a 70% amp crushing blow was working to full effect. I don't see how with 15% less pierce you are struggling. Its more a case of the necro you are playing with it an ass and left amp as a 1 pointer. gg.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:46 pm 
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I don't see how with 15% less pierce you are struggling. Its more a case of the necro you are playing with it an ass and left amp as a 1 pointer. gg.
So finally you agreed that no nec = no melee dmg. 15% less pierce on what? last ladder amp on atma was like 40% barely helping outside NM with dmg. Now CB is removed and amp destroyed because you said so.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:28 pm 
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So finally you agreed that no nec = no melee dmg. 15% less pierce on what? last ladder amp on atma was like 40% barely helping outside NM with dmg. Now CB is removed and amp destroyed because you said so.


Because I said so? you obviously didn't bother reading the first set of proposals. I implemented skills suggestions. I didn't make them all myself. get your facts straight next time please.

Funny you say that the 40 amp was useless. I distinctly remember soloing most hell bosses on my pally with the amp from a brand jav on switch. I also remember another "pure damage" smiter killing hell bosses with the same brand rw amp and no crushing blow.

You want melees to be able to kill bosses at the same speed as the OP builds though yeh? at the min it looks like melees need a party. That is good, now its just a case of making the op chars require a tank more then they currently do. Instead of buffing the chars that require a team, nerf the op builds through passive pierce reductions, low cooldowns on summons and op summons like decoy need looked at.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Quote:
Funny you say that the 40 amp was useless.
GRRR, Next time I'll be more precise. I didn't say 40%amp was useless, I said atma barely helped outside nm - 6% ctc 3lvl amp outside nm isn't great, bosses block, you need to use bash with less ar you usually do, bosses lose curses a lot faster. Now brand which is ber rw should be better but hell, it's the same in effect as lawbringer which is only KO rw.
Quote:
You want melees to be able to kill bosses at the same speed as the OP builds though yeh? at the min it looks like melees need a party.
Yes, party with ppl that know how strong you actually are and you need amp most of the time. Well I can't find guys that would like to play with me :(.
Quote:
Instead of buffing the chars that require a team, nerf the op builds through passive pierce reductions, low cooldowns on summons and op summons like decoy need looked at.
0 buffs to melee, just let hell bosses ain't be phys immune. Either better amp outside necro to help or uniq item on bosses(which I bet is actually being looked).


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:19 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
this "unbreakable phys immune" is complete crap, the bosses has this charm last patch and with a 70% amp crushing blow was working to full effect. I don't see how with 15% less pierce you are struggling. Its more a case of the necro you are playing with it an ass and left amp as a 1 pointer. gg.


To be an asshole, if a boss has 140%, and a level 20 Amplify Damage Curse now reduces their physical resistance to 90%, you're doing 10% damage.

Back when Amplify Damage would be an easy 75%, you'd be reducing it to 65%. You're now doing 35% of you're actual physical damage.

That's a 250% damage increase, and I think we can both agree that's very significant.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Back when Amplify Damage would be an easy 75%, you'd be reducing it to 65%. You're now doing 35% of you're actual physical damage.

That's a 250% damage increase, and I think we can both agree that's very significant.

How common was that 75% amp though?
Seems like melee character with atma's last season was doing ok. Wasn't that only 40ish?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:29 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
How common was that 75% amp though?
Seems like melee character with atma's last season was doing ok. Wasn't that only 40ish?


How common is a 50% Amplify Damage now?
And how much do ctc items give in physical pierce now compared to last patch?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:33 pm 
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You can't answer a question with a question if you hope to be serious.
Stop dodging. I am asking honest questions as you seem to have a clear opinion on this that you feel is well supported by logic.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Brand was around 60% - 5lvl amp but progress was like 7% per point.
75% every nec with 1 point into it, I had mine with curse gcs to 83% (1hard into amp)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
this "unbreakable phys immune" is complete crap, the bosses has this charm last patch and with a 70% amp crushing blow was working to full effect. I don't see how with 15% less pierce you are struggling. Its more a case of the necro you are playing with it an ass and left amp as a 1 pointer. gg.


To be an asshole, if a boss has 140%, and a level 20 Amplify Damage Curse now reduces their physical resistance to 90%, you're doing 10% damage.

Back when Amplify Damage would be an easy 75%, you'd be reducing it to 65%. You're now doing 35% of you're actual physical damage.

That's a 250% damage increase, and I think we can both agree that's very significant.


the dr% on the boss charm is being applied another way, it has to be. with the 1/5 penalty vs immunes you would need 101% amp to break 120% phys res in the past. The 50% is somehow being applied like an absorb% with this charm. ie. if an enemy has 70% phys res in monstats a 70% amp is reducing that to 0 but the dr% on this charm is still giving 50% resistance.

If an enemy had -100 phys res but was using this charm, it would be 50% resistance after the actual resistance (so in effect, 0 res). I'm trying to find out exactly how it's being applied but this seems to be how it is working from testing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:48 pm 
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ok, so with this patch we have seen a drop from around 60% from lvl5 amp, down to about 25-30%. I am skeptical that a 30% drop is causing the end of the world, but I will keep that in mind.

My guess though is that what is really making such an impact is the 60% drop from Amp being on all the time to it never being used. That is turning the tables and putting casters (who are getting LR cast) on a stronger footing.

Personally, this is reminding me of a suggestion I had quite a while ago where Amplify Damage did both Physical and Elemental pierce. I honestly don't see a situation that will be win/win without it literally being a win/win. Buff Amp back, and casters suffer. Leave Amp where it is and melee suffer.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:51 pm 
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I always thought lr should be split into fire/cold/light/pois instead of rolled into one

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:54 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I always thought lr should be split into fire/cold/light/pois instead of rolled into one

Interesting - but not very party friendly. Would there be many necros putting points in to something that benefited people other than themselves?

I am talking about the general community, that perspective always needs to be paramount in balance discussions. The reality that the general player plays for himself and not for the benefit of the party is something that needs to be clearly kept in the forefront of balance discussions.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:55 pm 
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not with the current progression, i mean with a more steady progression so less points are required but you select what elemental pierce is best suited for any given situation instead of all elemental or physical.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:59 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
I always thought lr should be split into fire/cold/light/pois instead of rolled into one

Interesting - but not very party friendly. Would there be many necros putting points in to something that benefited people other than themselves?

I am talking about the general community, that perspective always needs to be paramount in balance discussions. The reality that the general player plays for himself and not for the benefit of the party is something that needs to be clearly kept in the forefront of balance discussions.


This is hugely important I think. Instead of trying to force people to put points into amp to help out others, make it worth their while. Maybe make it a synergy (or include an added self-buff for points spent) along with some other skills like inner sight. I think even putting a single point into a skill not needed for soloing or a specific group people run with is something offputting for min/maxers or even new players that find the mod difficult and need every point they can get.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:09 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
You can't answer a question with a question if you hope to be serious.
Stop dodging. I am asking honest questions as you seem to have a clear opinion on this that you feel is well supported by logic.


I honestly wasn't aware it was a serious question. Every Necromancer had ~70 Amplify Damage with 1 hard point.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
the dr% on the boss charm is being applied another way, it has to be.


I agree with this, it most likely is. But even if a boss has 90% physical resistance and a 50% DR charm, it's still 140% physical DR. If Amplify Damage only effects base physical resists, a 50% Amplify Damage would reduce the base physical resistance to 40%.
Add in the charm, they still have 90% Physical Resistance.



Also, something to note, comparing Lower Resists and Amplify Damage isn't a solid comparison. There is no such thing as passive Physical Pierce. Casters don't absolutely need Lower Resists like melee do Amplify Damage.
At the moment, ~55-57 is the best Amplify Damage you can obtain, and that's high balling it. An elemental character can easily reach -100 passive pierce, much more if you're talking perfect facets and such.
Add in LR & Conviction, you have an additional 100-110 pierce available to an elemental character. Obviously boss absorbs come into account, but it's also fun to note Poison isn't effected by boss absorbs.


EDIT: I also thought this should be noted:
blue_myriddn wrote:
ok, so with this patch we have seen a drop from around 60% from lvl5 amp, down to about 25-30%. I am skeptical that a 30% drop is causing the end of the world, but I will keep that in mind.


You're not talking about a flat 25-30% damage increase or decrease when talking about physical pierce. As I've already stated, something like 25% pierce can double or triple your damage. Obviously numbers like that are significant.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Rush change implemented? A joke?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
I honestly wasn't aware it was a serious question. Every Necromancer had ~70 Amplify Damage with 1 hard point.

I only ask serious questions. I don't bother with nonsense questions that waste time or are designed to create arguments. I deal with things straight forward and to the point. Any other form of communication fails on the internet where nuances are impossible.

Abominae wrote:
Casters don't absolutely need Lower Resists like melee do Amplify Damage.

Any time the word "need" comes up, it means the game is unbalanced and should be corrected rather than placated to.

Abominae wrote:
An elemental character can easily reach -100 passive pierce, much more if you're talking perfect facets and such.

This is offset by the larger amount of elemental resists in the game.

Consider Hell Andariel - a character that people claim is not able to be damage by physical damage. Here resists are:

Physical 66
Magic 50
Fire/Cold/Light 90 90 90
Poison 125

This is similar with many other bosses too, even the minor quest bosses and is the reason why there is no Physical pierce. Adding physical pierce to the game is a bad idea as it would just require redoing the balance tables.

Further more there is no %aborb with physical damage like there is with elemental damage (unless there is something weird with those uber charms that Soulmancer implemented because I really don't understand how they work). %absorb on top of high elemental resist is deadly and is why elemental characters require such high pierce values.

Am I opposed to reducing the values on those boss charms and reducing the amount of passive pierce? Yes - I think it is a foolish concept to have both. It is like giving everyone a 20% discount in your store and then raising your prices by 20% - seems stupid and just makes players dependent on specific gear.

Abominae wrote:
EDIT: I also thought this should be noted:
blue_myriddn wrote:
ok, so with this patch we have seen a drop from around 60% from lvl5 amp, down to about 25-30%. I am skeptical that a 30% drop is causing the end of the world, but I will keep that in mind.


You're not talking about a flat 25-30% damage increase or decrease when talking about physical pierce. As I've already stated, something like 25% pierce can double or triple your damage. Obviously numbers like that are significant.

This is known. I remain skeptical, but I do understand it is a significant change, unlike the Deadly strike change which is not significant.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:40 pm 
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sounds like the issue is the masses of elemental pierce vs no form of passive phys pierce. elemental pierce is worryingly high, we just done nm diablo tonight and hydras were a major source of damage vs him simply because its easy to get high pierce values.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Quote:
Consider Hell Andariel - a character that people claim is not able to be damage by physical damage. Here resists are:

Physical 66
Magic 50
Actually it's 75phys, 66 magic, rest is ok.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
Consider Hell Andariel - a character that people claim is not able to be damage by physical damage. Here resists are:

Physical 66
Magic 50
Actually it's 75phys, 66 magic, rest is ok.


75+45.

She has the special item and it stacks with physical resist, making her immune and unbreakable unless you have a necro who maxed amp.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:49 pm 
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it don't STACK with phys res i already explained this. 75% + 50% of the remaining 25% so 87.5%.

It is resisting the damage done AFTER resistance, test in in sp.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
it don't STACK with phys res i already explained this. 75% + 50% of the remaining 25% so 87.5%.

It is resisting the damage done AFTER resistance, test in in sp.
if she had 12%phys res then I'd be noticable, I tested it with pure phys and she was immune to every blow, once I amped her bar was starting to move. You can easily say if boss is taking dmg, even if you hit her with 1cold dmg her hp bar will be less than full.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:08 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
sounds like the issue is the masses of elemental pierce vs no form of passive phys pierce. elemental pierce is worryingly high, we just done nm diablo tonight and hydras were a major source of damage vs him simply because its easy to get high pierce values.

no. phys pierce is a horrible idea.
sounds like the issue is too high of a value on that charm.

Need more information to really verify though.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:11 pm 
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oh, i don't think phys pierce should be added at all, its just the difference between the 2 is huge so less of one instead of more of the other would be better

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Actually it's 75phys, 66 magic, rest is ok.

Soulmancer buffed her phys resists again? Bah - he was too happy with the buff stick and not enough with the player nerf stick!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:59 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
it don't STACK with phys res i already explained this. 75% + 50% of the remaining 25% so 87.5%.

It is resisting the damage done AFTER resistance, test in in sp.


I'm confused about the math that's going on here. Are you saying something to the effect of:

A boss has 50% physical resistance. I'm doing 100 damage, so my damage is now 50. A boss also has a charm that reduces physical damage by 50%. Instead of having the two stack and reducing my damage by 100%, it is being cut twice? (100 / 2, and then 50 /2?) If that's the case I am now doing 25 damage.

Trying to understand the order of operations happening with base physical resistance on a boss and the physical resistance charm in place.


But on the topic of Amplify Damage, what I'm saying in a nutshell is it's a bitch to balance. Changing the ONLY source of physical pierce in the game is obviously going to have huge outcomes in comparison to changing elemental pierce, which can come from multiple sources.

I don't believe melee were put in such a sorry state purely because of the Amplify Damage nerf, but because they were shot from every angle with collective nerfs.
I will agree with Blue though, I believe the physical pierce nerf was much more significant nerf than something like Deadly Strike. The shift in damage is much more significant with the physical pierce nerf.
Not to say I agree with the collective nerfs to melee, in fact I believe they're extremely unbalanced at the moment. But physical pierce and physical resistance should be a higher priority for balance than something less game changing like Deadly Strike.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Quote:

PureRage-DoD wrote:
it don't STACK with phys res i already explained this. 75% + 50% of the remaining 25% so 87.5%.

It is resisting the damage done AFTER resistance, test in in sp.


I'm confused about the math that's going on here. Are you saying something to the effect of:

A boss has 50% physical resistance. I'm doing 100 damage, so my damage is now 50. A boss also has a charm that reduces physical damage by 50%. Instead of having the two stack and reducing my damage by 100%, it is being cut twice? (100 / 2, and then 50 /2?) If that's the case I am now doing 25 damage.

Trying to understand the order of operations happening with base physical resistance on a boss and the physical resistance charm in place.

im still looking into it, i've never come accross it before. The way it is being added isn't a straight boost to physical resistance though. It's being added at another stage of the damage reduction order. Be it before or after resistance.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:46 pm 

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this maybe a stupid solution... but with CB being gone... whats so wrong with just putting amp back to what it was??? that would allow for a melee/summon necro team to be feesable act boss duo? or a melee to be more then just a sit and sorb tank? i dunno just a simple idea from a simple mind ;). if im not mistaken by what all i have read, CB is what raped the bosses on a melee last season? well more so then just 70% amp?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:10 am 
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Another thing people aren't mentioning for barbs is the other nerf that effects barbs especially conc barbs more than anything is the removal of a1 phys mercs. Not only is there a major nerf on barbs and bosses there's a major nerf on barbs and there trash clearing abilities.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:31 am 

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stars wrote:
Another thing people aren't mentioning for barbs is the other nerf that effects barbs especially conc barbs more than anything is the removal of a1 phys mercs. Not only is there a major nerf on barbs and bosses there's a major nerf on barbs and there trash clearing abilities.



a3 merc clears just as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:59 am 
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Imperial wrote:
this maybe a stupid solution... but with CB being gone... whats so wrong with just putting amp back to what it was??? that would allow for a melee/summon necro team to be feesable act boss duo? or a melee to be more then just a sit and sorb tank? i dunno just a simple idea from a simple mind ;). if im not mistaken by what all i have read, CB is what raped the bosses on a melee last season? well more so then just 70% amp?


If you want to do a boss you can just have necro + meteor sorc.

Necro cast LR and spam summons, sorc spam meteor/blaze/hydra. GG dead boss with half the effort.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:47 am 

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its true, i do it all the time ^^


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:51 am 
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Quote:
im still looking into it, i've never come accross it before. The way it is being added isn't a straight boost to physical resistance though. It's being added at another stage of the damage reduction order. Be it before or after resistance.
No, it stacks, just not like if you were to add it directly on monsters, IE it won't show phys immune so it's easier to break. I changed Andy phys res to 82%, Andycap as it is 45% (127% total), her hp to 1(yes) with 27% amp no dmg at all, with 28% amp(15lvl lol) 1 shoted. I can run another test if you want.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 am 
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interesting, so the 1/5 penalty is not being applied at all. did you try using elemental resist to see if the immunity shows up?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:06 am 
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I switched lightning absorb to all-res +40(130%res total) on andyboss and:
-Immunity on screen was only poison
-She was immune to everything
-50 pierce and 100 pierce couldn't lower her to amount I could do any damage
-101lvl LR -50%all lowered her to amount I could do damage without passive pierce.
So I guess:
-if boss gets +res on his/her uniq item only curse can break and it works full power, not 1/5 like on "regular" immuns.
-passive pierce doesn't work w/o curse.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:11 am 
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so passive pierce isn't working until the hidden immunity is broken but skill pierce is working at full strength? thats pretty nifty. Have you come across this before?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:18 am 
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No, and I guess it works like 2 layers of res stacking with each other in different way. Lower res and such are hardcoded to work 1/5 if res >= 100, so for game itself it's still below 100%.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:24 am 
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the code must be looking only at monstats.txt etc. I would have thought they would read monequip.txt though.

Do you have the code for that routine?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:27 am 
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http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... uip+immune
Quote:
Do you have the code for that routine?
What?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:42 am 
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the code for the immunity display, can you find it?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:04 am 
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Oh, read topic I linked above or http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... =4&t=22346 (there is a plugin to add random immunes to monster and display them under hp bar). I don't know if values for display immunes outside monstats(or w/o plugin) are posted tho but I can ask on irc :P.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:11 am 
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I was after the offsets for that part of the display code just out of interest.

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