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Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
Return to skill synergies 64%  64%  [ 18 ]
Stay with no skill synergies 21%  21%  [ 6 ]
Other (please explain) 14%  14%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 28
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 Post subject: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:58 pm 
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There are pros and cons for each way. I could go either way, but I won't change it back unless there's a big demand for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:11 am 

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they should be returned. the lack of syns gives far too much power to builds that already have a lot of power and makes it almost impossible to balance builds that can double/tripple/quadrupple up damage skills. this is why we have sweb+wake of inferno stack, and stuff like hurricane/armaggedon/fstorm/volcano stack. you can't balance damage properly when some builds can run 4 main skills at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:17 am 

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In a perfect world, synergies are better, but 60-80 point builds make it rough for immunities if you aren't running with a tryhard team and high population. I would suggest attempting synergies while also adding more ways for players to access Conv/LR/something new that breaks immunities. This new feature can be something that doesn't stack with Conv/LR to avoid mega debuff cheese. Also capping the max resist that any monster can obtain, so things like magic resistant + lightning enchanted don't create a monster with 200% unbreakable lightning resist. High level 55+ specced Conv or LR should be able to break all immunities, and charges/procs/etc should be able to at least break all trash immunities. So I voted "other".


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:28 am 

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4. main skills at same time is rather unrealistic becuase every char need to go a little bit on the defensive route too. Also you need to gear properly so if u go 4. different dmg skills you will have to switch gear alot wich is bad and sucks.

2. is the way to go even 1. too and then u are able to be more tanky and mroe stable. Its not all about damage.

Imo i like the no synergies route more.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:39 am 

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Bring back synergies. Either that or fix the skill stacking cheese happening with being able to stack damage skills. I've noticed some classes are completely unaffected by lack of synergies and build the same way and others are able to stack damage with no consequence. That's why we have so many sins and druids.

Gearing for something like shockweb is irrelevant. Even if it's half the damage it could be if you geared for it you're still doing absurd fire trap damage with the added benefit of having a fully "synergized" shock web to spam. I think that's the point some people are missing, being too flexible on a certain few builds is making everything less fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:49 am 
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Yeah I think it's best for them to come back.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:50 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:31 pm
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I am more of a casual player and I've had the most fun with no synergies and when there was no immunities. I like the idea of being able to break immunities easier though.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:48 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:18 pm
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Ensley03 wrote:
In a perfect world, synergies are better, but 60-80 point builds make it rough for immunities if you aren't running with a tryhard team and high population. I would suggest attempting synergies while also adding more ways for players to access Conv/LR/something new that breaks immunities. This new feature can be something that doesn't stack with Conv/LR to avoid mega debuff cheese. Also capping the max resist that any monster can obtain, so things like magic resistant + lightning enchanted don't create a monster with 200% unbreakable lightning resist. High level 55+ specced Conv or LR should be able to break all immunities, and charges/procs/etc should be able to at least break all trash immunities. So I voted "other".


I vote +1 on what Ensley wrote. This would be the ideal word. So I also vote other.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:10 am 

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If there wasnt the third option, i would choose No syngeries, so im glad there is :)
-
Syngeries in a way looked like forced builds to me. So i have this suggestion.
Gather all skills in 2 pages and use the 3rd page to add passives. The kind of passives u would add to skills to make syngeries.
So basically, more passives.

What u think?


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:26 am 
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^ that would be a lot of extra work and It could end up being a flop. Let's just stick to what we know works. I'll go back to synergies with trash immunities able to be broken easily. I'll keep bosses from spawning immune too often too.

I've got some time off work coming up so I'll be able to finish all these changes soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:46 am 

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Yeah that sounds like way too much work Doubtful. Also you'd be completely revamping classes like how could a Sorc have fire cold and lightning skills in 2 trees? I guess it could be done but I don't believe we need to reinvent the wheel here.

That sounds good Mraw. It also should apply to phys (how extra strong + stone skin gives 1 million phys res.) Do you plan to just put a cap on monster resists of like 135% or something? Similar to the string used in 1.6 that prevented immunities.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:20 am 

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The flexibility without synergies really favors some classes and skills. Balancing this would be too difficult, so I vote no synergies.
Witht synergies immunities become a topic again. If a monster gets magic resistant + lightning enchanted and overstacks to 200% lightning resist, cap it at 95%res. It will take a while but you can kill it if you want to. That way Having two damage types is still important but not essential. Even 97% or 98% would be much better than immune monsters.
One thing that is annoying in 2.0 are the chargers that keep switching immunities and can be immune to up to 5-6 damage types for a few seconds.
I have seen this a few times where three players and their mercenaries fight one remaining white charger for 15 seconds. It feels bad man.
In bossfights the switching aura isn't a great mechanic either but since it is only Baal I won't complain.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:29 am 
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fire/cold/lit/pois enchanted: 33% -> 10% res

spectral hit: 20% -> 5% fire/cold/lit res

magic resistant: 40% -> 10% fire/cold/lit res (skips if monster is already immune)

manaburn: 20% -> 10% magic res

stoneskin: 33% -> 15% phys res

with these changes then bosses would be breakable pretty easily (I will be buffing LR/Convic values some as well)

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:12 am 
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I feel that they should be returned. It makes more meaningful choices of builds...yes you actually have to choose a path. I understand the argument for diversity, or simply a skill wall, but the first is kind of a myth, and the latter is probably for the best.

I think the original intent was to bring more capability to hybrids, but not to make the best way to just get the best of those skills and ignore virtually every other skill in the tree.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Could always go for a mix of 1 and 2. (Didn't vote, I don't play)
Switch the offending skills to a 1 way 40-60 point skill synergy. Skills you want to keep as stand alone can still be used as a synergy.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:20 pm 

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Minu566 wrote:
If a monster gets magic resistant + lightning enchanted and overstacks to 200% lightning resist, cap it at 95%res. It will take a while but you can kill it if you want to. That way Having two damage types is still important but not essential. Even 97% or 98% would be much better than immune monsters.


Not sure if you are forgetting or just don't understand, but as soon as a monster is at 99% resist or less, you can use pierce, along with LR/Conv to debuff them all the way to -100%. The issue we talked about was being able to reduce a monsters' resist to at least 99% through Conv/LR so your pierce can kick in. Pierce does nothing if the guy is immune, but once the immunity is broken, even to 99%, you can kill them quickly if your piece is high enough, as 100 pierce makes a 99% resistant monster become a 0% resistant monster. I hope this clears stuff up for you and maybe others.

This is part of what makes caster damage hard to balance and I believe was a positive from 1.6 having no immunities. 1.6 had some bad problems but monster balance was not one of them. Since monsters had no immunities, gear came with very little pierce, facets were nerfed, LR/Conv were nerfed, Sorc mastery gave flat dmg%, not pierce. This made end-game spell damage more predictable and progression more linear since you never had the level 95+ spike of ridiculous pierce that we see today. I don't know why the community prefers the curve of casters being shit until 95 and then pierce jacking to where bosses get dumpstered in under a minute.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:35 pm 
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maybe the 40pt builds is a better option.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:33 pm 

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Ensley03 wrote:
Minu566 wrote:
If a monster gets magic resistant + lightning enchanted and overstacks to 200% lightning resist, cap it at 95%res. It will take a while but you can kill it if you want to. That way Having two damage types is still important but not essential. Even 97% or 98% would be much better than immune monsters.


Not sure if you are forgetting or just don't understand, but as soon as a monster is at 99% resist or less, you can use pierce, along with LR/Conv to debuff them all the way to -100%. The issue we talked about was being able to reduce a monsters' resist to at least 99% through Conv/LR so your pierce can kick in. Pierce does nothing if the guy is immune, but once the immunity is broken, even to 99%, you can kill them quickly if your piece is high enough, as 100 pierce makes a 99% resistant monster become a 0% resistant monster. I hope this clears stuff up for you and maybe others.

This is part of what makes caster damage hard to balance and I believe was a positive from 1.6 having no immunities. 1.6 had some bad problems but monster balance was not one of them. Since monsters had no immunities, gear came with very little pierce, facets were nerfed, LR/Conv were nerfed, Sorc mastery gave flat dmg%, not pierce. This made end-game spell damage more predictable and progression more linear since you never had the level 95+ spike of ridiculous pierce that we see today. I don't know why the community prefers the curve of casters being shit until 95 and then pierce jacking to where bosses get dumpstered in under a minute.


Monsters can overstack resistances just like players, mercs or pets.
If the monster has 200 light resist increasing your damage will still take -102 light pierce to get it from 99%res to 98%.
Lower res/conviction only has 1/5th of it's normal effect on immune monsters, so if there are no immunes and LR/C always get it's full effect they should be nerfed.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:58 pm 

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That's precisely why I'm not fan of stacked immunities and stacked pierce. Taking a monster from 99% to 98%, or 95% to 90% resist literally doubles your damage, but if every boss has 75% resist and every player has ~15-25% pierce max, it's much easier to predict player damage and therefore predict game balance.

Currently it's always a series of questions like:
-How jacked can resist mods stack on bosses?
-How much LR/Conv do you need to break the immunities?
-How broken will player damage be once they have dual armageddons and reach 100+ pierce?
-How bad will player damage be until they can actually reach peak pierce cheese?
-How much pierce are we factoring in for balancing boss HP/res/abs?
-How penalized should players be for not having Zod RWs vs how overpowered players are with them? This often doubles or more the amount of pierce a player has.

IMO all of this could be avoided by just giving all bosses 75% resists and nerfing pierce+debuffs into the ground and nobody has ever posted a counterargument for it besides "immunities are what HU/D2 is supposed to be"...


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:38 pm 
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In your suggestion, since the difference between no pierce and max pierce isn't as big as before, it wouldnt be a necessity to deal adequate damage. So then casters could just use defensive gear/sockets and tank everything with superior aoe and range to melee.

What's the difference between boss res scaling up along with player pierce as the game progresses and having a flat value the entire game?

With the code edits I did then any immune bosses will be easily breakable. So that isn't an issue anymore.

If Armageddon/similar rws are too powerful then they can be nerfed, instead of completely changing the way pierce has been since the dawn of HU time.

The only real issue with boss res is that they could get unbreakable immunities, which won't happen anymore. And honestly it isnt that hard to deal with since only sub bosses can get these and 2 players with mercs could easily handle a boss like that. Unless you are both playing fire chars with 2 fire mercs and in that scenario its a huge case of l2p.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:00 pm 

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Well the difference is you increase the values of mastery% from items. If facets are say, +7% dmg with 0% pierce, stacking facets will make a really big difference, especially if you have no way to realistically pierce bosses below ~50%ish resists, so yeah you can build defensive, but your damage will be less than half.

Just look at the hypothetical numbers:
-Lvl 50 WoI in 2.0 does 2k dmg. dual armageddons and 100+ pierce, boss takes even more than listed damage, dumpstered in 10 seconds.
-Lvl 50 WoI in my scenario does 2k damage (~100% mastery from facets and more offensive gear), but boss has ~50% resists and doesn't instantly die.
-Lvl 50 WoI in my scenario with a defensive build does 1k damage (no facets, more tanky gear); you might live a long time but will take forever to kill the boss.

I do believe that there shouldn't be any runewords or uber uniques that give 40% pierce, because it makes the game ez once you get them but just makes it annoyingly extra difficult before you have them. Zod RWs and Uber uniques like Armageddon could simply have mods like 25% fire damage and 3% fire pierce. This would still make it a super strong item and best in slot for any Fire Sin. It doesn't diminish the value of end-game gear. It also assures you that nobody is going to debuff bosses to negative resists and murder them in seconds. You were on the right track when you limited pierce on all non-weapon/armor items to 3%, now follow that through with weapons/armor/gems/runes/facets/LR/Conv and adjust the bosses accordingly. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:11 pm 
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So remove -res and add +% dmg to everything. It's the same thing.

Your problem is that casters are weak until they get big pierce items. Reducing boss res early game and scaling it up slowly as the game progresses achieves the same goal. Without re-balancing all items and skill damage.

The real issue you have seem have is with pierce on weapons being too strong and the fact that assassins can dual wield them. I could fix that.

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Last edited by Mrawskrad on Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:12 pm 

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Yeah that pretty much sums it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:13 pm 
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I love nerfing sins. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:24 am 

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Are you going to push for a reset or is this the patch for the next year?


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:35 am 
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Reset. I've never been a fan of long ladders.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:56 am 

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Ensley03 wrote:
Minu566 wrote:
If a monster gets magic resistant + lightning enchanted and overstacks to 200% lightning resist, cap it at 95%res. It will take a while but you can kill it if you want to. That way Having two damage types is still important but not essential. Even 97% or 98% would be much better than immune monsters.


Not sure if you are forgetting or just don't understand, but as soon as a monster is at 99% resist or less, you can use pierce, along with LR/Conv to debuff them all the way to -100%. The issue we talked about was being able to reduce a monsters' resist to at least 99% through Conv/LR so your pierce can kick in. Pierce does nothing if the guy is immune, but once the immunity is broken, even to 99%, you can kill them quickly if your piece is high enough, as 100 pierce makes a 99% resistant monster become a 0% resistant monster. I hope this clears stuff up for you and maybe others.

This is part of what makes caster damage hard to balance and I believe was a positive from 1.6 having no immunities. 1.6 had some bad problems but monster balance was not one of them. Since monsters had no immunities, gear came with very little pierce, facets were nerfed, LR/Conv were nerfed, Sorc mastery gave flat dmg%, not pierce. This made end-game spell damage more predictable and progression more linear since you never had the level 95+ spike of ridiculous pierce that we see today. I don't know why the community prefers the curve of casters being shit until 95 and then pierce jacking to where bosses get dumpstered in under a minute.


What if you reduce the values of pierces on items?


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:20 am 
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I have always liked that there are some rares that cannot have their resistances completely broken by one element. Not a lot, but now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:24 am 
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Yeah I like immunities too without them the game is really faceroll for casters. I remember, maybe it was 1.5 that I removed all immune mobs because of this same kind of QQ we see now and almost everyone complained that it was boring.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:50 am 

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I dont get it why u dont simply do the following:

1)Remove all immunities.
2)Highly increases resistances if needed (even to 99%).
3)Reduce the piercing values from items, and from some skills if needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:05 am 
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increasing res and reducing pierce would kill casters

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:49 am 

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i dont understand how that can happen and i honestly dont think balance is such issue as ppl make it to be. i think there are many ways to balance things.

1) logically a caster, like sorcerer/druid etc will always deal more elemental dmg compare to assassin, barb etc.
Considering the above is a general balance rule.

2)If im not wrong now Bosses die too fast because no immunities and mostly because of pierce being too high.
So if Diablo has say 50% cold resist in normal and sorc does 1000 dmg per snowball or whatever (numbers are pure examples). Diablo still gets 500 dmg per skill.
On Hell difficulty diablo may have 90% resist to Cold and if Sorc at this point does 5k dmg per snowball, thats equal to 500 dmg per snowball (once again).
And considering you have reduced the pierce values. So in Hell a Sorc that stacks pierce can reach -30% cold pierce (again these numbers are mere examples). That means that now Diablo on Hell has 60% cold resist hence gets 2k per snowball.
But again u have to assume that stacking pierce isnt that easy anymore because its more rare to find? or values are much lower.
So again this Sorc that has -30% cold pierce has actually made it his build to be strong Cold Sorc.
--
The same logic u can apply to monsters, champions or whatever.
--
Also, logically and realistically not all bosses should have the same resists. Maybe Diablo has 90% fire resist even in normal, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:58 am 
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Or just increase boss absorbs and not do all that pointless work.

Everything is going back to how it was pre 1.7 anyways and casters were fine then.

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:13 am 

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Oh right! there is absorb as well!


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:33 pm 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
Reset. I've never been a fan of long ladders.


I hope after this, it will be a longer ladder though. Most people probably don't want 6 week seasons lol


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:17 pm 

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In regards to immunities, I'm just not a massive fan of having to have a convic/lr bot following you around in order to do damage. I'm not sure how big the groups people play with are here on HU but mine is 3 people normally, and if none of us feels like playing an lr/convic bot it means we are going to have a very bad time in the game. Forcing a 2-3 person group into having a paladin or necro no matter what to deal elemental (and now any physical damage the majority of the time because almost everything is phys immune and cant be broken by lvl 6 ctc amp) damage just seems like bad design, in my opinion at least. If we are so dead set on having immunities and ridiculous rotating immunities making half the end game mobs take zero damage from everything for periods of time why not bring back something like amp/lr charges on wands.

I know this hasn't gotten much attention because as far as I can tell I'm the only person playing a phys char endgame this patch, but physical immunity this time around is absolutely horrible. There is no good amp, no one takes it because no is playing phys. I have to rely on ctc lvl 6 amp or be useless on anything that spawns stone skin because for some reason everything a5+ has to have base massive phys res. Why is this? The one saving grace for me is that I can farm ancients way and the undead before azmo/belial even though its 100% phys immune because the 90 quiver has sanc to break it. Something needs to be done honestly.


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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Already taken care of

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 Post subject: Re: Return to skill synergies or stay with no synergies?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:30 pm 

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Convert wrote:
In regards to immunities, I'm just not a massive fan of having to have a convic/lr bot following you around in order to do damage. I'm not sure how big the groups people play with are here on HU but mine is 3 people normally, and if none of us feels like playing an lr/convic bot it means we are going to have a very bad time in the game. Forcing a 2-3 person group into having a paladin or necro no matter what to deal elemental (and now any physical damage the majority of the time because almost everything is phys immune and cant be broken by lvl 6 ctc amp) damage just seems like bad design, in my opinion at least. If we are so dead set on having immunities and ridiculous rotating immunities making half the end game mobs take zero damage from everything for periods of time why not bring back something like amp/lr charges on wands.

I know this hasn't gotten much attention because as far as I can tell I'm the only person playing a phys char endgame this patch, but physical immunity this time around is absolutely horrible. There is no good amp, no one takes it because no is playing phys. I have to rely on ctc lvl 6 amp or be useless on anything that spawns stone skin because for some reason everything a5+ has to have base massive phys res. Why is this? The one saving grace for me is that I can farm ancients way and the undead before azmo/belial even though its 100% phys immune because the 90 quiver has sanc to break it. Something needs to be done honestly.


and that is precisely why i stayed away from melees. until there is more availability of physical pierce or amp is stronger i think melees/phys dmg builds will be 2nd tier compared to elemental.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:38 pm 
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lvl 1 amp will be increased to -15
trash phys res is reduced by 10-15% in nm/hell
melee phys damage in general is getting "buffed" by going back to 1.5 balance numbers
bosses are going from ~17% absorb to 30-40% absorb
min spawn is going from 300% to 200%, which means CB is stronger
increased dr% availability on tank gear
added dr% magic suffix that comes with -energy so casters cant roll dr% with +skills and pierce on rares with out a damage penalty from the energy reduction
leech is going back to the way it was in 1.5

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:40 pm 

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ok that looks like phys based will be good again. now im excited for this new version!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:55 pm 

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What are the levels/amounts for the DR%? Also, is ed% still going to capped at 255%? I think this is too low because it means any item that rolls with +max/lvl or any dmg%/lvl is just infinitely better. There can be a 250-300 rare/craft mod for melee only...I don't think bowas need it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:10 am 
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everything is going back to 1.5 values (how many times have i said this?)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:22 am 

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Can you add a recipe to upgrade white to magic?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:45 am 

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I don't remember, 1.5 was the first without rejuvs? It would have been good, just the potions were shitty. It can be a good base.
Post a test patch when you feel like it's ready for it. I'll put some time in it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:46 am 

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Convert wrote:
In regards to immunities, I'm just not a massive fan of having to have a convic/lr bot following you around in order to do damage. I'm not sure how big the groups people play with are here on HU but mine is 3 people normally, and if none of us feels like playing an lr/convic bot it means we are going to have a very bad time in the game. Forcing a 2-3 person group into having a paladin or necro no matter what to deal elemental (and now any physical damage the majority of the time because almost everything is phys immune and cant be broken by lvl 6 ctc amp) damage just seems like bad design, in my opinion at least. If we are so dead set on having immunities and ridiculous rotating immunities making half the end game mobs take zero damage from everything for periods of time why not bring back something like amp/lr charges on wands.

I know this hasn't gotten much attention because as far as I can tell I'm the only person playing a phys char endgame this patch, but physical immunity this time around is absolutely horrible. There is no good amp, no one takes it because no is playing phys. I have to rely on ctc lvl 6 amp or be useless on anything that spawns stone skin because for some reason everything a5+ has to have base massive phys res. Why is this? The one saving grace for me is that I can farm ancients way and the undead before azmo/belial even though its 100% phys immune because the 90 quiver has sanc to break it. Something needs to be done honestly.


I hate immunities as well. Having Absorb, resists, pierce etc i dont see how u cant make a balanced game without immunities.
I think its mostly immunities being in vanilla so ppl feel entitled to carry them in their mods. Physical immune? uggh, dont want to see it. Almost all cases immunities are totally unrealistic and as a physical char u shouldnt need a skill from another class to play the game. Thats just a bad design.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:44 am 
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So dramatic....Immunites have never really been a huge challenge, get a merc.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:12 am 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
So dramatic....Immunites have never really been a huge challenge, get a merc.

Until they get 1 shot by a charger, exploder, or half the mobs in the game that are now npc-slayers. My merc is wearing War, Hatred, Veil, Steelrend, Worldstone, Shadowdancer, 2x con ring, rising sun and still just gets obliterated. That's what, 70% pdr and 10% sorb with stacked res? Anyway, it's a small gripe.

As you said you've already addressed the phys problem and I'm infinitely grateful as I dislike playing casters. Looking forward to the patch, I'll definitely put in some time testing it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:30 pm 

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Ensley03 wrote:
Can you add a recipe to upgrade white to magic?


plz respond


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:57 pm 

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Synergies have no downside? Outside of perhaps being harder to balance, but they provide a smooth transition through leveling into the 70s and limit the amount of utility you can fit.

It makes skills like hurricane able to be main skills because they aren’t 20 point, it forces an assassin to drop 60 points down a trap line so they arent free to max a secondar element of dps, both summons, and something else.

The problem arises when the modder doesn’t understand how certain classes or specs work, or over synergize skills to the point it locks out clear must take utility.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Yeah....we already decided to go back to synergies, but nice story.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:40 am 
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While the no synergies system its fun, having so many options to play that we didnt have before, and everyone talks about how certain builds can be op, most of the balance issues come around summons... whats makes me think, question #1: Is the game as it is right now, too easy without summons? in my personal experience i have 3 chars without summons, pala, fury dog, sorc, and the game up to a3 nm doesnt feel easy at all, not sure if someone else can relate, fighting most bosses is a pain even with over 20% sorbs, full vita build, dr/mdr, stacked res, etc, but still doable and fun, and im talking about solo, duo or trio fights, but whenever a zon or sin comes around with their summons the fight becomes easy.

question #2: how many people can actually tell they can easily go thru the game with a certain build with no problem? (leaving aside rabies build with summons) there are certain points ive seen in this thread that you people mention that are true but they arent as accurate for every class in general, for example: maxing 2 kind of dps skills easily and early in the game... yes.. you can, but that doesnt makes you entirely op, because, if a skill individually makes u strong, doesnt mean that having another as strong will make you double the strong, and we have the case of the sorc... you could go easily spamming at max fcr an skill to trash and have another that also rapes but you use only one, or switch depending the boss or situation, we have the barb, swapping gear to warcry thru certain situation and melee to another...
I do agree that a druid spreading rabies while hurricaning and armaggedoning while the bear facetanks all sounds like a ridiculous op, but maybe there is another way to work things around in this case.

Something comes to mind, instead of bringing back the old synergies system... by first identifying wich combo builds are op, we could have a new system, for example, skills that doesnt match, adding pts to one, makes weaker the other. This wont force you to have a certain skill that you dont want or like just to enhance that skill that you do like... like maxing twister for nado... or firewall for blaze... or battlecry for warcry etc etc etc


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:46 am 
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This is what I have changed it to right now. Skills are either 40 or 60 pt builds, except for assassin MA skills which are self synergies.

magicarrow/inersight
cold arrow/slowmissile
fire arrow/slowmissile
exploding arrow/immolation arrow
icearrow/frozen arrow
disease spray/plague jav/poison jav
lightning bolt/slowmissile
charged strike/slowmissile
lightning strike/slowmissile
lightning fury/lightning bolt/slowmissile

firebolt/fireball/meteor
enchant/hydra
flamewave/firewall/blaze
icebolt/frozenorb
iceblast/frozen armor
frost nova/chillingarmor/shiver armor
blizzard/glacialspike
chargedbolt/tk
lightning/chainlightning
nova/ts/static

teeth/bonespear/bonespirit
poisondagger/poisonexplosion/poisonnova

bolt/hammer/foh
holyshock/res lightning/conviction
holyfire/res fire/conviction
holyfrost/res cold/conviction
sanctuary/conversion/conviction

warcry/battleorders/shout

poisoncreeper/rabies
firestorm/volcano/armageddon
moltenboulder/fissure/armageddon
fireclaws/armageddon
arcticblast/cyclonearmor/hurricane
twister/cyclonearmor/hurricane
tornado/cyclonearmor/hurricane
frostbite/hurricane
armageddon (all fire skills synergize armageddon)
hurricane Armageddon (all cold skills synergize armageddon)

fists of fire (self synergy)
blades of ice (self synergy)
claws of thunder (self synergy)
cobra strike (self synergy)
phoenix strike (self synergy)
psychic hammer/mindblast
fireblast/wake of fire/wake of inferno
shockweb/charged bolt sentry/lightning sentry

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:51 am 

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I don't think BH should require HB and FOH for synergies because it also requires conc and that makes it an 80 point skill. Just BH and FOH.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:55 am 
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I'll change that

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:37 am 

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@Mrawskrad
First of all, dont mind me, and forgive me if i sound disrespectful and bland with my comments. Trust me my intent is not to be any of those. I just share my point of view without/opinion without thinking if it will bother others.
Believe it or not i do respect the time ANY developers spends to create what he does. But on the other hand i dont think its right to not share ideas/opinions and just be silenced...
In the end, no matter if i like or not what u created, you are the one that takes the final decision and i cant force u otherwise.

---

About the Merc. This is funny :) , because i dont like using Merc/companion in ANY RPG :)
I like to have full manual control the battles.

------

To me syngeries are just another form of forced builds, something like skill pre-reqs used to be. Hell, they arent even realistic in any way.

------

There are some brutal facts that we all know but we dont speak out about them. Some of these facts are:
1)We have played too much D2. Its like we have seen and experienced it all.
2)We have played too many other RPGs
So considering 1 and 2 you can safely say that the expectation bar is high for the existing mods and that puts pressure on the developers. saddly :(

So what we basically WANT TO do here, in this particular forum, which is one of the most active D2 forums? (not sure but its pretty active) is to conclude on what makes a D2 mod, or hell, any ARPG good.
I personally could mention all the things I think arent good for HU and how they should be changed to make the mod better, but i dont, because:
I would probably recommend mostly the same for every other mod out there. And im pretty sure we are all like that. So, based on whos ideas should mods be created ? Should all mods be the same?
I guess we can say: let every mod be its own thing, with its downsides and upsides. After all whats good or not its kind of subjective (considering u are not biased and act like a fun boy..?).
OR, maybe there are some actual key factors that make good games and bad games?

Again, i could share my point of view but i wont until i see the person who is actually developing the mod to be open, willing to create and reform the mod. Its totally understandable if the person doesnt have the time.
Anyway, i THINK this was something that needed to be said (or maybe im wrong?). We should accept things are they are and move on. It is what it is.
This was also something i needed to remind to myself :)


/peace guys.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:58 am 

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Bringing back synergies out of nowhere when no one asked for them to bring them back is unnecessary to me but it is what it is i guess.

I think WW should recieve atleast one synergie, and it should be smoething like Bash, Stun or Konc.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:31 am 

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Agree to disagree @joozoo. IMO bringing back synergies will control op hybrid ele builds. 40/60 pts main skills look quite reasonable to me. Will help balance the game without nerfing casters to oblivion or suffocating specific chars/builds too much. You can spend remaining pts on a lower dmg output secondary skill, or you can go for summons/curses/passives.
Although I'm not a big fan of melee builds it would be nice to bring them back on track.
About trapsins: Instead of messing around with pierce in general reducing pierce on claws or just simply adjusting skill dmg output to dual claw would do the trick.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:45 am 
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I'm open to ideas, if they are good. But most people make suggestions with no knowledge of modding d2 and suggest things that aren't feasible or worth the time it would take to implement.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:18 am 

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Are you keeping WC/shockwave the same as they are now, as far as better range and decent damage goes? I remember they were never used in 1.5.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:32 am 
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yes

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm 

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Did someone really just basically say: "I know exactly how to fix your mod for you and make it the best mod ever, but I won't until you *prove* you deserve my help"...?

If you're that much smarter than Mrawskrad, and Ensley, and everyone who has ever tried their hand at this mod since Soulmancer, go make 2.1 and throw your test files up here, I'm sure we'd all love to see them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:18 pm 
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lol

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:36 pm 

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Bahookay wrote:
Did someone really just basically say: "I know exactly how to fix your mod for you and make it the best mod ever, but I won't until you *prove* you deserve my help"...?

If you're that much smarter than Mrawskrad, and Ensley, and everyone who has ever tried their hand at this mod since Soulmancer, go make 2.1 and throw your test files up here, I'm sure we'd all love to see them.


Wow kid, relax with the insults. Maybe land on earth? You know u can Quote me...!
Speaking in third person as if i am some kind of peasant that your royalty cant be bothered with... really?
You know ppl like u remind me why i shouldnt share my ideas (cause i think my ideas are good) because i will never get credit for them, just like some other devs dont get the credit they deserve when it comes to HU modding. I despise your kind but unlike you i can tell it in your "beautiful" face.

And yes, i made up this conclusion just by seeing the way u addressed me. Says a lot.

---

I dont know how to fix HU. I know how to FIX EVERY D2 or ARPG. Thats what i said. You still dont get it? Basically what i said is: I have MY IDEAL ARPG in my mind (just like some other ppl, because not all ppl do) but its kind of stupid to go around and tell the world about it if they dont really care to listen, they arent open to different ideas because they have made up their minds or just dont have the time to do so.

---

I have my principle ideas but i m pretty much clueless when it comes to modding and i also dont know if i am not lazy enough to first LEARN how, then implement them.
Anyway, i as i said i respect the time devs spend to create what they create, but i am not going to pretend i like something when in actuality i dont, unlike ppl like you, who even lack the ballz to speak up their minds against someone that they consider *higher ranked* (cause thats how u think) or lack any sort of creativity.
Just make me a favor, I F a time comes and u see a mod created by me, PLEASE dont play it.

----------------------

@ALL
Is HU "open source"? I mean anyone can pick it up and create his own version?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:10 pm 

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Hahahahaha, what a wild ride of a response that was, if only you weren't crippled by a complete lack of know-how when it comes to modding, I'd love to play the pinnacle of ARPGs that you clearly have rolling around in that noggin of yours.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:34 pm 

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Yes it's open source, you just need the tools and know-how to open, edit, and repack all of it.

HU is different from other mods because it has never deviated that far from D2 and is more viewed as what could have been a D2 expansion after LOD. At least that's what I think Mraw and myself have tried to do with Soulmancer's vision. Other mods create crazy new skills, items, and playstyles. Maybe that makes them more unique than HU; good for them. I don't think anyone who still plays HU wants to see drastic game changes. I think that's part of why some people were not too keen on 1.7; it added some great new things and areas but it also added a lot that was just really different. If you have ideas that you think would make a cool mod, that's great, but it just doesn't apply to HU. The only ideas that really matter here are balance ideas.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Synergies do limit builds, that is one of the points of it. Another other is to provide better/different skills as you master xyz idea. And the last is to provide a way to challenge players by giving some monsters that are harder for you to kill than the other build next to you.

Quote:
... About the Merc. This is funny :) , because i dont like using Merc/companion in ANY RPG :)
I like to have full manual control the battles...


If you don't play with a merc, then tough cookies. If you make to make a Pious challenge, then do it, but the mod should not be built around NOT using a merc. They generally will disappear at most bosses anyway. If you have chosen a seriously one trick pony, then expect to meet a few mules.

Quote:
...HU is different from other mods because it has never deviated that far from D2 and is more viewed as what could have been a D2 expansion after LOD. At least that's what I think Mraw and myself have tried to do with Soulmancer's vision.


To be honest, you tend to make the single player version of it, not the multiplayer version of it. The game on the servers is meant to be hard.

It will flat stop some new players in their tracks. Good. It will continue to stop those that do not understand the mechanics of the game to some nontrivial level. You shouldn't just literally get to walk from begninning to end with virtually no effort. Otherwise just go play vanilla and load up a bot and drink coffee for the win.

The more approachable everything is, the more boring it becomes. Now I know that I have been a little hyperbolic, and thrown it allllllllll at you, but hopefully the point is clear (and yes the other extreme is even less palatable).

The early 1.3s and 1.5? were the closest we have been to Soulmancer's final 1.21z patch. Period. It's time to play a game that feels like those again. The 1.3s made melee quite a bit harder to play. I actually enjoyed them as a melee char.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Synergy's need to come back, been testing without and seriously funny.

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