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 Post subject: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Personaly, I think this is a fair change to make, BUT MAKE A DAMN NOTE ABOUT SOMTHING SO CRUCIAL FFS. I wasted all season making this build and waiting till end game for it to work,only to find it got crushed! lvl 94 rabies druid FTW (not) Anyway,Im giving this post as a heads up to anyone else who had the same thing in mind so they dont reach the end aswell only to realize they wasted quite a few skills.

my main complaint is that in patch notes, it mentions buffs and nerfs but totaly ignores the fact that the conventional rabies druid got ANNIHILIATED. just a slight mention would have been enough, like okay, were taking out the carrion synergy so if you wana do rabies you gota max the other skill now, that would have been a nice heads up. I DIDNT EVEN FIND THE RING TILL 94,so finding it at that point, id pretty much used all my skill pts and its now impossible to put pts into the other synergy now.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:52 pm 
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ITT: Someone trying to take the easy way out hits a brick wall.

9/10 Terry.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:04 am 
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LOL
LOL
LOL
those stupid nub druids that tried to say i use followbot that play together and were both building rabies and not putting a pt in creeper so we could cruise through early game trash got owned :D

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:00 am 
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It's not funny, but I couldn't help but laugh.

Bummer man.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:06 am 
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Well i'm not laughing at the lvl 94 with a gimp build. I do agree ther should have been something in the notes. Question is, is rabies viable? i have a would be rabies druid in its 30's hero editor lvl 34 rabies does 27k less over 8.1 seconds with no other modifiers with the difference in synergy. That gap would only increase with % modifiers, imo, not a big deal. Discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:18 am 
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a friend of mine made a rabies druid with maxed creeper last patch just to see how it would cope later on.

The build was garbage, with a 44% bramble, and other really good +poison% and alot of +skills it was aroung 70k and struggled even against trash. Since using bramble means you cant use templars for some decent pierce, if you were using a -res setup its still terrible. Broken build now imo.

Since every druid will want a maxed spirit that now leaves 40 points for a hybrid. 20 on a summon and 20 in lycan? then your damage is terrible and you are still basicaly no use. 20 lycan 20 fury? that could work but your equip is setup for +skills and poison damage as you wont have much in the way of melee mods on your equip.

*swiftly changes mind and decides to do frostbite druid instead*

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:13 am 

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LmT wrote:
ITT: Someone trying to take the easy way out hits a brick wall.

9/10 Terry.


Easy way out? What exactly are you trying to say? I fail to see how planning on using an item that basically makes or breaks a build is taking the easy way out.

If you wanna talk about easy ways out, how about you playing the same exact build(hammerdin) the last few ladders as if it is some sort of accomplishment? Hammers are easily one of the best(if not the best) characters at killing act bosses untwinked. It really is no surprise to me it's all you play.


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:35 am 
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Nice work. Guess I can delete the summoner/rabies druid I just started (lvl25).

How bout this for a "funny" surprise-

when sorcs make TFK, instead of conviction aura, it has lvl1 thorns. ho ho ho.

Never happen though because it was a douche like LMT that probably suggested this change.


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:22 am 
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Change the thread title to-

"fuck you melee players, especially druids"

Not sure I even want to play this mod if this is the kind of sneaky little bitch crap that gets pulled.


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:15 am 
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drrod wrote:
If you wanna talk about easy ways out, how about you playing the same exact build(hammerdin) the last few ladders as if it is some sort of accomplishment? Hammers are easily one of the best(if not the best) characters at killing act bosses untwinked. It really is no surprise to me it's all you play.


The only reason I killed Darkness, Norm ancients (1 shot by korlic), and a lot of other mini bosses was because of my team mate. If you want to look at the best untwinked boss killer, look at him. I only do about 20-30% of the damage from any given fight and about 10% of that is thorns dmg.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:23 am 
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This is a good change, requiring a build to rely on a single item is always a bad call. If there is a problem with the skills themselves, repair the skills - but don't continue to rely on an item to make the skills work.

Bummer that there wasn't a note in the patch release, but I do think this is a good change.

In my personal opinion, Rabies druids should have to sacrifice more points to build up their offensive skills as they are much more defensive in nature than fire/cold shapeshifters who need to constantly re-apply their elemental damage to their target. A rabies druid can hit and back off while the psn infects their targets. Glad to see this change finally got implemented.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:46 am 
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the problem is the build is broken. Major changes should never be implemented on a final patch with no testing. why not repair carrion and add ravens as a synergy for the duration? (the only solution i can think of that wouldnt affect current builds) unless its possible to change the % synergy to make 20 hardpoints worth it. Any rabies druid would spend the 20 points into creeper if it could get them near the damage they had before, not having the option to do so is ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:58 am 
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Zikur wrote:
the problem is the build is broken


Don't think I am convinced of that.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Since every druid will want a maxed spirit


Rabies druids won't be able to max spirit.

Just need to try some different patterns.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:12 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Zikur wrote:
the problem is the build is broken


Don't think I am convinced of that.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Since every druid will want a maxed spirit


Rabies druids won't be able to max spirit.

Just need to try some different patterns.


What will it take to convince you? Do you automatically assume DoD is lying?

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:18 am 
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Why do you need a maxed spirit? I'm pretty sure that + skills and party members can make up for the lack of whatever points you're missing.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:23 am 
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Zikur wrote:
What will it take to convince you? Do you automatically assume DoD is lying?


Am I opposed to a future buff in rabies damage? Sure - why not.
Do I think it was a good move to remove the synergy ring? Most definetly.
Do I think the build is broken? No, I suspect the build is still very playable, just not the powerhouse build that it was before.

I tend to take the comments of this community with a grain of salt as most of you are only interested in powerhouse builds and the best possible gear. Rabies was very powerful before and it was thus rather popular with this community. It is no longer so powerful and is thus less popular, but that doesn't mean that it is not balanced. There is an odd dichotomy in this mod where people repeatedly seek for things to be more difficult, but then continue to take the easy way through the game (via the strongest builds and the most powerful weapons).

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:31 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Zikur wrote:
What will it take to convince you? Do you automatically assume DoD is lying?


Am I opposed to a future buff in rabies damage? Sure - why not.
Do I think it was a good move to remove the synergy ring? Most definetly.
Do I think the build is broken? No, I suspect the build is still very playable, just not the powerhouse build that it was before.

I tend to take the comments of this community with a grain of salt as most of you are only interested in powerhouse builds and the best possible gear. Rabies was very powerful before and it was thus rather popular with this community. It is no longer so powerful and is thus less popular, but that doesn't mean that it is not balanced. There is an odd dichotomy in this mod where people repeatedly seek for things to be more difficult, but then continue to take the easy way through the game (via the strongest builds and the most powerful weapons).

My complaint is that their damage was cut down and now deal about 1/3 the damage they dealt before, this with no beta test leads to a much weaker build. Poison always deals lots of damage, look at the numbers on the zon tree (ZOMG NERFF!!!) I know that numbers are not the issue, as the druid is always a very good team member, my point is it is a huge damage nerf since it reduces the synergy damage which reflects on the damage bonus to each + skill you can aquire on the character. If points were the issue, thats fine. Remove the carrion but buff the damage. Plenty of builds can be considered a powerhouse when they are fully geared with charms ect.
You should also be able to tell I understand the issue of this community wanting a hard mod as long as it is easy, otherwise there would have been a key change to the anti hack that Purerage and I were flamed for supporting. That change would have been the best change to the mod since the removal of CI.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:23 am 
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I guess if Rabies requires one solid skill synergy "making it unviable because it costs too many skill points" then frost bite and fire claw druids must really lick balls given they require 2 synergies as opposed to 1... Yet I never heard complaints they were unviable for that reason. To say rabies is only viable without having to spend any hard synergy points is pretty week...

I made a comment about having buffed rabies early on and was met by strong opposition saying the skill was already much too strong...


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:05 pm 
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Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying and suggesting ( I suggested ADDING a synergy) I also said that the ability to spend 30 hard points into a synergy isn't possible, one synergy at 20 points was on the weak side if 30 and one is too strong make 40 and two and slightly weaker, I don't know how the end tables balance out, but 1/3 damage end game doesn't tally well.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:05 pm 
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its not the fact that you have to spend 40 points on the build, its the fact that a 20 point synergie is seriously underpowering. If the skill was made so it was as strong as it was before (maybe even a 10% drop in power) from a 20 point synergie that would be fine. The fact is that a 20 point synergie is not enough for this build. The ones people were saying were overpowered were only saying that because they were basing this on an endgame build loaded with skill charms.

Lets look at it this way
Image
That is a level 100 druid, with templars fully faceted, 4 shapeshift skillers 5 summons skillers, the rest are big life charms, anni, heart and brain too, all of his equip there is dedicated to + skills etc yet he only hits 26xk over 8 seconds

doing some quick math thats 31.4k a second. My frostbiter with no skillers and a no heart or brain was doing 5k more than that and he was attacking 12.5 attacks a second not including a 10k damage hurricane. Now 31.4k a second is terrible dps for an endgame build, so he was very reliant of -res, but still its not as strong most of the other classes. Most druids do 30+k per hit and are hitting alot more that once a second.

Secondly, these other druid builds all have lifeleech to help them survive. Not so with the rabies druid Other druids have damage reduce equip and absorbs easily. not so with this druid again.

A friend of mine *Delta made a rabies druid and maxed creeper last season to see how it was. With no passive pierce and loaded up with +% equip. (really loaded up with it) he was barely scratching 70k over 8.4 seconds... you do the math. an andgame build doing less than 10k per sec damage withno passive pierce etc is total garbage and a waste of time.

Again. I have no issue with removing the charges on the ring at all. The new rabies build could go as follows easily. max lycan, oak, rabies, poison vine, and a summon of choice (wolves or bear) thats fine. Hell even make it a 60 point build and make carrion vine a second synergie and drop the synergie % on both a very little. The damage is so rediculously underpowered with a 20 point synergie though it is not worth making. Load one up in single player if you dont believe me guys but I know for a fact that the synergie is not enough. The build was fine as it was. It was a fun variant on the druid and the only reason said they were overpowered is because they were basing it on a level 99-100 build with perfect gear, perfect charms and killing lower in hell than act 5.

I played mine from start to finish and it was not easy, they were basicaly an oak bitch early on and once packing a carrion they were good. I would not say they were over powered. (maybe with 19 skillers, perf templars perf faceted with perf facets in every socket AND the anni heart and brain charm. as a regular build progressing there is nothing overpowered about them in the slightest.

Raising skill charm levels, lowering the drop rate was all that was needed for this build to be perfectly balanced (it was pretty much there anyway). Unfortunately it is broken now and wont be used...

No wonder people keep builds to themselves as if they breathe a word about a good build it is pretty much destroyed, yet the hammerdin is still raping bosses easily. Thats the main reason I will never make a hammerdin. I would have made rabies again but not now.

1 more thing. If rabies was overpowered then frostbite and fireclaws was waaaaaay overpowered, they easily out dps a rabies druid even without skillers.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:19 pm 
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You've effectively removed rabies as a skill.

Why? Because not only have you slashed the psn creeper synergy from 30 down to 20 points (I would like to see you put 30 hard points in any skill), but you also changed skillers such that we will all have much fewer of them. Forget having 16 skillers, you'll be lucky to have a few.

So instead of a viable skill, rabies is another useless, low damage skill that can't be made viable even with the best items in the game, nevermind just ordinary gear.

Oh, and did you buff rabies/creeper synergy to allow us to at least spend the points and make it viable? No.


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:29 pm 
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There are a few differences between a rabies druid and fire/cold druids though:

1. AoE skill - you should be able to be applying your 260k dmg to a large group of monsters rather than the single application that a fire/cold druid is doing.

2. No tanking required - much like the psn strike necro, this is a hit and wait skill. With the strong druid summons, you should be able to keep yourself out of the fray rather than the fire/cold druid who needs to be going toe to toe.

With both of that said, I will agree that with the dmg drop a rabies druid is the weakest of the 3 elemental druids. Mostly because fire/cold druids are really dual element characters in that they can combine physical dmg with their cold/fire attacks. This not only gives them great leech but access to crushing blow. I personally think that cold/fire druids may be a bit strong though; not necesarily a bad thing as lots of people like strong characters.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:40 pm 
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oh yeh before I forget, LmT and blue. A rabies druid cant max oak? thats just daft as losing a maxed summon and having oak will be alot more productive. also since you have no real way to leech life as your setup MUST be reliant on +skills and +%damage (mostly will be +shapeshift and NOT summons for oak) so you will have sub par life later on and no way to leech life back against bosses?

@LmT, let +skills pump oak? as in the strongest party life buff in the game? as in the thing that will make your summons last? do you really not see whare im going with this?

just seing your post blue (I love the forums now showing if a post has been made while you are typing).

fire/cold melee druids have crazy life leech as they can charge up feral and maul and put that to use. so there is no need to hide behind summons. They also have 2 50% synergies and do the same damage in 1 hit, that rabies WAS doing in 1 whole second. thats not right.

anyone can kill trash. Infact I would just let my merc kill trash for me without much trouble and save my weapon durability. Even against trash it was still taking a few secs to kill stuff.

fireclaws can get great aoe from a phoenix shield. 66% chance to cast a 9k firestorm on attack with 12.5 attacks a second clears trash alot faster than rabies. My frostbiters hurricane killed the small stuff in no time and anything else was down in a fraction of a second anyway so trash is no problem.

The rabies druid was a great fun build and it no longer is. I wouldnt even waste weapon durability using rabies now as at level 8 when you hire a merc the poison damage will blow compared to her if she is equiped right.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:42 pm 
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@LmT, let +skills pump oak? as in the strongest party life buff in the game? as in the thing that will make your summons last? do you really not see whare im going with this?


Rabies druids rely on summons...?

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:43 pm 
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sounds like rabies isn't a build for you anymore - that's fine.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and am building a rabies druid at the moment. I suspect it will be an enjoyable ride.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:56 pm 
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LmT, did you bang your head?

I have one more point before I make dinner

blue_myriddn wrote:
I tend to take the comments of this community with a grain of salt as most of you are only interested in powerhouse builds and the best possible gear. Rabies was very powerful before and it was thus rather popular with this community. It is no longer so powerful and is thus less popular, but that doesn't mean that it is not balanced. There is an odd dichotomy in this mod where people repeatedly seek for things to be more difficult, but then continue to take the easy way through the game (via the strongest builds and the most powerful weapons).


yet the fact that I played my rabies druid from start to finish and had average gear until after he hit 100 and I had a low amount of skillers counts for nothing?

If something is overpowered I say so. like static that was not changed enough. in my opinion the radius was not the problem, it was the damage on it. the range would have been fine if it was 1/6 or even 1/8 the damage of nova, thus making it the skill to get rid of the fallens etc and nova to take down say gargantuan beasts (sp?) etc. The problem is, people who have not made a build that is doing well call for a nerf because they dont know the time and effort and quality of equipment the builds are actualy using. Hammerdins doing 40k+ per hammer against bosses and ignoring the mag resistance only needed a minor nerf but a much much lower dps skill needed a complete overhaul? Im really disapointed with the change. Not the fact that the ring synergie was removed but that the skill was not adjusted to still come out at around the same damage for a bigger point investment.

Edit: your quite right blue. Im not spending time building a char that is basicaly an oak bitch. good luck with your build. I wouldnt pass judgement on it until late nightmare though remember once you have spent your 40 points, that is basicaly your endgame damage (+skills gear and +%damage will come but the damage boost will be minuscule as it is over 8.4 seconds)

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:06 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
sounds like rabies isn't a build for you anymore - that's fine.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and am building a rabies druid at the moment. I suspect it will be an enjoyable ride.


Good. I can laugh at your lvl~43 mule next week when you realize how wrong you were.


Last edited by nedder on Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:10 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Im really disapointed with the change. Not the fact that the ring synergie was removed but that the skill was not adjusted to still come out at around the same damage for a bigger point investment.


Nothing like spending 20 more skill points only to find out you do 1/2 or 1/3 the damage previously.

Meanwhile we still have hammerdins, cold sorcs and now teethers doing massive AoE damage.

What a stupid, short-sighted nerf.


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:38 pm 
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LOL Blue what are we to expect that you will play the build and say oh no it sucks change it back?? Skelemage mancer ring a bell that build was GG to for ya. Gl with druid bud show us all the greatness it has the potential for =).

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though don't have much faith in melee characters right now, with the huge CB nerf physical melee characters may as well be hitting bosses with a cardboard sword and it doesn't appear the damage boost from str has helped alleviate that.


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Changes that make or break builds should be posted in large bold letters. Something as vague as "uniques have been tweaked" doesn't give any warning as to what exactly has been changed. In this case, it broke the build because we were planning on fury/rabies hybrid and that didn't work as planned.

I don't see any potential for rabies at this point. You'd be better off making a poison zon or a poison necro in my opinion, unless you enjoy being an oak bitch.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:45 pm 
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its interesting, million dollars says if i didnt make this post at least someone else would have waited till endgame to make the same mistake i did. instead of agreement, a few of you dare to make fun of this for helping the community? GG.

I admit the change was good, but we should have been notified of it!


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:08 pm 
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I'm laughing at the kids that were in my game, damnitisuck and I were telling one of them to put a point into psn creeper, there were 3 druids in our game and we had none, they just kept saying no psn creeper, fury ftw.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Alexius wrote:
I admit the change was good, but we should have been notified of it!


This community and humans in general are entitled to nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:02 pm 
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If the skill had been modified in a sensible way, like the %'s changed or a synergy added, it would have provided reason for a player to go wtf? Instead its all the same minus the build making synergy. That's the problem, it's all the same except a really big change - that nobody had any way of knowing.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:14 pm 
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LmT wrote:
Alexius wrote:
I admit the change was good, but we should have been notified of it!


This community and humans in general are entitled to nothing.


good will doesn't exist in your opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:36 pm 
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Yeah that sucks man, shoulda been in the notes. Kinda gray area tho I mean technically that isn't the build he changed at all just the bug you guys exploited so it wasn't a build change per say.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:08 pm 
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Soulmancer has said himself he had no idea the rabies druid was 'so strong' so he must have been aware that it was built around the ring because no 20 pt creeper build will ever be 'strong'

-Slightly saddened to remember blue's skelemage mancer build and the bias we will get when a build that has a hard time with trash will be presented as decent and viable :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:37 pm 
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I can increase the synergy provided by Poison Creeper to compinsate but it wont right away


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:47 pm 
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I personally would like to see an entire synergy added if it's a matter of the 40pt build that will restrict its power. All the other psn builds are 60 pt builds so why not the druid, he will stull have 20 pts for oak and 20 for lycan or a summon of his choosing. I may be alone on that but I do believe a rabies druid's dps should atleast be near the range of it's ele counterparts, and if it requires a heavier investment sobeit.
My suggestions for the additional synergy would be ravens ,carrion vine, or spirit of the barbs. Only skills I can think of that are not currently in use in the skill tree but could be atleast of some use with more points in them (though I don't see ravens doing much and SoB is a one point wonder :roll: )

Just my input on it.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:23 am 

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I like the idea of a second synergy too, something like the previous poster said (something little used in the Summoning tree like Ravens).


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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:44 am 
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Soulmancer wrote:
I can increase the synergy provided by Poison Creeper to compinsate but it wont right away


I personally think that might be a good idea as well as my thought of making Spirit of the Barbs provide a modest -psn resist boost. Something that isn't going to grow really fast so that dumping 20 points in to SoB is sort of a waste. Something more like a 5-10 point investment. ie. lvl30 SoB may only provide an additional -4% enemy psn resist over lvl20 SoB.

I have the rabies druid up to lvl40 now and while the dmg may look not bad at the moment (around 4k) it is spread out over 6 seconds which makes it a relatively slow killer. I am less concerned about overpowering the low level by increasing the Poision Creeper synergy than I was before.

I also think that a few good items would be helpful too - I can give them some thought and post what I have in mind.

While another synergy altogether would make for the strongest end game damage, it would make this build all too similar to the other elemental builds and I currently think there is something nice about making poison distinctive in having only a single synergy. Keeps the game fresh to have variety in the builds that way in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:43 pm 
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increasing it to 50% would provide roughly the same increase as before but with the need to spend an extra 20 points. I don't see any problem with that

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:56 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
increasing it to 50% would provide roughly the same increase as before but with the need to spend an extra 20 points. I don't see any problem with that



The euro has a point. 50% might be a little OP...

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 Post subject: Re: NEGATIVE PATCH CHANGES
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:54 pm 
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blow me :o

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