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 Post subject: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:36 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:28 am
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I was just wondering if this was possible. I know its easy to mess up with just a single click and since this isn't exactly ladder/b.net, I was just wondering if someone implemented this into the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:51 am 

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Respec was put in 1.12 IIRC and this mod is built on 1.10 so there's no way to respec if you mess up, you just have to live with it or reroll.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:42 pm 
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It CAN be done.
It is possible in the future, but it would not be as trivial to obtain as on Bnet, if it is ever done at all.
When this was discussed in the past, it was put down like a bad doggie...

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:10 pm 
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It's in 1.7 as a reward for completing all 3 tristram codex trials. I put it in as a testing tool but it seemed like a nice bonus to add for completing that stuff rather than just tossing more stats at the book.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:32 am 

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Thank you all for the hastily responses. I'll be looking forward to 1.7 ^-^

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JuanCanseco


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:05 pm 
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Ya, I didn't want to definitively say anything about 1.7. Thanks for letting them know.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:56 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
It's in 1.7 as a reward for completing all 3 tristram codex trials. I put it in as a testing tool but it seemed like a nice bonus to add for completing that stuff rather than just tossing more stats at the book.


This should be talked about in the future if it should be implemented, as kramuti said it gets shut down all the time, a lot of the players here dont like the idea


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:05 pm 
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I cannot speak for others, but this is why I have always been against the idea in the past.

The way it was implemented in LoD was easily abused in that you could easily stockpile and just say hey i am at boss X, i should just respec to Y and win Z!'. Though LoD was easy enough to not really need this, HU generally presents very specific challenges to each character. Some bosses will be easy with said char, while another is much more of a pain. This would promote the abuse, give new players the impression that 'this is just the way you do it because it is more efficient'.

As long as the reward comes late, and is not able to be used by characters early on, and ideally, can only be done once per character (can this be checked for at all? sorry haven't bothered to look at what this would even really entail...maybe a secondary skill that can only be flipped from off to on...whatever...) then I don't really object.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:26 pm 
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Steps to get a respec pot:

Complete Gidbinn quest in Norm
Complete Norm codex trial
Complete Gidbinn quest in NM
Complete NM codex trial
Complete Gidbinn quest in Hell
Complete Hell codex trial (level 95+)

You get 1 potion for doing all of that. It currently has no level req because it's in as a hp+mana pot recipe while testing but it will have a level req on release (Possibly 85ish so you can maybe trade for one and swap your build at the end of normal if you're not enjoying it or if you start to group up with a similar build and want to change to something different for more party variety, but 95 is more likely as thats the trial level).
There is no limit on how many times you can use it, just a limit on the level you can use it and how many you can get per character. They can be traded freely. If you want to farm another you need to do all the above again on a fresh character. As most will know, the hell trial means each character needs to be well geared and played to just survive on the map.

It's worth noting that due to the way 1.7 is set up, there is no real use x build to beat y then respec, as all builds are pretty equal and are simply played/geared differently. Also that gear doesn't add much in the way of STR/DEX that isn't available in normal difficulty so you can't boost STR to wear gear early game then respec all VIT later and bug gear on, because the stats simply aren't there to allow you to do so.

Nobody has been a stronger supporter of no respec than me I don't think, but I came to the decision that if I don't want it then I don't have to use it. Some people do want it, and who am I to say they shouldn't have the option of switching from a build they finished and no longer enjoy/play, to trying some funky combination of items/skills for an unconventional build without having to start from scratch for a build that may or may not work. Who knows, people might come up with really neat builds we never even considered and if they are fun, we can create new items in later patches that are aimed at those builds. :)

It can be removed in 1.8 if it's really a problem, but we've had much worse things to put up with than having a patch with a way to respec IMO.

Edit: 1.9* As Brevan says below, it will be up to Ensley/Whoever is doing 1.6 > 1.8 if it stays for 1.8

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:37 pm 
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I don't mind the respec potion, although I don't intend to ever use it.

My goal for v1.7 was to get builds balanced enough that the main differences were in how they were played rather than effectiveness, for example a GolemMancer (offensive summoner) feels quite different from playing a SkeleMancer (mainly defensive summoner), or SpiritWolf Druid (SWolves are tanky, and probably used by Elementalist Druids who would deliver the killing blows via spells). With that in mind, I'd like if people just replayed the game as a new build if they didn't enjoy what they'd played before.

Given that most builds are 60 points, and you're level 85 by the end of Norm, then v1.7 gives you a heck of a lot of opportunity to compensate for some error you think you've made with skill points. I can appreciate where some folks will always feel better knowing that they fully synergized their favourite skill to the maximum 80% rather than 78%, so there's a Respec potion available for them if they want to get it.

The Respec potion would be available around character level 95, since that's the level players are expected to be in Hell setting, and the last Codex quest is completed around A3 Hell.

<edit>PureRage posted some similar information while I was typing this, but I don't feel like retyping, so clearly we agree on that information. However, I'd like to remind folks that I'd prefer if v1.8 was based on v1.6, while v1.9 was based on v1.7. The changes between those two versions would be fun to swap between. Also, the Even version could be updated and tested while people play the Odd version for a year, and vice versa.</edit>


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:14 pm 

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When skill trees went up to 36, respecs would have been nice because it was such a detriment to play a build that heavily utilized those skills (like whirlwind) as opposed to ones that only required level 6 (like multishot) to be effective. If the skills are staying at 30 then I don't really see the point but am not really for or against it. I am against rejuvs, since all it's going to do is bring back the bot potting which literally takes 1 minute to write an hkn script for, and the different levels of healing pots is just a nuisance as opposed to generic 'heal 60%' (insert 1.6c joke here) amounts. And please don't try to tell me the leet kids here aren't going to be bot potting again even if you nerfed rejuvs to 15% because it's guaranteed.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:33 pm 
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God mode spams the NPC heal packet (at least the more advanced ones do). Potions have nothing to do with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:35 pm 
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Since v1.7 is based on the v1.3 that I started from, the types and styles of potions were simply inherited from v1.3. I've no idea how they were changed between v1.3 and v1.6, although from forum comments I've pieced together that they're based on a player's max HP and maybe non-Vit stats. That sounds like a great style of potion, but at this point I'd sooner add it to a list of changes to try in v1.9 because I think the current potions in v1.7 are fine.

With regards to hacking, I suppose I don't have a strong opinion about it. The game would certainly lose a lot of fun-factor if I were to hack up some kind of god-mode script exploiting Rejuvs, but I suppose some folks get their kicks out of that stuff. I tend to stop playing with them though, since it's just not much fun.

With regard to late-bloomer builds (waiting until level 30 or 36 for their skill), I tried to design builds where the earliest of the 3 skills is available at or before char level 12, so players can get their build ideas started. I know playing with skills or even following the synergies isn't critical to getting to player level 30, but it's not that much fun either. One of the things I did that some folks might like or hate is that an AoE skill at char level 18 does about the same damage at level 1 as an AoE skill that you've been raising since char level 1 (i.e. that earlier skill is around level 9 at char level 18). Both skills will end up about the same damage end game though, but the skill from level 30 will gain damage much slower (so feel free to invest points in it last). I did this because I thought it would help people catch up if they've been holding off spending skills in the early levels. It does cause some imbalance (more damage from less mana cost from the char level 18 skill) in the early game (A1 and A2 Norm), but I figure those areas are played through so fast that early imbalances don't matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:49 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
God mode spams the NPC heal packet (at least the more advanced ones do). Potions have nothing to do with it.


God mode scripts for healing are largely irrelevant when it comes to fights without rejuvs though. AFAIK the god mode 3rd party programs don't work if rejuvs are actually disabled in the txt. But I could be wrong.

Knowing your character will heal itself instantly after a certain threshold makes it a lot easier since you can focus entirely on your positioning and never even keep an eye on your health. It's super braindead and everyone is going to go back to doing it. Doesn't really matter to me since I only play with 2 people but just throwing it out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:30 pm 
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Ensley03 wrote:
AFAIK the god mode 3rd party programs don't work if rejuvs are actually disabled in the txt. But I could be wrong.

Knowing your character will heal itself instantly after a certain threshold makes it a lot easier since you can focus entirely on your positioning and never even keep an eye on your health. It's super braindead and everyone is going to go back to doing it. Doesn't really matter to me since I only play with 2 people but just throwing it out there.


PureRage-DoD wrote:
God mode spams the NPC heal packet (at least the more advanced ones do).

What I mean is, when you take damage or drop below a threshold, those GMs send a data packet that tells the game you just clicked on Akara or another NPC who heals you. The server then sends a packet back to the client that refulls your HP and MP orb, thus it has nothing to do with potions. I looked into it a few years ago and it was more trouble than it's worth to try to break them as it takes like 1 minute to update the offsets using ollydbg to get it to work again.

I can change rejuvs so they work like 1.6 potions but heal 33% over 1 frame instead. I guess stopping hitty GMs working is a decent compromise.

The one reason I'm not a fan of purely HP based potions is things like energy sorcs or dex zons get really shafted compared to potions healing the same for everyone regardless of max hp, and HP buffs become more important than mitigation as more hp = more powerful pots.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:02 pm 

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Being a dex zon should be a trade off though, that's why they were always so OP and everyone played them before. I just don't want to see a game filled with bow zons again.

A tradeoff could be to make them a lesser flat number, plus a vit formula. Like 500 + vit*5.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:40 pm 
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I must say that I do like the 1.5 version of potions, but it cannot be done effectively without balancing the lifepools similarly to what Mrawskrad did at the same time.

Honestly, rejuvs have made essentially zero impact on whether people are able to pass the boss or not.

Did I really just miss BowZon Unleashed? I fail to recall this seemingly horrifying episode.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:44 pm 
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Ensley03 wrote:
Being a dex zon should be a trade off though, that's why they were always so OP and everyone played them before. I just don't want to see a game filled with bow zons again.

A tradeoff could be to make them a lesser flat number, plus a vit formula. Like 500 + vit*5.


Have you tried it yet?

Potions heal:
60 minor
110 light
160 med
240 greater
350 super
450 mega
550 ultra
over 6 seconds.

How much do you want them lowered by? Give me a number. If you are finding them too strong then tell us by how much.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:03 pm 

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kramuti wrote:
Did I really just miss BowZon Unleashed? I fail to recall this seemingly horrifying episode.


You don't remember when 50% of players were bowzons because full dex GA with strong heal pots was OP and they were soloing the entire game? Why bother with any vit if you can just make it up with dps and leech and use imba heal pots? And lowering the values just punishes tanks and makes it not fun to be melee, which is why a life% or vit multiplier formula would be the best. Make people actually have to invest some into defense or at least minimize the effectiveness of going pure str or dex on a char with zero regard for HP because pots (with rejuvs :cry: ) will carry.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:12 pm 
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You are going to have to provide your characters:

1: Class
2: Level
3: Stats
4: How strong/weak you are finding potions.

"Remember when" isn't helping anything because we are living in the present, not the past.

Melee should be reducing damage with defensive stats and leech, making potions worth more for them. Someone reducing damage by 75% gets 4x as much effective hp from a potion compared to someone reducing no damage.

If you don't provide actual numbers based on 1.7 (not 1.5-1.6) then your words are falling on deaf ears.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:43 am 

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ensley how about actually testing the patch before opening up about it. we had enough problems with untested patches since 1.6. i'm only saying this because i've actually tried 1.7 and i can tell you physical attack based characters felt lackluster. also worth noting is that 1.3 and 1.7 are drastically different so making any assumption that say a multizon is going to be op in both is just flat out wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Ensley's last comments were at least partially directed towards mine.
As good as pure dex bowzons could be, they were never rampant like other builds have been. Even in 1.3a, when melee was considered pretty rough, it was really no worse than it is now until you get to the end of hell. Even then, melee was able to solo most everything, if not everything.

And it is also quite funny that during that time, nobody played firebowzons...well a few...and they were really strong, yet almost nobody bothered because they were 'so underpowered'. It wasn't until later that people began to realize...very similar to hydra really. During the time where we gave it fireball projectile it was too strong, but very few ever bothered to make a hydra sorc...they were always quite good.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:19 pm 
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Same story with poisonzon years ago. Everyone claimed they were too weak until someone (Utter) actually made one and it became flavor of the month instantly. Funny how that works. People don't bother to try something out and complain about it being weak until someone actually tries it and proves the lazy people wrong, then everyone decides to jump on the bandwagon.

The problem is, if nobody bothers to actually try it while claiming it's weak at the same time, it gets buffed and becomes OP. I'm still waiting for the character level, class, stats and what the problem is with potions at that point. If it's just baseless moaning my ignore list may be about to grow, as that kind of feedback is a hinderance.

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 Post subject: Re: Reset Skills/stats
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:07 am 

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After slaying a few monsters here and there in 1.7 i can see how i would 1-3 point a certain skills pre30s for some easy kills, making me open to the idea of a reset token to be able to get your high level char just right without wasting a few skill points here and there. Enjoyed what i saw even only making it to level 12. Keep up the great work


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