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 Post subject: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm
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I have a 71 hammerdin who kind of sucks, I don't know if it's a gear issue or a skill build issue but what kind of stats am I trying to get on this guy? I have like +14 all skills, -50 enemy magic resist, ~8k dmg hammers with concentration and I just barely even see the HP bar moving on bosses (usually takes 2-3 hammers to deal like 1 pixel worth of dmg.)

Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated.

PS: I'm playing on LAN with 3-4 buddies and we're stuck at NM tobial, pretty much all of us are confused as to our gearing goals. Is there any resources that we can find because we've searched this forum and can't find much and the hubdb website is great but there isn't much there on strategy or gearing guides.)

edit: also, we're stuck on /players 8, is that part of the issue we're having?


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:34 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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The simple answer is don't make a hammerdin.

They were considered pretty powerful, then got nerfed in damage.

Then when considered too weak, they were given free pierce.

This made them too powerful, so the pierce was removed and their damage was never readjusted.

For a unit that has to be in melee range and can't lifesteal, they're overall just shitty. You'll at best be a healer/aura bot on bosses, at worse be useless. And then on top of that you're a mediocre trash clearer and a walking aura.

If you're hell bent on making one, adjust your shield to cap out sorbs on the boss element you're facing. Maintain max block. Afterwards stack as much pierce as you can get.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:38 pm 
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players 8 is a result of the D2Mod file having the same hp values at all levels.

One other thing about hammers...being at the bottom left of the enemy is key to getting the most bang for the buck. It can make a huge difference in damage output. Not sure if this is the case for you, but important nonetheless.

Tobial, and a few other bosses have a pretty finicky hitbox as well.

I haven't played a hammerdin in a long time, so I can't really comment much about damage values, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:57 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm
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Thanks for the replies, I spent several hours crafting blood shields to make three decent absorb shields (I haven't had a chance to test them out yet, but they are all around 30% absorb which seems pretty good.)

One question, pierce refers to -enemy magic resistance%, right? And it's worth going over 75/100% with this stat? Is there any formula to determine the ratio between +skills and -magic resistance for maximum damage? I could probably drop most of my +skills and stack a lot more -magic resistance but I'm not sure it's worth it, I'm in the process of acquiring said gear just to see though. Falling short of that, does anyone know how damage is calculated? I believe it's flat damage reductions (`damage reduced by x` and `magic damage reduced by x`) first, then reduced by the resistance % resulting in the amount of damage dealt. Then, the absorb amount is healed from that damage.

So, if I did 100 magic dmg to an enemy with `magic damage reduced by 10`, 50% magic resistance and 10% magic absorb, it would look like this, correct?

100 - 10 = 90
90 * .5 = 45
45 - (45 * 0.1) = 45 - (4.5) = 40.5 total damage dealt

If that's the case, does -magic resistance at say 200% double my paper doll dmg ignoring flat reductions and absorbs, or does it scale differently past 75% or 100%?

edit, ps: my friend is an amazon, does the `pierce` stat work similar to -enemy x resistance such that it is essentially -enemy physical resistance, or does it cause shots to pass through enemies based on the %? ie, a belt that gives 23% pierce either lets an arrow keep going after it hit 23% of the time?


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:06 pm 
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At the bottom of this page is listed what order defenses are taken.
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/ba ... nces.shtml

Pierce( negative X res) can make monsters go to negative values....essentially the turn around point between pierce and more damage is at 0 resistance.

If a monster has above 0, then (all things being equal) pierce gives better damage. Below zero, add more damage instead.

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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:05 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Physical pierce say on razortail or crafted belts do not provide a pierce to physical resistances. This is the chance your projectiles have to hit the target and continue on. If your amazon is a physical bowa, he wants 100%. As of 1.6b it's in a very shitty state in how you're forced to get it. Which is passive(~30% maxed), belt(25% crafted), quiver(25%, 33% on the 95), and an amulet(optic amulet, 25%). The amulet is the lynch pin in securing the 100%, which is pivotal, but it's also a very subpar amulet. Anyways, the reason you stack this is because GA pierces and then turns around, and the closer he is the more lifetime it'll have and it can really rack up consecutive hits.

On to you. Surs/facets give you pierce in armor/shield/helm, diamonds in weapons. Facets cannot be used til 85, surs you can use at 70, but it's unlikely you'll even have 1 much less multiple.(There is no backwards recipe, but with an editor you can swap your runes backwards, in an attempt to remain semi-legit and keep yourself relevant. Without stacking pierce you're not going to be doing well.)

Helm I'd probably go holy craft(for defiance aura) with diamonds in it. If I wanted more damage, I'd go caster helm(+1 to all skills). Generally speaking though, stacking defense is probably your best bet to living.

Chest, if guardian angel has +2 skills, it's your best bet. Otherwise, if you have any other +2 skills with alright sockets/stats, use it. Otherwise, an elemental crafted chest gives you some pierce.

Most importantly, try to have +4 combat skill circlet/amulet/shields. Also it's imperative you have max block.

Lastly, your damage dealing breakpoints are 75% FCR and 125% FCR, these aren't hard to hit but I'd be aware of them.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:23 pm 
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purebe wrote:
So, if I did 100 magic dmg to an enemy with `magic damage reduced by 10`, 50% magic resistance and 10% magic absorb, it would look like this, correct?

100 - 10 = 90
90 * .5 = 45
45 - (45 * 0.1) = 45 - (4.5) = 40.5 total damage dealt

If that's the case, does -magic resistance at say 200% double my paper doll dmg ignoring flat reductions and absorbs, or does it scale differently past 75% or 100%?
Since monsters do not appear to get the healing benefit of absorbs, your math is correct. If you had -199%EnemyMagicRes or more, then yes it would exactly double your skill's listed damage. Monsters appear to be capped at -100%Res, so if you ran into a non-immune monster then your -%EnemyRes gear would have full effect, and at 199% you would always bring them down to -100%.

The only diminishing returns is in how much you actually notice the benefit. For example (with 0%Resistance monster), if monsters take 100 hits to kill, then with -200%EnemyRes you'll kill them in 50 (probably really worthwhile), but if monsters took 3 hits to kill, then with -200%EnemyRes you'll kill them in 2 (probably not worthwhile). After around -80%EnemyRes (monsters are either completely immune to you, or your damage is at least 4/5 its total), you'll probably start noticing the benefits less and less, but -100% could still be worthwhile.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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There are no complete immunities anymore, the only real diminishing returns on pierce is if you have more than 100+their resist, but generally speaking you want to stack as much as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm
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Thanks for the detailed responses again! Just to clarify something about pierce then, if an amazon gets 100% pierce and spams guided arrow then each projectile will keep piercing repeatedly on the same monster, stacking the damage up to insane numbers (or maybe to a capped number of pierces, and if so, what is that cap?)? Because I can see why 100% pierce would be absolutely mandatory then.

Also, this means just pierce is basically useless for say, my zealer?


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
I believe GA works on a timer, so if it lasts 5-6 seconds, it'll keep piercing until it runs out of time. There is also a flight time where after it pierces it goes for a while before turning around.

Just from eyesight playing a bowa, I seem to get more consistent uptime on arrows the closer I am.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:33 pm 
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Hammer + teleport for big mobs... smite for single target....

ez pz... I don't knwo about this mod but on the last isntance pierce was given back to hammerdins.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:12 pm 
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Pierce, referring to the piercing of arrows through multiple targets is indeed useless for nonranged characters.
100% is effective max

Pierce, referring to -enemy resistances, is very useful to melee, depending on what you are actually making.
It is good to get monsters to 0 resistance. After that, + (fire/cold/etc) or equivalent boost in skill damage is better.

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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm
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So my amazon friend has like 88% pierce now, and he was spamming guided arrow but it just goes through monsters over and over. It doesn't hit them, or deal damage most of the time.

We tried to PvP to see what was happening and it just goes right through me over and over, only occasionally triggering a block animation and even more rarely hitting me. He has like 10k attack rating. Anyone know what's going on with it?


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Unless it was changed GA doesn't use AR.

No idea why it would function like that, other than lag/desync?


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:12 am
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GA does use AR according to mraw, so i think that when the first attack misses the second and third etc will also, kindve like zeal and fury
Mraw would know more


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:08 am 
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ao2005 wrote:
GA does use AR according to mraw, so i think that when the first attack misses the second and third etc will also, kindve like zeal and fury
Mraw would know more


Yup, this should be correct :)


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:26 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm
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Is there a way to see how much his GA AR is? It doesn't list it


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:03 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Its probably equivalent to your normal attack ar.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:48 am 
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Yes, it would be your regular attack rating (i.e. switch to "Attack" skill and look)

When I was starting my modding experiments a few years ago, I read a comment on PhrozenKeep that said no bow-skills benefit from ARating given by that skill (the game's programmers forgot to check those columns or something). I ran a test where I gave (probably MagicArrow) +0%ARating vs +10,000% ARating, and sure enough I was definitely not hitting stuff more often. It's surprisingly hard to notice the loss because you still get your regular ARating, and a large chunk of the to-hit formula is based on your level relative to the monster's level. Jav skills are fine, it really just seems to be the bow-skill tree of the Amazon that's lacking.


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 Post subject: Re: How to gear up a hammerdin paladin for early NM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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For javs there is a gigantic difference in AR. I remember when poison zons had to 'hit' to reset, it was extremely frustrating, but an uber amethyst covered it.

As for bow skills, not sure, I never notice them not hitting. GA anyways, multi I believe runs off AR, but it could just be a placebo effect.


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