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 Post subject: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:09 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:58 pm
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Hi.

Haven't been around for a while, I decided to patch to the latest version on the realm. Started a sin, checked some skills and: http://imgur.com/PRJVDQX

Is this some patching issue on my part or do you all have that default "an evil force" line there? If yes/not, what should be there if anything?


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:34 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:58 pm
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I think I understand now that I reached the level to use the skill(I don't play much, once in a while for half an hour maybe). Last time I played, the skill itself used to work in a unique way. I'm happy to see you guys took out something unique and made a Multishot/Teeth clone for no particular reason. You could have nerfed the damage if it was "too broken in a mod that's played by 20 people on average".


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:53 am 
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That was my change. Blame me and not anyone else for that massive nerf. I would gladly do it again just to get another taste of yours and many others salty assassin tears.

The version on blade fury purerage made was equally as boring as it is now. Spam it carelessly and it auto targets everything. I have a change for it that makes it work like the orginal blade fury but without the ability to use it to exploit immunity but I retired from hu modding. No time

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:17 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:58 pm
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I'm not blaming you for the massive nerf. I just don't like how you took out something that worked differently and made a copy of another skill to replace it.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:10 am 
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the_apologizer wrote:
I'm not blaming you for the massive nerf. I just don't like how you took out something that worked differently and made a copy of another skill to replace it.


I think multi shot auto targeting missiles that hit the entire screen is a bad design (IMO) regardless of what the numbers on it are. Sure its different because it doesn't fit HU, it reeks of Median XL design where every skill multihits hundreds of enemies per use (slight exaggeration but not far from the truth).

I hope 1.7 sticks to HUs roots.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:38 am 
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? not sure who made it hit everything on screen. It fired at 2 nearby enemies 5 times/cast originally. If there was 2 or less enemies on screen then yeh, it hit everything on screen multiple times. It worked fine when it was first changed, it only got insane when the synergies got buffed to silly values. It's a single blade per cast dealing 1/3 damage in 1.7.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:13 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:58 pm
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Even though we strayed from the original topic a bit, I'm gonna mention that I can't really even have salty assassin tears, since I only played a bladesin after the synergy got nerfed, but the skill still worked in the way PureRage said. It wasn't that insane then and the mod was in the state where we had all the bosses put in random places on small maps. It was great for trash, that is true.

One last question: As I mentioned, you could have just nerfed the damage(the synergies, for example). Why did you decide to take out the skill instead? The only reason is the silliness of it you mentioned? You don't like auto-targeting?


Last edited by the_apologizer on Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:01 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
... It's a single blade per cast dealing 1/3 damage in 1.7.


RIP Blade Fury 2013-2014; 2016-2016


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:50 am 
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Wasn't aware you were part of the testing group. Would it be RIP if all other ranged/melee skills did 1/10 damage?

You have no frame of reference to make a judgement. The point is it's back to 1 blade.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:07 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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if it does 3x more damage than any other ability, it would still be useless as a single target skill. Unless you added completely new skills and revamped the tree, nobody will play a bladesin since it has no aoe unless it does an absurd amount of damage.

Just my 2c


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:18 am 
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Who said a bfury assassin has no AoE? You are making assumptions based on nothing.
A skill that deals 3x regular damage wouldn't be used as a single target skill? What? (It doesn't deal 3x as much damage as other skills but that's not the point). The point I was making is you are basing your assumptions on 1.6.

Blade fury is synergised by wake of fire and shadow master. The other blade skills have nothing to do with blade fury, they are used for other builds.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:24 am 

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Well like I said, unless you totally revamped the trees. And I meant 3x more in general, not 3x weapon damage, hahah. Sounds interesting at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:54 am 
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Pretty much all synergies are changed so you have multiple elements and some form of AoE/single target skill to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:03 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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So when they have stone skin fire enchanted unbreakable immunities, you get to be useless twice instead of just once ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:18 pm 
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Stoneskin/X Enchanted/mag resistant etc have been reduced from 50-75% res to 33% across the board. There are also numerous ways to reduce resistance via oskill or ctc. Sin also has venom/phoenix strike/psy hammer, open wounds (OW is decent in 1.7). 1 build = 60 points. you have another ~55 points to choose other elements.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:42 pm 
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Regarding BladeFury in v1.7:
  • It's using 1/3 weapon damage, and then adding appropriate physical damage so that it's balanced with arrows (i.e. it's doing standard AoE damage, not 1/3). The benefit of this is that you can use a low-damage weapon with useful mods (for example I made some unique throwing daggers with dramatically above average EDvsUndead/Demons, which is very strong when used with BFury (vs Undead/Demons anyways), and simply average otherwise.
  • BFury has been made to pierce targets (provided you've got some +%Pierce gear, AND you are using a weapon that could pierce (i.e. a bow or thrown). It sucks that you can't get the pierce benefit with a claw, but D2 seems hardcoded for this. If anyone knows of a solution then please let me know.
  • There is a synergy where points into BFury give BoSpeed a 2%Pierce bonus (so 40%Pierce with maxed BFury). If you want to use that bonus with a Bow or something, then you've paid for it so have a blast.
  • Just recently I adjusted the BFury damage description in the charscreen to be more accurate. It's not flawless, but it's bugged in the same way as every other ranged attack skill in D2 (they do not accurately include +%ExtraDamage (i.e. FireMastery)). By lucky coincidence, that error in v1.7 should not amount to more than 10% in the displayed damage (i.e. if it shows 1.1k, it might be doing 1k, which is pretty dang close).

Regarding v1.7 in general:
I mentioned around February that I don't mind sharing the design document describing v1.7, but I was expecting to share it around May-July, when it was a bit more final. Nonetheless, if anyone wants to take a look at the link, just PM me and let me know. If you spot errors in the design, it would be great to learn about them. Some things require play-testing, but errors in the design do not (and they affect more). You could simply double-check my math or confirm a formula's accuracy.

For example Angel noticed that the design never mentioned or seemed to account for the CastRate uniqueness of Lightning and ChainLightning, and told me about it. I raised the issue with PureRage and the Testers, and a surprisingly trivial solution was found and has been implemented. The only change required was to give those skills the same casting animation token as every other skill. I don't expect the testers to discover anything wrong with this change.

As has been mentioned, the skill trees are significantly different (same skills, just different synergies and numbers, e.g. AoE skills generally do 1/5th monsterHP as damage while single-target skills aim for 3/5th, synergies are based not on element but on targeting (single with AoE), effect (DPS (flames/poison) with Chill/Stun (so things get burned longer)), defense/offense (e.g. BoneWall is part of a Teeth or BSpear build), etc. I'd like the builds to have fairly different play-styles. I've been aiming for around three 60-point builds per tab, or about 10 builds per character. In general things appear balanced. I'm sure some builds will turn out too strong or too weak, but hopefully not more than about 20% in either direction. BFury was balanced as an AoE skill (so 1/5th monHP damage) not simply because it can pierce, but mostly because of it's fairly unique ability to leach, apply CBlow, etc. It's definitely worth a test-run though, to see if maybe 8/25 monHP damage (like v1.7 Lightning) would be better (all AoE spells are not the same).

I've similarly modified all monsters. In general their base resistances are 0% (Norm), 33%(NM), and 50%(Hell). On top of that base, I might have added resistances across the 6 elements such that they add up to 49 (e.g. 8%ResAll, 25%ResFire+Cold, 49%ResPhys, etc). I used a formula to make sure no monsters in Hell have more than 99% resistance to an element, with a few exceptions. PureRage has successfully modified the hard-coded resistance buff provided to named monsters with "FireEnchanted", "ColdEnchanted", etc so that rather than +75%Res to that element, it's +33%. This means that in Hell, a 99%ResFire monster spawning with FireEnchanted will be nearly unbreakably immune, but this doesn't occur often, and it's Hell difficulty.

Broad-sweeping changes like monster resistances and skill synergies might sound like they'd take ages, but I started in 2012 and took long breaks.

The design document is not small, and written mostly to remind myself of how I'd like things to end up (some parts will be hard to understand since my short-hand comments weren't meant for others). If you are willing to read it, I won't be offended by your first few comments demonstrating a lack of understanding (I've already shared it with several people, so I'm getting used to the initial reactions). Read it, think about stuff, then feel free to point out any flaw you see.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Brevan wrote:
It sucks that you can't get the pierce benefit with a claw, but D2 seems hardcoded for this. If anyone knows of a solution then please let me know.


I've dabbled into this as well with little success but there's always a way to cheese it. It appears that only things labeled as missiles ("miss") can add any amount of pierce at all.

The only way around it is to try and change Hand to Hand from mele to miss in itemtypes.txt and then change all of the melee skills usable with claws. You can make every skill use Charged Strike as a base, set the missiles to 1, set the velocity to 40, and remove the spell effect. This gives you a melee-ranged missile attack with no AOE. Then add submissiles for what you want the skill to really do.

The main downsides to this are 1) You cannot use a "normal" default attack with a claw, 2) it adds a very very small delay between when you swing and when it hits due to it being a missile and having a "travel time" to its target, and 3) you can't use oskill attacks like Zeal with claws since it's a melee attack and you're using a missile weapon.

It's a daring project but I believe it is doable.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:58 pm
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Okay, I'm not sure what the fuck's going on at the moment which kinda applies to most situations in my life, but as I see, my harmless question started an in-depth discussion about the future of Hell Unleashed. Great. So, the skill will still be a worse Multishot later on?


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:18 pm 
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No it will be a single target ranged skill. Your question was answered on page 1, Mraw didn't like autotarget so it was changed to MS clone.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:24 pm 
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Ensley03 wrote:
I've dabbled into this as well with little success but there's always a way to cheese it. It appears that only things labeled as missiles ("miss") can add any amount of pierce at all.
Thank you for the idea. I did some testing with itemtype "combo" rather than miss, since combo weapons are "mele, thro" types and I know they allowed piercing BFury. I've only tested a bit with that, but it seems to work very well. I just changed the h2h itemtype from "mele, assn" to "comb, assn". Consider experimenting with that setup, it seems very promising.

Don't give the "throwable" itemstat onto the claw though, since when I tried that the throw action made my char disappear and the debuglog file implied that the game was thrown into a possibly infinite loop of failing to find the animation (10 seconds of game created around a thousand lines of debug messages (1MB debug file)).

That aside, I also re-ran my initial tests with BFury and Pierce with non-combo claws equipped, and the BFury seemed to be piercing fine. Either my first tests failed (False Negative), or the recent change of BFury from a channeling skill (like Inferno/ArcticBlast) to regular skill (click&hold like FireBolt, but without a fancy "channeling" animation) fixed the issue. Either way I'm glad BFury is behaving more like I wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:29 pm 
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Yeh the swap from channeled > cast should fix pierce.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:41 pm 

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I thought combo had to have 2 separate statistics? (i.e. throw damage [missile] and melee damage.) If a claw just says it does 10-20 damage, that's just a melee swing with no combo alternative, isn't it?

When I looked into this a couple months ago I was digging up forum relics from 2003 saying it can't be done unless you go around your ass to get to your elbow by making it a missile and it can still be faulty.

Are you trying to make pierce be a staffmod or a magical property?

Another thing about having a missile melee weapon is if there are any non-bow items with oskill Magic Arrow, you'll be able to fire Magic Arrows with your claw since that skill does not require a quiver and you're using a missile weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:04 pm 
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Phrozen keep doesn't always have the answer, you often need to find the answer yourself via trial and error. I was told you can't add more equip to a merc without hardcode, then discovered you can by simply adjusting itemtypes.
http://d2mods.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=56363

If you can't find the answer, just find out what methods didn't work for other people so you don't repeat tests, and go from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Blade Fury skill description bug
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:31 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:55 pm
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Blade fury is synergised by wake of fire and shadow master. The other blade skills have nothing to do with blade fury, they are used for other builds.


i feel so confused


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