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 Post subject: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:22 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Every ability gets a nerf!

I'd like an explanation behind the nerfs, specifically your thought process, here is mine:

Strafe - Nobody used it, nerf it and maybe somebody will?

Multishot - Let's make it so nothing changes endgame with the skill, but when those damn bowas are leveling up they shoot 3 arrows.

Crit passive - Once again nothing changes end game, but now you won't be critting so frequently in the early game.

Dodge/avoid - This was never a problem skill. Now they might as well not exist. They have no stat consolidation and I imagine even maxing them would provide pitiful values. You could of at least turned them into 1 skill, or given them secondary stats.

Perfection - Early bowas struggle with res, now they still struggle. Nothing changes end game.

Pierce+GA - You've done nothing to endgame bowas once again, you've just made early game/midgame bowas struggle with getting enough pierce.

Decoy - Decoy was never all that strong, it was strong because you could double drip with BO/oak, but that's been removed. Now it's just been hit hard again, and in general even double dipping it was never strong on bowas who tend to run >50% stats into dex.

BUT YOU BUFFED MAGIC ARROW!

Shame it scales off physical damage and converts, so we have to focus on physical damage, and we're given no passive options for magic pierce to help it be a decent ability. It's synergies are also dumpster, inner/valk are both worthless, especially since you can get amp on just about anything now.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:17 am 
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Yup, my bowzon is kinda limited now, was way more decent before...


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:35 am 
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Dodge and Avoid were used to tank Hell Diablo a patch ago with 75% of both. Was really strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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If by tank you mean sit there with a healer healing while something ranged killed him, sure.

Healing was the problem, not the skill, since you can't do anything sitting in dodgelock.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:17 pm 
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Angel wrote:
If by tank you mean sit there with a healer healing while something ranged killed him, sure.

Healing was the problem, not the skill, since you can't do anything sitting in dodgelock.



No Pious legit tanked Hell Diablo by himself no healer.

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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:02 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 am
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after the punishing nerfs to avoid/dodge they should have been combined into 1 skill to compensate.

if you think of avoid one way, at 75% it literally quadrupled the effective hp of the zon. that doesn't include max block either, which would again quadruple effective hp vs blockable hits. on hc there was no equal tank to the zon. i used it in 1.3 for los tanking, in 1.4 to tank all the nasty bosses that version, and 1.5 for doing hell.

i suppose the problem here is that a skill goes from being OP to getting nerfed into oblivion. the middle ground is not always so easy to find when balancing.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:21 am 
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Pious wrote:
after the punishing nerfs to avoid/dodge they should have been combined into 1 skill to compensate.

if you think of avoid one way, at 75% it literally quadrupled the effective hp of the zon. that doesn't include max block either, which would again quadruple effective hp vs blockable hits. on hc there was no equal tank to the zon. i used it in 1.3 for los tanking, in 1.4 to tank all the nasty bosses that version, and 1.5 for doing hell.

i suppose the problem here is that a skill goes from being OP to getting nerfed into oblivion. the middle ground is not always so easy to find when balancing.


Its either reduce it to a very low amount or reduce amazon base HP IMO. I would say just remove it completely and give the amazon 2 new passives skills.

It's just something that is either "useless" or OP unless you reduce amazon base HP but then you are requiring all amazons to get dodge or suffer less EHP. Not to mention "1 shot" QQing due to low max HP.

Its basically in the same boat as claw block. If you want high levels of clawblock and dodge then assasins and amazons need lower base HP than other classes or they will always be better at tanking.

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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:28 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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While numerically you do increase EHP by the amount that dodge provides, it doesn't practically work that way. You can't attack while dodging, you can't lifesteal while not attacking.

It's a god send on certain fights and bad on others, unlike a skill like clawblock which is never bad.

It's not that I care too much about the dodge nerf, it's everything being nerfed simultaneously. Literally everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:49 am 
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Yeah I agree with you about everything else. (play 1.5c its better)

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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:12 am
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no love for my zon???


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:30 pm 
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You kited hard more so than face tanking your zon was very good but played better.

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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Don't really kite bone prisons.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 am
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avoid/clawblock only became serious problems once the hp system was overhauled. before that barb/druid had a solid position due to their hp orb advantage and high 2 hand damage. as a result, the power scale rolled over to the sin/zon/pally. these issues are smoothed over fairly well in 1.7.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:27 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Can someone give me the basic rundown of 1.7? I keep reading about it, don't see anything specific.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:52 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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So after a lot more play-testing of the bowazon class I've decided to give a big more feedback. With the slim possibility of 1.6c maybe it'll be heard and adjusted, who knows.

Pierce is the issue. You can get 25% on optic amulet, 25% on a quiver, and 25% on a belt. Passive gets about 25% being maxed. You -can- get 100%, but it's so poorly optimized.

Optic amulet is the biggest problem, but the belt choices are also weak. You're sacrificing a lot wearing optic and not wearing nos coil. But you have to, or your damage is just non existent. The difference between 80% pierce and 100% pierce is massive. You go from doing not even all that noticeable damage @ 100% pierce to virtually barely moving the health bars of bosses @ 80%. This is all, of course, if you can even free attack which you generally won't be able to.

Bowa damage is pretty bad. It looks fantastic when you're doing old content, but even with a maxed amp necro and ridiculous gear @ progression level it can't compete with casters or melee. We don't take advantage of CB very well and we can't hit out most important stats easily.

Bowas require absurd amounts of ias for their attack breakpoints, that aside, their pierce is only obtainable using terrible gear choices.

Several easy solutions could be put in. Pierce passive gives 1.5% per hard point, 1% per soft point, yielding 50% @ 20 points + 1% per +skill gear. This lets you achieve max pierce using a quiver(which you'll always use), and a belt(which isn't ideal, but it's doable). Having to wear optic in addition to all of this is too much strain, especially since we generally need ias/ds/res on our amulets.(in no small part to the res passive/crit nerf).

Bows could be given 25% pierce, xbows have them but xbows are not an option due to FPA breakpoints(11 vs 7).

Nos coil could be given 25% pierce, this is just gravy, but I think the belt bowas most want to wear should probably have their most important stat.

Of course just giving certain set/unique choices pierce instead of it just being optic would be applicable too.

============================================================

tl;dr - bowas biggest problem is pierce. do one of the following:
bows get 25% pierce
passive readjusted to 1.5% per hard, 1% per soft(20 = 50% pierce, each skill is 1% more over that)
nos coil gets pierce
amulet/ring options get pierce


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:41 am 
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It was around 60~ or so until 1.6b

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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:28 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
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i think bowazon is OP, in late her dmg ~ 50-70k/hit... no catser is better.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:16 am 
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nguyentai44 wrote:
i think bowazon is OP, in late her dmg ~ 50-70k/hit... no catser is better.


Can you show me your gear that you get 70k hits with?

I hope its GA for sure.

Whats multishot dmg?


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:37 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
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snakzz wrote:
nguyentai44 wrote:
i think bowazon is OP, in late her dmg ~ 50-70k/hit... no catser is better.


Can you show me your gear that you get 70k hits with?

I hope its GA for sure.

Whats multishot dmg?


I dont know details, because my friend played, but this is real, level 91 with 4 hell-charm (4 all skill), RW Desire, i think this Bowazon is a glass cannon, yeah he use guide arrow, may be many Rainbow.. You know, with ~50-70k dmg/hit... so all caster is suck, and the only neccessary thing is someone do the "tank", we killed all Boss very fast, we went to A4 hell and server had problem... And before 1.6b Valkyrie is more powerful, with A2 Merc, she can solo many case. Now we play on 1.6b, no one play Bowazon beacause she is OP (still OP after nefted)
Sorry for my english.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:24 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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5 base vita, enough str for ogre rends+spire didn't yield 70k with more powerful crafts from 1.5. Fuck off with your lies.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:32 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
Posts: 58
Angel wrote:
5 base vita, enough str for ogre rends+spire didn't yield 70k with more powerful crafts from 1.5. Fuck off with your lies.


dex enough for item, not glass cannon, i asked him. we play on 1.6a, and his dam is >50k, with A2 merc aura ==> more than 70k


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:35 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
And that's simply false.

In 1.5, when bowas weren't nerfed, you couldn't even hit that damage. Even with 1k+ ED bow crafts, which make your runeword look like a joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:51 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
Posts: 58
oh you still dont beleave me, this is real, not craft bow, just RW and we played 1.6a


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:57 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
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i dont play 1.5 so i dont know what its craft adv, but in 1.6a which craft can make 5 all skills and 600% ED ?
RW fortitude armour and desire RW as weapon (Eth grand matro bow with 3 skill and 10% ED


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:42 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
Eth bows don't exist.

Using a fort armor means you're missing 200 max damage, meaning you're lying about your damage flat out.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:46 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
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oh you could not do it not mean others are too, sorry iam wrong a bow with 10% ED and 3 skill. This not joke bro, he did it and he abadoned it, bowazon is too OP so he play Pal for more hard


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
Posts: 58
ok, i have talked with him, below is his item :
Fort RW
Desire RW on 10% ED 3 skill bow
Rare helm with 2 skill and minor ED (>50%) ==> a bow with max dam 1k1
Ring x2 Dangoon
Craft glove tab skill with IAS and ED
Boot War Traveler
Highlord amu 2 skills
Nosferatu's Coil belt
...
Stat
Str/Dex enough for item
All Vit
....

Some infomation,,,,


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
So not doing 70k GA.

Because with full dex, not shitlord runewords, and literal best in slot in every slot it never hit for 70k in 1.5. They're nerfed in 1.6


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:55 pm
Posts: 28
A bow with base damage is 1000, so with Fanaticism and Might, can it?


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
Posts: 58
i said >70k with A2 Merc aura, but without it she still does ~50k, not full dex, and 1.6a sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:26 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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nguyentai44 wrote:
i think bowazon is OP, in late her dmg ~ 50-70k/hit... no catser is better.


You certainly didn't mention might aura. And you certainly aren't getting 50k.


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
Posts: 58
oh view again my older post, if full dex she could do it but low hp
dont blame me, Bowazon still Op this time


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 Post subject: Re: Did oprah nerf bowas?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:45 pm
Posts: 58
so if someone say that bowazon is bad, terrible... etc.. he is a noob, 100% !
And this bowazon still not beat Baal, Shadow... stuck at a5 and server reset.


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