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 Post subject: Impale
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:32 pm 
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May as well post this here. Been talking with Baerk about going the beserk route with impale with the def reduce 5% per hard point thing and also increasing the attack speed. At 17-18 FPA it's a cool attack but slow as hell. Anyone have anything to say on it?

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:34 pm 
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+1
definitely needs this

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:07 pm 
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LockDown wrote:
May as well post this here. Been talking with Baerk about going the beserk route with impale with the def reduce 5% per hard point thing and also increasing the attack speed. At 17-18 FPA it's a cool attack but slow as hell. Anyone have anything to say on it?


I think that the main idea of the whole skill is that the amazon really charge an ubber attack that deals shittons of dmg, with the drawback of having to attack really slow and dont leech and eat all attacks from enemies while it unleash the attack.

Based on this, it should be improved, perhaps the skill should go: Uniterruptable (like concentrate), def equal to zero (like berzerker), ignore target defense, and the highest ed on the game ( much higher than charge, sacrifice, leap attack etc).

and maybe a little slower if it isnt already so slow, unable to knockback and stuff like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:06 am 
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It's the slowest attack in the game by 10 fpa with max ias. It's horrible and unusable in anything but 1v1 situations and that's iffy with the defense drops. 1v1 regular monsters ya 1v1 a boss with 0 def no thank you. 17-18 FPA is the BEST possible attack speed you are going to get with it. It deals a lot of Magic Damage 88k or something was what I hit at lvl 88 I can't remember 93 which is where I quit because of how gimped melee zons are in anywhere beyond act 4 Hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:02 am 
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I forgot I had changed impale to act like zerk. Yeh give it the reduced def penalty. I'd leave the speed personally but maybe dropping it to a minimum of 12 FPA would be ok too.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:25 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I forgot I had changed impale to act like zerk. Yeh give it the reduced def penalty. I'd leave the speed personally but maybe dropping it to a minimum of 12 FPA would be ok too.


Even 12 FPA would be good. It maxes at 17 currently with the huge ED I don't want it to be too fast but faster than what it currently is.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:18 pm 
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my idea was just based on the original idea of the skill itself, i personally believe it should be this way, the skill is not ment to tank, its dumb to use it vs a boss if you dont attack from the back and with some juvs... the fun factor of it that its super risky and got some serious drawbacks for a humongous damage that should perhaps remove around 3-5% of boss entire bulb if hits. its ofc ment to be not safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Berserk does the same thing while lending its magic damage to other skills from a synergy. Impale just adds flat ED to other skills and Melee zons have a big enough problem with survivability as is. They don't get the 2 life buffs or the MDR PDR barbs get until lvl 95.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Unfortunately I have very little leeway with how I can edit the speed of impale. It can either have its current horrendously slow breakpoint set with final breakpoint at 17 frames or it can have normal attack speed breakpoints (and don't even bother asking about something in between the current slow animation and normal attack because I know of no special attack sequences that are in between speed wise).

Also it should be noted zons have perfection which grants uninterruptable attack, but apparently its not working for impale it seems (and even though Zeal is "uninterruptable" it actually isn't server side). I can easily cut impale's vulnerability duration down to 1 frame though when impale is maxed though.

Should impale's breakpoints be changed to that of normal attack's? And if you guys insist on a speed in between normal attack and impale's current speed you better give me a special attack sequence number that will actually generate the desired attack speed or else your suggestion will simply be ignored for being idiotic.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Agreeing with Wolf here, I'd like to see Impale like a "bagillion% ed dmg skill per lvl" , with an attack speed that makes it almost unusable vs bosses without the proper team, rather than a berserk clone for amazon.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:30 pm 
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could change SQ to A1 then in aurastat2 put attackrate and for aurastatcalc2 put -60. it really slows it down and you would need 60 ias just to get to normal attack speed dunno how it would affect the break points tho worth some testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Skill IAS and gear IAS don't act the same. It would actually take the likes of fanata IAS to equally offset it. If you were to actually try offset that -60 IAS with gear IAS it would take a bare mininum of 120% gear IAS if not a whole lot more in order to get back up to the same speed


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:41 pm 
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was just testin it with 100 ias on a weapon and yes it was still slower that a regular attack but was still alot better then the current setup with 100 ias. maybe have some other people test it out and give input. only takes a min to do the edit or undo it. ive spent the past hour testing different numbers before i even posted this suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Slower than normal attack... meh... it's really just a normal attack with an anti-fanaticism attatched... The final breakpoint is still ultimately the same as that as normal attack. I already figured out a possibility where a player could have an 11 frame impale even with that -60 IAS using a ghost spear (using a jeweled death craft zodded for indestructibility). The same mod/aura set up would result with 12 frame impale with the war pike.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:24 pm 
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Well lockdown was lookin for around 12fpa so thats what i was aiming for. ne was just a suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:51 pm 
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If it wasn't for the fact that the one source of burst of speed for non assassins is going to be erased next patch due to void being changed to a necro wand RW it would actually be very possible to hit a 9 frame attack solo despite that -60 IAS penalty being attached to impale.

In any case if a paladin with a lvl 34+ fanata shows up a ghost spear could hit final breakpoint of 9 frames with 186% IAS on gear (doesn't necessarily have to be on weapon due to it not being SS/WW meaning a bunch of IAS jewels in armor could help hit it). In case of war pike it would have 10 frame attack with lvl 34 fanata present and 186% gear IAS. Should a player manage to get 330% IAS onto their gear with a lvl 34 fanata present even the war pike would hit final breakpoint.

As I said before... it's really just a normal attack with anti-fanata attached. The final breakpoint will be 9 frames whether you like it or not. Due to this not being wereform or whirlwind off weapon IAS will count. Considering that there's over 210% IAS possible on armor if you consider the possibility of jeweling... all those possibilities in the last paragraph I mentioned are very much possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:01 pm 
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If the Zon isn't using Dev end game they have no health and lack a ton of MDR. They wouldn't last 5 seconds anywhere meaningful without Dev.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:05 pm 
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What exactly is Dev then? Not familiar with the short hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:12 pm 
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devastator lvl 95 ama pike
+5 to Amazon Skill Levels
+500% Enhanced Damage
+60% Increased Attack Speed
+40% Faster Run/Walk Ignore Target Defense
+1 to Natural Resistance (OSKILL)
+1 to Iron Skin (OSKILL)
+1 to Increased Stamina(OSKILL)
All Resistances +50%
Socketed (3)
Level 6 Fanaticism Aura when Equipped

and if some one wanted to go all ias jewel they would be lucky to get it off once before they get mobbed and then dead

also a condition formula could be used so that after a certain skill lvl it would have more negative ias to prevent it from getting past the 12fpa area but this could end up gimping it before endgame

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Actually that Matriarch pike has a negative base speed so the IAS needs are even lower...

If a lvl 34 fanata was being supplied by a paladin the zon would just have to get 2 uber ameths into the weapon to bring the weapon's IAS up to 120% and 37% IAS somewhere on the armor for final breakpoint (which would mean not even any need for IAS jeweling save for weapon potencially.)

In the case of a lvl 10 fanata from something like Faith. It would take 223% IAS between weapon and armor/charms (meaning a bare minimum of 73% IAS on the armor which means one would not have to completely jewel out for IAS).

It should be kept in mind though that the jewels might have mods such as resist all along with the IAS.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:56 pm 
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I wouldn't even be upset if the IAS wasn't touched on the skill I'd just like to see it get the defense bonus like Berserk did.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:07 pm 
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I've just been spelling out potential implications of a given change... Rather often a change gets proposed and the proposers of that change often have little clue of the full balance implications of that change. I wouldn't of been surprised if when Dew proposed his speed thing he had no clue his slowed normal attack impale could actually be just as fast as final breakpoint normal attack.

As for concerning the defense thing. It's currently set to have the defense penalty's duration decrease with hard points at 125 - (5*hard level). I could just simply change the 125 to 101 so that when impale is fully maxed with skill points there is only 1 frame of vulnerability.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:18 pm 
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actually this was considered i just haven't been able to work a formula to prevent this. too much of a pain in the ass
edited

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:30 pm 
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You realize you are asking for a two dimensional table? Skill based IAS (de)buffs never suffer diminishing returns while gear IAS does. If you do give impale the the status quo of a normal attack with a skill based slow penalty then people will undoubtedly use fanata to knock a substancial chunk of that penalty away since they'll be looking for all the IAS that's managable to make the attack speed tolerable.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Worked out a couple of tables that aren't two dimensional. The reality of the matter is with exception to WW and wereform all attack speeds are calculated by the game engine in terms of effective IAS (EIAS). First a table that shows what becomes of gear IAS after the diminishing returns formula converts it to EIAS.

Code:
IAS   EIAS
0   0
20   17
40   30
60   40
80   48
100   54
120   60
140   64
160   68
180   72
200   75
220   77
240   80
260   82
280   84
300   85
320   87
340   88
360   90
380   91
400   92


This second table shows how many frames a zon's normal attack would take at a given amount of EIAS. Starting at the -27 EIAS/21 frames point is the mininum amount of EIAS needed to that many frames for that attack speed.

Code:
total EIAS   frames for zon norm attack
-85   106
-80   80
-75   64
-70   53
-65   45
-60   40
-55   35
-50   32
-45   29
-40   26
-35   24
-30   22
-27   21
-23   20
-19   19
-15   18
-11   17
-5   16
1   15
7   14
15   13
24   12
34   11
46   10
61   9


As for how to calculate how much EIAS the zon will have...

1) Start with 0
2) Add IAS amounts from skill (de)buffs (eg fanata, mondecrep, the impale speed penalty)
3) subtract weapon base speed
4) convert gear IAS to EIAS via diminishing returns function and add the result


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:03 am 
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The defense change is really the only thing I'd like to see changed. Seems to be a waste to max Strategy to only have no defense when using the main skill of the build.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:21 am 
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i dont try to be an ass and i apologize if i am, but you guys are going the hard way unnecessary, impale its an attack that was ment to be slow due the inmense assfuck dmg its intended to have, make the skill unstopable, unlockable, unbreakable, unable to dodge block etc, and give it some physical damage over the top... or just change it for another skill. Have you seen impaled rogues laying on fire at the catacombs... there is no magic there, pure physical sticks impulsed strongly thru their bodies.
Berzerker is a magic dmg skill originally, but impale not, give it back physical with some really high dmg, and or give it 2% cb when maxed, again with the ignore target def, unstoppable etc, and leave slow as it is... hard to use, yeah, high risk of death, yeah, but its ment to be like that, just dont tank with it and you are ok. fend and jab ftw tanking.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:56 am 
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It should be noted though that the current Impale's final breakpoint is actually 15 frames. It's just the skill has an innate -30 EIAS attached to it (probably hardcoded). Where normal attack's base animation is 16 frames with a final breakpoint of 9 frames impale's base animation is 25 frames with a final breakpoint of 15. (in the case of trying to calculate impale's speed with EIAS the -30 would replace the 0 in step 1). As for a rough estimate how fast it would be at a given EIAS amount... just simply use that EIAS table I provided for normal attack and multiply by by 26/15 and then tack on +1 frame (the +1 due to the fact the attack speed calculations have different rounding).

Lvl 10 fanata gives 38 EIAS, freeze gives -50 EIAS, mondecrep gives -66 EIAS.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:41 pm 
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Making it uninterruptible and unblockable would be just as bad if not worse than buffing the attack speed slightly. As 100k that can't be stopped is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:17 pm 
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So the judgement will be to keep the original impale breakpoints which has a final breakpoint of 15 frames (which is pretty slow and rather interruptable even with some defense) and rework the vulnerability duration so that maxed impale would be 1 frame of vulnerability then? Currently it's 25 frames of vulnerability when maxed. I can adjust the vulnerability time frame to any amount.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:09 pm 
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LockDown wrote:
Making it uninterruptible and unblockable would be just as bad if not worse than buffing the attack speed slightly. As 100k that can't be stopped is bad.


with the risk of death? i dont think so.
each time you impale you need to be sure its correct moment and place to do it, and if its successfull the damage dealed would be as appropiate to the risk and difficult of the skill... also, impale is not a main skill... go try making a leap-attacker barb wich is almost the same, its a secondary skill that its preferably used to give finish blow to bosses or fasten their death if well implemented (on boss fights) or at least that was the main utility of impale and leap attack on regular D2. kill champs, stoneskins etc (fuckers that die slow with jab and fend due their low dmg plus the DR and D-Sorb on monster), etc.

"oh noes, Diablo is 1% life and cant get near him... he will heal!! ;O BAM leap attack ftw" i remmenber this happened so much times xD

"oh noes dury isnt dying fast enough!! wtf dmg too low!, bam........ bam........ bam...... bam...... (amazon from the back impalin) :D now he dies!! keep tanking barb (or whoever is getting the aggro)" i saw this history on game happen couple of times i swear '-' (regular D2 again tho)

i just say, i feel that unlockable and uninterruptable should go with it, and buff greatly dmg with same assfuck slow speed. Its my opinion, but maybe increase speed could go fine, who am i to say no if havent tested with another speed, i undestand ur concern, but there are alternatives for the skill to keep the main idea of it and make it better, not just making it faster(wich is cool i agree, but it not supposed to be fast).


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Zon already have uninterruptible it doesn't help when you attack at 15 FPA. Especially when a Druid with 2 life buffs and dealing cold or fire dmaage is going at 2fpa with A HUGE defense buff from Bear. It isn't comparable to other melee skills in any way in this mod. Leap attack and Charge have broken mechanics they aren't comparable to Impale.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Well I'm entirely willing to drop the vulnerability duration for maxed impale to 1 frame so the zon at least has some defense to help carry them through the impale. Should I at least do that much for impale? The reason I put quite an argument against the animation change thing was because it had the potential to be faster than the suggester's intentions.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:28 pm 
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whats the point in dropping the duration to 1 frame? Have you played a melee zon? Defence is one of her major means of survival. You will never see a meleezon running for that reason. Thats also why they usually use alot of FRW gear.

All that does is mean the skill has a terrible down side on a char with already gimped life who is completely reliant on high defence. at least at level 10 or so the char will still have some decent defence so its viable to use when surrounded. Listen to the people who have played those builds this patch and know their major drawbacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:32 pm 
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Are you following the convo correctly Purerage? Your post isn't making sense to me. Currently impale drops defense to 0 for a given duration. I'm just asking if it's alright for the defense nulling duration to dropped to 1 frame if impale is maxed.


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Baerk wrote:
I'm just asking if it's alright for the defense nulling duration to dropped to 1 frame if impale is maxed.


also +50% increased life when attacking :twisted: going reckless feeling no pain hurt etc while impalin. '-'

if nothing else is going to happen to the skill, id say niulling the duration would be ok to improve it :/


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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Ofcourse im following it, I don't think you are aware of how a melee zon plays though as having 0 defence even for a split second is near suicide if used when there is more than 1 enemy near you. Go impale achmael with it at hard level 10 and see how long you last.

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 Post subject: Re: Impale
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:55 pm 
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It was one of the more challenging builds I've played this ladder. I loved every minute of it until we hit A4 Hell. Using Impale was never an option with more than 2 monsters near me. The only thing that saves the build is the Unique 2 Handers SM put in. Otherwise the life issue would be an even bigger kick in the balls. I'd just like to see it get the 5% defense per point like berserk did.

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