after some discussion with kevin (purerage-dod), he was willing to put together a complete patch. a link to the patch is included for anyone who wishes to test it out on single player. all input is greatly appreciated!



for anyone who wants to test it out - just extract this data folder into a copy of your current HU folder. create a new shortcut with -direct -txt and you're good to go.

casting amp makes guys immune , little typo with dm56, should be -dm56 or dm56*-1

The boss is cool but isn't area too small for him? What's his dmg +-?
You should set that cube rec formula to hell only (guess it's for now only on all diffs)

ah durp, updating that

Edit: fixed and dl link updated

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Ok ran some chars that I made for testing. 309k plague became 210k, berserker 0% def penalty works ok, 49lvl decoy 147% hp... what about HoW values? dmg and ar like more than 12 per lvl?
Also can Frozen armor be nerfed? It goes 25% per lvl, no other buff than defiance aura give that massive def bonus per lvl. Shout goes 10%, HoW 12 (still must be active), FA should be 15% lvl at most. Unpopular decision I think.
Summons ai delay? still at the same value of 7 or less? skele magies hp gain tweak + buff, inc dmg
You could set higher values for necromage1-4 in missiles.txt min/maxelvlx or add them passive pierce = skill('Skeleton Mastery'.lvl)

all done, and dl link updated and changelog

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Fallens have like 1mln hp btw.

well spotted, a left over from the lifetap testing we done ages ago. updated

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Blessed aim strategy bug fix.
Scale back t5 prayer.
Mental sin updates.
With the cutting back of MDR Melee zons are left where now? (I liked the 2% Strategy thing)
Some item updates.
Remove shard provs
Wep IAS back to smite?
New craft numbers Blue had suggested
Slow missles unaffecting Hurri (to reduce lag)
Poison Necro ( )
Salv Cold Sorb
Gotta do something about fire Druids. Unpopular choice firestorm uncastable from shift. (or reduce life % from soft points from lycan but this hurts all druids)

This is all I could come up with in my sleep deprived state to try and fix I'll run some tests on single player later. Zealers look like they should be playable now.

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blessed aim fixed/strategy conflict fixed
Cold sorb on slav i already fixed, forgot to add it on the list
prayer tier 5 dropped from 12 to 10
non skill IAS returned to smite
hurricane missiles no longer effected by slow missiles


Dont wanna go into the craft stuff outside of the topaz armor, i cant stand item editing and i simply dont have the drive to go through em
Shard procs, no ideas for something else that differentiates them from boss to boss without a proc.
Zon lifebuff would require itemtype editing and lots and lots of unique editing. I'd have to give every single spear in the game a hidden stat that is used by strategys calculation for hp% and i simply dont have the time or drive to edit all those items.
Mentalsin buff, are there numbers i can go on? I do remember a post with suggested progression tho.

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From what I remember:
Blessed aim or perfection need a new state to not override each other.
Hurricane needs "slow" set to 0 in missiles
Wolf/dire need skilldesc update with "max pet"
Assassin's phoenix missiles need "apply mastery" in missiles.txt
Blizzard lvl of a3 guys lowered/glacial too?
MindBlast Sins dmg was adjusted by Abominae(well his idea)(keep in mind LoS sin has 10k dmg psych hammer counter already)
skelchamp id785 AI still as in 1.21
Hydras ai somehow buffed, takes 1 sec before they start attacking
mon iron maiden needs different % gain per lvl or /xx to players. It's 10%dmg per lvl with base 100% and /40 of that to players.. Diablo hell has 20lvl moncurse, to counter that you need 200%ll with 25% drain effectiveness/hell penalty
Boss drain needs looking
Can't remember what more...

edit: nvm, didn't see Lock's post..
1) viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3827
2) viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3969 2nd and 3rd page iirc.

IM divisor increased to /50 vs players from /40
Wolves max pet desription updated
d knight AI delay fixed
Phoenix strike missiles got a 1 in apply mastery


Left blizz alone, its nice to have some spiking elemental attacks IMO.
Left hydras alone, they seemed to perform ok on mine and i dont wanna mess with it at this stage

Edit: link is a constant link, ie. its always the most up to date.

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SoB - missing the new state "energy" in states.txt, only lightning abs works (it's 3x lightabs)

fixed and updated.

Wasnt the state that was missing, it dont need a state. I just gave it 1 energy per hard point so I could keep track of the base level you have. Then used the stat from the blvl in the calc for the absorbs

Problem was, I added light absorb 3 times instead of light + fire and cold. oops

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Crushing Blow
I see no strategic value in having a flat value for all weapons regardless of other mods. The model I am proposing:

"GoreRod, Woesatve, Husoldal Evo, Stormspire, Steelpillar = 4% Crushing Blow
IK Maul, Hone Sundan, Humongous, Minotaur, Exec justice, Windhammer, = 5%
Bloodtree Stump = 6%
Bonesnap = 8%"

Appears superior in practice as it takes in to account weapon speeds and other properties rather than a 1 size fits all approach.

plague jav damage dropped back by 10% on tier 5
This is not consistent with what your text files have. Here are the numbers:

Current realm values: 36/64/102
Your text file values: 36/60/82
my proposed values: 30/60/90

I would argue that may numbers have better value as they address the issue of poison jav throughout the entire game rather than simply end game. When you have top heavy balance adjustments, it tends to frustrate players who experience a powerful character early game that then fizzles out end game.

You are also not addressing Poison jav at all - which is a very powerful skill and will I suspect simply be used instead of plague jav.

Other tier5 skill adjustments
Similar statements as above.

facets range from 2-5%
templars armor changed to +2 skills and minimum pierce dropped to 8% elemental/pois and 4% magic (max unchanged)
This to me just increases the tedium of finding good items and rewards single player farming over team play.

I would suggest setting it to 3-5% if you want to decrease facet potency, which I certainly don't argue against. Keep in mind though that this ONLY impact new facets found and not current facets.

From the list, I think that we can quickly and without trouble implement:
23: shields base damage increased by 20%
24: smite damage per level increased by 5%
36: all of the LoS heroes are now knockback immune

Not including the items that are already addressed in my proposed patch (which is the majority of them). The shield/smite stuff is easily put in to play, but I am unsure where the knockback aspect is for the LOS heroes. Just let me know which txt file that is located in and I can get it in place.

For reference (to save complaints), I have highlighted the items in the list that are already addressed in the patch I have rolling:

1: cb added to a couple of mace type 1 handers
2: cb increased to a max of 6% on the items that have cb already
3: ber rune changed to 2%cb in weapons
4: holy auras synergys changed to convic and respective resist aura both for 20%
5: MDR on diamonds cut back
6: Armor override on zerk reduced by 5% per hard point (negated when maxed)
7: Geddon and valor rws masterys removed and replaced with 50% fire mastery
8: maul grants 10% critical +2% per hard point
9: fana grants 10% critical +2% per hard point
10: plague jav damage dropped back by 10% on tier 5
11: plague jav duration at tier 1 changed from 10frames per lvl to 5
12: necro blades cooldown increased to 2.5 secs
13: buffed spirit wolves damage and increased max number to 2+1 per 5 soft levels
14: dire wolves damage increased slightly and max number increased to 3
15: HoW grants 1% dr per hard point to the party
16: SoB grants 1% ele absorb per 2 hard points
17: Bone spear tier 5 damage scaled back by 10%
18: Bone Spirit damage increased by 10% on tier 5
19: rabies tier 5 damage scaled back by 15%
20: facets range from 2-5%
21: amp values reinstated but enemys cursed with it also deal bonus damage = phys pierce on amp
22: enemy lifetap causes hp drain = their level per second
23: shields base damage increased by 20%
24: smite damage per level increased by 5%
25: blessed aim grants 1% passive lifesteal per level
26: elemental set parts grant +20 oskill meteor, glacial spike and thunder storm when fully equipped
27: confuse is no longer overwritten by other curses
28: meteor patch duration reduced by 20%
29: ce timer removed
30: Medi on holy amulets replaced with prayer
31: Crushing blow added as a suffix at 2-3% on weapons
32: deadly strike added as a suffix on weapons at 5-15%
33: templars armor changed to +2 skills and minimum pierce dropped to 8% elemental/pois and 4% magic (max unchanged)
34: topaz craft armor caps at +1 skills
35: boss resists remain untouched
36: all of the LoS heroes are now knockback immune
37: decoy reduced from 100% of zon hp + 10% per lvl to 75% of zon hp +3% hp per lvl.
38: fixed moncurse versions of amp + lower resist
39: summons Ai delay dropped to 2 frames
40: frozen armor def bonus dropped to 20% per level
41: necromage hp gain fixed and increased to 10% per level
42: necromage missiles buffed
43: HoW aura increased to 40% def/ar/damage + 15 per level, up from 36%+12% per level
44: blessed aim fixed/strategy conflict fixed
45: Cold sorb on slav i already fixed, forgot to add it on the list
46: prayer tier 5 dropped from 12 to 10
47: non skill IAS returned to smite
48: hurricane missiles no longer effected by slow missiles

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Also,

4: holy auras synergys changed to convic and respective resist aura both for 20%
Changes like this are nice, but I worry about them being implemented server side due to display errors. I can envision a host of confusion from players who see one thing on their skill tree and something totally different when they actually add points.

I would suggest only implementing skill adjustments like this in conjunction with a full update rather than with a serverside "hotfix"

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

And I posted this and then realized I had 1 point in sob. Funny tho, yeah state isn't needed.

How about switching paladin vengance animation/give extra pierce to it/give some new rw with 10lvl conviction on wear - with currenty selfsynergy formula all your hard points pierce will be xfered to that aura allowing them to use something different/help holy aura dins
Change to lightning/chain light cast anim too?
Forb damage increase? I have 90lvl orb sorc with nearly the best items at that lvl and I'm hitting 8k per bolt, 5lvl(+skills ofc) blizz outdamages orb and it has only 1 synergy maxed... Well maybe this build is ok just I don't have experience with sorcs. I can gear her up and give exact numbers later.
I thought it was going to be a normal update... it's too big to hotfix server

the client update is there in the first post, that updates everything clientside.

@CB: it does vary from weapon to weapon, from 4-6 on 2 handers. Just in no perticular patern.

Plague jav/tier5 stuff: math moment ftw, however, damage in the early/mid game is fine with plague isn't it? Early and mid game is whare things are the most balanced. The problems start at skill level 45ish.
Pois Jav: I didnt edit it because its smaler AoE than plague and its duration is static, With the nerf to decoy, they will have to move around more but the duration means they also have to attack more.

Pierce on temps/facets:
facets already have a range diff of 3, so it wont be more tedious than it is already.
Templars will be used regardless of the variation in pierce, high def, all res and +2 skills. yum yum.

kb immune LOS is done in monstats and monstats2

look for druid and change his monstatsex to druid (from wolf)
open monstats2 and copy wolf to the bottom and rename it druid. remove the 1 from the mKB column. Same with paladin and amazo in monstats2.

As far as item editing goes, i hate spending time in those files so I avoided most of it.

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Duration is mostly irrelevant as throwers toss much more than 1 jav every 5-8 seconds. The rate is the only key factor, the duration can pretty much be ignored other than providing people who don't understand the math of poison a nice big number to look at.

Having played a psn jav through normal, I can tell you that the problem isn't just end game. I have been single player running a jav with the values I have together and she is still very strong and not 100% gimped. I would hate to crush the build altogether by implementing a 37% reduction in the final tier,

Thx for the info on the txt files, will chuck that in there and keep mulling over the other proposals.

I view any sort of client side edit as purely optional unless there is a reset to force people's hands. Massive client side downloads also provide a spike to our hosting folks and I try to avoid that when possible to prevent being a burden to them.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Anyway we can bring back the psn cloud to the psn striker? As it is now it is almost impossable to hit any boss from a3 nm and up...

A idea with soul shard procs ... Change the procs to a oskill ...This can make for some neat late game ideas for chars.. Not sure what oskill for each act to go with the boss theme..

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P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

Wow, I go to lunch and look what I come back to .

After the bulk is done, please do not forget a few things the buglist. Looks like a number of them have already been addressed. I will put an X or something before the ones that have been fixed so you don't have to scour as much...a few skill and item things need a quick fix. I am wary of doing them myself from the download because by the time I get them done, it will prolly be updated from that version.

Edit: I edited the buglist to highlight what has been done on Rage's side of things. I didn't note Blue's fixes as I don't know if these lists will be somewhat merged or what...he has fixed a few other things on the buglist.

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The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

I understand you, but does this mean we're not getting those super awesomely cool new safety crafts?! I'd do the item editing but I have no fucking idea how to do it.
Didnt someone say that they could do them if needed? didnt kramuti say he could do it?

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Its always in the last place you look....

Yes, as long as nobody else is going to do anything in this file, and if Blue's fixes are not merged to some extent. I have to grade crap at some point today, will be gone all day tomorrow...really weekend would be best for me to do this if need be.

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The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

@Blue: The tier 5 drop is 10% tier 4 6%ish
your values only bring an average of an extra 2 per level over tier's 3 4 and 5
Applying the hitshift thats 1.5625 per second forthe duration of the poison (before synergys obviously)
I would say they are pretty close to each other, on average. So either way is fine. My way simply slows them down in hell (whare builds should be being slowed down IMO) and leaves them roughly as they are through norm and nm.
I wouldn't worry about a zon being overpowered in normal, its hard to find a char that is underpowered in normal.


Remember pois jav and spray have a hitshift of 2 while plague has a hitshift of 3

The diff between a hitshift of 2 and 3 is a 100% boost meaning those tiers are still higher than poison jav is. If pois jav is already very strong then plague jav will still be very strong and even your current values for plague are still around 30% higher than that of poison jav.

Still, its a ranged attack that causes 1 counter per 8 secs max and can be used from a distance with a recastable tank to distract bosses.

NP about a clientside host. I can host it from my dropbox, thats whare its at atm anyway (very good download speed) and its only a very small file.

@Verb: Not from me, i dont have the time nor the drive to do items. Today was all I could spare to do this.

Edit: also, no love for:

?
Requires no reset or anything, dan been messing around with him today


He casts bone spirits when he takes damage, uses hoarfrost, lightning vortex, nihlas fire ring and Bone Spear. He also counters with diablos flamewave.
He has a 1% chance to summon a protector when he takes damage that renders him completely immune while it is alive.
His platform is a small floating rectangle and his AI distance covers the whole area.
He will sometimes use dragonflight on ranged players who get over excited.

It's Soulmancer, he has to be hard!
He drops the Hero's Reward Grand Charm.

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Well. I'm aware that most of PR gg changes won't be implemented in final "hotfix" update. IF Blue says no

As for download big patches... hosts can download data/dll folder and it will be ok, same as we can. Big patches can be hosted on free filesharing sites too.

Imo it's better to give something more after 7months without reset so future, if any, bugs will be found before reset. Well at least I could see a good amp for a moment. Giving 6points do din should require reset, not before as I'm not seeing 99% dins redoing chars.

Kramuti - update that WW missing mag synergy - it can't be done, ww func doesn't have any calc4 as other barbarian skills. Synergy from berserker should be removed from WW as it doesnt work.

Noted. Will change the listing.

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The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

Feel free, though blue is almost done with his now so probs wont be needed.

Its there for future patches or for folks to mess around with if they like though.

Anyway on that note, I should get back to my own stuff or i gonna miss my weekend deadline.

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On the topic of Poizons beign OP in Normal - I remember playing with a lvl60ish plaguezon a while ago. He dropped Baal in 10 sec... he said he had 80k damage. True or not, I do not know, but if it is, such a high damage shouldn't be possible, even if you are twinked as hell.

these are rush zons with 70lvl elite crafts like 20/20 psn belts, 2 all skill armors etc. That damage will be the same up to 85lvl. Rabies can have 120k psn damage leaving norm and 125k entering hell.
Remember that psn doesn't stack! in any 5ppl+ game psn does little to nothing dmg. I saw many 160k psn zons on hell having problems with siege beasts (well low pierce I think).
Don't overnerf psn too much as it will become sleepyfest vs anything that moves. Sometimes it's good to have a boss killer when other chars just lack firepower - like chain lightning sorcs aren't much effective vs bosses around their lvl, long cast animation and big dmg spread etc. There are few builds like that but well, don't overnerf/overbuff anything as we're heading good way (with amp making it's return - nonlikely )

It isn't a small file once it is compiled in to a full download. You will be looking at a 365MB file. Dropbox will probably disallow that.

As for local data folders that people can run, ya sure - *THAT* is a small file easily hosted about anywhere, but that is also something that is going to be optional. For new players, having to jump through all sorts of hoops to get a version installed isn't good. It will also make this patch incompatible with D2SE and I have been working with Seltsamuel of late to get us integrated in to his program. A single zip file is crucial for that and will make future updates much easier (or so it seems).

As such - I really don't think now is the time for adjustments that REQUIRE a client update. So if there are changes that are going to introduce display errors, I think we just need to push them off to the Fall/Winter reset.

re: Soulmancer boss
Will that work without a client update? Seems like a pretty significant change for a strictly serverside adjustment, but I don't know the inner workings very well. I have been sticking with very simple straight forward adjustments.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Blue, i know this is not relevant for the patch, but are you adding the new runewords and changes the community agreed on?

New Rune words:
First 3 are shields, last 3 are claws only

Woe (Sur Lo Sol)
+2 to All Skills
Resist All +25%
+50-100% Enhanced Defense
+10 – 30 Energy
+500 Defense
5-10% Cold Absorb
+30% Increased Chance of Blocking
Level 10 Holy Freeze Aura when Equipped
Adds 250-500 Cold Damage
+6% to Magic Skill Damage
+6% to Cold Skill Damage
Damage Reduced by 10

Daylight (Sur Ohm Sol)
+2 to All Skills
Resist All +25%
+50-100% Enhanced Defense
+10 – 30 Energy
+500 Defense
5-10% Lightning Absorb
+30% Increased Chance of Blocking
Level 12 Holy Shock Aura when Equipped
Adds 1-1000 Lightning Damage
+6% to Magic Skill Damage
+6% to Lightning Skill Damage
Damage Reduced by 10

Victory (Ber Mal Sol Shael)
+2 to All Skills
Resist All +25%
+300-400% Enhanced Defense
5-10% Cold Absorb
90% Faster Block Rate
+30% Increased Chance of Blocking
Level 20 Might Aura when Equipped
Indestructible
Curse Duration Reduced by 6%
Magic Damage Reduced by 15
Damage Reduced by 10
10% Faster Run Walk

Madness (Dol Lum Tir)
+1-2 to Shadow Disciplines
20-25% Faster Cast Rate
-8-10% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +10%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+24 Life After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

Deception (Mal Lum Tir)
+3 to Assasin Skill Levels
+30% Faster cast Rate
-15-20% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +10-15%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

Shadow of Doubt (Jah Lum Tir)
+3 to Assasin Skill Levels
+2 to Psychic Hammer
+2 to Mind Blast
+45% Faster cast Rate
-30% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +15%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

Absolutely no way a brand new maps/cube recipes/monsters (especially new monster IDs of any sort) could possibly work with only a server side adjustment.

Also it should be noted any damage tier adjustments aren't going to display properly without a client side update (it won't cause any crash problems for damage tier changes but server side damage definately won't agree what the unupdated client side claim it should be).

The only server side changes one could do without updating client side that's completely bug report safe would be changes to the monsters stats and counter strength/existing item stats (as long as it doesn't modify save bit field lengths)/ and item drop rates.

Things such as brand new runewords would require a client side update.

data folder is fully compatable with d2se, theres even 2 little check boxes to turn it on or off.

That folder there is all that is needed for a client update. I doubt a data folder will be an issue as clientside updates have never been a problem before. Hell Unleashed.bat already runs -direct -txt automatically. You dont have to pack it all into a clientside patch, just a data folder (as its all text editing its small)
I'm very familiar with D2SE as its required to play my mod (multiple MPQ's). Is extremely user friendly and a clientside update would be easily added.


Without a client update, decoy hp wont display right and ce cooldown removal wont work right as the clientside click wont register. A clientside update should be offered at the very least, be it with or without whats done here.

Safe stuff to do without a client update:
Cube recipes
Monster stats/skills/equip/properties
armor/weapon def/damage adjustments
uniqueitems, sets and runewords (as long as the runeword already has a name slot). If you add a new runeword with a new name you need a client update. (Same for adding new uniques/sets)


Anything else will need a client side update to sync up propperly with whats happening server side.

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Not all cube recipes are necessarily safe though. If it's a cube recipe to create a new item such as that key to lead to the soulmancer boss it would probably be a problem.

It should be noted though D2SE has a mechanism for allowing users to apply txt updates in a small easy package though (in the form of replacing only 1 mpq file). With this easy update feature on D2SE you should not really discourage yourself from client side updates as long as it does not include new monster sprites, music, or maps. The update mpq will stay tiny as long as the updates are only the txt files.

" new boss" cant something more creative be done other than using the 7 hearts, they are a pain to get as it is.

what about shard procs will they be removed/changed?
still say max res or absorb would be more fitting 2-3% single element or something

you forgot the oak nerf.

18: Bone Spirit damage increased by 10% on tier 5

bone orb no one likes? that sam hein uses? its speed is the problem not the dmg

lol this guy

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

So any changes that could possibly bring back few builds back like fanat getting deadly, smite getting OIAS, maul getting deadly, more summons, more dmg to them... are held back because we need hotfix(hot means after a week of actual patch) not full time update.... but it's ok to give 6 points to dins, oak nerf and a little cb on wpns nobody uses/will use.
Blue, let's just merge most of these updates and see what happens. It will be a lot easier to fix next problems having a little better chars than all sucky ones. It's not like after 7months there will be some balance twist. Noobs can't get past normal diablo without rushing as they're not realizing how pdr/mdr/good gear planning is crucial. And yeah, damage is needed, not 1 more stats per lvl to vita.

could we remove the drain effect from skull crafts?
I mean the caster crafts dont get something negative but melee crafts does?
Its kinda unfair and there's no real argument for why melee have to suffer more then casters. Seeing as casters are the strongest builds, they are the ones that should have the drain effect and not melee.
It would make the skull crafts a lot more "attractive" at least.

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Its always in the last place you look....

I know I crafted some 39 ias gloves for my bowa that I couldn't use before hitting 99 because of how hard it is to get rep from anywhere. Soul Drainers have -life but most caster gear has rep on it somewhere. Eg Marrows Imm Flesh HHG

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Rofl

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Crappolla.
Guess I need to ramp up my understanding of D2SE and that puts a crimp on my time. Fawk. I have a week long development meeting all next week which will shoot a giant hole in my time too. Bleh!

Oh well. I appreciate the info.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

well I was comparing the crafts not just any random items against the skull crafts.

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Its always in the last place you look....

could we add recipes to downgrade runes?
eld -> el el el

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

is that hero's charm suppose to be 2 skill?

Whats the consensus with counters vs spamable skills like FO?

Problem with that is you find A Cham and you have 4 Bers.

_________________

how many bers is a cham worth in trading?
ps when can we expect to contact duff and make pious'/kev's patch live?

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

shouldent we vote on this over blues patch, are they being combined? or is this debatable?

I wanted to see sorce orbs get 2-3 range, and add ww orb with next reset.

Are the crafts being implemented?

If the boss resists are not being changed, what if my party does not want to use amp and im melee, do i just stand there looking pretty? Wernt the boss res changes to help nerf poison and buff phys and magic?

As for the necro spear/spirit change, why not just remove the +7 bone spear form marrows?

When you say lifetap drains life = lvl, is that their monster level or skill lvl?

removing the tank-ability of casters will cause more rushing in nm/hell imo as teams are hard to come by, even on SC.


Is valor going to have fire mastery as well as written or is that a typo?


I think the new area for soulmancer should be larger, as his main attack is hoarfrost, its best to stand against the wall to prevent multiple hits. - also is the grand charm suppose to be 2 skills? is gaining the hardest 2 levels, 7 hearts, getting to sammy, and killing this new boss worth 2 skills on a grand charm while killing sammy gives +3 skills and max life rep on a small charm?

it seems most of these changes are made towards end game, what are we doing for the mid/early game?

the charm has 2-3 skills like it is on the web page. Its not supposed to be a huge bonus (the hardest stuff shouldn't be required to make your char good but just something else. Even if the charm only has +1 hp, it's just an optional boss you can do as a final challenge once you finish everything else. Designed to be seriously hard and require team work. I made the level small on purpose so a tank is actually required to distract him and make him aim away from the ranged chars.

The crafts arent being implemented (by me anyway) but someone is free to take the files and do them if they like. I only had yesterday to do all of that and can't spare any more time on this.

Boss res wasn't changed because amp was reverted, even with the suggested bos res adjustments, amp is still required to deal any sygnificant damage.

lifetap drain is equal to the monsters level who casts it, not the skill level.

casters shouldn't be able to deal huge damage and tank, but i dont see casters losing any tankability as they don't actually get in to close range and the only think they are losing is some of the MDR available on items.

valor/geddon have no mastery anymore, a typo in runes.txt or a typo in a previous post?

are changes required in early/mid game? norm and NM is a complete joke atm IMO.

Any further changes to this set of files will have to be done by someone else though, I didn't really have the time to spare to do it in the first place. Pious sweet talked me into it

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In that case I guess I could handle editing in further changes then... The question though being will there actually be vote decision choosing whether its this patch or blue's.

Well, PMed Soulmancer about this, will see what he thinks(if). Can edit some gear too, if needed, have some free time till wednesday

Can I sweet talk you next time

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To clarify, I didn't make this to "Overthrow" blue. Some friends were concerned he had quit so I made it so there was an alternative base for a patch that had a decent set of changes already included.

The only thing that concerns me is that the patch that will go live is supposed to be a community patch, but when a patch was made/suggested, one member of the community didn't like it so it so it was brushed aside and seems like it's just being ignored. Starting to question why the word "Community" is being used to refer to the next patch. The only "Community Patch" is one that is worked on by the community as a team. This seems to be happening here now so I was successful on that front at the very least.

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I believe this discussion has been productive, and I thank Kevin for taking time to put this forward for the community. I encourage everyone to continue discussing the proposed changes. However, no one needs to spend time editing the files at this moment. I believe we need to find out first exactly what blue's course of action is, since his indecision is wasting our time and effort.

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I to appreciate the time you gave us even though you have your own mod to deal with and limited free time. (Btw tried out your mod liked what I saw from Pally)

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Indeed. I was there that night Kevin spent making this patch. He has put a lot of time and effort into doing so and Pious assisted. I don't think their work should be in vain.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Mancer won't reply. Coulda told you that before you sent the PM. He only came back briefly for a few posts. He has no interest in making a decisive decision. He left HU in the communities hands.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Pally is probs the best all rounder at the min. Dont go near the necro till I finish this update, he suuuuuux atm.

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Only fiddled around with the Pally for about 6-7 hours and the sorc for 3-4 and the barb for a bit. Hydra sorcy was getting to be super fun lol.

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Releasing a community patch was the biggest mistake of the last round. Going with the community feedback (adjustment to Amp dmg, psn builds, etc) was what caused the problems. Outside of a private, closed forum I see no value in community input on specifics.

Listening to the community to determine what the community wants has significant value. It works best if I then interpret that information in to a complete package that works for the WHOLE community.

Having a portion community actually make specific changes that they feel express what they want though is a failing move. Most gamers simply don't have that capacity and generate bad information.

I won't call this a community patch though. This is my interpretation of what will make HU a better and more enjoyable mod for the community. I don't expect all the players to understand all the components of it though.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Your interpritation of oak + paladin stats was way off though, i think it would be wise to try to find a better solution to those problems than pushing something nobody wants on everybody.

The portion of the community who are taking action are well versed in d2 mechanics and should be taken seriously.

It dosen't have to be a community built patch. In the end people will choose if they are happy with it or not and can then decide if they want to play it. With D3 around the corner, this may be the last patch that has a high player base. Once d3 is out, 50% will be gone, leaving only those who have played here from the beggining. If you alienate them, they won't be here anymore either. It's the people who have been here through thick and thin that will keep this mod alive in the future.

I'm not too concerned with completely new players who disagree as only 1 in 100 new players will actually stick with the mod for multiple years. My concerns are that after many many long time players disagree with a change, it is still going through. It may turn out fine, we'll have to wait and see. If it turns out bad though, will people stick around for another 7 months playing a mod they don't enjoy or agree with?

I think this patch needs to be a patch that brings back the people, not drive them away.

Sure a reset may bring many new faces, but those faces won't still be here when D3 comes out.

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Is a reset incoming?

this is pathetic

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

Where have you guys been? 15 page long suggestion thread regarding Oak Nerf and Blue still stands on his position. He was proven wrong regarding 6 stat Paladins and he still stands on that decision.

You think your going to compromise with him on a community patch or get him to change six stat pals and the oak nerf? He doesn't give a shit that most the poll numbers are against him. He isn't going to compromise on a single thing, period.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE7r0yw4xoY
key part is at 3:10

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

You're completely right Blue. Whoever chose those incomplete, untested suggestions that were thrown around by the development team and just implemented them into mod must have not have any idea of what he was doing.
To boot, the majority of those threads had been dead and stale for months before someone happened upon them, it would've been ludicrous and completely ignorant to just choose them and implement them into the mod with impunity. I can't imagine who would make such a terrible blunder.

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A Lannister always pays his debts.

I totally forgot about the part where he said
'if obama had a bacon sandwich tomorrow the republicans would ban bacon'. i laughed and laughed...and i am a conservative (not a republican...they aren't conservative either).

Sorry to derail...so wtf is going on anyway with this stuff? Gone all day and looks like things started to boil a bit.

I have some time this weekend to work on some things. I could implement the crafting stuff from Blue's list that was well received, and prolly some other things as well.

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The reader should not be discouraged if...he does not have the prerequisites to read the prerequisites. P. Halmos

What's the consensus on bringing back the psn cloud to necro's?

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

what about the magic and psn boss res changes? also id rather be able to do non-significant damage vs have to have amp damage. I dont think ill ever see a party full of melee characters running around and i dont wanna hope that the party wants to use amp.

in the OP valor and geddon both have 50% fire mastery, insteada 50 fire and 50 cold mastery. was this a type0 or is valor going to have 50 fire mastery too?

as for soulmancer, im just saying if you stand on the edge of the map, you avoid tons of damage. thought making the map larger would solve this problem.

early/mid game changes should be made to increase the difficulty. the game is pretty easy up to act 4 hell imo.

I think this community talk is BS as the community is most likely playing on the realm and not shitting their opinion on these threads. the community is based on old players and new. and the community can never agree on the same thing. thats why we have one person who makes decisions and tells everyone else to STFU. isnt that why we have blue?

some people in the community who havent really posted here. (sorry if i mentioned you and ur here, dident really check all of these names)

diablos646
overkill
frozenseven
hftown
raqib
rajawal1
zerum
asteroth
gccanada
bts
ida_jones
sweetfel
tase
titaniumbaby
++++ many more.

a small group of HC players are not the community.

IMO we shoulda had blues patch live 1 month ago. but all these people crying over non game breaking changes has stopped the progression of this mod.

But thats ok, cuz now they are getting what they want. soon everone is going to run around with melee characters who do tons of damage, tank, life leech and life tap, and run around in god mode like before. which is why melee was nerfed in the first place.

Do you have any psn dmg values across the game? Psn cloud was too good when they had tele, high pierce, 70%lr, 250k psn dmg easily with just full trang/dweb and later tons of skillers/rnb.
Probably typo, each should have only one 50%

1)magic could go lower, mainly because there will be only 3 chars that use magic dmg Hammerdins,bonenecs,mentalsins. Magic is the only source of damage(other than phys ofc) that can't benefit from mastery, overall pierce values are lower than ele sources while bosses have the same res on all of these. Well, at least abs should be toned down.
2)It worked well last patch, Soulmancer added many many good stuff with amp charges/on hit so amp was always present on boss fights. Can't have both high amp and bosses with 50% phys res. If they have 95% phys res then you'll need dec/amp anyway. Could just adjust amp formula to go high early - like 4% per 1 soft point then 1% per hard/2soft. Easily 40% amp but extra 25 from maxed nec, something like that.

Unlike now when poison chars and casters can run around dealing tons of damage at a distance and relative safety i suppose?

they cant run around with lifetap all the time cos they have bosses phys resist to contend with still.



Nobody said it was, and nobody said you have to use this as a base. Maybe you should relax a little bit.

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Some of that list (bolded) has spoken out about the current state of affairs in one way or another. Half of them are relatively new to HU and really have no way of knowing what it was like before this patch.

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lmao! IIRC duff said to pm him in future cos he dont always check the forums.

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I did a week ago

Oh dear.

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Lol

I would just like to clarify that I did post here. I gave my view (as a tele playing, non-shift cold-wind druid) as to what an oak nerf would do to his playability afer an oak nerf/ bump to lycan. I also stated that I believed Abominae and Steel described my thoughts on it very clearly, and supported there statements which were much more in-depth than mine could/ was ever going to be.

I basically got slammed by Blue (after he asked the community for opinions). Like many of the others around here. Which is fine, he is the person that was left in charge of the modding, has been playing HU much longer, and should have a much more clear idea as to the direction that it should take. I would hope.

I actually read all of the debates on here, and one thing is very clear. The people who REALLY know this game (pure-rage/steel/abominae/Kramuti/pious) are the ones who make the in depth and really constructive arguements. They are the ones that really know the numbers behind this game and basically argue it for the community.

Im not trying to start a beef here or something PmP, but the posts you have made would be very similar to mine if I were to be a more active poster on the forums. Not very educated or numbers based like theres which are backed up with reasoning almost every time, not simply "yes oak nerf, you dont need it."

Obviously posts like this dont really help the people in charge in making a decision, it doesnt really give them anything to go off of like the people who have been playing this mod for multiple seasons and have a better working knowledge of whats going on and what should go on.

Thats why so many people have been dis-satisfied with Blue. Not because he ignores everybody (like he did me), but because he seems to be ignoring the people who really have a clear understanding of this mod and whose opinions should be truly valued. Having random people without that really deep understanding of the game (like yours and mine) try to persuade the people who are in charge when there are people in the community much more qualified then us for voicing opinions doesnt make sense to me.

I really enjoy HU. I am very interested and excited to see it go in a positive direction. I have met many great people, and enjoy an awesome player base of people that I game with almost daily when time permits.

That doesnt mean I dont have opinions or ideas on where it should go. But until I play this mod through and through, with multiple characters/builds and not just the cookie cutter ones that are prevelant at this time, I and those like us shouldnt be the ones to push this mod in one direction or another.

Psn Cloud is needed... My psn striker atm has over 16k ar with metal grid and he still can't hit shit even tried all dex gear still no go..
And with no tele the cloud isn't as nearly as bad as it was..

As for the me not posting on this thread much.. Reason is i'm not here to fight with people..
I said many times already about the oak nerf and pally stat bullshit...Its clearly one of the stupidest ideas I ever seen..
Blue why do you still push this on us all when we don't want this kinda change..Sad all your doing is splitting the community in half just like what happened with aftermath...Well with that said..Those changes with oak and the pally are the ones that stand out the most as being silly the rest seem okay...


Kev do you have a link with the Dload with your mod would love to check it out.. And thx for you hard work m8 .. Sit back and smoke a big fatty

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P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

Where's my corpse explosion cooldown fix??

29 on list

I dont have any numbers on psn strike. From what I understand they have the highest listed damage right now of all the psn builds. i see no reason why it cant be scaled closer to plauge since they are both 60 pt builds. also with loss of spam blades they shouldn't be a one man team but i cant say for sure.

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

" new boss" cant something more creative be done other than using the 7 hearts, they are a pain to get as it is.

what about shard procs will they be removed/changed?
still say max res or absorb would be more fitting 2-3% single element or something

Well it's the 7 hearts or kevin suggested the five shards previously. In any case.. I do agree that seems a bit harsh but I'm willing to be ok with it because killing the 101 boss is more of a challenge/reward than it is just a reward. The charm isn't even that great imo. GC +2-3 even Hell Samhain SC = +3. It's more of a brag thing imo to kill him.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

428k Perfect Gear Wise.

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There are only like 3 chars 101lvl?

Getting Hearts is kinda hard and only one player can get reward then maybe 3 charges always on key?
Still hearts... they give you something neat, shards could be better.

As for proc - can be removed. Abs is too much for +1 skill sc that everyone actually has and always will use so there's just free abs. +2-3 stats maybe? Like free 15 when perfs.

Shard drop chance will be increased ofc??

Here's another idea, if it's not overly difficult. Give Andy shard 3-5% all res, Duri shard 3-5 stats, mehpi shard 1-3% sorb, Diablo shard 1-3% dr and Baal 5-7 stats. In this manner they give something more useful than procs, without a huge impact across the board.

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"The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits" Albert Einstein

when you say revert amp to previous lvls, how much is that? I didnt play last season so I have no idea what kind of lvls they are.

Would it be possible to get that Lacerator buff in to the patch? buff to 450% ed

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Its always in the last place you look....

From what Kev/Pious told me last night:
1 point Amplify Damage should be ~65% physical pierce when you're fully geared.
The cap on Amplify Damage will be 75%.


Also, taken from Kev's wishlist in another thread:
34: Cobra strike changed - passive -50% + 10% def bonus per level and 1% life/mana steal per level
38: blessed hammer ignores undeads resistances
38: FotH ignores demons resistances

Would love to see these implemented. It would be a major boon to Hammer/FoHdins while stopping them from completely dominating every boss in the game. It also gives FoH a very nice, specific function. When combined with it's Undead clearing, it should make the skill something you can viably focus on.

Also, there's been talk about this before, but I'd like to bring it up again. At some point, someone suggested adding 1/4 Weapon Damage to Shockwave. If that can be implemented, it would turn Shock Wave into a pretty cool build with some fun options to tinker with.
For reference:
Shock Wave @ Level 50: 15.2k-17.9k

With 1/4 weapon damage, you'll be adding ~10k-25k depending on whether you go pure vita or pure strength. Opens up a hybrid build option for Maul Druids, as well as buffing anyone who wants to make a pure Shock Wave Druid.

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A Lannister always pays his debts.

is that this season?
just went back and checked the post i got numbers from and realized steel was talking about last ladder

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

okey but thats for necros, what about a lvl 1 amp that your get from procs? at how much does amp start with?

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Its always in the last place you look....

lvl 1 amp is 32% and lvl 20 amp is 67%. skills into amp begin to diminish heavily after that as the cap is roughly 75%.

most of the coders will be softcore players with the exception of purerage-dod. steel, kramuti, and baerk are all veteran-sc players. since i don't have any coding knowledge i will just be pushing along the effort.

Last season psn necs had 650k with full gcs. Could go higher ! with different gear that trang but there wasnt really need to. Lr 70% and more pierce on full trang (HolyGhost had alone 120 piere iirc).
I made a psn nec for a test last ladder, made him to 92lvl with 3 or 4 gcs, dweb + trang + 16 or less/more psn boots... had 270k per 7.5sec. Could solo every boss in game, only meph was harder because his bone attacks/hurricane.

Now? full trang and any boots + dweb = 160k dmg with 15%/-15%pierce from full trang, -15%(perf) dweb and 50% lr. Add facets, carrion rings/necs 10% and you'll get 210k. Switch to griffons, templar boneflame/darkforge etc etc and you'll have hard time getting high def/ar and getting crushed by everything what you want to hit.
Edit: viewtopic.php?p=32257#p32257 here and below/next page you can get numbers I had in mind then.

i don't see a problem with returning the cloud to psn strike. the nerfs to gear and lr have already done a number on psn necs as is. anyone with objections give your arguments. otherwise we can add it to the list.

Going to have throw support this way regarding these changes. Completely agree with Zac. FoH/Hammerdins need some sort of buff. This would help a lot. It may bring them back to playability in decent numbers on the realm.

Shockwave druids as well need some form of a buff. I've hardly ever seen one. Also Mindsins should be buffed in some form or another. These are just a few builds that need some serious attention if they ever going to be playable. The post Zac did on mindsins goes more into detail but basically the damage is just too low. They aren't really good at doing anything. Can't kill bosses and PH on trash? They should be decent against bosses.

The 1/4th weapon damage idea seems like a great idea to buff SW druids. What are other peoples thoughts? I could go more in depth but I feel I'm stating what is obvious here. All builds with hardly any playability.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Btw something to add to the list that I didn't see is removing the soulshard procs on andy/dury/meph/dia/baal. Is that going to be done?

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Aren't psn necros still the highest form of poison damage in the game? I thought the reason the cloud was removed was because everyone felt psn necs were op but with Lr going back to being 1pted is this going to be Javaon dejavu? Without touching poison nec damage, adding back the cloud and reducing LR to 1pt it seems as if poison necs are going to be OP as they once were.

As far as getting ar.. how much ar are you talking about? You realize that rabies druid can roll around with very low ar. You only need to hit once. You don't need 20-30k ar on a psn character.

Rather than add the cloud back to POISON necros there are several other ways to 'buff' them. Otherwise.. my assumption is javazon dejavu.

Any arguments?

Err.. wait. Lr isn't going back to being 1 pted. But regardless I still think the cloud may be a bad idea.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

should we still consider a reduction in magic absorb on the boss charm to help the magic -based builds?

I'm currently unsure of psn nec's damage but lockdown posted 428k perf gear. I don't see anywhere that LR is being restored to 1 pt status. Rabies druids get ar boost from shifted form + rabies i know nec's have bone armour but im not sure of the comparison in total %, They also had blades/tele on trangs before.

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“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”

just for the record lr will not be changed. u will still need to max it if you want a good lr.

Shockwave use fcr, right? 25k with like 30%fcr still isn't impressive.
What will be the point of this build anyway? Hybrid of wc barbs and melee chars? something to clear trash faster? Clearly this works only in SS form, has range about wc and stuns. Going pure caster gear you'll do less dps than WC barbs and will have to use 1h wpn/shield to get 10frames per cast... Going puremaul 2h you'll have a good wpn vs chargers/immuns(stun these bloody bees in a3) but overall dps will be low. Weird hybrid. How damage looks early game. It's 40 point build, these are the worst to balance - rabies.

Now it's not. Number wise maybe. fully geared plague zons do 450k - let's say 400 - and fully geared psn nec 430 - let's say 350 with non perf gear. And you have 0 lifebuffs and actually have to get close 2-3 range to deal damage. I can easily say you'll be doing 40% of actual plague zons because that hit and run issue. Rabies dru have it better too, higher ar, wolf form with the best fhr in game, 2 lifebuffs, damage almost the same.Cloud was removed because trang had tele, max res, good +skills, many free sockets(now you want to use diamonds/rubies in sockets). Before you got trang and/or skillers build was WELL balanced...

Poison shouldn't be threaten as all the evil here. Nothing wrong with having 200k psn on hell! It's direct damage not like plague/rabies dealing with entire screen.
Lr isn't going to be 1pt skill wonder ever. There is too much pierce to allow that.
He did it funky way(hero editor), but I can say that Fleever's psn nec hit around 420 after we got nec heart for him. He's using psn nova on bosses...

+1 on pious regarding magic abs reduction on bosses in response to Zikur.

Maybe my math is incorrect then. I don't know here's what I came up with.

Gear

Deaths web

+8

Griffon

+3

Templars

+3

Crafted amulet

+2

Dforce

+5

Two rings/+1 boots/Souldrainer
+5

+11 charms

= total +37 skills = L57 PSN dagger = @216,000 damage

%psn damage =

Perf griffon = 36%
Perf temp = 24%
Easily rollable = +2 amulet 14%
2x 10% rings = 20%
20 belt = 20%
Darkforce = 18%

= 132%

= 501,120 damage

Someone verify the math or let me know if I'm wrong. That's in perf gear.

Now the total pierce in perf gear is

-18% Griff
-40% Templar
-27% Dweb
-28% Darkforce
-20% Belt
-55% Lr
Whats max LR? Think it's 55ish.

= 188% pierce.

If you can justify adding the cloud back to the poison necro then you can probably get Blue to come back. Or add 10 stat paladins and maybe nerf oak to 1%.

Based on those numbers possibly with a little variable thrown in once everything is said and done in the next patch.. It doesn't make any logical sense to add the cloud back to the psn necro. Anyone who would disagree is completely unreasonable. Those numbers are by proof enough.

The only thing is if my numbers are wrong. I don't know. I've been wrong before so I'm not going to say I'm 100% right. Which is why I'm asking for a double check. I think it seems right though.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Gig is this you can have all the dmg in the psn striker you want if you can't hit that dmg is worthless... Then your just another trash killer with Nova...

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P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.

the numbers are still a bit high on psn strike yes. what if we nerfed the numbers a bit on psn strike but brought the cloud back? right now its pretty bad in spite of huge numbers from what i hear.

Why focus on 99lvl necs? If armg rw was 99lvl weapon noone would give a fuck. Can you do the math for 90lvl nec? or 85?

500k psn dmg is around 60k dps.
Meteo does 70k per hit. Firestorm 200-250k DPS?(3snaked and 3 per sec lasting 16 frames). Blizzard 45k per cast(who knows how many hits), lightning traps 1-59k x 5...
Plague zons before 95lvl AREN'T dmg wise OP. They're just too good because they throw "poison strike" and do damage regardless ele abs... I still have 120k plague zon that killed hell baal... 2nd this ladder.

Could lower tier 5 as other psn chars and bring cloud back!

Btw. Lee is a conspiracy theorist.

@Pious regarding Poison necs.

Well it sounds like the consensus from Steel is that PSN necs have an AR problem.

The ar problem can be addressed without adding the cloud back.

You can add flat ar to PSN strike or a higher AR bonus. You could give it a 1% life buff per level or other defensive mods which would allow the psn necro to get in a bosses face in melee range. So buffing psn strike on that aspect may be the route to go.

Based on Kevins psn reduction changes stating that pierce won't negate poison reduction on bosses anymore I believe the above route is probably best. It will require the psn nec to constantly in some form or way be in a bosses face to effectively kill it.

The cloud would be over kill. The damage is still high anyway though. I'd be afraid of how deadly a psn necro could be in a party with maxed bone armor bo/oak and the cloud added back.

Interesting discussion though.. I'd be interested to hear other opinions.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

yea i took a look at my zon on sp and the tier nerf did a number on her. if we did a nerf to strike that is similar but not quite as harsh i think we can handle psn strike. it is only a single target skill after all lee. lets not forget rabies is aoe, psn strike is ranged, and firestorm ofc no counters.

No need cloud back... Just ar boost I agree. You'll still have to deal with bosses block tho. And will never be allowed to run all facets gear. It's kind of cool to have high psn damage but some kind of risk when applying it... being impossible because you need 32k ar for hell diablo... isn't cool.

I'm a conpiracy theorist? I just gave you the numbers smartass. Do them yourself.

You stated the perf gear on a psn nec and were completely wrong. Throwing out little insults like calling me a 'conspiracy theorist' while I'm simply correcting where you were wrong is a tad bit childish don't ya think?

I simply stated obvious numbers.

And what about Javaons before 95? I didn't hear anyone bitching about Javaons being nerfed twinked would hurt them before 95. All the discussion was regarding Javas being OP which required them to be nerfed! If javazons are treated that way why the fuck would a psn necro be treated differently?

Fact is it's the highest PSN damage in game with the highest pierce. Btw keep the little insults to yourself next time.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

Yeah it is a single target skill. I do realize that. They also get the highest pierce though and the numbers are pretty high. Javazons and Rabies are getting psn re-work as well so a similar nerf is probably the best solution and adding the cloud back. Worst to worst.. could test it in SP before the patch is released.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

I only tested it at 104% Psn Damage Re -ran with what you gave it's 484-486k. Poison Mastery is funky math wise. Also running test with a 3 PnB 14 Ammy.

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lvl 1 amp is 32% okey.

I think I read somewhere that with the returning numbers of amp you wont be lowering the phy resistances of the bosses and the charms, is this true? So baal in hell will have 145%, diablo 130%, meph 130% and so on. So if you dont have access to a necro you wont be able to break the immunity of baal and you'll do a whopping 2% damage on meph and diablo.

So if you dont lower the resistance somewhere, then melee is still gona suck cook in hell...if you dont have a necro that is.

But I cant find the post saying that you wont be lowering the res so I could be wrong, so can someone confirm this?

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Its always in the last place you look....

I believe with CB gone we can go 95% phys router so you can choose - decrep or amp. Decrep reduces dmg and speed also, while amp only phys res. 130% = amp or bust.

@LockDown ahh really. Is it that funky? Didn't know.. that's interesting.. Hm. With a +3 psn n bone it'd probably be closer to 500k anyway.

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"Character is like a tree and reputation like a shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing."

That was with the 3 PnB sorry wasn't clear.

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