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 Post subject: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:19 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
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How are we planning to eliminate the insane abuse that is hydra?

- The top end damage is so obscene that it's capable of taking out 8-player act bosses in hell within 10 seconds alone. End game damage is somewhere close to 50k damage. Factor in that you can have 4 hydras each casting 3 times per second (roughly), you're looking at something thats roughly doing 600k damage per second from range.
- The range/safety of it is probably the bigger issue. To be able to cast hydras far off and kill everything before it gets into view, and on bosses not take any counters.

Proposal (all 3 should be done):
1) Cut overall damage by 40% or so
2) reduce max hydras per time to 3
3) Make hydra be casted at feet (like traps) -> this is the most important change.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:59 am 
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I've nerfed hydra to 2 summons instead of 4. Also, mraw nerfed mithia's crown +hydra.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:21 am 

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Sapphire Rawk wrote:
I've nerfed hydra to 2 summons instead of 4. Also, mraw nerfed mithia's crown +hydra.


I think this will make a good dent into it.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:04 pm 
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Sapphire Rawk wrote:
I've nerfed hydra to 2 summons instead of 4. Also, mraw nerfed mithia's crown +hydra.


Has the cast speed remained the same?

I'd pull for reverting back to bolt, giving a 25% damage nerf, but greatly reducing the cast delay.

This way it would still be on par with other sorc skills vs bosses, and would make it so FB doesn't rape large groups of monsters at once.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:09 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
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FuryCury wrote:
Sapphire Rawk wrote:
I've nerfed hydra to 2 summons instead of 4. Also, mraw nerfed mithia's crown +hydra.


Has the cast speed remained the same?

I'd pull for reverting back to bolt, giving a 25% damage nerf, but greatly reducing the cast delay.

This way it would still be on par with other sorc skills vs bosses, and would make it so FB doesn't rape large groups of monsters at once.


I think it got reverted to bolt + the changes that were mentioned above. I do think maybe with a 2 max summons, the cast delay could be removed/reduced a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:12 pm 
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The casting delay was reduced to 1 second by mraw.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 am
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1. reverted to fire bolts
2. 2 hydras instaed of 4 active
3. the duration is shorter, you will have to spam a bit more.

my hydra sorc atm can put out about 600k dmg end-game. the nerfs put it to a respectable 300k and make it a boss killing build rather and a destroy everything build. im honestly not sure if that was the right way to go, i'm more inclined to have gone the assasin trap route (cast at feet) because these "trap" skills are far too safe.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:21 pm 

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Pious wrote:

im honestly not sure if that was the right way to go, i'm more inclined to have gone the assasin trap route (cast at feed) because these "trap" skills are far too safe.


This i think is more important than the damage, because the ability to stand far away, not take any counters, and deal lots of damage (even 300k is a lot) makes it very safe. But that requires skill editing and not sure if that's too difficult/time consuming.

The cut down to 2 and the reduction of mithias is a good start though... that'll cut down end game damage by a good 60%.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 am
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i think the only real reason hydra shouldn't be cast at feet is that sins get the mighty claw block to basically ignore 70% of all spell dmg. sorcs are far squishier so hydra should likely just stay at-range cast.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:51 pm 
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So hydra will be the main dps? I personally think that nerf to hydra is WAY overboard.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:03 pm 

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FuryCury wrote:
So hydra will be the main dps? I personally think that nerf to hydra is WAY overboard.


It sounds like a lot, but there was no other skill that killed bosses faster than hydra other than maybe blaze. If you look at the duration nerf on blaze, that skill probably lost about 75-80% of its power, and it's a LOT tougher to use on a boss than hydra is.

When I get home, I'll try to gear up a hydra sorc and see if i can record a couple videos of it in action with only using 2 hydras instead of the 4.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:12 pm 
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2 patches ago hydra was the same as it is now cept bolt vs fireball. You could easily hit 40k hydra with this build. However, how many hydra sorc's did you see? 1-2 on the entire realm? You aren't only reverting hydra back to what it used to be, but you're also nerfing the raw damage numbers on hydra itself, and how many you can have up at 1 time. This means hydra is now doing 1/2 the damage it did when it was considered a sub-par build.

This is the equivalent of Blue's nerf to melee, completely overboard.

If the purpose of this is to make the hydra sorc a character that gets rushed then power lvled and is only used as a chant bitch, you have accomplished your goal.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:20 pm 

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FuryCury wrote:
2 patches ago hydra was the same as it is now cept bolt vs fireball. You could easily hit 40k hydra with this build. However, how many hydra sorc's did you see? 1-2 on the entire realm? You aren't only reverting hydra back to what it used to be, but you're also nerfing the raw damage numbers on hydra itself, and how many you can have up at 1 time. This means hydra is now doing 1/2 the damage it did when it was considered a sub-par build.

This is the equivalent of Blue's nerf to melee, completely overboard.

If the purpose of this is to make the hydra sorc a character that gets rushed then power lvled and is only used as a chant bitch, you have accomplished your goal.


Oh come on man, you made one yourself twice this patch and saw how powerful it was.

Just because there were only one or two hydra sorcs doesnt mean it was underpowered at all. It was just undiscovered.

If you think a sorc having 12 fireballs/bolts spitting each second or so each doing 40k+ damage is "fine", then other
Classes need a serious buff to compensate.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:41 pm
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muleofal wrote:
FuryCury wrote:
2 patches ago hydra was the same as it is now cept bolt vs fireball. You could easily hit 40k hydra with this build. However, how many hydra sorc's did you see? 1-2 on the entire realm? You aren't only reverting hydra back to what it used to be, but you're also nerfing the raw damage numbers on hydra itself, and how many you can have up at 1 time. This means hydra is now doing 1/2 the damage it did when it was considered a sub-par build.

This is the equivalent of Blue's nerf to melee, completely overboard.

If the purpose of this is to make the hydra sorc a character that gets rushed then power lvled and is only used as a chant bitch, you have accomplished your goal.


Oh come on man, you made one yourself twice this patch and saw how powerful it was.

Just because there were only one or two hydra sorcs doesnt mean it was underpowered at all. It was just undiscovered.

If you think a sorc having 12 fireballs/bolts spitting each second or so each doing 40k+ damage is "fine", then other
Classes need a serious buff to compensate.


I agree with Fury on this one. It was NOT undiscovered 2 patches ago. It was just not viable unless totally twinked 2 patches ago. I do think it was overpowered this last patch but it made people start using a build that was a basically non-existent before. This massive change that we are doing to HU is based off trying to bring other classes to viability. The old way we did things on previous patch changes was was trying to nerf shit to the level of other viable classes (i.e. blue's changes).

Trying to nerf things back to viability ends up having a build take a huge step backwards. This build needs a tweek. I think we should just move it to bolts from fireballs and see how it gets used. Just remember the goal is to move a build forward to viability. If you make changes such that it is not played anymore, then you have wiped away any advancements the build has made.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
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Hydra was also buffed by reducing it's AI delay in monstats.txt.
default AI delay was 15, 15, 15 (norm nm hell) frames before next attack
Delay was changed to 15, 10, 7 (norm nm hell) frames before next attack

33% DPS increase in NM, 108% increase in hell. (compared to norm dps).
Since counters are higher % chance in nm/hell, maybe switch the delay to 11, 11, 11, and change balls to bolts would be enough (and reduce counter spam at the same time)


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
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Delta wrote:
I agree with Fury on this one. It was NOT undiscovered 2 patches ago. It was just not viable unless totally twinked 2 patches ago. I do think it was overpowered this last patch but it made people start using a build that was a basically non-existent before.
I think we should just move it to bolts from fireballs and see how it gets used.


Changing it from bolts to balls didn't make a "once-useless" build into the strongest build in the game. It had other changes as well, I just can't remember what they were.

And while we are on the subject, changing it back from balls to bolts will still keep its insanely overpowered boss killing ability. That change does almost nothing in terms of the issue. In fact, changing it to fireball was BETTER for this build, as there are no other skills that have any AOE other than hydra, and it is a skill-point heavy build.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
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going from 7 frames to attack to 11 frames per attack reduces the damage per second by ~36%

1000 per bolt, 1 head:
77 frames at 7 frames per attack (3 seconds)
11000 damage
3666 DPS

77 frames at 11 frames per attack (3 seconds)
7000 damage
2333 DPS

(2333/3666)*100 = 63.63
100-63.63 = 36.37% reduction in damage (and counters) per second.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:20 pm 
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Back in 1.3 a lvl 47 hydra would do about 11k. It now does 24k and the only posted changed to hydra between then and how is a 15% tier 5 buff. It deserves more of a nerf than I am giving it.

(a 15% tier 5 buff gives it about 2k more dmg at that level, obviously someone buffed the shit out of hydra without saying anything)


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:25 pm 
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muleofal wrote:
FuryCury wrote:
2 patches ago hydra was the same as it is now cept bolt vs fireball. You could easily hit 40k hydra with this build. However, how many hydra sorc's did you see? 1-2 on the entire realm? You aren't only reverting hydra back to what it used to be, but you're also nerfing the raw damage numbers on hydra itself, and how many you can have up at 1 time. This means hydra is now doing 1/2 the damage it did when it was considered a sub-par build.

This is the equivalent of Blue's nerf to melee, completely overboard.

If the purpose of this is to make the hydra sorc a character that gets rushed then power lvled and is only used as a chant bitch, you have accomplished your goal.


Oh come on man, you made one yourself twice this patch and saw how powerful it was.

Just because there were only one or two hydra sorcs doesnt mean it was underpowered at all. It was just undiscovered.

If you think a sorc having 12 fireballs/bolts spitting each second or so each doing 40k+ damage is "fine", then other
Classes need a serious buff to compensate.


I'm trying to conceive the build as a whole. You are right, in the current state of hydra it rapes, it should be nerf....but how hard? All I did was give an example of how it used to be, vs how you want to make it.

We have to look at what makes hydra OP. First the raw damage....ok, give it a 25% nerf. Second was that hydra spitting out fireballs owned trash, ok revert back to firebolt. At this point, anymore of a nerf is killing the build.

If we take hydra as stated in the last paragraph, it has an ed AND aoe nerf, does it really need to be nerfed more?

A hydra sorc trying to solo Ancients Way will take 3-5x longer than it used to due to no aoe on its attack, added with the raw damage reduce atleast. I just fall to see how killing the build = balance.

We all know every build has its niche, hydra was good at everything last patch, do we have to make it so its good at nothing this patch? hence my Blue comment.

I appreciate all the work others are doing on this patch, however, making an OP build into a useless build defeats the purpose. We strive for a happy medium.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:31 pm 

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after talking a bit with purerage-dod and running the calculations, it turns out my hydra sorc that puts out about 50k listed damage which i thought was doing 600k dps is really doing over 3 million dps when you factor in the hydra ai delay.

i'm glad we got to take a closer look at it because that means it needs to be adjusted further. there is absolutely no way damage numbers like that can be justified.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:55 pm 

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FuryCury wrote:
muleofal wrote:
FuryCury wrote:
2 patches ago hydra was the same as it is now cept bolt vs fireball. You could easily hit 40k hydra with this build. However, how many hydra sorc's did you see? 1-2 on the entire realm? You aren't only reverting hydra back to what it used to be, but you're also nerfing the raw damage numbers on hydra itself, and how many you can have up at 1 time. This means hydra is now doing 1/2 the damage it did when it was considered a sub-par build.

This is the equivalent of Blue's nerf to melee, completely overboard.

If the purpose of this is to make the hydra sorc a character that gets rushed then power lvled and is only used as a chant bitch, you have accomplished your goal.


Oh come on man, you made one yourself twice this patch and saw how powerful it was.

Just because there were only one or two hydra sorcs doesnt mean it was underpowered at all. It was just undiscovered.

If you think a sorc having 12 fireballs/bolts spitting each second or so each doing 40k+ damage is "fine", then other
Classes need a serious buff to compensate.


I'm trying to conceive the build as a whole. You are right, in the current state of hydra it rapes, it should be nerf....but how hard? All I did was give an example of how it used to be, vs how you want to make it.

We have to look at what makes hydra OP. First the raw damage....ok, give it a 25% nerf. Second was that hydra spitting out fireballs owned trash, ok revert back to firebolt. At this point, anymore of a nerf is killing the build.

If we take hydra as stated in the last paragraph, it has an ed AND aoe nerf, does it really need to be nerfed more?

A hydra sorc trying to solo Ancients Way will take 3-5x longer than it used to due to no aoe on its attack, added with the raw damage reduce atleast. I just fall to see how killing the build = balance.

We all know every build has its niche, hydra was good at everything last patch, do we have to make it so its good at nothing this patch? hence my Blue comment.

I appreciate all the work others are doing on this patch, however, making an OP build into a useless build defeats the purpose. We strive for a happy medium.


I don't actually think the change back to firebolt is the issue (since the build has no AOE damage, I'd actually prefer it to keep its fireball). I think the problem is more in the amount of hydra heads it had and how fast each of them cast. Since it's able to be cast from afar and counters are directed towards a targetless hydra, having it cast 12 fireballs every second or so made it overpowered.

I do agree with you that overnerfing things isn't the way to go, and looking back at my original proposals, maybe that was too much of an idea for a nerf. But I think the real issue is 1) how the skill functioned, and 2) how quickly 4 hydras was taking demons out. I don't think that just reducing its damage changes anything to fix the issue... a hydra sorc killing bosses in 25 seconds rather than 20 seconds isn't any different... she still casting it from afar, not eating any counters, etc. That's why I don't agree with your proposal. But apologies if I came across abrasive.

I do think reducing hydra from 4 to 2 maximum out per time isn't the permanent solution either. I think something more along the lines of a trap assassin type casting (at feet) or even a recastable summon: a sorc can summon a 3 or 5 headed hydra that spits out fireballs and can be killed, and the skill itself has a 10 or 20 second cooldown for recast. This i think really digs into the heart of the issue with its safety. You can still cast it from afar, still deal a lot of AOE or single target damage, and still not worry about counters, but the hydra would be able to be killed.

With the current changes in 1.4 from Mraw (only reverting it to firebolts, no damage changes), I made a video against a 3-spawn Hatestorm with great but not 100% endgame gear. The sorc was putting out 30k hydras with 119 fire pierce. More in the video description, but ultimately the sockets could have all been changed to facets (they were vex runes for pierce only) and I could have had an anni, all 5 boss shards, and battle command for an extra 7 to skills. She takes out Hatestorm in 19 seconds (using all 4 hydra heads) which i think is still too fast for a character not 100% finished yet. IIRC, Dan's hydra sorc had about 50k damage, so I'm still well short of the mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAf3rJh ... e=youtu.be

I think the video shows that no matter a 10, 20, or 100 second kill time on bosses, the hydra sorc's safety is a more pressing issue.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:01 pm 
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Unfortunately the way hydra works it can't be cast at feet unless we replace the skill.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:27 pm 
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and having a duplicate skill (ie: another trap, but for sorc) is pretty lame imo

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:44 pm 
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To calculate hydra DPS:

(listed damage x (max #heads) x attacks per second)

Max heads = 12?
Listed damage = 40k?
Attacks per second = (25/AI delay) = ~2.27 (in hell)

40,000 x 12 x 2.27 = 1,090,000 damage per second before resists
=================================================

Damage after resists:
0 resist (max 99 pierce) = 1,090,000 DPS
-50 resist (max 149 pierce) = 1,090,000 X 1.5 = 1,635,000 DPS
-100 resist (convic/lr + some pierce) = 1,090,000 x 2 = 2,180,000 DPS
=================================================

Damage after Absorbs: (Act bosses, etc.)
Note, bosses usually have 40% absorb, but not always, we use 40% anyway. Non act bosses, and mini bosses will have between 20 and 30% absorb, so the multiplier would be 0.4 to 0.6 for those rather than 0.2 fo act bosses.

40% absorb is equiv of 80% resist (100 damage = (100-40)-40 = 20 damage received per 100 damage attack.

0 resist (max 99 pierce) = 1,090,000 x 0.2 = 218,000 (final) DPS
-50 resist (max 149 pierce) = 1,635,000 x 0.2 = 327,000 (final) DPS
-100 resist (convic/lr + some pierce) = 2,180,000 x 0.2 = 436,000 (final) DPS
=================================================

No idea how much DPS other jobs are doing, after resists/cast speeds/absorbs/bypass, but that's the numbers for hydra.
You can compare it to another skill by doing the same thing.

(Listed damage x (#missiles) x attacks per second) x resistances x absorb

Due to the way hydra works, even a slight adjustment can change the DPS dramatically.
For comparison, frozen orb fires 1 missile per frame in multiple directions, so they don't all hit 1 target. (due to direction increment, you can expect about 1/4 to 1/6 to actually hit if you get a good angle for the split on end nova)
Hydra fires 12 missiles every 11 frames (more than frozen orb), directly at a target.


Edit: Double checked hydra animation length and it's capped at 11 frames (the animation must finish), so it's currently at 11 frames/attack already.

Adjusting calcs above.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Once I saw the effects of what our fix to make the fireball thing actually work, I knew this day was coming. (it has only been correctly working for one patch people).

Just put it back to basically the way it was before this patch. I would rather it be single target. It worked pretty well. Not the fastest trash clearer by any means. Can be good at bosses.

Before, it was still a pretty good build. You had to play patiently, but was pretty safe (possibly still abusable).

By making only two heads and making it quick short life span you run into the fact that they take bloody forevever to fire.

There has been a really long and ardent discussion about hydra around 1.3b (was it by Wolf)? You may want to dig that up. It sucks that firing animation is capped at 11 frames, as the more burst type of damage would probably work pretty well.

The damage numbers people are using also assume that every bolt hits.
This is not even close to true, especially with fast moving/teleporting bosses (well Rage did mention it:) ).

Bosses now have 3 times the hit points (if traveling alone), and only few know what types of damages they are dealing now, and what changes to their skills have been made.

The issue with the fireball is in crowded areas where even a handful of hits can deal tremndous amounts of damage, or if you can get a wall neaby a boss (for both damage and/or damage mitigation).

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:04 am 
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muleofal wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAf3rJh ... e=youtu.be

I think the video shows that no matter a 10, 20, or 100 second kill time on bosses, the hydra sorc's safety is a more pressing issue.


An endgame sorc with -119 res and lvl 51 hydra vs a sub boss that's ment to be farmed.......I've seen bliz sorcs take him out faster, even seen fury druids and jabazon's do it faster, don't hear anyone crying for a nerf for them.

As for the safety, aren't maps getting changed so you can't cheese like this anymore? Again, you're changing the maps so hydra can't be abused like this, and then wanting to hit the build with the nerf stick because they can't cheese anymore?

This appears to be a witch hunt to me, and hydra is the suspected witch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

Thank you MP!

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:23 am 

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FuryCury wrote:

An endgame sorc with -119 res and lvl 51 hydra vs a sub boss that's ment to be farmed.......I've seen bliz sorcs take him out faster, even seen fury druids and jabazon's do it faster, don't hear anyone crying for a nerf for them.

As for the safety, aren't maps getting changed so you can't cheese like this anymore? Again, you're changing the maps so hydra can't be abused like this, and then wanting to hit the build with the nerf stick because they can't cheese anymore?


But it's not endgame and I stated that in my description. It's missing a solid 7-10 skills and 30-50% fire damage. I'm still around 18k damage short of a true endgame setup, which is a solid 40% overall damage im missing. My kill time would go down from 19 to about 11 seconds. That's a huge difference.

The other thing to consider is that regardless of the cheesing, the above can be replicated with a tank instead of a wall/map abuse. It makes no difference.

In terms of jabazons/fury druids, they should be dishing out more damage because they have to stand in front and take his hits, counters, etc. Also, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to kill him faster than the hydra sorc without the use of a big level amp from a necro. If I had a necro with a big level LR, you bet Hatestorm is falling within 10 seconds.

Blizz sorcs are in a similar boat to the melee builds, they still have to handle the counters. They SHOULD be dealing more damage, that skill doesn't have even 1/2 the actual safety or ability that the hydra sorc can do.

For a skill that's extremely safe as hydra, it shouldn't also get the most damage or even close to the most. That's the point I'm trying to make that seems to be falling on deaf ears. There should be a tradeoff between safety and damage. Look at a skill like Psychic Hammer - very safe skill (no counters), very easy to use (namelock), but the damage doesn't even come close to the kill speed of a hydra sorc. That's where hydra should be in terms of kill speed.

In any case, at this point it's up to the people making the changes to do what they please.


FuryCury wrote:
This appears to be a witch hunt to me, and hydra is the suspected witch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

Thank you MP!


Solid movie and I laughed pretty hard, great reference!


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:42 am 

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I thought of an idea and want to maybe put it out there for feedback as an actual counter to the hydra nerf. Effectively it would slightly change how the build was used, hopefully also changing the actual safety of the build and how it works but not reducing the builds overall damage:

What if we dropped Hydra to 2 hydra summons max and nerfed the mithias crown, lowered the cast delay to every 5 or 7 frames or so, but to counter the loss of damage, we would also:

- double the duration of hydra's current duration
- changed the firebolt synergies to be all with the hydra tree (no more meteor or fireball synergies but instead had enchant and maybe firemastery)


The way i see this change working is that now, becuase your hydras last longer, you can cast them and let them hit the boss while you now are able to cast your own firebolt at a boss. It seems that, if balanced correctly, it could end up having kill times somewhat similar but change the dynamic because now you have to cast your own skills and deal with potential counters. With a longer duration of hydra (let's say its 20 seconds), it would allow you to not worry about refreshing hydra very often, allowing the sorc to focus more on teleporting around and dodging counters while shooting off firebolt at the boss.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:47 am 
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Endgame hydra after nerf: 45k damage, 2 summons, 5 shots a second = 450k a second, not counting firebolt damage you can do for the rest of 7 seconds until hydra expires.

Endgame firewall after buff: 70k damage, 4 walls up at one time if you spam = 280k and you have no filler damage like hydra does but the build is also less points.

Two "counterless" skills that a sorc has and one does over 50% more than the other after nerf. Firewall has to have the boss on the screen so it's even more risky than hydra would be. Even though maps are being changed to prevent cheese that doesn't mean it's ok for hydra to be a top tier damaging build that is 50% better than other counterless/safe builds.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:42 am 
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Did anyone besides Fury and I actually use hydra sorc's before the fireball change?

Making a vid of something that is going to be fixed (wall abuse), and that many other builds can do faster is not a convincing argument. Druids, Pallies, other sorcs, zons can all do this at least as fast, with essentially minimal worries.

Having two summons with longer cast delay will make it so that rather than 40-50% hitting, about 15-20% are going to hit any boss that moves a millimeter. You are overkilling this skill. How many of you are actually going to walk through with one? Actually play it vs trash...not many...because it is slow, and quite a pain in the ass until you get to use the skill at all.

Play the build through on your own before taking basically end game farming vids and saying...see it broke.

Blizz should be more dangerous to use. You hit like a billion times in less than 2 seconds. and miss MUCH LESS OFTEN. It is meant to be a burst damage spell. Hydra (was) not. It is an extended damage spell. I would rather have less damage and more hydras that last a decent time. This is where it was before the last patch...just put it there again.

Changing maps, hps, skills of bosses, and nerfing the hell out of the skill all at the same time is not...what is warranted.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:58 am 

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kramuti wrote:
Did anyone besides Fury and I actually use hydra sorc's before the fireball change?

Making a vid of something that is going to be fixed (wall abuse), and that many other builds can do faster is not a convincing argument. Druids, Pallies, other sorcs, zons can all do this at least as fast, with essentially minimal worries.

Having two summons with longer cast delay - never mentioned this as a possibility, nobody said anything about a longer cast delay, just a longer duration. will make it so that rather than 40-50% hitting, about 15-20% are going to hit any boss that moves a millimeter. You are overkilling this skill. How many of you are actually going to walk through with one? Actually play it vs trash...not many...because it is slow, and quite a pain in the ass until you get to use the skill at all.

Play the build through on your own before taking basically end game farming vids and saying...see it broke. - I had one through the beginning of hell, it was insanely strong from level 50 on. I didn't need to see it through to the end to get an extra 15 skills and facets. And yet another person to ignore the fact that the video wasn't end game gear - i was short on end game damage by a good 18k (40%). Please read and assess the information before making your claims

Blizz should be more dangerous to use. You hit like a billion times in less than 2 seconds. and miss MUCH LESS OFTEN. It is meant to be a burst damage spell. Hydra (was) not. It is an extended damage spell. I would rather have less damage and more hydras that last a decent time. This is where it was before the last patch...just put it there again.

Changing maps, hps, skills of bosses, and nerfing the hell out of the skill all at the same time is not...what is warranted.


Some responses in bold above, others below.

It doesn't matter what it was before the patch, because it's not going back to that. That's a terrible argument. Just stop using it, it's irrelevant.

The blizzard thing is funny, because you hit no more than hydra does on a stationary boss, forget a moving boss. There are so many skills that miss often that are much weaker and cast much less often, stop with this argument as well... it makes no sense. Blizzard misses quite often if the boss is moving. If the boss is staying still? Then hydra wins on hits for sure.

Show me another build that can kill as quickly and not worry about any damage at all. I bet you you couldn't find more than a couple.

Again you missed my point about the wall or map thing being irrelevant. With a tank in there it makes no difference. Yet another point that makes no sense on your part.

Have you played the build in the current patch? Do you even play? Hydra was strong from the moment you start progressing through act 4 of normal. And it just gets exponentially stronger from there.

I have yet to see anything you have said to back up your claims. Other people have put up stats, numbers, videos, etc to show just how far it can be pushed. It sounds like you haven't even played a hydra sorc since it was changed.

And lastly, all of your arguments only pertain to a hydra sorc playing solo. You ever see if with a couple of other players?


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:15 pm 
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No I didn't play it this patch because, as i said before...i knew it was broke before anyone even got to level 36...i said so to several folks about it then.

You are right. I've given no numbers. Do what you will and see the skill vanish to the ether again. glhf.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:23 pm 

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eventually this skill is going to be cast at feet only like any other trap. i don't think theres enough time this patch to do it but i really believe its utility is being overlooked.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:27 pm 

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kramuti wrote:
No I didn't play it this patch because, as i said before...i knew it was broke before anyone even got to level 36...i said so to several folks about it then.

You are right. I've given no numbers. Do what you will and see the skill vanish to the ether again. glhf.


If the only changes that are being made are its maximum heads are set to 2 and mithias crown is being reduced to 2-3 instead of 5-7 hydra, then I will see what playing one is really like (permitted the time) in the new patch. I don't think these changes will be as bad as a nerf as people see them. It was the strongest skill damage wise in the game (other than blaze) and the safest skill in the game at the same time.

I do think that making its duration twice as long and rearranging the skill synergies on firebolt to be all the hydra tree would do it wonders. You lessen the dependance/strength of hydra but replace the lost damage with a strong single target firebolt. Hydra would retain its fireballs for the AOE aspect, since 2 hydras with firebolt and no other trash clearing skill on the build would be not enough for trash clearing. If you want pure safety, you would have to use just the 2 hydras and see a slower boss killing, but would never really worry too much about counters or being up close. If you want to dish out some damage, you would have to couple your hydras with firebolts, which would bring you a little closer to the action and also at risk to dealing with counters, but then a boss would be mowed down much more quickly. I truly think something like this would be a good compromise to the build.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Making the rest of the tree give synergies is a bad idea overall imo (it sounds great...and i wanted it personally for a long time...but). The issue becomes that you will essentially never use hydra until you have one thing on screen. Fireball will simply be the better choice vs trash. Coupled with only having two heads, it compounds the issue. Hydras have a setup time that most other skills do not. By the time you have two heads up, you will have been able to shoot a lot of aoe instead. The amount of time trash is on the screen compared to this makes hydra a nonused skill for the vast majority of time that you are actually clicking buttons. This is why I ask to simply put it back, and knock the damage some if needed. (i could care less if mythia's hydra was even taken completely away...that is simply not my argument). My argument is not about raw numbers, it is about playability of the skill.

As much as it sucks, it may be that to keep an actual hydra casting focused build, a trap version has to be made (if it will even work). I would rather see this because vs trash, you usually need to cast the hydra close by, and it helps terrain abusability. There is the point of sorc's having shit for life vs sins.

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:54 pm 

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kramuti wrote:
Making the rest of the tree give synergies is a bad idea overall imo (it sounds great...and i wanted it personally for a long time...but). The issue becomes that you will essentially never use hydra until you have one thing on screen. Fireball will simply be the better choice vs trash. Coupled with only having two heads, it compounds the issue. Hydras have a setup time that most other skills do not. By the time you have two heads up, you will have been able to shoot a lot of aoe instead. The amount of time trash is on the screen compared to this makes hydra a nonused skill for the vast majority of time that you are actually clicking buttons. This is why I ask to simply put it back, and knock the damage some if needed. (i could care less if mythia's hydra was even taken completely away...that is simply not my argument). My argument is not about raw numbers, it is about playability of the skill.

As much as it sucks, it may be that to keep an actual hydra casting focused build, a trap version has to be made (if it will even work). I would rather see this because vs trash, you usually need to cast the hydra close by, and it helps terrain abusability. There is the point of sorc's having shit for life vs sins.


The synergy is firebolt if i recall, the single target level 1 spell. That's why I advocated for the idea of having the tree synergize that, because then firebolt would be good for single targets, and if hydra kept its fireball aoe damage, it would be the trash killer and a secondary source of safe damage on bosses.

The trap idea i think is a great one but may be tough to implement. And yes you are right about the way sorcs are much squishier than sins in terms of at feet placement, that is an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:39 pm 
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I need to go to work, but please take a gander through this thread. Some of what we have discussed has been tested at least to some extent. Whatever gets done, gets done...cheers.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1769&start=20

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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:02 pm 

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kramuti wrote:
I need to go to work, but please take a gander through this thread. Some of what we have discussed has been tested at least to some extent. - Good read and some decent discussion in there. Almost 4 years ago, makes you think about how old this mod really is and how much of a change it has undergone.

Whatever gets done, gets done...cheers. - Agreed. Kinda anxious for the patch regardless.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1769&start=20


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 Post subject: Re: On the topic of the grossly overpowered Hydra
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:05 pm 
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Hydra gets fireball back since that part doesn't really affect bosses anyway. Damage nerf will not change.


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