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 Post subject: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:09 pm 
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1.3g item changelog
Edited: 6-16
still need to do crafts and runewords
Edited list with items changed. The initially proposed ones that aren't on this list were removed.
Sorry for formatting, this is a quick post.

UNIQUE ITEMS

BOOTS
-1. MarrowWalks
Level 33 Oskill Bone Prison -> +1-3 Oskill Bone Prison
+6-8 BoneSpear/DragonTalon -> +5-6
-13. StormTrek
Reanimate Slain as: Sand Warrior (10%) -> 5%
-37. ShadowDancer
-20% Reduced Requirements

GLOVES
-4. Draculs's Grasp
-Increased attack speed 20%

TORSO
-2. Que-Hagans
+1skills -> +2 all skills
+25% Enhance Defense -> +175-200%
+15 all resistances -> 15-20%
-8. ToothThrow
+4-6 teeth -> +3-4
-9. Wyrmscale
Reanimate Slain as: Devourer (5% lvl 5) -> Devourer young (5% lvl 10)
-19. Templers Might
no changes ***quoting Abominae
Quote:
I don't like nerfing Templars or Tyreal's sockets. Tyreal already loses out to War on a lot of melee builds. It only sees use on high strength builds and I feel they need all the love they can get. Sockets really do add a lot of options in how you build your character and I'd hate to see the two top armors lose that.

-20. Tyreals
Indestructible mod added back
-34. Skin of the flayed one
+2jave skills -> +1 zon skills
-35. SpiritForge
4 sockets -> 3 sockets

HELMS
-28. Crown of Thieves
100 mana -> add 2 sockets
-29. DragonHead
removed 12% ctc Meteor when struck -> reduced damage by 20-25
Fire absorb 2-5% -> Fire absorb 3-4%
-30. Nightwings veil
-2 light radius -> socketed 2
Cold absorb 2-5% - Cold absorb 3-4%
+1 Frost Nova oskill -> resist cold 30%
Steelshade
+3 CoS oskill -> socketed 2
resist all 20% -> resist lightning 30%

Changes on above three helms is intended to give a little more normalization between them, but not perfect mirrors. Having each have two sockets, giving res-all 20 to each seems really strong versus having it single element resist and having to attain at least some resists through jewels or runes. I
don't really see the points of putting nova/frostnova oskills when they would rarely be used unsyngergized.

-31. Andariels Visage
+2 all skills -> +3 all skills

SHIELDS
-5. DarkForge
+200% Enhanced Def -> +350%
+25 All Resists -> +30
+30% block chance -> 40%
+50% regen mana -> 75%

-7. Alma negra
reanimate 237 from 10% to 5%

RINGS
-15. Wisp ring
level 8 SoB -> level 12

AMULETS
-16. MetalGrid
level 8 SoB -> level 12
-17. Zakarum
+1-2 all skills -> +2 all skills

BOWS
-3. WindForce
***Need to look at still***
Don't really see why people say this blows. It's damage is above all others. Adding fire stuff for pally in no way solves this issue

SWORDS
-54. Plague Bearer
+1barb skills -> 30-40 reduced enemy defense on striking (dmg-ac)
-55. Doombringer
+2barb skills
-56. Sword of the Wanderer
+2-3 all skills -> +3 all skills
Titan Blade
+2-3 masteries (barb only) *this looks pretty weak comparitively to other high level swords, agree?

POLEARMS
-47. The Grim Reaper
+1 socket -> +2 sockets
-48. Blackleach Blade
+10% ias -> 30% ias
-49. Grim's Burning Dead
+3 nec skills -> +2 all skills
+3 Coprse Explosion -> 2 sockets
+3-4 Skeleton Mastery -> 20 life after demon kill
+3-4 Raise Seleton Archer -> 20 mana after demon kill
+3-4 Raise Skelton -> 15% faster run/walk
-50. The Reaper's Toll
+5 nec skill -> +3 druid skills
+12 bone armor oskill -> +6

STAVES
-51. Ribcracker
+150% enhanced damage
-53. Mang Song's Lesson
sorc's have to sacrifice a lot to use this as is. i understand the argument continually being made about only 1 95, but is it really that big of
a deal to have this? Would people rather it be moved to 90 and toned down just a touch? Still made for sorc's though
***note this does not have 6 sock and cb, we added a another item that did this i believe.**

SCEPTERS
-14. Hand of the Blessed light
+3 paladin skills -> +2
+2-4 holy bolt-> +2
+2-4 Fist of the Heavens -> +2

AXES
-39. Humongous axe
+30% ias (this is slow as snot as it stands)
-40. Warlords Trust
10%ias -> 30% ias (takes it from from 7 frame to 6 frame with no gems/jewels/runes. 6 frame to 5 frame attack for 20%ias from gems/jewels/runes using 56% bonus from werwolf. note it takes total of 65 WIAS to get to 4 fpa).
-41. Islestrike
no changes
adding 20%ias takes from 6fpa fury with 60%ias from gems/jewels/runes to 5 fpa to with 50%ias from gems/jewels/runes...70total. Used 56% from werewolf. Maul attack speed still blows chunks. If you want it for maulers, you need a different weapon...120% WIAS still gives you 6fpa maul.

MAULS/HAMMERS
-43. SteelDriver
+2 sockets
-45. The Gavel of Pain
+2 sockets

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:07 pm 
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I thought Jay specifically was referring to the drop rate of statues that HS drops?

Confuse: so, no more stacking with other curses? Meaning you can actually fight hell darkness while amped?! lol

I think maybe the synergies on geddon is the way to go. Spread the nerfs around the table from skill to skill that way its a harder hit to full caster druids (who need the nerf) and doesn't completely kill the trash clearing effectiveness of fclaws.

20% is a big nerf to hammers (unless they're getting the bypass, I didn't see that mentioned in the changelog)

Agree on the str being too high for s.dancers because I would seriously never get that much str on a sin. Maybe if the reqs getting lowered so much we need to re-visit the stats it's providing though...

I never really saw the issue with life tap on dracs... is life tap OP after the recent phys res changes? I thought it still was only used as a niche for letting your a1 merc tank/dps hell leo and stuff like that

I think bone necros are fine and won't even notice the toothrow change.

Just some thoughts as I skimmed through it.

EDIT: big props for putting this together kramuti

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Will edit the main post tomorrow. It looks atrocious. Will respond to comments then, too. Eyes are trying to close on me after food and maths.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:22 am 
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Warmth doesn't add the MDR from the skill as it says it does.

kramuti wrote:
-Confuse changed back to regular curse (There is still some question as to whether full curse immunity should be allowed, thoughts?)


This is mainly for the melee assassin, all other builds have to make major sacrifices to get CI.

kramuti wrote:
-Fist of the Heavens free bypass removed
-Sanctuary now adds damage to FoH similar (Same as Concentration and Blessed Hammers) OR make it so you need 20 in Sanctuary/Concentration to get bypass and lower higher tier Blessed hammer damage so that max damage is lowered by about 20%


Making FOH need 20 in sanc for the bypass should be plenty, with holy boly they already own undead. So, the aura won't make a meaningful difference to the build.

As for Hammers, the 20% nerf was if the bypass was added back. Hammers are most of the time being cast in melee range. Not near as safe as FoH.

kramuti wrote:
-37. ShadowDancer-30% Reduced Requirements (208 str for sins seems nuts am i missing something?)


What build would this be for? Any dtail, talon, or Dflight sin will being using adamant boots due to the superior damage. I've only found these boots to be useful on mercs because of the DR and FHR.

kramuti wrote:
-3. WindForce
Don't really see why people say this blows. It's damage is above all others. Adding fire stuff for pally in no way solves this issue


The reason for this, is that Eaglehorn always spawns eth. Eaglehorn does a couple hundred damage more on wep damage than a non-eth WF. It takes FOREVER to find an eth WF. Making Eaglehorn the endgame bow for 90% of physical bowazons. Can either make WF be eth all the time again, or remove the always eth from Eaglehorn. This would make it very hard for a physical zon to do decent damage until getting lucking and finding an eth of either of these.

If you want to think about a bow ment for other characters besides the zon, I would recommend Final Justice. This bow is hardly ever used as is.

kramuti wrote:
-53. Mang Song's Lesson
Sorc's have to sacrifice a lot to use this as is.I understand the argument continually being made about only 1 95, but is it really that big of a deal to have this? Would people rather it be moved to 90 and toned down just a touch? Still made for sorc's though


This was the case last ladder, but now the weapon is 13% CB with 6 sockets? Or is that because I'm using an old data folder?

If I'm wrong and it's still the same, why not leave it as is? Will have to get back to this one.

kramuti wrote:
Scepters
-14. Hand of the Blessed light
+2-4 holy -> +2
+2-4 Fist of the Heavens -> +2


Good idea! ATM, this wep at lvl 56 is just as good as the lvl 85 for a FoH paly. Could even stand to be +2 paly along with the other nerfs. A wep that can be used at the end of normal shouldn't be this powerful.

My lvl 86 paladin still keeps this wep in cube for boss fights instead of using insight.

kramuti wrote:
-42. Executioners Justice
kinda wary of changing from 80-100ias. it gets pretty high crushing blow, decrep, ITD resists, DR%. thoughts from others would be nice weapon speed is pretty slow though at 10


NO point in changing the ias. 80 ias on a barb hits max fps with ww, and a non-eth Justice with an ether hits 4fps fury with a druid. What more could you want?

kramuti wrote:
-46. WindHammer
kinda same worry about adding 10%ias to this for same reason as Exec Justice. suppose it doesnt get decrep on top of it, but 13% CB is pretty high to have 4fpa


Soulmancer nerfed the base speed of Tmauls just to nerf this weapon. Adding the 10% ias would mean a WW barb could hit 4fpa with an eth Tmaul. This was changed back when barbs could easily become CI and do 80K ww damage. As it is now with the physical resists and with the nerf to amp, I don't see why we couldn't undo the previous nerf and leave the wep as is, or just roll with 10% more ias. Wouldn't see this weapon being make or break being eth at 4fpa the way the game is now.

kramuti wrote:
-58. Jade Talon
+15% poison damage -> 25%
+15% poison pierce
lvl change from 60-70


I could easily make these OP on a venomsin, I'd say do either or. Either add an extra 10% poison damage, or add the -10% res. Not both.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Since I haven't played this ladder, my comments are only for the proposed skill changes since I've been asked to implement them.

Skill changes
kramuti wrote:
-Confuse changed back to regular curse (There is still some question as to whether full curse immunity should be allowed, thoughts?)
I'm not sure what changes occurred with this, or even if you guys are talking about the Necro's version of Confuse or the similar-graphic-curse used by monsters (I think this is "Cripple" in skills.txt). I believe some changes to curses were done via code-editing, so there might be nothing I can do for you here.
kramuti wrote:
-Poison javelin and Plague javelin no longer reset boss heal timer
No problem, I'll need access to missiles.txt. This change seems like a fair way to hinder these skills, although whenever I used them I always used LightningBolt (it doesn't miss) to get a boss' heal-timer started so I expect some people won't notice the difference.
kramuti wrote:
-'Geddon damage by ~20% either through synergies or directly
No problem, just choose one of these options. It was posted somewhere that changing via synergies would hinder FClaw builds less, which is desired.
kramuti wrote:
-increase higher tier damages of fissure, molten boulder, and volcano (fissure/volcano possibly through reducing nextDelay)
No problem, just choose one. I'll need access to missiles.txt to adjust nextDelay. I'll need some specifics for how much to improve the higher tier damage (either tell me how much damage it should do at some high level with some %Mastery and %Synergies, or just tell me to raise it by some %. Also tell me if you mean Tier3 to Tier5 or something else).
kramuti wrote:
-Shiver armor and Chilling Armor 1%DR every 2 base levels (max 10% each, or maybe 1/4 lvls if this is seen as too much)
So both skills can give you around 10%DR max, for total of 20% right? No problem, just let me know if it should be 1/2 capped at 10, or 1/4.
kramuti wrote:
-Shockwave range increased by 20-25% (proposed 50% is too far imo, with maul and shockwave and act5 merc damn near everything will be stunned that doesnt have boss/champion flag)
I still haven't tested this, but it shouldn't be a problem. I agree that any change above 33% should be considered carefully, since they're not subtle. Since most monsters run to you pretty quickly, I honestly don't think this change will mean much to most players. Just don't increase the range so much that SWave becomes the new Multishot.
kramuti wrote:
-Fist of the Heavens free bypass removed
No problem, this should just be the "holy" flag-byte in missiles.txt
kramuti wrote:
-Sanctuary now adds damage to FoH similar (Same as Concentration and Blessed Hammers) OR make it so you need 20 in Sanctuary/Concentration to get bypass and lower higher tier Blessed hammer damage so that max damage is lowered by about 20%
If you want Sanctuary's FoH buff to be active only when the aura is active (like Concentration's buff to BHammer), then it should be possible, but awkward (it's essentially the same as MagicMastery I described recently). I do not think it's possible to adjust the "Holy" flag via skills.txt. It's no problem to reduce BHammer's higher tiers by 20%, just let me know if you mean Tier3 to Tier5 or something else.
kramuti wrote:
-Iron Golem thorns damage increased to values between 1.21z and 1.3f[/quote
No problem, but the only version I have access to is 1.3b, so I might need someone to tell me what Thorns% is desired.
kramuti wrote:
-Dragon Tail enhanced damage per point increased to 15% from 11%
No problem. I'm surprised that DTail needs a buff, since it's multiplicative effect with TigerStrike is pretty powerful.
kramuti wrote:
-Telekinesis range increased due to high res change (psychic hammer works fine TK should too)
No problem, but let me know by what % to increase it (maybe 100%?). PHammer is quite different from TK in skills.txt, and in general the Assassin and Druid skills are more hardcoded, so it can be hard to make similar-looking skills behave similarly. For example, Valk and Shadow-summons seem similar, but as far as I can tell, Shadows can not receive mods from their auraStat and passiveStat fields like all other summons.
kramuti wrote:
-Spirit of the Barbs: add poison resist to spirit in hell so retains immunity as in all other difficulties
No problem, but I will need access to monstats.txt. If I add the poisRes via skills.txt, then I'm not aware of a method of not applying it in Norm and NM. I suppose since it's supposed to be immune, then this isn't a problem (it'll just have around 200% pois res in Norm and NM and 100% in Hell, but in any case it'll be immune).


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
kramuti wrote:
-Dragon Tail enhanced damage per point increased to 15% from 11%
No problem. I'm surprised that DTail needs a buff, since it's multiplicative effect with TigerStrike is pretty powerful.
kramuti wrote:


Was a typo, it's dragon talon. Dtail is pretty beefy already. That's why the ED buff to talon and not a buff to the base damage of boots themselves.

As for TK, 2x would be 30 or 40? I'd say 30 would be fine. The problem is you can see a monster on screen and not be able to hit it because the range is so low. Just enough to make it go to the edge of the screen. Maybe the same range as fireball/lightning?

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 7:28 pm 
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Edited for readability. Prolly not going to be able to go through the feedback til tomorrow honestly. Today has kinda gone to crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:39 pm 
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FuryCury wrote:
Was a typo, it's dragon talon. Dtail is pretty beefy already. That's why the ED buff to talon and not a buff to the base damage of boots themselves.
I'll keep the DTalon/DTail confusion in mind if the final set of changes I am told to implement still includes DTail. I agree that a buff to DTalon rather than boots is a good way of not overpowering DTail.
FuryCury wrote:
As for TK, 2x would be 30 or 40? I'd say 30 would be fine. The problem is you can see a monster on screen and not be able to hit it because the range is so low. Just enough to make it go to the edge of the screen. Maybe the same range as fireball/lightning?
The ideal information for me would be a % increase, since I can not play the hi-res version, so I can't tell how short TK appears for everyone. The range value for FBall and Lightning work differently from TK, since TK is quite a unique skill (picks up items, doesn't launch a missile yet still has knockback, etc). I suppose if the speed and duration of those missiles haven't changed, then I could calculate the distance they would cover and give that to TK, but I'd rather have a %increase :)


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Then I'd have to say a 50% increase. Just want to be able to hit a monster in sight, not be able to tk a monster further than a screen away.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
kramuti wrote:
-Poison javelin and Plague javelin no longer reset boss heal timer
No problem, I'll need access to missiles.txt. This change seems like a fair way to hinder these skills, although whenever I used them I always used LightningBolt (it doesn't miss) to get a boss' heal-timer started so I expect some people won't notice the difference.


i think one of the main concerns brought up was people being able to solo LoS by simply kiting. Being required to throw a light bolt + plague jav may make it harder (if not impossible) to do that anymore. Unless people were already doing it this way?

Brevan wrote:
Geddon damage by ~20% either through synergies or directly No problem, just choose one of these options. It was posted somewhere that changing via synergies would hinder FClaw builds less, which is desired.


It was me that said that, and I'll admit to being biased toward fclaw because I love to play them, but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks too. I do agree geddon could use a nerf, fclaw will feel it either way

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Edited helms, rings (wisp), and amulets (metalgrid) And finished thought on templars armor...for clarity it seems that it and tyrael's are meant to be good for caster/melee. removing sockets only on one seems weird.

Will hopefully get to sit down and look at feedback stuff this evening.
Oh and changed Dtail to Dtalon in the list

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:36 pm 

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Overall looks like some positive changes. About time Hagens gets some love, been lobbying for that the last 2 patches, was horribly underwhelming for what it was. From another thread. Here's an idea for a few hats. Sadly, working 11+ hours per day and 6 days leaves me little time to play.

kwikster wrote:
I've been looking at some items and will offer up a few ideas as I think of them. Here's a few to start off with. Suggested changes will be shown in red.
Dragonhead
Hydraskull
+3 to Fire Skills
+200% Enhanced Defense
Damage Reduced by 2-5%
-10% to Enemy Fire Resistance
+12-16% to Fire Skill Damage
Fire Absorb 2-5% 3-4
Fire Resist +30% 20 all res
Socketed (2)
12% Chance to Cast Level 30 Meteor when Struck
12% Chance to Cast Level 30 Meteor when StrikingNo need for both remove one
Maybe add 20-30 mdr instead
Reanimate Slain as: Swamp Dweller (5%)

Steelshade
Armet
+2 to All Skills
+400% Enhanced Defense
Resist All +20%
Lightning Absorb 3-4%
Adds 1-1000 Lightning Damage Damage reduced 2-5%
-10% to Enemy Lightning Resistance
+12-16% to Lightning Skill Damage
12% Chance to Cast Level 30 Chain Lightning when Struck
NOTE: site wrong has 2% ctc cloak of shadows when struck currently
Damage Reduced by 20-30
Magic Damage Reduced by 20-30
+100% to Attack Rating socketed 2
+3 to Cloak of Shadows (OSKILL) +1 to nova (Oskill)

Nightwing's Veil
Giant Conch

+2 to All Skills
+200% Enhanced Defense
Damage Reduced by 2-5%
Cold Absorb 2-5% 3-4
Cannot be Frozen
+12-16% to Cold Skill Damage
-10% to Enemy Cold Resistance
+30% Faster Hit Recovery all resist 20
Slow Enemies 10% 12% Chance to Cast Level 30 Blizzard when Struck
-2 to Light Radius socketed 2
+1 to Frost Nova (OSKILL)
Requirements -33%
This would bring these hats more in line with each other, give them a bit more usefulness. I can't imagine why a lite skill hat (Steelshade) has ctc and Oskill CoS both on it.


EDIT: I know a psnzon that used Steel shade for the CoS to break several immunes in various areas, don't work on bosses, but can on Moloch in norm/nm IIRC. Found it odd, a hat for lightning toons, had no lightning based skill on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 4:58 pm 

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As to FoH and the sanc change, would that bump FoH dmg or the bolts dmg? Are hammers really that good vs bosses that they need a tweak? Their range is relatively small, and last check only undead bosses resist was bypassed. Which is very few. I'd still venture to say one sure way to reduce FoH dmg is removal of medi from Hwill and returning it to purity. That would force FoHers to need a source of medi or an assload of blues/purples to keep mana up. Would also stop heal barbs (aka bo bitches) from being parked off to the side during boss fights as I used to see a lot. Even though their heal pulses didn't do a great deal by themselves, staked prayer via a Foher/healer and their stacked medi meant extremely fast mana regen.

Don't agree with the dr change to sorcs, they have tele, FA,CA, and SA. Outside of the odd melee sorc they shouldn't really need additional dmg mitigation. Dr can be had from many sources especially late game.

The change to psnzons is debatable, I know the logic, but it will certainly require some testing to be sure it doesn't overly gimp them. As is boss plr gimps their dmg to a point and with LR a shell of what it was, even with high pierce you have little chance of dropping it to zero anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 5:42 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Don't agree with the dr change to sorcs, they have tele, FA,CA, and SA. Outside of the odd melee sorc they shouldn't really need additional dmg mitigation. Dr can be had from many sources especially late game.


this idea was specifically for f.nova sorcs, who are useless right now. Maybe others would give them more damage, but since f.nova seems like the tanky cold sorc build, this would play along those lines. Sorcs don't typically get enough str to get the big DR% items, especially late game. F.nova is practically a melee skill, pretty close to warcry's range. I want to see f.nova's actually fighting at bosses and potentially being an off-tank, not standing to the side casting fa on people. Let's hear some other suggestions if you don't like the change, unless you're saying you think f.nova is a good build right now?

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:20 pm 
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i like the idea about dr % on chill and shiver armor

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:04 pm 

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TBH, never played a nova sorc, cold or light. Forgot about that build. The only thing is many will shift from FA to either CA or SA simply for the additional dr with leftover skill points. In the case of making for the dr from those skills it should be hard points only then. Perhaps it could be tied in similar to how strategy was done on the zon, if hard points placed in any other skill, except cold mastery, the dr is canceled out. I'm just trying to keep other sorcs from working to add easy dr on builds where they're not in melee range all the time. Such as meteor and lite builds.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:46 pm 
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I really like the A5 mercenary change. The form shifting was always annoying and could often lead to your merc dying.

I don't mind the DR for Shiver/Chilling. It's a hefty enough investment that no other sorc build can afford it and getting DR on a Frost Nova sorceress always comes at the expense of other really important stats (block, resists, pierce). I'm assuming this functions only with hard points.

I don't like nerfing Templars or Tyreal's sockets. Tyreal already loses out to War on a lot of melee builds. It only sees use on high strength builds and I feel they need all the love they can get. Sockets really do add a lot of options in how you build your character and I'd hate to see the two top armors lose that.

Stealskull doesn't need a buff, but +1 assassin skills isn't going to make or break anything. It's really a great helm, I used it on pretty much every melee character and melee mercenary the moment I could. Dual stats and dual leech are really good for quite a couple builds at the stage you find it. If you really wanted to buff it, I'd just increase the stats a bit. 10-20 instead of 10-15 or something along those lines.

I wouldn't mind if Weaken was removed from Corpsemourn. But if that was done I'd really like to see a Weaken proc on Dracul's Grasp. Weaken is a pretty interesting curse for some bosses and less powerful teams. Also a really nice mercenary proc.

The skill stuff is cool. Some of the item tweaks I don't agree with, but they are primarily the ones that have comments of hesitation attached to them. A lot of them are really nice fixes though (thank god for +2 Zakarum amulet). Probably write a bit more later.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:36 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
TBH, never played a nova sorc, cold or light. Forgot about that build. The only thing is many will shift from FA to either CA or SA simply for the additional dr with leftover skill points. In the case of making for the dr from those skills it should be hard points only then. Perhaps it could be tied in similar to how strategy was done on the zon, if hard points placed in any other skill, except cold mastery, the dr is canceled out. I'm just trying to keep other sorcs from working to add easy dr on builds where they're not in melee range all the time. Such as meteor and lite builds.


exactly, hard points only. I thought spreading the dr% between 2 of the armors would be enough to prevent it from being easily accessible for other sorc builds to get. Are there any other sorc builds out there that would still work with 40 skill points spent? I'm not opposed to your idea though, as I really just wanted this to give f.nova sorcs some love.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 12:15 am 
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I am going to let this go for a bit longer before rehashing things. I will get files to you tomorow Brevan, if you could even clean up the borked entries over the next week or so, that would be a huge boon. I will try to nail down specifics during that time for skills. I know I was kinda vague on them.

I would like to see a discussion on the damage values of the other fire druid skills. How UP/OP are the ones other than 'geddon?

A lot of good points have been raised by everyone. Including making sure we don't forget about the Hwill issue. :O

Edit I do apologize for saying 'tomorrow' too often. Life is kicking my ass at the moment. I was supposed to be on vacation!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am 

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It's all good Kramuti. I wish to thank all ahead of time for the time and effort to keep this great mod growing.

Slappy, not saying many sorcs have an extra 40 points to spend, just that instead of using FA some will use either CA or SA for the extra dr over defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:37 am 
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Here is the current state of the skill changes. I haven't gotten around to confirming some of the changes, but most are pretty trivial. I've been asked to repair some of the issues with skill descriptions, so will likely put off testing until I can test both sets of changes at once.

1) Confuse curse changes
- No changes. Someone needs to speak up about what needs to happen with this.

2) Poison javelin and Plague javelin shouldn't start boss heal-timers.
- Their missile's GetHit flag is now zero. Previous testing shows that this will have the desired effect, but I'll double check when I can.

3) 'Geddon damage reduced by about 20%.
- All synergies were changed from 16% to 12%, base damage is unchanged. This reduces damage by 19.0% if one synergy was maxed, and 23.5% if all five were maxed.

4) Increase higher tier damages of fissure, molten boulder, and volcano.
- No Changes. If no one can describe the amount to adjust this by, then I'll increase their Tier5 damages (phys and/or fire) by 15%.

5) Shiver armor and Chilling Armor 1%DR every 2 base levels.
- Each skill now has +%DR = baseLevel / 2 * 1%
- I've not yet updated the skill descriptions, but I noticed they refer to DR/MDR that doesn't exist.

6) Shockwave range increased by about 25%
- The missile's range is changed from 14 to 17 (21% buff), so if it used to travel 1/2 of the screen, then it's now closer to 2/3rds.

7) Fist of the Heavens free bypass removed.
- The missile's Holy flag was '2', and is now cleared (like most other missiles).
- The HolyBolts produced still have a Holy flag of '3', just like HolyBolt, so ignore Undead resistances.

8) Sanctuary adds damage to FoH (like Concentration to Blessed Hammers).
- No Changes. Poor wording on my part caused me to receive states.txt rather than ItemStatCost.txt, which I'll likely receive by this Sunday. My goal is to create a new stat which will be given to the Sanctuary state while the aura is active. I'll revise the synergy calculation of Sanctuary so that it treats the new stat like MagicMastery, which is essentially what Concentration does for BHammer. Note that your allies's FoH will not benefit from your Sanctuary aura the way that their BHammers benefit from your Concentration. That should be possible, but I think it would require a party-friendly aura like BlessedAim.
- Someone needs to decide how much of a boost FoH should receive from Sanctuary aura. For example, Concentration's boost to BHammer is 45% +5%/lvl (300% at lvl 50). If Sanctuary gave the same boost, would people want the base skill damage decreased at all? It's alright to just tell me if at lvl 50 you want FoH to do 4x it's current damage, or 1.5x (this will be with Sanctuary active, and no bypass).

9) Iron Golem thorns damage increased to values between 1.21z and 1.3f.
- No Changes. It's currently 90% +30%/lvl, in 1.3b it was the same. Someone needs to recommend a value, otherwise I'll just guess that 1000% + 30%/lvl is good (2500%Thorns at lvl 50). Thorns sort of auto-scales itself with enemy damage, so I don't see a big reason for it to change a lot. Last I knew, enemy phys resistance made thorns pretty unimportant end-game, but I suppose the easy Amp of a Necro could make this change worthwhile.

10) Dragon Talon enhanced damage per point increased to 15% from 11%
- Done. Kind of surprised to see that DTalon's %ED is hardcoded to be linear (many skills allow any formula), so I don't think adding synergies to this skill will be easy if that's desired in the future.
- There was a bug in the skill description. The skill gives lvl/4+1 kicks, but the description was showing lvl/5+1. I've changed the description to just refer to the skill's value, rather than copy-paste a formula.

11) Telekinesis range increase (+50%)
- Done. I've changed par1 from 24 to 36.

12) Spirit of the Barbs add poison resist to spirit in hell so retains immunity as in all other difficulties.
- Considering this spirit only has 50% pois res in Norm, I'm guessing the immunity came from it's own aura being applied to it. In NM it has 33% Pois res, so perhaps it's aura was stronger when people were checking. In Hell it had 25%, which might have been chosen strictly because the aura is capped at 75%, making it very hard for the spirit to become immune. I've set it's Hell PRes to 33%, so if it were immune in NM, it'll still be immune in Hell. Note that this type of immunity is probably pierceable by enemies (e.g. Hell Andy has 50% PiercePoison). Note that when I was experimenting in changes to HU for my own benefit, I found that some sources of poison damage (such as maggot spit) actually do physical damage despite shading you green. If your spirit is still getting poisoned to death by trash, take a note of what critters keep killing it.

<edit> When the skill description doesn't match what the skill does, would people like me to change the skill or it's description to match? For example, the skill Strategy is described as giving DR/MDR, but the skill doesn't do that. Do people want it to have this buff, or should I clean the description to show only what it's doing? There are likely several skills with this problem. </edit>


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:53 pm 
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I will be busy tomorrow basically all day. Sunday I should be able to sit down and fill in some of the things you have not yet done. Even the ideas that you had off the cuff seemed fine at a scan.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:31 pm 
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I've made a pass through skilldesc.txt to replace copy-pasted formulas with references to skills.txt. The benefit of this is that in the future changes made to skills.txt will automatically be reflected in the skill descriptions, but moving stats around would not (so if a mod is given in passivestat1 then it needs to stay there, and not be moved to passivestat2). There are many instances where the formula shown in the skill description is not the same as what the skill was actually doing. I've made a list of the easily-explained issues. I need people to tell me if they want the skill updated to match the description, or the description updated to match the skill. For the hard to explain issues, I intend to change the skill to match the description (at least you will get what you thought you were getting).

Note that blvl = base skill level (hard points) while lvl = level after +Skills.

1) Strategy - Should this have DR/MDR if no points in Dodge/Avoid?
2) Amp - 38% +1%/blvl +1%/2lvl, or 38% to 90% with diminishing returns
3) SkellyMage - Should these gain +12%HP +8%HP/lvl?
4) Decrep, -33% or -33-blvl/2% ?
5) LowerRes - Should this be 14% to 90% with diminishing returns, or same as Amp?
6) SkellyKnight - +15HP/lvl or +15%HP/lvl from SkellyMastery?
7) Smite - Should this have 1%DR/blvl?
8) BlessedAim - Should this have 1%LLeach/lvl?
9) Fanatacism - Should this have 10% +2%/blvl Critical Strike?
10) Conviction - Should this be 14% to 90% with diminishing returns, or same as LRes?
11) Salvation - Should Absorbs be 10% or 1%/blvl?
12) Berserk - Should Defense be reduced by 100% or (100-5*blvl)%
13) SWolves - Should max SWolves be 6 or 2+(lvl/5)?
14) HoWolverine - Should this give 1%DR/blvl?
15) SoBarbs - Should this give 1%Absorbs/2blvl?
16) Armageddon - Should duration have a Fissure synergy (2sec/Lvl)?
17) Hurricane - Should duration have a CycArmor synergy (2sec/Lvl)?
18) CMastery - Should this have a 10% Venom AR synergy?
19) Fade - Should %DR be 1%/lvl or 1%/blvl

I'm not sure why there were so many differences between what the skill was doing and what the description showed, but hopefully this type of issue will not occur easily in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:16 am 
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decrep starts at 20%
amp cant get higher than 70%
havent seen lower res higher than 5x%
dunno if you want to buff it to 90 ?

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:42 am 
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Kannli wrote:
amp cant get higher than 70%
havent seen lower res higher than 5x%
dunno if you want to buff it to 90 ?
Thanks for responding Kannli. I didn't post suggestions, I was just posting errors in the files and asking people to tell me which version of reality they wanted. In the files I was given, AmpDamage went well above 70% (capped at 90%), but the description was incorrect, so it would have told you that Amp was actually lower and that hard points were different from soft points. The other 19 skills I mentioned above are similar situations.
Kannli wrote:
decrep starts at 20%
The files I have show it at 33% without progression, and the description file I received originally showed it as 33% and gaining +1% per two hard points. I'm not sure why people wouldn't have seen that last ladder in the skill description. I can change it from 33% to 20% (skill and description) if that's what people thought it was doing, but I still have no idea what kind of progression people expect (either no progression, or maybe 1%/2blvl?).


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:51 am 
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for decrep its 20% and 0.5% a hardpoint as of now. dont know of anyone maxing it.

for fade its 1% dr a hardpoint and hardpoint only.

mana // life after kill doesnt work with traps , could that maybe be solved ?

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:46 am 
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Excellent, Decrep and Fade oddities resolved, but many more issues to go.
Kannli wrote:
mana // life after kill doesnt work with traps , could that maybe be solved ?
I've never seen a solution for this. Traps work simply as ranged monsters that don't move, when they are created your character passes the trap's level to the trap to be used as the skill level of the trap's skills. You even pass it skills that are needed to synergize itself. Skeleton mages are pretty similar. I'm aware of no feature that tells the game that a SkellyMage should benefit from life per kill, but a trap should pass that life to their controller. I suppose playing around with Blood Golem, Carrion Vine, or Solar Creeper might end up with a solution, as those are the only summons that manipulate their controller's HP/MP. Since so few summons have that feature, it's probably a hard-coded non-transferrable feature. Similarly, BladeSentinel can inherit its controller's CriticalStrike stat, but I know of no other summon that does this.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:14 pm 

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Brevan wrote:
11) Salvation - Should Absorbs be 10% or 1%/blvl?

Presently it's 1%/blvl for each aura, res cold, lite and fire. Unless this was changed. Thus atm it's virtually useless. IMHO, it should revert to 10% sorb flat. That got change for 1.3a and never fixed after that. I mean, as is SoB gives better sorbs for far fewer points spent and until recently had no sorbs whatsoever. Just my 2 cents here.

Brevan wrote:
12) Berserk - Should Defense be reduced by 100% or (100-5*blvl)%
Pretty sure it should be (100-5*blvl)% as it reduces defense penalty as more points are added in. One point should equal 95% defense reduction and 20 points meaning zero defense reduction when using zerk.

Geddon and Cane both get the (2sec/Lvl) synergy afaik.

Looks good Brevan, nicely put.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:10 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
...Salvation should revert to 10% sorb flat. ...SoB gives better sorbs for far fewer points spent and until recently had no sorbs whatsoever. Just my 2 cents here.
...Berserk should be (100-5*blvl)%
...Geddon and Cane both get the (2sec/Lvl) synergy
Each of the 19 skills I mentioned above was listed because it wasn't doing what it's description stated. I'm pretty sure I've been given the correct files to work with, but if that's the case then there were many cases of people playing with placebo effects. For example, SoBarbs doesn't give absorbs, but it's description says it does. Similarly, Salvation gave 10% absorb all, but the description erroneously mentions synergies with the res-auras. The point you raise regarding the balance between SoBarbs, Salvation, and the skill point investment for %Absorbs causes me to consider that perhaps none of the options I see in the files is the best solution.

I can understand why Salvation's 10% absorbAll was removed, since for 1 skill point you got that with resAll, making all 3 ResAuras pretty ineffective (albeit still better for their element). How do people feel about Salvation giving 5% + 1%AbsorbAll for every 4 points into any res aura, i.e.
%Absorbs = 5 + (resFire.blvl + resCold.blvl + resLtng.blvl) / 4.
The benefit is that if you maxed one ResAura (to synergize a HolyAura I guess), then you'd get 10% absorbAll rather than 20% absorb for the element you already have 20% absorbs for (via ResAura). If for some reason you maxed 3 ResAuras, then Salvation would give 20% AbsorbAll. If people like this solution, then please speak up soon.

For SoBarbs, I might need to do some research into what's possible. Since it's a summon that's using the skill, I don't think I can use the skill's base level (Summons are simply assigned a skill level at which to use their skill). An easy solution might be to give the aura a diminishing returns formula, i.e. absorbAll goes from 0% to 10%. If I use this formula, it'll be 5% Absorbs at lvl 10, and 10% at lvl 40. I think that progression will bring the absorbs close to the skill point investment needed by the Salvation solution proposed above. The default dm formula from Blizzard would yield 5% at lvl 5 and 10% at lvl 40, so is probably too strong at low levels (yet another "1-point wonder"). If people like that diminishing returns formula I linked to, and agree that capping it at 10% by level 40 seems fair, then please speak up soon. Another easy solution might be 5% absorbAll (no change with level). SoBarbs might be too strong early (similar to thorns + cleansing + salvation, and all from a summon), but nice and modest later.

Thanks kwikster for the correction for Berserk, Armageddon, and Hurricane. Can anyone currently playing a high-level Berserker Barb quickly confirm that Berserk with many hard points does not reduce defense by 100%? If I've received the correct files to alter, then Berserk's skill description should state that it won't reduce defense, but the character screen will show a 100% reduction (defense will briefly go to zero).


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:58 pm 
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To the best of my recollection.

1. No
2. 38% +1%/blvl +1%/2lvl but i thought 38 was supposed to be lower?
3. Don't recall but there was a point made about survivability (they are archers now and I don't know if this helped survivability in general)
4. -33-blvl/2% ? but I thought it started lower (more positive value like -25)
5. Same as amp
6. likely 15%. 15 per level would be shit life for a single summon, no?
7. yes. doesn't duriel have this? is why he could/can? be phys immune past norm (hidden)
8. i think dew tried set this up to only work when the aura is off. is kinda weird imo but i understand you don't want to give it to everybody.
9. i think this was setup by blue when we were trying something in 1.3a or b. It probably should be removed at this point since melee seems ok. Anyone disagree?
10. same as LRes
11. was supposed to be 1%/blvl? but i do like your idea after the points raised. seems like a happy medium. Agreement?
12. (100-5*blvl)%
13. 2+(lvl/5)
14. yes.
15. was supposed to be yes. but again like your idea
16. answered
17. answered
18. answered
19. 1%/blvl

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:10 am 
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Confuse: several have argued that should go back to regular curse. issue with CI from other classes are said to have been fixed via past changes.

fissure, molten boulder, and volcano.: 15% to tier 5 seems a good start. lower level damages are fine until late NM imo.

Shiver armor and Chilling Armor:
ya i noticed the no DR/MDR too. is one of the many things that caused me angst at how fucked up these files had become.

Sanctuary adds damage to FoH
sending the itemstatcost to you when this is done.
probably best to make people rely on their own aura for boost.
I think with boost, extra damage is overkill. we probably need to be really careful with boost alone, and make sure that we don't make it better than bypass on its own.
i say forget bypasses at lvl 20.

Blessed Hammer
Are hammers viable at the moment? I know FuryCury's argument that maybe they should get bypass since have to be close, but the pierce (pass through) and you can still get over 100 magic pierce. Is this not enough?

Iron Golem
Hm trying to find Fury's pic to compare to 1.21z file i downloaded. will have to wait until I track things down.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:08 am 
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Thanks Kramuti, a fine set of corrections for me to implement.
kramuti wrote:
2. (Amp) 38% +1%/blvl +1%/2lvl but i thought 38 was supposed to be lower?
3. (SkellyMages) Don't recall but there was a point made about survivability (they are archers now and I don't know if this helped survivability in general)
4. (Decrep) -33-blvl/2% ? but I thought it started lower (more positive value like -25)
6. (SkellyKnight) likely 15%. 15 per level would be shit life for a single summon, no?
7. (Smite) yes. doesn't duriel have this? is why he could/can? be phys immune past norm (hidden)
2. If people want different numbers, may they speak up soon.
3. SkellyMages have a function for %HP currently, but it's referring to fields that are empty while the fields that are related to life are never used by any functions. I figure it's a pretty simple typo, but wanted to check. Since it's 12% +8%/Lvl (400% at lvl 50), it will be quite noticeable when stacked with the +HP of SkellyMastery (Currently lvl 50 in Hell has 1070HP, but it will be 5000 after the change; lvl50 Skellies have 20300, SkellyKnight has 21700). My example number imply that the correction should be implemented, but it would be good to hear from someone that's played with them recently.
4. It has been suggested that Decrep should be -20% -1%/2blvl
6. SkellyKnight currently gains 15HP per SMastery, but it seems no one complained. Only the description shows it as 15%. However, since +HP multiplies with +%HP, the current implementation isn't as weak as you'd think (about 20% lower HP in Hell, 5% lower in Norm). I will update skills.txt to match the description (lvl 50 Hell HP=28800).
7. Duriel does have Smite, and if his phys immunity is a problem, then it's a pretty simple fix. I can understand why the %DR wasn't implemented as a synergy (between Smite, Defiance, and HShield, the least effect per skill point is from Smite), but perhaps we can use one of those other skills as a flag that prevents Duriel from gaining any benefit. Only if a character has hard points in Defiance will Smite give 1%DR per hard point. I chose Defiance rather than HShield because its low level will make Smite act more like it was intended.
kramuti wrote:
Confuse: several have argued that should go back to regular curse. issue with CI from other classes are said to have been fixed via past changes.
At a later time I shall investigate this issue in more depth, since I am unable to determine much from the files alone. My main experiences with Confuse is that players never used it since many monsters were boss-flagged, but it certainly is effective against trash monsters. Depending on what people think has changed with it, I could imagine it becoming overpowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:30 am 
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On the skele stuff, if they actual behavior is of the lower values then probably just keep it. No need to buff something that isn't broken in practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:21 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
Blessed Hammer
Are hammers viable at the moment? I know FuryCury's argument that maybe they should get bypass since have to be close, but the pierce (pass through) and you can still get over 100 magic pierce. Is this not enough?


Hammers are really strong right now. I think the bypass was a follow-up suggestion to hammer dmg being nerfed by 20%.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:26 pm 

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Brevan wrote:
The point you raise regarding the balance between SoBarbs, Salvation, and the skill point investment for %Absorbs causes me to consider that perhaps none of the options I see in the files is the best solution.

I can understand why Salvation's 10% absorbAll was removed, since for 1 skill point you got that with resAll, making all 3 ResAuras pretty ineffective (albeit still better for their element). How do people feel about Salvation giving 5% + 1%AbsorbAll for every 4 points into any res aura, i.e.
%Absorbs = 5 + (resFire.blvl + resCold.blvl + resLtng.blvl) / 4.
The benefit is that if you maxed one ResAura (to synergize a HolyAura I guess), then you'd get 10% absorbAll rather than 20% absorb for the element you already have 20% absorbs for (via ResAura). If for some reason you maxed 3 ResAuras, then Salvation would give 20% AbsorbAll. If people like this solution, then please speak up soon.
I'd hesitate to have salvation giving 20% sorbs to be honest. It used to be the three res auras gave 20% sorb to an individual res, and salv gave 10 to each. That seems like it is as should be. 20% sorb from salv would make it too strong, making things too easy. As it was I saw a few salv/healers rolling around and they made hell chaos a breeze. Using current sorb values available on current realm.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:11 pm 
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I've finished what I can on the skill description oddities and requested skill changes. However, I found new issues (Grimward, Cleansing) and want to revisit some issue (Confuse Curse, IGolem Thorns, FoH-Sanctuary). Also, I changed SoBarbs' absorbs function to blvl/2.

Grimward - What is this supposed to do? The skill description implies that it should reduce enemy def, but in game it still works in a way similar to vanilla D2.

Cleansing - I haven't investigated closely yet, but this aura doesn't appear to function for its poisRes. I'm not sure why.

Confuse - A forum search implies that people are actually talking about MonDecrepify (skillID=388), which is the curse cast by some monsters when struck that reduces some stats like physRes and castRate. Confuse is the Necromancer's curse that uses the same graphic, and will cause monsters to fight each other. Confuse can be overridden by other curses, and I've found nothing in skills.txt that implies MonDecrepify can not be overridden by other curses, so I don't think I can fix that if it really is a problem (maybe someone did some code-editing?).

MonDecrepify - Do people want the penalties of this skill reduced (currently 50% slow, -%PhysRes, -%Dmg, and -66%FCRate) or perhaps the duration (currently 10sec +2sec/Lvl) reduced? I'd guess that -33% speed, physRes, Dmg, and FCRate would still annoy (but not frustrate) people enough to make the skill worthwhile. Alternatively, a duration of 5sec +0.5sec/Lvl should be less frustrating. I think both reductions together are a pretty big change, but probably fine. My personal choice would be the reduced duration, since I prefer not stopping my gameplay (I similarly dislike silly-long poison durations of over 10 seconds).

Iron Golem Thorns - Do people agree that 1000% +30%/lvl is alright? This would be 2500% at lvl 50.

FoH-Sanctuary - I've implemented and confirmed a method for Sanctuary to buff FoH damage by 1.5%/Lvl when the aura is active. I chose 1.5%/lvl based on the average monster magic resistance in Hell being about 40%. At Sanctuary level 50 (+75% FoH), the FoH damage will be similar to what it is currently with the bypass, but will have been achieved only after sinking some points into Sanctuary. If anyone wants to offer a different function besides 1.5%/lvl, please speak up soon (something like 10% + 2%/blvl would also be good since those who invest into Sanctuary get a good boost).

I changed the implementation of SoBarbs absorbs. I found an inelegant method of passing it its own blvl value that it can use to provide blvl/2 AbsorbAll. HoWolverine is using the same method to provide blvl/2 %DR. The previous solution with diminishing returns required fewer hard points for the same benefit, so would probably feel too easy for most people.

kwikster wrote:
I'd hesitate to have salvation giving 20% sorbs to be honest. It used to be the three res auras gave 20% sorb to an individual res, and salv gave 10 to each. That seems like it is as should be. 20% sorb from salv would make it too strong, making things too easy. As it was I saw a few salv/healers rolling around and they made hell chaos a breeze. Using current sorb values available on current realm.
It would take 60 hard points into the ResAuras to get 20% absorb all from Salvation, 20 hard points to get 10% absorb all, and 1 soft point (Salvation) to get 5% absorb all. This should be slightly harder than the current setup, where you get 10% absorb all for 1 soft point. If someone wants to make a dedicated Salvation Healer build (20 Prayer, 20 HBolt, 60 ResAuras), then I would consider the absorbs pretty fair, and would expect such a build to dramatically make things easier for his team (note that he'd be nearly helpless alone). If people wanted to go with the current description of Salvation (AbsorbFire% = ResFire.blvl, AbsorbCold% = ResCold.blvl, etc), then maxing the ResAuras would still get you 20% Absorb All from Salvation.

Would you be comfortable with Salvation's proposed absorbs formula changed from:
5% + (ResFire + ResCold + ResLtng)/4
to:
(ResFire + ResCold + ResLtng)/4
The benefit is that there would be no absorbs at all without investment into the ResAuras, and at best Salvation would give 15% absorb all, which would still be very effective for the Salvation Healer build described above (note that I think that build wouldn't be much fun, but good at what it does).


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:46 am 
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regarding to mondecrep , yeah it would be nice to tone it down a bit, sometimes when amped and mondecrepped youll have more than 100% reduced phys.

and theres also some of the oblivion knights in a4 / a5 that casts 100% amp maybe a bit over the top , baal also casts 100% amp

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:48 pm 
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I've done some testing with Cleansing. It's certainly got some weird hard-coding behind it. The problem I saw before was that the character-screen display for poison length reduction was never affected by Cleansing (and indeed it behaves very differently), and my poison resistance wasn't gaining benefits from the aura (i.e. skill description was incorrect)

My tests consisted of setting Blood Moor zombies to deal only poison damage on attack that lasted for about 6 seconds, I changed the value of Cleansing's item_poisonlengthresist stat and retested the duration of the poison.

The stat item_poisonlengthresist does not function for Cleansing the way it does in other circumstances. If this stat were 80, then Cleansing will cause poison durations to be 80% (5 seconds) of their normal, if the stat were 10, then poison durations are reduced to 10% (<1second) of their normal. So in past patches, when we leveled up Cleansing, it got worse :shock:. Oddly, values above 100 are treated differently, for example, I set the value to 150 and the poison duration was about 10 times longer (I got bored of counting after 40 seconds) than normal.

I experimented with different methods of applying poison resistance, but found no method of applying it only to the player (with other auras you can put things into their passivestat fields, but not with cleansing apparently). I can give the aura itself poison resistance, but apparently only if I put it in one of the first few aurastat fields. This would be very similar behavior to the ResAuras (resistance and "absorbs" for all).

How do people feel about setting Cleansing to be more similar to the other ResAuras? Here are some options I had in mind:

1) PoisLenReduced 40% (i.e. absorb 20%), PoisRes progression like ResAuras, no PrayerHealing

2) As (1), but Cleansing and all ResAuras have PrayerHealing (same value as Prayer)

3) PoisLenReduced and PoisRes from 17% to 75% with diminishing returns, has PrayerHealing (so unchanged from last patch, but all gain poisRes now)

With regards to other skills, I need feedback for:

1) Grimward - What should it be doing, please describe with numbers
2) IronGolem - Thorns
3) Sanctuary FOH buff progression
4) Mondecrep nerf - Please describe with numbers
5) Salvation absorbs - Is there an option already described that people like?
6) BHammer - Was this supposed to be changed? I don't have information for requested changes. If people want it changed, then please describe the change with numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:24 pm 
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1) trying to find the exact changes and having issues remember when it was actually done to track down the changelog. Forum search maybe tomorrow evening when I care to actually look deeper into this. I am pretty sure it was intended to reduce enemy defense, and meant to help out things like battlecry.
2) Well from this viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6516 at level 60 it is currently at 3100% via the skill descrip and seen as not nearly as good as 1.21z. We don't want to go to what it was then, but I haven't calculated those values.
3) Hm I think top tier being essentially as effective as now is maybe ok since you now have to spend extra points to get it, and sacrifice elsewhere. Progression: I probably don't have quite enough experience to argue well.
4) I like your values of going from currently 50% slow, -%PhysRes, -%Dmg, and -66%FCRate) or perhaps the duration (currently 10sec +2sec/Lvl) to-33% speed, physRes, Dmg, and FCRate. Duration of 5sec +0.5sec/Lvl. It gets cast a lot in respective areas.
5) I was looking back at previous changelogs and absorball was taken away due to ease of getting high absorbs. Some of this has been adressed via items. It should be hard to get to max absorbs of say 20% to all. It does rarely get used at the moment, so maybe it deserves some attention. I basically agree with your assessment. Others may point out things I am missing...and they should.
6) Probably leave it be if they are strong atm as slappy notes.

Oh and note on this "Warmth doesn't add the MDR from the skill as it says it does." I think it does, but shrines seem seem to screw very badly with the display. I ran into this as well, but think I nailed it down to shrines...maybe not?

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:52 am 
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Grimward - I've cloned this skill from v1.3b (I've got these files handy). It summons an astral-sword looking totem. The totem does nothing but use an aura that reduces monster defense from 10% to 50% (diminishing returns capped at level 40), with radius 4.67 yards +0.67 yards per level. Mana cost 30 +0/lvl.

Sanctuary - I've set the FoH bonus to 10% + 2%/blvl. This will force players to invest into Sanctuary more than my previous suggestion.

IGolem - I've set the thorns to 1000% +30%/lvl. This appears to be between the value in the linked picture (100% +50%/lvl) and the previous value (90% +30%/lvl), which is what was requested.

MonDecrep - The penalties are reduced from about -50% to -33%, duration reduced from 10s +2s/lvl to 5s +0.5/lvl.

Salvation - I set the absorbs formula to (ResFire.blvl + ResCold.blvl + ResLtng.blvl)/4. After investing 60 hard points into the ResAuras, this would give 15% AbsorbAll.

Cleansing - I've set this aura to give both poison length reduction and poison resistance (people probably won't notice the poison resistance once the reduction is high). It still has the Prayer synergy.

Warmth - I agree that this skill has interesting things going on. The skill doesn't seem to apply soft points into the skill unless you've entered a hard point that game. For my test, I gave a character some +Skill gear and a few points into Warmth. It was only when I re-entered a game that I noticed her char-screen displays for MDR and +%ManaRecovery reset themselves to the values of my base Warmth level. I put another hard point into Warmth and the displays reflected the benefits of the soft level. As far as I know, the char screen displays for stats are accurate. I don't think there's anything I can do about this, the text files appear correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:28 am 
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I should have time to start with item changes over the weekend. Saturday evening or Sunday. Will edit the initial post sometime around then as well. The actual changes shouldn't take all that long to implement.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:16 pm 
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I've done some experimenting with Cleansing, and noticed that it has a hard-coded curse resistance that has nothing to do with the mods in skills.txt. Although I was able to find some information about it being hardcoded, that information didn't help me generate a formula to estimate the %CurseRes per level (it did explain why Cleansing is the only thing capable of reducing poison/curse durations after they started though, and why it can never grant immunity in Vanilla D2).

I was eventually able to come up with a surprisingly accurate and simple formula that would be useful in skilldesc.txt though, just so people have a clue about how long a curse would last once you put on Cleansing.
%CurseRes = lvl / (lvl +2)
Cleansing level 1: 33%
Cleansing level 3: 60%
Cleansing level 10: 83%
Cleansing level 20: 91%
Cleansing level 50: 96%

Note that this isn't like Curse Resistance used by Fade. They stack multiplicatively, not additively (50% each = 75% res, not 100%). I'll update skilldesc.txt by tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:04 pm 

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Like most of what is being talked about here. Good info. While the salvation change can be a good compromise, it still seems that it makes it easier than should be to hit max/stacked sorbs running with a single non-recasted skill. IDK yet, time will tell if it should be toned down.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog (6-16)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:50 pm 
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edited first post to give changelist.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:23 pm 

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Good changes for the most part, Kramuti. A couple issues though.

1) The change from charges of boneprison (1.21z) to oskill BP (1.3a) gimped necro bone armor a lot. Perhaps instead of oskill BP make it have charges of say lvl 12-15 BP to give psn dagger necros a bit of survivability. The change was dramatic, they had a had time vs many bosses without a belt of juvs to strike one time. The change went from one extreme to another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the lvl of the charge impact how it synergizes a skill?

2) Overall the changes to Steelshade is on target, just change the ctc from CoS to chain lightning or perhaps lightning. Currently it's CoS.

Not sure about making Andy hat a 3 skill, there are several already (although some are specific class based), perhaps variable 2-3 skill. The lack of ed% on ribcracker was intended for use as a viable CB weapon, not for dmg so much, but with the low dmg of staves doubt it'll have much impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:36 pm 

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Paladin conversion suggestion:
Add a zero to damage increase.

A ~230% damage increase to physical and elemental is the equivalent to the same number in thorn % (which is basically useless)

If multiplying by 10 too much, a number between 5-10 might do the trick.
Adding synergies to increase physical and elemental damage could be interesting too (separately).

What happens when conversion runs out (or the duration of it) should be discusses as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:58 pm 
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Riem821 wrote:
Paladin conversion suggestion:
Add a zero to damage increase.

A ~230% damage increase to physical and elemental is the equivalent to the same number in thorn % (which is basically useless).
While I don't know if that equivalence holds, when last I played HU no one used Converts for their ability to do damage. The last time I did the math regarding Thorns, I found that you'd need to reflect upwards of 100x monster damage in order to 1-Hit kill stuff, so I agree that Converts doing 3.3x damage isn't offensively effective even when combine with a level 50 Thorns aura (~30x damage reflected). I don't think anyone would have a problem with Converts doing 10x their regular damage.

If anyone else agrees with a change to Conversion such that it's damage bonus to Converts is around 1000%, then I'll investigate making the change (it should be trivial).
Riem821 wrote:
What happens when conversion runs out (or the duration of it) should be discusses as well.
If you're referring to the zero-HP "feature" or the permanent-turning bug, then there's not a lot I can do via text file edits. If neither of these issues were what you had in mind, then please begin the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:16 am 
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i use conversion alot on healer and avenger, its really nice to have some tanks , would be cool if they could actually do some dmg as of now they are just shields.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:05 am 

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Brevan wrote:
Riem821 wrote:
Paladin conversion suggestion:
Add a zero to damage increase.

A ~230% damage increase to physical and elemental is the equivalent to the same number in thorn % (which is basically useless).
While I don't know if that equivalence holds, when last I played HU no one used Converts for their ability to do damage. The last time I did the math regarding Thorns, I found that you'd need to reflect upwards of 100x monster damage in order to 1-Hit kill stuff, so I agree that Converts doing 3.3x damage isn't offensively effective even when combine with a level 50 Thorns aura (~30x damage reflected). I don't think anyone would have a problem with Converts doing 10x their regular damage.

If anyone else agrees with a change to Conversion such that it's damage bonus to Converts is around 1000%, then I'll investigate making the change (it should be trivial).
Riem821 wrote:
What happens when conversion runs out (or the duration of it) should be discusses as well.
If you're referring to the zero-HP "feature" or the permanent-turning bug, then there's not a lot I can do via text file edits. If neither of these issues were what you had in mind, then please begin the discussion.


An old discussion on the subject led to some interesting ideas about turning converts into timebombs, having them explode after the timer runs out, changing the duration accordingly. Another idea was to have the monster HP slowly drain.

I see two problems with conversion right now, not including the damage.

1: monsters don't follow you
2: Converted monsters yield no xp

How we could possibly fix that is beyond me. Interestingly enough, revived monsters seem to follow you around, so that could be a start. However, turning the paladin into a pseudo necromancer might not be the proper direction.

I made a conversion + thorn based paladin on the realm, with a total thorn % around ~4400. Even that is barely able to kill monsters.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:42 am 
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Riem821 wrote:
...turning converts into timebombs, having them explode after the timer runs out
I'm not sure how to attach this property to a skill like Conversion. Exploding on Death (i.e. Suicide Minions) is a property like LightningEnchanted or ExtraStrong. It should be pretty easy to attach it to a summon, but not to a monster that has already spawned. Exploding when the timer runs out might hurt players and not monsters since the Convert has become an enemy. The wand SuicideBranch revived SuicideMinions that would explode, but I don't recall the explosion hurting monsters (the damage might have been too low to be noticed). Unfortunately almost any skill that converts monster HP into damage (e.g. CExplosion) is pretty hard to balance (CExplosion has special code to help balance it).
Riem821 wrote:
...have the monster HP slowly drain
The zero-HP feature I mentioned before is that Converts lose their HP when the timer runs out. However, In my previous experience, and with a test run minutes ago, that feature is unreliable. Perhaps the "feature" was fixed in v1.10 and no one noticed. I just tried a test for HP drain implemented as negative life regeneration (-100 should have killed the test-critter in 10 seconds), but it had no effect even if at -1000. I know the hpregen stat is pretty limited in itemstatcosts.txt, but that limit was confirmed to not apply to skills or non-saved items (like gems (even socketed gems)). I'm not sure how else to implement this without the hpregen stat. I'd recommend dropping this idea since it would reduce a Convert's tanking ability.
Riem821 wrote:
...make monsters follow you
Since Conversion does not change monster AI (only their allegiance), there appears to be no method of tweaking the AI. Consider instead recommending Conversion-themed items that spawn more revives or have summon oSkills.
Riem821 wrote:
...Converted monsters yield no xp
Testing confirmed that both the monsters killed by Converts, and the death of the Convert at the hands of other monsters yielded XP. I'm not sure how your experiences differed.

For now, there has been no opposition to the idea that Converts will be buffed from doing around 3.3x damage to around 10x, so if you had a group of about 5-10 in Hell, I'd expected them capable of bringing down a wounded Fallen, and possibly larger game. They might benefit from Fanaticism, but not a lot (number of attacks for monsters is limited by more than attack speed), so Thorns is likely the way to go. Their AI will still limit them as a fighting force (Converted Fallen will still flee at the horror of anything dying nearby), but they'll soak up damage as well as ever. In Norm and maybe NM, Conversion will be more effective since the ratio of monster damage to HP favours more damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:51 am 

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For some reason the post I had written after you answered me never got posted, so I'll rewrite it.

"Testing confirmed that both the monsters killed by Converts, and the death of the Convert at the hands of other monsters yielded XP. I'm not sure how your experiences differed."

I'm not gonna stand in one area for 5 minutes. I'll be VERY far away from my converts when they die. I don't know what the xp range on this is, but I honestly doubt it reaches 2 areas away.

With that said, if the damage is buffed subtantially (more than 10x) we could always consider shortening the duration.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:23 pm 
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I've done some more testing with Conversion.

The Enhanced Physical/Elemental Damage properties don't appear to be working at all. I'm not sure why I didn't notice earlier, but maybe my testing numbers were not large enough to act as a good test. In my testing today, I experimented with +0%, +100%, and +3000%. I'm pretty confident that there was no implementation error. I suppose my testing where -hpregen had no effect makes more sense now (Conversion does not appear capable of applying aurastats at all).

To get around this limitation, how do people feel about a Thorns synergy of +50%Thorns per level Conversion? That would end up giving +1000% damage with level 20 Conversion, meaning that 1v1 there would be no change compared to having Conversion buffing monster damage by 1000%. It forces the player to use Thorns, but I suppose that would have been the best aura to use anyways. It's unfortunate that there appears to be no way of making better use of Convert's elemental damage.

With regards to the duration, it's currently 30 seconds +10sec/Lvl, which I agree seems like a really long time considering most trash fights don't last longer than 30 seconds. How do people feel about reducing the duration to 30 seconds + 1sec/Lvl, or even 16 seconds +1sec/Lvl.

If anyone has other ideas regarding a solution for the +%ED issue, or has other desires for the duration, please speak up soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:16 am 

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"The Enhanced Physical/Elemental Damage properties don't appear to be working at all."

Well that kind of explains a lot of things.
Have you tried messing around with the monster level bonus? If thorn is to be our only way to deal damage, I think the % should be significantly higher.
If we really want to make them able to kill anything. ~4000% barely kills anything in hell right now. It's incredibly slow, but monsters die.

The problem with thorn is that its reduced by any form of damage reduction.
What about removing or debuffing converts further to help with thorn?
(there is also the fact its all physical damage) Perhaps give it a synergy to thorn that, if you put points in thorn, would have a perma amp or something on converts (reducing physical resist by % per level of thorn aura) so if somebody wants converts for tanking, he can, and if somebody wants to make an army of reflect damage traitors, he also can.

Is it possible to have a negative value of "reduced damage" and "reduced magic damage"? If so, this could be a solution instead.
Also, what about elemental mastery? Could this work? (or elemental pierce)

Have you tried conversion with values above 3000%? If you have the time, I suggest trying 10k-20k to see if there is any difference.

I really appreciate what you're doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:34 am 
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Riem821 wrote:
Have you tried messing around with the monster level bonus?...What about removing or debuffing converts further to help with thorn?
In the skills.txt file, each skill has several fields a modder can play with. Some of the fields are related to which stats affect the target of a curse or aura. If a skill is hardcoded to pay attention to those fields, then it is very versatile and lots of interesting modding can occur. Conversion does not appear to be one of those skills. This means that no form of buffing or debuffing can occur. If someone else is able to test, then I would be very happy if they found a method for it to work, but appreciate their effort nonetheless.
Riem821 wrote:
If thorns is to be our only way to deal damage, I think the % should be significantly higher. If we really want to make them able to kill anything...
Since I can't modify Converts, they will remain powerful tanks (each taking roughly 100 hits to die in Hell if they don't simply regenerate the damage). If Convert with Thorns are the only skills your player needs to use to create excellent tanks that efficiently kill everything, then that build is too powerful. One solution is to improve Thorns via more synergies (I think most folks agree that a 100-point build should be very effective against trash), in which case people should recommend 3 more skills they want this build to use (Conversion + Thorns +Prayer? + (Conviction or Redemption)? + (Sacrifice, Zeal, or Vengeance)?). It doesn't really matter what the skill are if your plan is to use Conversion and Thorns, but the skills chosen will become synergies for Thorns (I'd guess 50% per level).
Riem821 wrote:
Have you tried conversion with values above 3000%? If you have the time, I suggest trying 10k-20k to see if there is any difference.
My testing is using my own modified HU files, so I'll grant that it's possible that a change I've made invalidates my test. It's pretty unlikely because I didn't change much for Conversion or Thorns. In my files, monsters generally do 1/30th of their HP as damage, so 3000% thorns is a 1-hit KO (that's the only reason I chose this number). My test was using a lvl 33 (via -act5 flag) pally with level 10 conversion (0%, 100% or 3000% ED) and level 10 thorns (1000% dmg returned in my files). I then isolated a couple Fallen or Zombies in BMoor, converted one, and waited until he killed the other. For Conversion, no buffing values had an effect and the monsters needed around 30 hits for one to die. When I flashed Thorns, a monster died after around 2-3 hits, which is what I expected.

One of the reasons I even bothered with this test was that I wanted to confirm that my version of Conversion buffing by 300% wasn't overpowered when paired with Thorns. I eventually decided that I'll allow my Thorns aura to progress as it was (maxes around 1700% for 2-hit kills against non-resistant trash), but reduce the aura radius to a flat 3.3 yards. Conversion was made into a synergy for the radius (max Thorns radius would be about 1 screen). If you guys want something similar for HU, then it can be done, but you might want different values for things like range, thorns%, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:14 am 
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I have changed heaven's will (level 20 med -> regen mana 50%) and Purity (readded level 20 med)

I have looked at making crafts require specific minimum levels for the respective gems. I don't see how to make this work cleanly as crafting recipes depend on the item level and the character level. I think just fiddling with the plvl/ilvl fields in cube main is just gonna screw things up. Not really sure what to do for this.

I still need to go through the bug list thread and see what can/needs to be fixed. This week will lighten up a bit towards the end of the week. Hopefully, everything will be done by next Monday.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 am 
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Since it looks like those interested in discussing the issues with Conversion have already spoken, I've implemented a fix that might be okay for most:

1) Conversion duration reduced from 60sec +10/Lvl to 30sec +1/Lvl. Skill description now correctly shows converts receive no bonuses.

2) Thorns now has a +50%Thorns synergy from Conversion, Vengeance (to deal with phys immunes), and Redemption (seemed relevant for the sacrificial nature of a Thorns build).

I'll send the relevant files to Kramuti in the near future. I believe this is the last set of skill changes requested. Hopefully the next ladder is enjoyed by everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:46 am 

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@ Brevan

You still haven't told me if any of this is possible

"What about removing or debuffing converts further to help with thorn?
(there is also the fact its all physical damage) Perhaps give it a synergy to thorn that, if you put points in thorn, would have a perma amp or something on converts (reducing physical resist by % per level of thorn aura) so if somebody wants converts for tanking, he can, and if somebody wants to make an army of reflect damage traitors, he also can.
-Or putting amp on top of converts
Is it possible to have a negative value of "reduced damage" and "reduced magic damage"? If so, this could be a solution instead.
Also, what about elemental mastery? Could this work? (or elemental pierce)"
I also don't agree with vengeance because if your goal is to massively buff your thorn level, there is one weapon that gives a ridiculous +skill to it but the damage on it is far too low to be used for actual damage.

Having one or two items that fit the build would be nice as well. (Maybe a high level paladin shield runework with +thorn, and oskill with spirit of barbs)


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:02 pm 
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adding free amp and the like does not seem like a good idea without a helluva lot of testing, even if it does work.

if you read one of brevan's posts from like 3 lines up you would see "This means that no form of buffing or debuffing can occur." He did answer you.

The ideas, though maybe fun, are not extensively thought out or tested. It is also overcomplicating things.

There are already items with SoB charges. Use crafts or other weapons that already exist for thorns% on self.

When brevan gives me these files, I will fix what I can from the buglist and then essentially all is done. Hopefully this will be soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:43 pm 

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kramuti wrote:
adding free amp and the like does not seem like a good idea without a helluva lot of testing, even if it does work.

if you read one of brevan's posts from like 3 lines up you would see "This means that no form of buffing or debuffing can occur." He did answer you.

The ideas, though maybe fun, are not extensively thought out or tested. It is also overcomplicating things.

There are already items with SoB charges. Use crafts or other weapons that already exist for thorns% on self.

When brevan gives me these files, I will fix what I can from the buglist and then essentially all is done. Hopefully this will be soon.


Alright. I'm eager to see the full patchlog. Might get some of my friends to come back and play with me.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Riem821 wrote:
I also don't agree with vengeance because if your goal is to massively buff your thorn level, there is one weapon that gives a ridiculous +skill to it but the damage on it is far too low to be used for actual damage.
Keep in mind that I recommended Vengeance because I felt it would be useful on the stuff that Thorns won't kill (particularly phys immunes). In that case it would be best to just weapon-switch to a nice Vengeance-friendly weapon rather than the one you had in mind. While Avengers are relatively fragile, this build comes with converted tanks, so you could even get away with a massive 2-Handed swingy thing. You might enjoy this variety of gameplay as well.

@kramuti
I've sent the files to you at the email address provided. Consider checking your spam folder if you still have not received them. Similarly, a while back I sent you a zipped package containing the program I wrote that creates simple web pages for Uniques, Sets, Gems, Runewords, and Cube Recipes. While I don't expect its output to be put directly into a website, it should be useful for spell-checking items, and might be copy-paste friendly for whoever wants to update the website. If you need me to resend any of these things, feel free to toss me an email.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Thanks Brevan. EVERYBODY ELSE SHOULD THANK YOU TOO!!!!!!!

I don't check that one all that often, so the post is welcome.
I will try to have this done by the end of next weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:06 am 

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Thanks Brevan ^.^

Copied from Arreat Summit: "Combining Conversion with Thorns makes a great way to get large numbers of monsters to kill themselves, however, once the Conversion wears off, your Thorns aura will remain on the monster for a second or two. If you hit the monster during this time (easy to do with Zeal) then you'll do massive damage to yourself." Will this be an issue? (ie. test)

Never made a thorns pally. I like the idea of vengeance as that will probably be a natural side-path to the 40 point thorns-conversion build to be deal with phys immunes and an attack that doesn't need all points into it to start dealing some damage. The contribution of having tanks for you in the build also makes it a more interesting choice.

I only see it as a problem for those who would like to have another attack or do another part build (whatever that might be). For that reason of the general possibilities for people using the thorns build, I'd probably see it as rather being a 40-point build with shared synergies between conversion and thorns.

Of course, most people will probably go some form of easy, general attack that can deal with what converted monsters with thorns can't which would be physical immunes, ranged and bosses and vengeance is an interesting choice there and is interesting in the way Brevan mentioned with tanks and 2H-possibilities.

Overall, I think it's a good thing to make the damage clearly come from thorns and put in a synergy to streamline the build (ie. to make it stand out from just +skills) and to reduce the annoying effect of converting monsters in that they fight for much longer than you need them which becomes a rather useless, unimportant negative effect.

Not sure what would be useful to put on Conversion as the effect of the skills (other than the proposed duration reduction and scaling level which seems like a good idea surely). HP? If the EDefense/Eattack/Edamage don't work, well, then that is out of the question.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Thx Brevan

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Wojihm wrote:
Copied from Arreat Summit: ... Will this be an issue? (ie. test)
It's true that Thorns can stay in effect for up to 2 seconds when Conversion wears off. That's a pretty old and well-known fact though, so most players have learned not to WW through a pack of thorny Converts. As a Converter, you'll pretty quickly have an idea of which monsters are about to deconvert. Attacks that auto-target (Zeal, WW, Fury, Fend, etc) are the only skills to avoid using though, which isn't hard to do.

You might be interested in this thread that described Thorns effectiveness a few patches ago (probably still fairly relevant).
Wojihm wrote:
I'd probably see it as rather being a 40-point build with shared synergies between conversion and thorns.
As a 40-point build, I'd recommend Thorns+Redemption. Use 1-point Conversion for crowd control, but otherwise just gear yourself with plenty of thorns gear (Last I played there was a wand that gave around 3000% thorns by itself), flash Redemption when your life gets low. I'd expect that build to be around as effective as a Thorns-barb is (he used FindPotion instead of Redemption), which I found fairly enjoyable for Norm and NM. One thing to consider is that maxing your Thorns% isn't the most effective strategy. If you get a consistent source of Amp (Consider an A1 merc with a bow that procs Amp) to reduce monster phys res, then you might be effectively doubling your Thorns.
Wojihm wrote:
Not sure what would be useful to put on Conversion...
As far as I can see, there is nothing I can do to Conversion except change it's %chance to convert, and it's duration. I suppose I could change the progression of the %Chance from diminishing returns to linear (maybe 50%+1%/lvl), but it would become less effective as a 1-point wonder.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:47 am 

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All looks good so far. Been playing a lite sin of late got her to late hell, not much issue. One thing I notice, every other summon gets some form of synergy bonus except the shadows. Master is a decent tank most of the time, yet lacks a bit vs tougher trash. I'd think adding perhaps a small life buff would be reasonable. The hell witches (fliers in crystal and beyond) cut them to shreds in wtfpwn fashion worse on named packs. Perhaps 5% life per hard point in fade, or a defense bonus similar to how valk gets from strategy. Setting gear to same lvl comparing valk to master, valk has 1.5k more life and double the defense bonus with 6 pts left to max decoy.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:57 am 
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kwikster wrote:
Shadows...
I hate Shadows.

In Skills.txt the "srvdofunc" number determines the behavior of a skill, such as whether or not it will pay attention to the aurastat, passivestat, calc, or param fields. Shadow Warrior and Shadow Master have a srvdofunc unlike any other skill, and sadly it appears that neither of them pay attention to any of their fields except param1 (+%HP/lvl), param5&param6 (equipment level). The testing I've done in the past was to simply give them 110% fire resistance via the aurastat and passivestat fields and check if they were immune to fire upon casting. The test showed that they gained no benefit from aurastat and passivestat fields, which are the only fields I can use to assign a buff. Even the original LoD v1.10 text files make use of these fields, but I can't think of anything that would invalidate my test or prove that they received those buffs (resistances and Strength/Dex) in v1.10, I think whoever made the v1.10 changes for Blizzard might have been unfamiliar with the hardcoding of these summons. Most summons receive their HP via the calc1 field, so any formula with a synergy can be used, but the Shadows appear to ignore the calc fields too.

What I have found effective for the shadows is to augment their gear. This can be refined on every skill level if needed (this would be time consuming), with the shadows gaining customized unique items made just for them (like the "BossHats" HU uses to gives boss monsters their healing timer). Those items could include oSkills to customized PassiveSkills that grant bonuses (except +HP alone didn't work well (raised only the max HP), but +%HP should be alright). Note that the Shadows would only be granted synergies for the skills they own using this method.

In the HU v1.3b files I have access to, I noticed that Shadow Warrior only ever received a magic Cestus and BladeTalon, which is probably why she wasn't a favoured summoned. ShadowMaster at best received a magic ring, rare ring, rare ammy, rare gloves, and two rare elite claws. Perhaps someone could extend MonEquip.txt for these summons to be more similar to Valk (by skill level 27 she had Rare Elites in every slot).

I've recently (last month) explored this kind of solution in my version of HU, and have not fully tested it. I gave Valk enough gear such that every item slot was occupied with rares, and found that she was spawning with multiple immunities because her resistances are not capped as Players' are, but she was using the gear meant for Players. My solution was to remove her aurastat resistance buffs, but I'm not quite happy with it yet. It may be possible to give the summon a unique item/oSkill that crops resistances that are beyond some value.

I would recommend this type of solution for next patch. Too much testing would be required for anything expected to be released within two weeks. I believe PureRage has experience with this (The post I reviewed on PhrozenKeep last year belonged to either him or Trevor (aka Mathematics)), so should have no trouble implementing it.

The only quick-fixes I can recommend for the patch being finished up now would be to copy the equipment of Shadow Master to Shadow Warrior, and maybe add some armor. There's no reason to expect SWarrior to become overpowered since SMaster isn't, and the addition of just armor to each Shadow isn't likely to break anything, but would grant some defense. Also, consider a 10% base-HP buff in Hell by adjusting monstats.txt, changing HP from 1000 to 1100. I can make the monstats.txt change if it's requested, since I have access to that file. I would need access to MonEquip.txt if the quick-fix I've described sounds reasonable. If there have been any changes to armor in HU since v1.3b, then I'll need access to armor.txt as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:51 pm 

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Here is a thought.
Of all the tankier classes, I find the paladin to be the hardest to properly tank with. He gets a lot of free armor with Defiance and holy shield, but so do the barb and the druid. He doesn't get any life bonus. Barbarian has two life bonus skills along with the druid. Druid has access to either HP bonus, Damage reduction %, or absorb, on top of the bonuses from shifting.

If one wants to benefit from the pally's damage reduction in %, he's forced into smiting, which is kind of annoying. I got nothing against smitting per se, but I'd like to be able to tank without being forced to use it.

As such, I suggest we remove the 20% damage reduction from smite, and we move it to Holy Shield, as a synergy, or whatever else.

On a somewhat related subject, is it possible to turn off the holy shield effect(shield transformation and pulsing) as a player side thing?

Also, would be nice to have something synergies with Salvation (damage skill I mean)


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:01 am 
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Riem821 wrote:
...I suggest we remove the 20% damage reduction from smite, and we move it to Holy Shield, as a synergy, or whatever else.
I think there are decent arguments for or against this change. Considering %PhysRes caps at 50% while blocking caps at 75%, you are probably better off trying to max your block rate since a Paladin can do that much more easily than a Barb or Druid. The reason Smite has a physRes bonus at all is simply because you can't leech with it, so it seemed fair that while other Pally builds might leech back life, the Smiter would simply take less damage. On the other hand, spending 20 skill points for 20%DR is pretty fair. I have no idea if people would have a problem with this.
Riem821 wrote:
...is it possible to turn off the holy shield effect(shield transformation and pulsing) as a player side thing?
I just took a look into this, and apparently you can't. I'm not too surprised, since I know HolyShield has quite a bit of hard-coding behind it (for example if the +%Block isn't a diminishing returns formula then the %Block displayed on shields gets buggy). My test consisted of changing states.txt:holyshield.transform from 1 to <blank> but there was no effect in-game. There aren't many other fields to change, so there isn't any other test I can think of. Most graphical states use the "overlay" fields, but holyshield doesn't.
Riem821 wrote:
Also, would be nice to have something synergies with Salvation (damage skill I mean)
Salvation helps protect from elemental damage (not poison), therefore it can be viewed as anti-Mage. Since mages in HU don't have any particular weaknesses (like phys res or maybe magic res), there is no obvious offensive skill synergize with. Salvation also protects party members (mainly summons) very well, but I can't think of an offensive skill that might complement that theme. If changes to HU since 1.3b introduced some Mage features that we can work with, then someone please fill me in. If I were to consider the elemental theme as the only justification, then Vengeance would work. Alternatively, please suggest an offensive skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:59 am 
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I understand the thoughts about the paladin, but DR% on HS would give hammerdins and FOHer's an easy 20%DR in caster gear.

I've personally wanted to bring back passive resists in the elemental resist auras. Not sure the current Bnet status, but back in 1.10 when I used to play, every 2 hard points in said aura gave 1% absorb per element. It was worth while to invest 20 points into resist lightning because there was so many LE monsters.

Paladins can pretty easily have 75% block, which helps a lot for melee attacks, but HU tends to deal most of its damage via elements(elemental enchanted and counters). With the ability to have 10% absorb to a single element with 20 skill points, the paladins 4k base life endgame would go a lot further. Of course I'm comparing the paladins life to a 10k base life barb(w/o BO) and a druid with similar numbers(w/o oak). It's not as drastic of a change, but I feel could really help most paladin builds.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Resist auras on bnet give +1 to Max Resistance per two hard points, not absorbs.

I should have things done on my end by tomorrow end of day, assuming nothing catastrophic happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:00 pm 

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it seems my post refused to get posted, so I'll ask again.

Can somebody explain to my what exactly is the aura surrounding the druid pets?
It looks like salvation, but nowhere ingame does it specify if it does anything or is only there to look pretty.

If it does something, what is it? All resist? Absorb? Does it stack with the Paladin's own salvation aura? If it doesn't, why?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:51 pm 
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It is a copy of salvations so that druid pets get the resists that they are actually supposed to as they level. There is/was a bug in 1.10 where resists did not apply correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:28 pm 
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FFS, somehow I think i sent Brevan some wrong copies of things. I am going to have to go through and decipher this fucking mess. I noticed it when I opened skills and started to apply the merc edits for act5 mercs...some entries at the bottom were missing. Looks like the data folder I sent him is off somehow...it was cleanly made from the current patch files...or so i bloody thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:35 pm 
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BUUUUUMP

servers been active lately, requesting update on patch por favor

I pm'd kramuti but no reply thus far, anything on your end, Brevan?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:50 pm 
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My work on the skills finished around July 15th. I have not been contacted for any other changes.

I understand that there was a possible filing error, but when I submitted my changes I included a file that stated which fields were changed for every skill or missile I modified, so I don't expect too much was needed to correct the filing error (might take a full day though). I made significant changes to the skill description file, but at the moment do not remember any change that would have broken anything (my changes were intended to make the skill descriptions require fewer or no updates when skills changed, so swapping the skills file wouldn't matter as much).

My guess is that people are simply on vacation. If they are in the summer semester of a college, then now would be rife with exams.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:52 pm 
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thanks brevan

I guess we'll wait to hear from kramuti. There's been talk of resetting on this current patch, but if the work is nearly done on the new patch then it'd be a shame for all that work to the wayside

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:33 pm 

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Brevan wrote:
Riem821 wrote:
...turning converts into timebombs, having them explode after the timer runs out
I'm not sure how to attach this property to a skill like Conversion. Exploding on Death (i.e. Suicide Minions) is a property like LightningEnchanted or ExtraStrong. It should be pretty easy to attach it to a summon, but not to a monster that has already spawned. Exploding when the timer runs out might hurt players and not monsters since the Convert has become an enemy. The wand SuicideBranch revived SuicideMinions that would explode, but I don't recall the explosion hurting monsters (the damage might have been too low to be noticed). Unfortunately almost any skill that converts monster HP into damage (e.g. CExplosion) is pretty hard to balance (CExplosion has special code to help balance it).
Riem821 wrote:
...have the monster HP slowly drain
The zero-HP feature I mentioned before is that Converts lose their HP when the timer runs out. However, In my previous experience, and with a test run minutes ago, that feature is unreliable. Perhaps the "feature" was fixed in v1.10 and no one noticed. I just tried a test for HP drain implemented as negative life regeneration (-100 should have killed the test-critter in 10 seconds), but it had no effect even if at -1000. I know the hpregen stat is pretty limited in itemstatcosts.txt, but that limit was confirmed to not apply to skills or non-saved items (like gems (even socketed gems)). I'm not sure how else to implement this without the hpregen stat. I'd recommend dropping this idea since it would reduce a Convert's tanking ability.
Riem821 wrote:
...make monsters follow you
Since Conversion does not change monster AI (only their allegiance), there appears to be no method of tweaking the AI. Consider instead recommending Conversion-themed items that spawn more revives or have summon oSkills.
Riem821 wrote:
...Converted monsters yield no xp
Testing confirmed that both the monsters killed by Converts, and the death of the Convert at the hands of other monsters yielded XP. I'm not sure how your experiences differed.

For now, there has been no opposition to the idea that Converts will be buffed from doing around 3.3x damage to around 10x, so if you had a group of about 5-10 in Hell, I'd expected them capable of bringing down a wounded Fallen, and possibly larger game. They might benefit from Fanaticism, but not a lot (number of attacks for monsters is limited by more than attack speed), so Thorns is likely the way to go. Their AI will still limit them as a fighting force (Converted Fallen will still flee at the horror of anything dying nearby), but they'll soak up damage as well as ever. In Norm and maybe NM, Conversion will be more effective since the ratio of monster damage to HP favours more damage.


have the converts CE when they die.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Delta wrote:
have the converts CE when they die.
Thank you for reviewing the ideas in the thread. CE onDeath would be neat, and considering how slowly monsters kill Converts, it would certainly not be overpowered. After the post you quoted, I mentioned that there isn't a lot I can do to Conversion because it seems to have some hardcoded limitations. Skills in general are limited with the stats they can buff. For example, you might be able to give a player or monster "+X AllSkills" via skills, but never "X% Skill Y on Death". This is probably because the skill-modification interface only allows one number for input, but some properties require two or three. Some properties like "+X%ResistAll" can be broken down into separate stats, so a skill adds each of the four resistance properties separately. Most of the skill-related properties (onStruck, onAttack, etc.) do not appear to be able to be broken down.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Sorrry I have been MIA for so long. My summer was nuts, eapecially the end.
Now that the fall term has started, I will have morw time since I don't have to prep nearly as much.
The file errors werw not brevan's fault. They were mine. I sent him at least some wrong fioes...where most changes were made. I've started corrections. It shouldn't take horrically long.
Thanks for being patient with me.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:58 pm 
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thanks kramuti. Lots of people getting anxious :)

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:59 pm 

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good job guys! just keep in touch with duff so he can know when to start up the reset and get the server hosts ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:29 am 

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My small idea about psn zon.
I treed some playing with this build, and imo it's... somewhat boring, compared to LF-zon (sparcs! flying lighting! thunder! "take that, f... monster!" :lol: )
So, maybe make psn as fun as LF, while not makin it op?
1) psn not reset boss timer - already made
2) psn jav - have to lure enemies on psn trail, which is somewhat problematic. but since its starting skill, its ok.
3) dspray - ugh... :| synegry only.
4) plag jav - remove trail from javelin, make it requiring AR to hit. with 4th skill maxed (20 hardpoints, makink it 80-pt build) have same damage as now, or slightly lower (no more thatn 10%)
5) some new fun skill? for now i have only this half-assed idea: Poison fury (lol). copy LF mechanic and animation, then recolor it to green and psn damage (equaling to plag jav with 80 pts spent, remember its over-time). psn bolts leave NO trail or clouds. if dmg seems too hight, nerf it by up to 30-40% (but dont make useless...). and it needs some cool sound :)
Maybe nerf it all in some other aspect so it's not OP.

now laugh at me. :oops:

ps: it seems alot of things was simplified over time. so far: countess doesn't required for andi anymore, big level with hard enemys before andi removed too, maggot staff simply laying in chest near boss like in vanilla (gasp!) not in isolated red-portal room, and so on... i'd bet ardual and arcane sanc was dumbed down too.
why?


Last edited by Hommit on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:50 am 

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Brevan wrote:
Delta wrote:
have the converts CE when they die.
Thank you for reviewing the ideas in the thread. CE onDeath would be neat, and considering how slowly monsters kill Converts, it would certainly not be overpowered. After the post you quoted, I mentioned that there isn't a lot I can do to Conversion because it seems to have some hardcoded limitations. Skills in general are limited with the stats they can buff. For example, you might be able to give a player or monster "+X AllSkills" via skills, but never "X% Skill Y on Death". This is probably because the skill-modification interface only allows one number for input, but some properties require two or three. Some properties like "+X%ResistAll" can be broken down into separate stats, so a skill adds each of the four resistance properties separately. Most of the skill-related properties (onStruck, onAttack, etc.) do not appear to be able to be broken down.


gotcha. Good to know Brevan. Thanks for all your work on this!


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Hommit wrote:
3) dspray - ugh... :| synegry only.
Do other people share this opinion of DSpray? If so, then please recommend changes. For example, when I was messing with my own version of HU, I made DSpray's bolts pierce through enemies, but only travel about 1/3 of the screen. My idea was that PJav poisons a line at range, PlagueJav poisons a circle at range, so DSpray could poison a cone in melee. I made ranged, large-area, and poison skills have a damage penalty, so DSpray was a relatively high-damage poison skill (about 1/3 higher than PJav and 1/2 as high as PStrike).
Hommit wrote:
4) plag jav - remove trail from javelin, make it requiring AR to hit. with 4th skill maxed (20 hardpoints, makink it 80-pt build) have same damage as now, or slightly lower (no more thatn 10%)
I can investigate removing the trail, but since I don't see any obvious numbers in the missile that I could change, this might be hard-coded. I know that the trail's inability to poison things is a hardcoded bug, so I think it's unlikely that I'll be able to remove it (surely it would have been done long ago). Currently PlagueJav does require AR to hit things, but if you were thinking of the clouds themselves, then I don't think there's much I can do, since those are launched by the jav on impact. Let me know if you really had the clouds in mind. If you'd like a 4th skill to synergize with the other poison skills, let me know what you had in mind. Perhaps it was the PFury skill mentioned below.
Hommit wrote:
5) some new fun skill? for now i have only this half-assed idea: Poison fury (lol). copy LF mechanic and animation, then recolor it to green and psn damage (equaling to plag jav with 80 pts spent, remember its over-time). psn bolts leave NO trail or clouds. if dmg seems too hight, nerf it by up to 30-40% (but dont make useless...). and it needs some cool sound :)
Maybe nerf it all in some other aspect so it's not OP.
I'm not sure this skill will be different enough from PlagueJav to be worth implementing:
1) Both are ranged skills
2) Both create an explosion-effect on impact
3) Both poison enemies
4) Their damages do not stack with each other or with themselves (Monsters can be hit by multiple LFury bolts, but nothing can be hit by multiple poison sources - be it from different skills or different missiles of the same skill). Sometimes I hear contradictions to this, but I'm not confident in those test results. The closest confirmed thing I can think of is casting Venom on yourself and then launching a PJav. In skills.txt PJav has SrcDam = 128 (include 100% of the regular attack damage to this skill), so I believe any poison effect added to attack (charms, Venom, etc) will be applied to the critter hit by the PJav (not the clouds, since those are simply launched by the PJav).
Hommit wrote:
ps: it seems alot of things was simplified over time. so far: countess doesn't required for andi anymore, big level with hard enemys before andi removed too, maggot staff simply laying in chest near boss like in vanilla (gasp!) not in isolated red-portal room, and so on... i'd bet ardual and arcane sanc was dumbed down too.
why?
It's been a while since I've played a recent patch online, but surely some of the things you mention are caused by an improper install? I can see a change like removing Countess quest from the Tobial portal to Andy, but I've never heard of someone requesting that the Maggot portal to the Staff be removed. Perhaps post somewhere else if you fine other oddities with Ardual or Arcane Sanctuary, and people will be able to confirm if those things were expected.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:39 pm 

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Quote:
I'm not sure this skill will be different enough from PlagueJav to be worth implementing

The basic idea behind this was that PJav to be boss skill (small cloud, no trail - so for single targets), while PF is trash skill (i really liked my LF ama, but she can't anything at bosses... kinda sucks when all that is left for you is to wait for ur party to kill them - single target LF dmg is crap. not sure about LBolt damage cause don't remeber, but afair too) Well, psn mechanic works against that, pity.
Quote:
but surely some of the things you mention are caused by an improper install?

So far everything works as it ahould, afaik. Portal wasn't removed, but staff was in chest before portal, chest IN portal just dropped some crap. Thankfully, ardual and arcane was ok (and i still remeber correct path he-he :) . but omg, those iron golems was the death of me, psn imun too :x )


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:21 pm 

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if warcry on a barb is 1/2 phys and magic damage I think tk on a sorc should be also.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Delta wrote:
if warcry on a barb is 1/2 phys and magic damage I think tk on a sorc should be also.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:33 am 

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How about cold-based traps for sin? :idea:
1) first "throwable" trap - recolored fireblast (don't have any better idea unfornately). bonus if it's posssible to add frost nova effect upon explosion.
2) middle "weak aoe" trap - trap that shoots frozen orbs. its good aoe for early game, but its damage per bolt quite low.
3) main "linear type" trap - arctic blast.
Damage progression (with synergies) can be copied straight from fire traps simply as is(FB->CB, WoF->FO, WoI->AB), graphic, aside from "cold blast", already exist; so very little work has to be done.
Either replace blade thingies in skill tree (no one uses them anyway), or add alongside them (but that be somewhat crowded)

Another point: maybe equalize traps level across the tree?
Also, remove prereqs for DS, since it doesnt have any synergies. This way it can be usable as support in some sort melee sin or whatever.
A quick mock-up of all that:
Image

What do you think?

ps: Hmmm.I realized that i was somewhat wrong on "little work". True, on trap itself it's not much, but then it would require going over all sin items and such, that have -enemy% fire and light, and add there -cold% too.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Thank you for the mock-up, icon considerations, balancing considerations, and item mod considerations.

Without testing, I can't be sure of whether or not things can be easily implemented, particularly since the Assassin and Druid characters seem to have the most hard-coded limitations of all the characters (although every character seems to have some oddities).

Implementation
1) ColdBlast - This should be possible, despite FireBlast being a relatively complicated spell (3 missiles required, some involving fancy HitFunctions). The final missile is the one that does damage as an explosion, so it might be possible to replace it with a nova. In the worst case, the effect of a Nova or an Explosion is the same (equal damage to all things in a radius), so you'd just be losing out on a preferred graphic.
2) FrozenOrb Trap - This should be easily possible, since a trap's missile is easily changed. It should be a case of cloning FOrb and giving it to a Sentry summon.
3) ABlast Trap - Same solution as (2).

Criticism
1) You mentioned that no one uses the phys-element traps. Currently their effects are similar to the ones you propose (BSentinel is a small AoE that is sort of throwable (it walks to a location of your choice), BFury is linear (like the ABlast example but without the convenience of having a summon cast it for you), and BShield is also a small AoE). These are some of the most unique skills in the game (BShield is an aura that lets you leach, BSentinel is a summon that inherits your DeadlyStrike% and weapon damage, BFury converts any weapon into a missile weapon, etc), so it would be a shame to lose them. I think it would be a very good idea to make these skills viable by discussing their weaknesses and correcting them.
2) The cold traps change would convert the Trap Assassin's elements from Fire + Lightning + Physical to Fire + Lightning + Cold (same as Sorc). Since the new combination of elements matches the Sorceress, I think people will view that as a bad change.

Would people prefer changed blade traps, or the new cold traps? In a private version of HU I made these changes to the blade traps:
1) BSentinel - Removed NextHit delay (so it's a DPS skill). Duration 4.2sec +0.2s/Lvl (this is close to my versions of Blizzard, Meteor, etc). Damage balanced to about 1/5Weapon +80% of standard AoE skill damage per second.
2) BFury - Synergizes BurstOfSpeed with 2%Pierce per level (so level 20 Blades pierce targets 40% of the time, equipment exists to bring this up to 90%). Damage is 1/5Weapon +40% standard AoE. 4 Blades per second. ARating bonus balanced to be similar to most attack skills.
3) BShield - Damage 3/5Weapon +40% standard AoE.

I mention the changes I made just as a starting point for discussion though, since those skills aren't used together like they are in HU. Those changes made them worthwhile and balanced in my opinion, so might help people come up with ideas for HU.

All that aside, I don't see a problem with removing the skill prerequisites to DeathSentry, or most skills for that matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:44 pm 

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My main complains about BSentinel is that it is awkward to use (well, maybe im just not used to it...) and not auto-aiming. BShield fucks up boss killing/red portals, beside very small damage radius, which is dangerous. BFury is ok.

I never used and saw anyone to use blades, so unfornately i can't comment on that. And phys dmg req hi-lvl amplify to be viable on hell... Is it even possible to have phys pierce (not amp)?
Maybe, just maybe, if its possible to give sin some useful skill, that would also act as sort of amp (but for sin only), make BSent more easily controlled, and (must have) fix BShield bug, also inrease radius, then phys trap sin can be pretty interesting. just brainstorimg.

Cold traps then can be fitted in holes.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:48 pm 
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BShield breaking red portals is certainly a valid issue to justify removing the skill. The range is customizable, but probably kept small so that it matches the graphic. Possible solutions I think might work would be:
1) Replace it with one of the proposed cold skills. Perhaps keep the element as physical damage (perhaps a Blade Fury Sentry?).
2) Reduce the damage so that it's less likely to be the killing blow against a boss, and increase the radius significantly so that the damage output hasn't changed (i.e. it keeps it's balance). It might be nicer and safer for trash clearing this way.

I understand that phys damage is currently a liability, particularly in Hell difficulty. I have not heard of any changes in that regard for the next patch. Perhaps in the future there can be a nice balance such that when a monster has 50% resistance to all damage, DeadlyStrike at 100% is equivalent to -50%Res (making it easier to balance phys-damage with elemental, since I do not know of a way of making phys pierce). For now, keep in mind that BFury will proc onStrike mods like AmpDamage.

I think Blade skills aren't used anymore because back around HU v1.12 they were too strong (capable of life leach at range with very high damage and attack speed), and the correction might have been an overcompensation. Perhaps we need some people to play around with them again so that they can give specific improvement suggestions for them. When I considered what changes I'd like to make, I mainly remembered that BSentinel's one second HitDelay was annoying (I'm not a fan of HitDelays in general - I removed it from ShockWeb too).


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:19 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:23 am
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I wonder, is it possible to take frozen orb animation and make it shoot throwing stars and not icicles? Kind of... blade orb :) And then put that on trap.
BShield, is a nice skill of itself, so i dont know about removing that while keeping rest of blades skills (just don't use that on bosses, problem solved). I'd go for option 2, but lets not reduce dmg too much (hight phys res, remember?) btw, will it proc ctc amp and whatever on strike/attack? Meh, there is not much of hi-lvl items with lots of procs anyway...

For BFury trap, i guess it need to have 100% pierce (like elemental), and maybe increase charges count to 10 or maybe even 15, to offset for projectile size (that lightning is huuuuge...).
The only concern i have is that BFury and BFury trap will be very lookalike, and that would be boring maybe?
Otherwise, that 2 and BShield aura will make pretty solid build.

ps: can/will be venom applied to traps? it's damage applied to weap, and trap based on that...

pps: any hero editor works in HU to test in single?


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Hommit wrote:
I wonder, is it possible to take frozen orb animation and make it shoot throwing stars and not icicles? Kind of... blade orb :) And then put that on trap.
Yup, should be no problem (clone skill, replace the "CelFile" field). Personally, I'm not confident that being able to plant some traps that themselves spawn FrozenOrb clones is a good idea (counters, balance, balance, etc), but if the community wanted to try it out, then I don't mind implementing it provided I've got the time.
Hommit wrote:
I'd go for option 2...
Perhaps 1/2 damage with double the area of effect (currently radius is 6, so set it to 8 or 9; 1/2 the SrcDmg field and damage fields).
Regarding your questions about the mods that transfer to the blade traps, here are some links (BSentinel, BFury, BShield) that include some information. I'm not 100% in agreement with it though, since, I'm pretty sure my testing of BladeFury showed that PierceTarget works. Perhaps later I'll retest (I might not have confirmed that the piercing missile was more than just a graphic). Also, ignore when they mention how much weapon damage transfers, since that number is whatever we want.
Hommit wrote:
For BFury trap...
I think it's possible for that Sentry summon to be given 100%PierceTarget, and for it to release it's charges quite quickly (so it would be Blade Fury, but you could plant it and run away, and without buffs from your gear). For now, we may as well let the community decide if they want a new skill, or if they'd prefer a change to BShield. If they want the Blade Sentry skill, then people can consider if it should be a phys-damage clone of Lightning Sentry or something else.
Hommit wrote:
pps: any hero editor works in HU to test in single?
I don't know of any. When testing, I use the '-act5' command line argument to generate a level 33 character (i.e. "-direct -txt -act5"). I use cube recipes to generate whatever item I'm testing, and I modify a monster (usually Zombie) in Bloodmoor if I'm testing something related to monster stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:23 am
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Quote:
Yup, should be no problem

cool!
Quote:
here are some links

ty, i'll lkook into that and some other places i might remeber from my diablo days
Quote:
For now, we may as well let the community decide if they want a new skill,

Now, the only problem to lure ppl on forums... :roll:
I'll try asking ingame. Point them here, or maybe create some topic with variants of suggestions?
Quote:
I use cube recipes to generate whatever item I'm testing,

Eh, i'm no good at modding :-(


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:41 pm
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Brevan wrote:
Hommit wrote:
I wonder, is it possible to take frozen orb animation and make it shoot throwing stars and not icicles? Kind of... blade orb :) And then put that on trap.
Yup, should be no problem (clone skill, replace the "CelFile" field). Personally, I'm not confident that being able to plant some traps that themselves spawn FrozenOrb clones is a good idea (counters, balance, balance, etc), but if the community wanted to try it out, then I don't mind implementing it provided I've got the time.
Hommit wrote:
I'd go for option 2...
Perhaps 1/2 damage with double the area of effect (currently radius is 6, so set it to 8 or 9; 1/2 the SrcDmg field and damage fields).

I'm not 100% in agreement with it though, since, I'm pretty sure my testing of BladeFury showed that PierceTarget works. Perhaps later I'll retest (I might not have confirmed that the piercing missile was more than just a graphic). Also, ignore when they mention how much weapon damage transfers, since that number is whatever we want.
Hommit wrote:
For BFury trap...
I think it's possible for that Sentry summon to be given 100%PierceTarget, and for it to release it's charges quite quickly (so it would be Blade Fury, but you could plant it and run away, and without buffs from your gear). For now, we may as well let the community decide if they want a new skill, or if they'd prefer a change to BShield. If they want the Blade Sentry skill, then people can consider if it should be a phys-damage clone of Lightning Sentry or something else.


I think this is a great discussion. I did quite a bit of testing a few patches ago with a bladesin. Its been a strange progression for them like years ago they were quite op, then scaled back to a mediocre killer using venom. I haven't tested them this patch, but I might do that now. I posted a thread a while back about blade sentry was pretty useless. Blade fury is a good skill as it is imo, you are able to pierce and with fast cast rates and amp you can do fast damage from safety. I think it is well balanced for the mid level skill tree. The problem is having that as your main attack endgame with little aoe for blade shield, leaves you needing additional damage which I found only useful to get from venom, especially in HC. The AR synergy on venom was a good thought since blade fury worked the same as double throw for a barb in regards to AR. You have another issue when you build the sin as a caster for blade fury and your higher synergy skill requires close combat. The three skills didn't mesh well together for me. I proposed making blade sentinel a faster more aoe type of attack that doesn't go straight and back. I thought making a weaker trash killing attack in which 4 sentinels came out from the trap one 12 oclock, 3 oclock, 6 oclock, and 9 oclock each moving out 1/4 the screen distance they currently do and then each turning a 90 angle clockwise and going another 1/4 would be a great low damage dealing trash control, I thought this would balance well with blade fury since it is a single target attack (regardless of the pierce).

I am not entirely sure what to do with blade shield though. I havent tested to confirm claw mastery adds damage and critical. If it does, that makes this build even tougher because you need AR too which is synergized with Venom, maybe that should synergized with a different blade skill so you can choose a different combination build like build a tank max claw mastery and depend on blade shield in close combat or play more a caster focus on ar and distance fighting. Something does need to be done with blade shield though.

I even thought you could use it as a type of charge up skill, meaning as you charge into a group in close combat and it hits enemies it creates and additive charge up (similar to tiger strike) that is released when you use blade fury or blade sentinel after taking damage. I think it would make the build super fun to play having to take damage within a 4 yard radius to charge up the other skills.

Just my thoughts. Tell me what you think Brevan because thoughts are great but if the logarithms in the game mechanics wont allow, then its just a dream.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:07 am 
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Delta wrote:
Blade fury is a good skill as it is...The problem is having that as your main attack endgame with little aoe for blade shield...You have another issue when you build the sin as a caster for blade fury and your higher synergy skill requires close combat. The three skills didn't mesh well together for me.
It sounds like the blending of melee (BShield - Tanking gear) with mid-range (BSentinel) and long-range (BFury - Caster gear) skills are requiring different gear, and thus prevent people from enjoying the build as a 3-skill set. Personally, I like the design of skills working together as low-range (high damage) and high-range (low damage), since it means that different situations benefit more from different skills (i.e. variety of gameplay is nice). Similarly, I like the design of low-damage Tank players with high-damage Fragile players since I think it's one of the few reliable ways of promoting teams (i.e. game progression is faster and safer in teams). With that in mind, I think it's fair that wearing Caster gear makes your BFury Sin fragile, but offensively strong; however, her AoE was low and therefore the skill design was unfair.
Delta wrote:
I proposed making blade sentinel a faster more aoe type of attack that doesn't go straight and back.
BSentinel unfortunately is both a summon (a BladeCreeper) and a missile (Blade Creeper - with it's own unique 'pSrvDoFunc' and 'pSrvHitFunc') which means there's quite a bit of hardcoding in it. For example, I can see no way of increasing the radius of the missile's damage effect, but I suppose I could make the summon walk faster, so it would get to your intended target faster. Since this is a summon, you wouldn't be allowed to have another summon (a trap) summon more of them (It would probably crash the game, like when ShadowWarrior used to try to cast ShadowMaster). I believe the only way to make BSentinel do decent AoE is to just cast a few of them moving towards different targets. Just keep in mind that the NextHit delay prevents the monster from taking any further damage from any missile that also has a NextHit delay (my test used ShockWeb with NextHit=30seconds and BSentinel NextHit=1second. Critters hit by the SWeb were immune to BSentinel for 30 seconds rather than 1 second. Pretty sure the test wasn't flawed).

Given my understanding of the situation above, I think we'd all agree that the solution is to improve the AoE of a Caster-geared Bladesin.
1) Keep BSentinel - We like BSentinel's uniqueness, but it has limits on it's AoE since it can only travel from the player's location to the target. We can make it move faster, but it's still not a great AoE for BFury since they both travel from the player to the target (i.e. their AoE overlap). I think the only solution would be to swap the synergy skill from BSentinel to one of the other traps (DeathSentry is available and begging to belong to a skill set), or maybe a Shadow Summon, maybe %PierceTarget given to Fade of BoSpeed, etc. BSentinel gets placed with another set of skill synergies.
2) Replace BSentinel - Since we want an AoE skill, consider one of Hommit's suggestions (physical damage FireBlast clone or BladeOrbTrap). Perhaps a BladeNova type skill (i.e. a phys-damage skill that clones PoisonNova) cast by either the assassin or a Sentry trap. Perhaps a clone of PoisonExplosion (targets a corpse, spews Blades as a Nova, targets at range), although this is basically the same as DeathSentry but not cast by a trap.
Delta wrote:
I am not entirely sure what to do with blade shield though. I havent tested to confirm claw mastery adds damage and critical. If it does, that makes this build even tougher because you need AR too which is synergized with Venom, maybe that should synergize with a different blade skill so you can choose a different combination build like build a tank max claw mastery and depend on blade shield in close combat or play more a caster focus on ar and distance fighting. Something does need to be done with blade shield though.
ARating isn't all that critical if your level is around the monsters' levels. You can get AR effects by debuffing monsters via CoShadows, ITDefence or -%AC (these 2 mods on gear were tested and don't affect boss-flagged monsters), or -AC (this affects bosses), etc. I don't see it brought up often, but all Amazon Bow skills do not improve ARating (yes, this stunningly huge Blizzard bug is confirmed), but few bowzons seem to even notice. I agree that BShield is tough to improve (easier to replace), but perhaps the current idea of doubled AoE with 1/2 Damage will be noticeably easier to use (could always try tripled AoE with 1/3 Damage, or whatever numbers people think would be fun). Considering Hurricane is an easily visualized skill with radius 6 yards, I think most would agree that a 4 yard radius on BShield would be a good start.
Delta wrote:
I even thought you could use it as a type of charge up skill, meaning as you charge into a group in close combat and it hits enemies it creates and additive charge up (similar to tiger strike) that is released when you use blade fury or blade sentinel after taking damage. I think it would make the build super fun to play having to take damage within a 4 yard radius to charge up the other skills.
I've been comparing BShield to an Aura, but it has it's own unique 'SrvDoFunc', meaning that it's plenty hardcoded. Charge-up skills and Finishing skills in general are pretty hard to modify (Despite there being a simple 'finishing' field, I was unable to create a new Finishing skill, so these might be hardcoded to a row). It's likely that only 'SrcDoFunc' 35 (FoFire, CoThunder, BoIce) and 34 (TStrike, CStrike, PhStrike) can be used to generate charge-up skills (func 35 = claw weapon needed? 34 = any melee weapon?). This kind of change may never know reality, although it was neat. Some of the changes to charge-ups that I made in my version of HU that I think worked well was having CobraStrike release a PoisonNova effect on charges 2 and 3, and modifying the movement speed of PheonixStrike's ChaosIce missiles (it's kinda pretty I think - they blast out, circle at around 6 yards, blast in and through, and then circle again before disappearing).


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:12 am 

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FuryCury wrote:
Delta wrote:
if warcry on a barb is 1/2 phys and magic damage I think tk on a sorc should be also.


...... Smoke much weed?


Instead of coming back with a troll ass comment Fury, explain to me in an intelligent, and slightly more insightful, less "I'm a 12 year punk" type of way as to why you believe this is an outrageous thought? I know your not around much anymore, but I have respect for ya. So contribute to this thread called "Organized Suggestion feedback/start of changelog" in an organized and meaningful way. Or don't contribute at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:18 pm 
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I'm all for changing skills and adding new ones, but how about releasing the core gameplay changes already in this new patch you guys have been working on instead of spending another 3-6 months reworking entire skill tabs.

I'm not trying to sound like a turd or an asshole or anything, I appreciate the work everyone has put into this patch, but how long has it been since the last reset? over 6 months atleast.

Lets polish up the changes we have then reset the server and get some players back. Then after that we can spend the next 20 years reworking entire classes.

Love you guys,

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:38 pm 
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resets are normally 1 year apart. No more changes will be made for the patch that is rolling out, but ideas for future changes are always being talked about.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Used to be around 6 months. 1 year is way to long. It's easy to max out a char within 3 months if you play even only a few times a week.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:40 am 
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Delta wrote:
FuryCury wrote:
Delta wrote:
if warcry on a barb is 1/2 phys and magic damage I think tk on a sorc should be also.


...... Smoke much weed?


Instead of coming back with a troll ass comment Fury, explain to me in an intelligent, and slightly more insightful, less "I'm a 12 year punk" type of way as to why you believe this is an outrageous thought? I know your not around much anymore, but I have respect for ya. So contribute to this thread called "Organized Suggestion feedback/start of changelog" in an organized and meaningful way. Or don't contribute at all.


Why only TK sorcs? Why not make all casters 1/2 phys 1/2 magic? TK has no were near the AOE WC does. The skills are completely different. If anything, it would be nova that was changed. Again though, these skills are on the LIGHTNING tree. Propose we remove lightning and make it a magic tree?

Also why take a perfectly good build and completely change it?

Everyone wants to make changes so drastic that it's like playing a completely different game, and not just tweaking/upgrading the one we have. If you want a completely new game, play a different game.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:07 am 

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Quote:
Also why take a perfectly good build and completely change it?

Gotta love those perfectly good unviable builds.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:12 am 
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I had the same thoughts as Fury when I saw that suggestion. If you change TK in that way, with no real reason to, you might as well change every other skill to do hybrid damage.

It just seems unnecessary.

Angel: we are not talking about non-viable builds here. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Used to be around 6 months. 1 year is way to long. It's easy to max out a char within 3 months if you play even only a few times a week.


sorry for just spouting off generic answers. Some people who have been around for longer than I have still have no idea what goes on around here.

Some do take a lot longer than 3 months to get their chars all ready and argue that resets come too quickly (hi pappy). If our community wasn't so small already I think having a non-ladder would be a great idea; then do more frequent ladder resets. Though in hindsight we lost a few players last reset anyways

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:56 am 

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Angel wrote:
Quote:
Also why take a perfectly good build and completely change it?

Gotta love those perfectly good unviable builds.


I agree its not a viable playthrough build.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:09 am 
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I think just adding a little more low and mid level elemental pierce gear (not poison, as I think it is fine with the way it works and the other options those kind of builds have) would help untwinked elemental characters get started without having to rely heavily on conviction or LR early on, spells which aren't normally available until act3 normal.

Once these builds get past norm baal it becomes a lot easier to farm up/craft enough gear to get decent pierce.

However if we add more low level pierce gear then trash becomes even easier than it already is, so maybe reducing normal boss elemental resistances (once again, not poison, only fire/cold/lightning) is a better solution.

Those are my thoughts, maybe I'm just a scrub that doesn't know shit though.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:14 am 

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The problem with most builds in this game is they're so far behind the strong ones that the literal only reason to play them is for flavor or handicap.

The thing about that is, flavor should be a choice between relatively equal builds, not a completely eclipsed build that has no real playability.

And for handicap, real build shouldn't be set to a handicap. When I first started playing all those years back I hit a ton of pitfall builds and it basically took the fun out of the game. If there weren't players to help/guide me in the initial stage(back then, the server was populated quite well) I wouldn't even of bothered playing anymore. But now there aren't players. I log in a few times every day and I never even see games up.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:34 am 
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Yeah I agree there are a lot of builds that are really hard to play, I mean every time I log on now I see nothing but druids and poison amazons.

Increasing the teir 1 and 2 damage on skills like TK, Lightning, Ice Bolt, Fire Bolt, Lightning Bolt (That amazon lightning jav skills that no one uses) and adding more low level gear with resistance pierce would help a lot. These are just a few examples of builds that need help off the top of my head, I know there are more.

One problem is that any changes to gear and bosses will also make the current strong builds stronger so buffing the weak builds one by one will probably be necessary.

However, I don't think adding hybrid damage to elemental skills is a good idea, when what you want is maximum pierce, having half your damage be magic or physical will only make you weaker vs a boss at the end of the day.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:55 am 
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Delta wrote:
Angel wrote:
Quote:
Also why take a perfectly good build and completely change it?

Gotta love those perfectly good unviable builds.


I agree its not a viable playthrough build.


CB/TK/ES is a VERY strong build when done right. I've tanked LOS champ wyrms and done the LOS necro with a TK sorc.


No problem soloing hell Ice Dragon....without using any pots.
Image

This one was from a few ladders ago.
Image

This was a remake going lightning instead of TK. Better range, but the damage is more consistent with TK.
Image

I've rolled a CB/tk sorc as my first character after a reset, she was THE dps dealer 90% of the time. Once she was able to farm soj's and some +mana charms, she was a dps tank with ES. Can easily tank norm darkness while amped when everyone else is dying to amp nados. The only time this build took a shit was vs manaburn and poison pre decent gear. Baal's horfrost owns the manabulb no matter how much you have. Other than that, this build is the best of both worlds.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:16 am 

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Fury,

First off, thanks, I appreciated this reply and its input a lot more than your prior post. I understand what you're saying here. I want to modify my suggestion to 1/2 light and 1/2 magic. Here was how I came to my perspective:

Image

Quote:
Why only TK sorcs? Why not make all casters 1/2 phys 1/2 magic?

You can see from the chart above other casters have other things, such as summons or a defensive skill they can add to their build. Sorcs don't on a TK/ES build maxing synergies and again let me clarify I am suggesting 1/2 light and 1/2 magic. Similar to a barb's 1/2 phys and 1/2 magic on warcry.

Quote:
TK has no were near the AOE WC does.The skills are completely different.

You are correct, and it it shouldn't because a barb is a tank character with life and a defense buff they can use in closer combat. Sorc doesn't have that so it would make sense she can use this from a distance. In this way I would expect those skills to be different, but balancing in a way for a barb (tank) vs a Sorc (cast). This would help make the sorc a little more viable during a true playthrough.

Quote:
If anything, it would be nova that was changed.

What do you propose here?

Quote:
Again though, these skills are on the LIGHTNING tree. Propose we remove lightning and make it a magic tree?

True, it is on the lightning tree. And the 1/2 magic applied through Warcry is on the WarCry Tree, not the Magic Tree either. The only other magic damage done by the barb is on Combat Tree. So why did an additional magic damage skill have to go on the Warcry Tree? if we follow your logic, there you are saying you would have to have a Magic Tree for every attack that has Magic Damage on it? That's nonsensical. You wouldn't need a "magical tree" anymore than any of the other skills with magic damage have on other classes.

Quote:
Also why take a perfectly good build and completely change it?

I understand you think its perfect from your perspective. But taking that same viewpoint, why did we add 1/2 magic damage to warcry? It also wasn't a perfectly good build that got changed?

Quote:
Everyone wants to make changes so drastic that it's like playing a completely different game

I mean I don't feel like this is a "Drastic" change. Or again no more drastic then adding the magic damage to warcry. But honestly what wrong with making changes on a MOD? I mean isn't that what its all about? Making changes to improve and modify while also keeping engagement of the players? Or are we to keep builds the exact same forever?

Quote:
and not just tweaking/upgrading the one we have. If you want a completely new game, play a different game.

First off, changing 1/2 tk to magic, or even to physical is a tweak. Its crazy to me that you take that one change as some kind of signal I am suggesting the ENTIRE game change.

Hopefully this gives you and everyone else a little more insight into why I suggest this. I mean I prefer to play through with a char, maybe you can do that on SC with the build as it currently is, but you cant really do that untwinked on HC. I think this little change would help this balance a little more while not changing the overall build too much. I am curious as to what others think.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:27 am 
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As i said before changing any elemental skill to hybrid damage will make it weaker overall, unless you just add a boat load of damage to it instead of convert its current damage. It worked for WC because as a WC barb you never got physical pierce, because there is no such stat. Only amp and decrep, which can be gotten along side magic pierce with no problems.

I am 100% for buffing sorcs and your infograph there shows exactly why, but I don't think 1/2 magic dmg is the way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:06 pm 

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Since sorc doen't have mag pierce, this will only weaken tk, unless u plus mag dmg to existing one. And ES is very goood def (except mburn, sadly)

Ur chart missing the fact that, some other classes miss ele damage, for which sorc have 3 points. and it is possible to max FA instead of warmth. But sure, sorc can have more def (or not, since its basically glass cannon class which needs some1 tanking)


Last edited by Hommit on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:13 pm 

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Hommit wrote:
Since sorc doen't have mag pierce, this will only weaken tk, unless u plus mag dmg to existing one. And ES is very goood def (except mburn, sadly)

Ur chart mnissing the fact that, some other classes miss ele damage, for which sorc have 3 points. and it is possible to max FA instead of warmth. BUt wure, sorc can have more def (or not, since its basically glass cannon class which needs some1 tanking)


your right I could add a column for elemental damage. But the scope of what I am trying to understand is why some chars would get 1 or 2 types of magic damage and a sorc and druid get none. I mean when you think about it ES and Tk are not really lightning attacks. TK used to be the equivalent of what a mentalsin is now.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Not every class needs magic damage. TK sorcs are one of the strongest sorc builds right now. Other skills like inferno and firewall need to looked at before TK.

Sorcs are one trick ponies when it comes to damage types, that's just the way they have been ever since 1.10. On bnet 1.13 you can make a tri elemental sorc that kills everything easily, but in HU you have to focus on one element in order to deal good damage. We all know this however, but it brings me to my next point:

Since sorcs are stuck dealing one damage type and they have no summons and no utility skills maybe we can have fire/cold/lit mastery give 1% pierce per hard point or 1% pierce per 2 soft points. This would give sorcs more room to gear a bit more defensively if they choose.

This change will make 100% offensive geared sorcs even stronger, but I don't think that matters when damage is all a sorc has. As the game currently is something like a druid gets HP buff/summons offensive spells that are just was strong as most sorc spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:38 pm 

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Quote:
give 1% pierce per hard point or 1% pierce per 2 soft points
Maybe some cross-elemental synergies? to make possible for two element sorc or something. but i fear the will be not enuf skills anyway...

is it possible to make conditional synergies? like "u get +x% damage if u have/don't have that skill or level of skill"... probly not without some heavy code editing :( or even with.

orrrr maybe have some skills, that can only be max 1 lvl (or just not add anything after that), and move that cross-elemental mechanic/synergies on this skills.

[edit] i forgot! it is actually possible. 1 time i was playing in median, there was this uber skills, and u can select only 1 of them, other 2 would become locked after that.
so the rough idea is to have bi-elemental mastery skill (cold-fire, cold-light, light-fire). those masteries, when picked, would lock other and standart single masteries.

standard build goes for 80pt in single tree (main skill and 2 synergies +mastery)
if, for example, we go cold-fire, we put 40 skill in cold for 2 main skills (thats 1 synergy between them),then we put 20 for c-f mast - it gives +cold% like standard cold mastery, and +fire% as standart fire mastery, and works as second synergy (maybe stronger a bit to offset for missing third synergy) for both cold and fire skills. then we put 40pt for 2 main fire skills

to make single element build viable (no one gonna do them if we just made 2-elem just like that eh? :) ) boost them somehow, like give single elemental masteries additional summons(like fire elemental does/improves dps, light elemental imroves def and cold elemental curses monsters, or something) or def spells.

something like this, but then it would be one hell of a mess of tons of synergies and skills... :?

ps: man, i'm gotta sleep.. zzzz... ^there is for sure tons of typos and whatsnot


Last edited by Hommit on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:57 pm 
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I would LOVE dual elemental builds to be viable for sorcs, but that would require a lot of editing and testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Hommit wrote:
is it possible to make conditional synergies? like "u get +x% damage if u have/don't have that skill or level of skill"
Yes, synergy fields accept formulas, and formulas include a Conditional mechanism, so conditional synergies are possible.
EG:
(skill('someSkill'.lvl) > 0) ? (yes result) : (no result)
Hommit wrote:
...I was playing in median, there was this uber skills, and u can select only 1 of them, other 2 would become locked after that.
I read about something like this. I haven't tried it, but there is a field for how many skill points are needed to raise the level of a skill (it's typically '1'), and I read that the field can accept formulas, so in some mods that field checks the level of some skill and the result is either a small number (so you can raise the skill level) or a very large one (so you can't raise the skill level).

With regards to some of the recent comments about magic damage and stuff, we should keep in mind that the main special thing about magic damage is that monsters in HU have a relatively low magic resistance. If we want more magic damage skills, then we are essentially asking for a reduction in monster resistances. Similarly when we are requesting a second element for Sorcs, then we are essentially saying that we want to face fewer immunities. Both sound like fine solutions to me if the problem is that people are not able to use teamwork to get around the problem (HU monsters were made tough to promote teamwork). Its worth acknowledging that another solution would be to increase the population base. More people could be achieved through advertising the game among people you want to play with, or by not dividing the current community between softcore and hardcore or between the different difficulty levels. However the goal of getting more players around is achieved, a good way to keep them around is to actively appreciate their efforts on your team, and ignore when they show a lack of appreciation for yours. The game becomes more interesting when you show people how to play it well.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:36 pm 
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I think immunities are fine, the only problem with them are sorceresses lack of utility spells when dealing with them.

Every other class has skills that offer utility vs bosses immune to their build or innate tankiness to help tank the boss.

Yeah this mod was made to promote team work but that just isn't the way it is anymore. Not enough people play. I have been duoing this mod with Wolfs for the last 2-3 years that I've been playing it on and off, because the population is so low and the timezone differences/work/school schedules of the players we do have dont match for everyone.

That being said. Id be fine if the maximum resistance acts bosses could have were set to 99. It really sucks being a Lit sorc vs Meph, etc etc.

Edit: or even set them at a breakable level ie 100-107 ish

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:11 pm 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
I think immunities are fine, the only problem with them are sorceresses lack of utility spells when dealing with them.

Every other class has skills that offer utility vs bosses immune to their build or innate tankiness to help tank the boss.


This was more my point to my posts. I feel like ES should be lower on the lightning tree and instead of making tk the synergy to ES, make it like fire mastery, lightning mastery, or cold mastery. This way the damage absorbing properties of you mana bulb can be applied to other builds or you can choose to go with a skill like TK that does magic damage (utility spell against immunities) but is at the cost of a synergy to your other skills.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:39 pm 

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Quote:
This way the damage absorbing properties of you mana bulb can be applied to other builds

this i can see. maybe even incorporate that tk synergy of decreased mana per damage into skill itself, along with %absorbed (every1 will max masteries anyway. formula is smth like 1.3-0.02*ESlvl mana per dmg absorbed). and maybe even add warmth to the mix lol :roll:(meh, then it will be imba)
Quote:
or you can choose to go with a skill like TK that does magic damage (utility spell against immunities) but is at the cost of a synergy to your other skills.

but this not. again: what synergies for that "magic tk" will be? no? then its damage will suck. and what about mag pierce on items anyway (currently none)?


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Hmmm....I really like the idea of removing ES synergy from TK and making it a self synergy.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:55 pm 
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I've done a fair bit of experimentation with EShield, and it's pretty flexible (arbitrary formula allowed) in these areas:
1) The percent of damage diverted to mana.
2) The amount of mana that damage removes (in 1/16 increments only, i.e. 32=2MP, 8=0.5MP).
3) The duration.
4) Other buffs active while the EShield is in effect.

If people want a change in one of those areas, it should be pretty easy, just let me know what you had in mind.

In my personal version of HU, I made these changes (just an example):
1) %Dmg redirected = 26% + 1%/Lvl + 1%/ChillingArmor + 1%/ShiverArmor. This has a maximum of 66% damage redirected.
2) MPDmg = 32 - 1/2Lvl - 1/ChillingArmor - 1/ShiverArmor. This has a minimum of 8 (8/16 MP lost per damage redirected).
3) EShield adds %PoisLengthReduced 6% + 1%/Lvl and %FBRate +12% + 2%/Lvl.

I've read that there is a fix for the manaburn bug, but it required code editing, and I do not have the tools or specific information required to do this. A potentially more time consuming solution is to simply remove the manaburn mod from named critters, but then give more creatures the "mana" damage type. Critters heal themselves with the MP drained from you.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:12 pm 
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I think just making ES a self synergy instead of TK would be a nice and simple way to help sorcs out.

TK builds will still be the #1 tank sorc build because you get damage and defense with only 80pts and you can then max FA or Warmth, compared to other builds that would need to sacrifice damage early to beef up their ES.

I think it would be a great change.

I don't think Mana burn mobs should be removed, because ES is extremely strong. There needs to be a downside to using it.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:07 pm 

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Quote:
In my personal version of HU, I made these changes (just an example):
1) %Dmg redirected = 26% + 1%/Lvl + 1%/ChillingArmor + 1%/ShiverArmor. This has a maximum of 66% damage redirected.
2) MPDmg = 32 - 1/2Lvl - 1/ChillingArmor - 1/ShiverArmor. This has a minimum of 8 (8/16 MP lost per damage redirected).
3) EShield adds %PoisLengthReduced 6% + 1%/Lvl and %FBRate +12% + 2%/Lvl.


I think you should keep mana burn, and add the %FBR equation you list in item 3 above to ES.

Then have warmth add the poison length reduced you listed in 3 above (sorcs going base life all mana will need warmth and the pois dur reduce)

Remove tk as a synergy for ES damage to mana and instead make the synergy warmth OR frozen armor (maxing one of these gets you to X% Damage deflected to mana) (maxing both gets you higher X% deflected to mana). This will allow for 2 types of sorcs:

1 Ones going all mana needing warmth and pois length reduc
2 Sorcs going half mana half life focusing on DR

Make TK similar as tiered magic damage that Mind Blast gets for mentalsins (psychic hammer gives +30% times 2 for mind blast). So make fire, cold, lightning mastery (only 1) give the same +30% times 2.

Or make fire, cold, light mast give +30% each (so a sorc could go all magic damage with es/warmth/FA and two elemental masteries. This will give a sorc something to deal with elemental immunes.

By doing this we will allow

1) Allow an 80 point build with max ES, warmth or FA, 1 maxed elemental mastery, 1 maxed elemental skill AND give the choice of using the last 20pts in either an additional elemental synergy or a decent tk/magic damage (similar to 1 pointing zerk on a barb).
2) allow an 80 point build with max es, warmth, FA, tk, and one maxed elemental mastery, allowing the choice to max an additional mastery for more magic damage on tk or maxing one elemental skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:08 pm 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
I think just making ES a self synergy instead of TK would be a nice and simple way to help sorcs out.

TK builds will still be the #1 tank sorc build because you get damage and defense with only 80pts and you can then max FA or Warmth, compared to other builds that would need to sacrifice damage early to beef up their ES.

I think it would be a great change.

I don't think Mana burn mobs should be removed, because ES is extremely strong. There needs to be a downside to using it.


besides mana burn there is magic maiden too.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:17 pm 
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So I was looking at Windforce again today. The database site has old damage values listed, but correct properties. This is why I was really confused as to why people mentioned Windforce being weak compared to Eaglhorn, and to the old Windforce.

Here is what I find.

Property / EH / WF
-Base speed: 10 / 10
-Sockets possible: 1 / 3
-Dex bonus: 30 / 40-50
-Max damage calculated, no jewels: 63(1+7)*1.5=756 / 70(1+5)=420 or 70*(1+5)*1.5=630 if eth
-Max damage calculated with 50%ED jewels: 63(1+7.5)=803 / 70(1+6.5)=525 or 70*(106.5)*1.5=787 if eth
-Max damage with +20max jewels: (63+20)*(1+7)*1.5=996/ (70+60)*(1+5)=780 or (70+60)*(1+5)*1.5=1170 if eth
-Max damage with +15max/+40%ED: (63+15)*(1+7.4)*1.5=983 / (70+45)*(1+6.2)=828 or (70+45)*(1+6.2)*1.5=1242

Old WF values
-max damage, no jewels: 70(1+4)*1.5+300=825
-max damage, 50%ED jewel: 70(1+4.5)*1.5+300=877
-max damage, +20max jewel: (70+20)*(1+4)*1.5+300=975
-max damage, +15max/40%ED jewels: (70+15)(1+4.4)*1.5+300=988
-Dex bonus: 40
-Str bonus: 20

So, without jewels, yes WF blows comparatively. With good, but not insane jewels, it is comparative to the old WF (which was always eth) without jewels. If it spawns eth now, it is better hands down than either the old WF or EH.

There was discussion of adding eth back to it, or changing the bow altogether. If the former was done, the damage needs scaled back somewhat.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:56 pm 

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windforce seems to be plenty of strong as-is. an eth one with some good phys facets is a powerhouse, although they are quite rare. my multishot amazon is plenty strong and uses an eth wf right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Yeah I think its fine as it is. Like Pious said an eth one with good jewels is an amazing bow. Good damage good ias and all res. Solid bow all around. Idk why people are complaining.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Ok. I am keeping it the way it is and sending stuff

Edit: SENT!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:44 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
Ok. I am keeping it the way it is and sending stuff

Edit: SENT!!!


Thanks for all your work kramuti.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:19 pm 
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muchos gracias kramuti

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:57 am 
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when is reset coming out? did some changes to bonearmor tree,and need some feedbacks, did lots of testing but i need second opinions... could be added to next reset if approved. I need some deeper testing versus X situations but overall I found it ok.

overall changes to tree:
- removed synergy from armor to wall and prison, now those 2 skills do not receive bonus from armor BUT armor still receives bonus from wall and prison.
- pumped base HP of both and added some resistances, wall stronger to PHY but weaker to ELE, prison stronger vs ELE but a bit weaker versus PHY.

bonewall
- Added thorns aura from irongolem, does some dmg to the attackers (need testing.... regular +thorns sucks)
- duration reduced to 10 seconds, 1 second cooldown

boneprison
- replaced it with bonecage, no longer stops missiles (cloned&edited skill)
- duration is 30 seconds, but has a bigger cooldown, 6 seconds


tested with lvl63 skills* and they do ok, wont get that high ingame but i need opinions and other testers.

edit:

FILES
http://www.4shared.com/rar/j3hdpTnz/Bon ... rison.html?


SNAPSHOT
http://www.4shared.com/photo/nxJjku_h/S ... ot003.html?


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:06 am 
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Thx Kramuti!

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:18 am 

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Hey, I just started playing this mod and gateway very recently and heard that there was going to be a reset soon. Is there going to be any reworking or tweaking of set pieces or at least their full set bonuses? I feel like most of them are underwhelming after the early to mid stages of Normal, especially for the Amazon and Assassin builds, with uniques around the same level that are obvious better choices even with a set bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
I think just making ES a self synergy instead of TK would be a nice and simple way to help sorcs out.
Alrighty, a +1 vote for replacing TK with EShield in the formula that determines how much mana is lost per damage.
OLD : 32-skill('Telekinesis'.blvl)
NEW : 32-blvl
Note that this would hinder sorcs that want to keep the %Dmg-to-mana number low while improving the efficiency. If there are a couple more votes for this by this evening, then I will make the change.

Delta wrote:
add the %FBR equation you listed... to ES.
Then have warmth add the poison length reduced you listed ...
The changes I made don't necessarily balance well to the current version of HU (where these mods are plentiful and powerful on gear). Nonetheless, if a few more people want this and make it known by this evening, then I'll implement it.
Delta wrote:
Remove tk as a synergy for ES damage to mana and instead make the synergy warmth OR frozen armor (maxing one of these gets you to X% Damage deflected to mana) (maxing both gets you higher X% deflected to mana). This will allow for 2 types of sorcs:

1 Ones going all mana needing warmth and pois length reduc
2 Sorcs going half mana half life focusing on DR
Currently TK's synergy with EShield only improves the efficiency of the shield, so that you lose fewer MP per damage sent to mana. Only levels in EShield will increase the %DmgRedirected. This means that if a sorc wants to keep her %DmgRedirected low, she needs to keep her EShield level low. Option (1) above is possible just by raising the level of EShield and Warmth (40 total points) and using gear with %PLReduced. Option (2) above is possible by either not raising the level of EShield (consider using charges of it), maxing TK (20-21 total points), and using gear with DR/MDR. With this in mind, both options are currently available but not well balanced relative to each other, but option (2) probably needs a method of requiring more skill points, especially since you're getting an offensive skill in the mix. Unfortunately I have no idea how viable those options currently are, so I don't know if option 1 is worth double the skill point investment (in which case it would be balanced).
Currently EShield's %DmgRedirected progresses at this rate:
Code:
LVL %DmgRedirected
1    25%
2    30%
8    60%
9    62%
16   76%
17   77%
35   95% (maxed)
If people want that progression changed, they should comment soon.
Delta wrote:
TK...
If others want changes to TK's element, synergies, or something else, then I'll make the change as requested. At the moment, it doesn't sound well balanced since the EShield changes sound like they'd make the sorc a decent tank, while a MagicDmg TK would make her almost never face immunities while being able to fight stuff from quite a long distance (kind of like combining GuidedArrow + MagicArrow). She can even teleport too. At least with TK as lightning damage, she needs to gear up with -%LitRes gear and partner with something than handles lightning immune critters.

Wolfs wrote:
when is reset coming out?
I've been unavailable for a few days longer than expected, but I intend to get my part of the file work (skills editing) done by tomorrow.
Wolfs wrote:
bonewall
- Added thorns aura from irongolem, does some dmg to the attackers...
If this summon is stronger to phys (you gave it %physRes, right?), then it's thorns would not be as effective (Thorns only reflects the damage that wasn't resisted).
Wolfs wrote:
I was unable to determine which link would get the files for me. Consider using Dropbox and linking directly to the file. You would still need to make an account, but people downloading the file wouldn't. In general, I don't see a problem with changes to these bone summons. It might be best for you to state the base HP (Norm, NM, and Hell), Resistances, and +buffs/lvl (like thorns, HP, etc) for these summons, since most community members have trouble reviewing the files.
Wolfs wrote:
Looks decent to me, I better understand what you meant when you said "replaced with bonecage".

BaalsNightmare wrote:
Is there going to be any reworking or tweaking of set pieces or at least their full set bonuses? I feel like most of them are underwhelming after the early to mid stages of Normal, especially for the Amazon and Assassin builds, with uniques around the same level that are obvious better choices even with a set bonus.
I'm not aware of any changes to set items or set stats. As far as I know, you are welcome to make a suggestion for people to review. Make the suggestion as specific as possible so that people don't need to debate an interpretation of your request (this takes far longer than simply making the edit). I don't have access to sets.txt or SetItems.txt.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:47 pm 
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I don't think sorcs need extra fbr and psn length reduce.

I think the ES values are fine enough. It will be hard to balance the % absorb on ES to accommodate for builds that would like a low % ES without making a pure ES build almost impossible to play until late game or completely re balancing the amount of +skills gear has on it.

So basically ES scaling is fine enough as it is. Lets not pull a blue myrridin and change too much too fast and destroy what balance we have.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:51 pm 
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awesome work everyone that has put time in, well done!

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:12 pm 
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I am wary of making such a change to bone prison without extensive testing. If bone prison builds become too powerful then they will make bosses really cheesy.

If we have to make changes to it this patch maybe just a small buff at first like:

add CE as a synergy for wall/prison
remove the synergy wall/prison get from bonearmor but not vice versa
buff the hp synergy on wall and prison from 100 -> 150
wall duration 10 seconds; 1.5-2 sec cooldown (currently 30sec dur/2sec CD)
prison duration 20 seconds; 4 sec cooldown (currently 30sec dur/2sec CD)
add thorns = 1/3-1/2 the vaule of thorns on iron golem because of the lower cooldown on wall and prison.

This will give wall and prison 50% more life when fully maxed, make it harder to completely fill the screen with bonewalls and prisons and add a bit more thorns to the walls.

Is the thorns currently on them hardcoded? I have no experience editing wall and prison.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
Unfortunately, some of those changes are already implemented, while some are not. I think it would take me an hour just to figure out which is which and make a list of needed changes (it's been 30 minutes, and I've only confirmed or fixed up to #6). It takes time searching for the correct row and column, possibly some time to translate the request into code (i.e. "-monsterlvl per sec" might be "-ulvl" or "-ulvl/25" or something else)


For the monlifetap life drain I would not worry too much for that one. It's not worth wasting time over.

1-6 on that list you have completed. :)
7 I wouldnt worry about it too much.
8-9 easy to find just ctrl-f 'defense curse' and 'blood mana' lines 310 and 311
10-11 kramuti said arent a problem
12-15 'mercfreeze'; 'holy freeze b'; 'freezeaura'
16 lines 391-394

hope that helps save time

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Is the thorns currently on them hardcoded? I have no experience editing wall and prison.
No, it shouldn't be. The bonewall monster just has a monprop of thorns (400%, which is relatively low), so it doesn't change with skill level.

Thanks for identifying the row numbers of the skills that need checking. With computers, the time required to search is everything, so your efforts are appreciated. Also, as far as I can see, it was "Life Tap" (ast1=hpregen) not "MonLifetap" (ast1 is blank) that needed to be adjusted. Row numbers are sweet, words can get confusing quickly and easily.

@Anyone
Back around page 4, I asked of Strategy (AKA Penetrate) was supposed to have DR/MDR, and although it was mentioned at the time that it was not supposed to, there is at least one other post mentioning that it should afterall. I ended up deleting this from skillsdesc.txt since it wasn't in skills.txt, but now that I have the correct skills.txt, I see that there is a formula there for it. How would people like this resolved?
1) Remove DR/MDR from Strategy in skills.txt
2) Add DR/MDR to skillsdesc.txt


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Ah I see now. I think we should remove the thorns wall and prison get from mon-stats and give it to them as an aura stat, scaling the same as iron golem but at 33% or 50% iron golems vaules new vaules. maybe between 300+10 per lvl or 500+15 per level.

What do you guys think?

edit: from what I remember they added dr/mdr to strategy to helpout melee zons, but if you have points in dodge or evade then you dont get the bonus. I believe the formula is broken? I'd have to check.

I say we fix it and give dr/mdr to melee zons.

edit2:Ok so I checked and the formula is correct and so is the description in game.

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Last edited by Mrawskrad on Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:58 pm 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
I don't think sorcs need extra fbr and psn length reduce.

I think the ES values are fine enough. It will be hard to balance the % absorb on ES to accommodate for builds that would like a low % ES without making a pure ES build almost impossible to play until late game or completely re balancing the amount of +skills gear has on it.

So basically ES scaling is fine enough as it is. Lets not pull a blue myrridin and change too much too fast and destroy what balance we have.


Well first off the changes that blue made that crippled the game (aside from his amp changes) primarily was increasing the phys resistance "hat" act bosses had in hell. It was amplified by other items (specifically physical attackers) such as his changes to 1) amp progression, 2) Decreasing STR on a ton of items, and 3) Crushing blow nerfs.

So to say that adding FBR to ES or Pois Length Reduction to Warmth will destroy the balance of the game to the level Blue had is a little ridiculous.

That being said. I am fine not including those on this patch. But you suggested making ES a self synergy and I do agree that should happen. That alone will allow a much better mix of playable sorcs going ES. There is no real "point" to low lvls of ES. All it would do is burn your mana fast and become an annoyance similar to mana burn. As is now all Sorc's go 1 of 2 routes. Majority in life/Majority in Mana. Even if you didn't go all life or mana, any remaining points (if your an experienced player) should go in dex for some higher CTB%.

So this worry we have for those wanting low lvls of ES by giving up a much needed improvement and destroying the possibility of more viable sorc builds using more than just the "lightning" tree is also nonsensical.

You suggested it, I agree with it, so why are you backpedaling from your suggestion to self synergy ES? I say do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Delta wrote:
Mrawskrad wrote:
I don't think sorcs need extra fbr and psn length reduce.

I think the ES values are fine enough. It will be hard to balance the % absorb on ES to accommodate for builds that would like a low % ES without making a pure ES build almost impossible to play until late game or completely re balancing the amount of +skills gear has on it.

So basically ES scaling is fine enough as it is. Lets not pull a blue myrridin and change too much too fast and destroy what balance we have.


So this worry we have for those wanting low lvls of ES by giving up a much needed improvement and destroying the possibility of more viable sorc builds using more than just the "lightning" tree is also nonsensical.

You suggested it, I agree with it, so why are you backpedaling from your suggestion to self synergy ES? I say do it.


You misunderstood, maybe I wasnt clear. I am still for giving ES self synergy.

What i was disagreeing with was changing the scaling of the amount ES absorbs in order to helpout sorcs who want low value ES.

We both have similar opinions on the subject. I dont know why you think I'm back peddling. :)

Also I am wary of buffing ES too much, I know how powerful it can be. And changing too much too quickly without testing can be very bad when it comes to modding. I'm just trying to be extra cautious and thats why I dont want to give ES builds more free stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Ah I see now. I think we should remove the thorns wall and prison get from mon-stats and give it to them as an aura stat, scaling the same as iron golem but at 33% or 50% iron golems vaules new vaules. maybe between 300+10 per lvl or 500+15 per level.

What do you guys think?
There's some discussion regarding Thorns around page 3-6. At the time It was agreed to set IGolem to 1000% + 30%/Lvl.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:21 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
Mrawskrad wrote:
Ah I see now. I think we should remove the thorns wall and prison get from mon-stats and give it to them as an aura stat, scaling the same as iron golem but at 33% or 50% iron golems vaules new vaules. maybe between 300+10 per lvl or 500+15 per level.

What do you guys think?
There's some discussion regarding Thorns around page 3-6. At the time It was agreed to set IGolem to 1000% + 30%/Lvl.


See my edited post about strategy above.

Yeah that's what I based my thoughts for the new thorns vaules on wall and bonewall. They have a much lower spell timer so, they should also have much lower thorns, but I still think they should have scaling so you get rewarded more for investment.

You brought it up thats why im talking about it, but I'm fine with leaving bonewall/prison alone for now and focusing on fixing bugs and already agreed upon changes. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:36 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
See my edited post about strategy above.
Noted. I now recognize that there's one vote for the DR/MDR and one vote sort-of-against the DR/MDR. Since it genuinely appears that the DR/MDR was intended, and only the misfiling issue caused doubt about it, I'd vote for the DR/MDR to be re-added to the description, so intend to do so unless people complain soon.
Mrawskrad wrote:
You brought it up thats why im talking about it
Sadly, I didn't notice some of the text I quoted, which gave me a impression that reviewing the thread would be beneficial. Aside from that, I don't mind if people discuss changes to those summons, but I shouldn't take part since I haven't used them much. I like Wolfs' idea of differentiating them based on the elements they resist, but I'm not confident of the anti-phys wall having Thorns, since it won't be able to reflect much (so we could give it IGolem's thorns, and it's own defenses would balance the effectiveness to your proposed values).

@Anyone
FrozenArmor doesn't actually freeze the attacker anymore right? I thought that when it became player-targetable, it lost that ability. If someone can confirm that, then I will remove the erroneous FreezeDuration from the description.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
@Anyone
FrozenArmor doesn't actually freeze the attacker anymore right? I thought that when it became player-targetable, it lost that ability. If someone can confirm that, then I will remove the erroneous FreezeDuration from the description.


Correct, it does not freeze anymore.

Also, I'm all for making changes to the mod, but its hard to keep making them when we're trying to finished up this patch quickly and its very hard to get multiple people to give their opinions and quickly decide on what to change. If you feel like you have the time to do it all, go ahead though. I just don't want you to feel like its a must.

Besides bug fixes like we have already done, I think we should stick to the already decided changes for now.

Then after this patch is done we can start a long-term wish list for changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:29 pm 

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i believe at this point we should just finish up everything that was decided upon several months ago and proceed with the reset. proposing changes, debating upon them, then modding the changes could take another month. as it is if we get the patch rolling we can have a reset fairly soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:57 pm 
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I've packaged up my changes and sent them to Kramuti (I don't have information to send them to anyone else).

I've decided that it's best if I restrict my changes to these areas:
1) Making my version of skillsdesc.txt reference the current skills.txt correctly
2) Correcting obvious errors (e.g. "NAME?" references caused by improper MSExcel use)
3) Changing skills.txt in non-controversial ways (i.e. the suggestions from July that didn't contradict the formulas in the current skills.txt).

Some of the changes suggested in July were based on incorrect data, so were not included (AmplifyDamage and LRes formulas starting at 38%, removing DR/MDR from Strategy, etc).

I did not implement changes to Warmth, Hydra, EnergyShield, BoneWall, BonePrison, or other skills mentioned in the last few days. I'll leave these changes to people with more recent experience since I believe they will be better able to determine which numbers and formulas that would best improve upon last patch's performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:02 pm 

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Sooo is reset tomorrow? :P


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:07 pm 
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No. Finish first. Test next. Reset last.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
I did not implement changes to Warmth, Hydra, EnergyShield, BoneWall, BonePrison, or other skills mentioned in the last few days. I'll leave these changes to people with more recent experience since I believe they will be better able to determine which numbers and formulas that would best improve upon last patch's performance.


I think we should go ahead and fix warmth and hydra and make ES a self synergy.
The warmth and hydra changes are just fixing broken spells. The ES change is a small balance change that give arguably the weakest class a bit more defensive options.
I can make these changes very quickly if no one else is willing to, or atleast send kramuti files with the edits in them.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Let this patch roll out already and have this and many other things fall into the next patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:35 pm 
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Two bugged skills that I can fix in less than 30 mins. :\

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:41 pm 
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more discussions on how they should be fixed... more things for pious to test... just let it roll over until the next patch otherwise this opens the door for a million other short fixes to get thrown in and delay the patch

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:46 pm 
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There is nothing to test that will take more than 1 min in game. It's a simple fix and it works. No one else is offering to make other edits for other bug fixes so it's not really going to slow down the patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:57 am 
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/h46jqbgkp503u ... prison.rar


These changes didnt made them ubber tanks, atleast SP test gave me this feedback. Not more than a punch from bosses... maybe adding dr/mdr would have been a better idea than resistances, cause resistances add just a little bit survivality :| didnt tho of that me bad.

Btw, the ig thorns works nicely on it, sometimes even seems like too strong vs regular monsters.

RED OLD VALUE

bonewall skill changes
-[aurastat] thorns_percent - ln12
-Delay - 50 - 25
-% additional HP per level - 100 - additional HP/level - 100
-MAX duration - 750 - 250
-life synergy - 100
-removed bone armor synergy

Bonewall summon changes

Resdm 0 - 75
Resma 50 - 50
Resfi 0 - 25
Reslit 0 - 25
Rescold 0 - 25
Respois 75 - 75

Resdm(N) 0 - 90
Resma(N) 50 - 50
Resfi(N) 0 - 50
Reslit(N) 0 - 50
Rescold(N) 0 - 50
Respois(N) 75 - 75

Resdm(H) 0 - 120
Resma(H) 50 - 50
Resfi(H) 0 - 50
Reslit(H) 0 - 50
Rescold(H) 0 - 50
Respois(H) 75 - 75

HP 80 - 375
HP(N) 120 - 500
HP(H) 160 - 750


Boneprison

This one is a new skill cloned and edited of diabcage (called it boneprison5), so kind of differ on the prison coding and had to adjust differently, cant make a relation in comparison to old-new, its works as a high HP sack, with permeability to missiles (old prison its 100% block missiles unless they pierce), wich means that skills sometimes go thru the bone bars and other times hits them, adding cooler style and diferent playstyle related to bonewall (wall protects u from monsters and their missiles, and cage inmovilize them). Ill just throw the stats im using on it.

Skill
-Delay 150 (prison was 50)
-% HP bonus per level - 50
-MAX duration - 750
-Additional hp/lvl - 100
-lyfe synergy - 125
- removed bonearmor synergy

Summon
Resdm 30
Resma 0
Resfi 50
Reslit 50
Rescold 50
Respois 75

Resdm(N) 50
Resma(N) 15
Resfi(N) 75
Reslit(N) 75
Rescold(N) 75
Respois(N) 90

Resdm(H) 75
Resma(H) 30
Resfi(H) 90
Reslit(H) 90
Rescold(H) 90
Respois(H) 120


HP - 700
HP(N) - 900
HP(H) - 1300

Number seems high, but as i said, SP testing gave decent results, and just decent - viable crowd control, they still die fast in relation of the re-summon time. (also remmenber that i removed the BA syn)


Last edited by Wolfs on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:37 am 
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Look good but the resistances are too high.
I don't think they should be immune to any damage type. It opens the door for cheesing bosses.

And since you are adding thorns to them the physical resistances shouldn't be so high, or else why add thorns.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:26 am 
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Ok so I looked at your files and there are no changes to the HP per level or the synergy bonus HP for bonewall. So I'm not sure what you meant to change or not. But you honestly dont need to change any numbers besides the minons base HP if you want to buff its HP, since the HP calculations on wall and prison are straight forward.

Also for your thorns calcuation you should set up new parameters using 6 and 7 to make it cleaner and easier to make adjustments.

And you need to edit the skill desc to show that you removed bone armor as a synergy from these skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:35 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Look good but the resistances are too high.
I don't think they should be immune to any damage type. It opens the door for cheesing bosses.

And since you are adding thorns to them the physical resistances shouldn't be so high, or else why add thorns.


Totally understand all what u said mraw, but, did u tested the files ingame? Because atleast on my sp testing, even when the numbers are high, they arent inmunes at all, and the thorns do work fine... Beiieve me, i started with really low numbers thinking on exactly what u said.

Mrawskrad wrote:
Ok so I looked at your files and there are no changes to the HP per level or the synergy bonus HP for bonewall. So I'm not sure what you meant to change or not. But you honestly dont need to change any numbers besides the minons base HP if you want to buff its HP, since the HP calculations on wall and prison are straight forward.

Also for your thorns calcuation you should set up new parameters using 6 and 7 to make it cleaner and easier to make adjustments.

And you need to edit the skill desc to show that you removed bone armor as a synergy from these skills.


oh sorry, '-' was checking a wrong file when made the post, me bad... ya there arent any changes to wall skill in the end, besides base HP, CHANGED 100% PER LEVEL TO 100 FLAT HP PER LEVEL, added thorns aura and resistances... I tried other HP buffers and stuff and had various copies thats why the mistake.

Thorns is working... try it, but yeah need some better calculations perhaps

i changed the formula of BA, so no longer gives the synergy, but yeah ill check the Desc.


Last edited by Wolfs on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:04 pm 
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They are immune in hell because you gave them resistances of over 100 and that's where the thorns doesnt work. Its completely OP in normal and nightmare because the thorns value is set to 100% + 250% per level and has no effect in hell because in hell bonewall has 120 physical resistances.

Other than that from testing it I still think they are dying too quicky, especially wall. This is something that is going to require a lot of tweaking to find a good balance

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
They are immune in hell because you gave them resistances of over 100 and that's where the thorns doesnt work. Its completely OP in normal and nightmare because the thorns value is set to 100% + 250% per level and has no effect in hell because in hell bonewall has 120 physical resistances.

Other than that from testing it I still think they are dying too quicky, especially wall. This is something that is going to require a lot of tweaking to find a good balance


Yes, testing thru the acts in hell, in a1 and a4, does big thorns dmg, and a2 a3 a5 does not... why is this? maybe because of the attacks the enemies use? dont know.

Talking about dying fast, ill try with damage absorb per level, and check what can i do... leaving high phy res means toning down the thorns, so, ill maybe just tone it down to 90 for hell and test.... or leave it as it is to not cheese through.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:46 pm 
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There is something wrong with your edits they shouldn't be dying this fast. Let me look into it some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:05 pm 
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Added this aurastat [bonearmor] and the formula [aurastatcalc] ln12 + (skill('Bone Prison'.blvl)) * par8 and now they tank good in hell tundra, now ill start toning down.


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:10 pm 
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You're making this too complicated. I started over with fresh txt files and edited them in the way you first wanted and its working cleanly.

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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Yes, and do apologize '-' found the error where i messed up and the reason why they werent surviving and had to escale up so much the numbers. was a missing "(" in the formula, but now its ok and a simple to balance honestly. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Did lower resist get a reduced mana cost?


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:00 am 

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Quote:
You misunderstood, maybe I wasnt clear. I am still for giving ES self synergy.

What i was disagreeing with was changing the scaling of the amount ES absorbs in order to helpout sorcs who want low value ES.

We both have similar opinions on the subject. I dont know why you think I'm back peddling. :)

Also I am wary of buffing ES too much, I know how powerful it can be. And changing too much too quickly without testing can be very bad when it comes to modding. I'm just trying to be extra cautious and thats why I dont want to give ES builds more free stats.


I understand, my apologies for misunderstanding!


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 Post subject: Re: Organized suggestion feedback/start of changelog
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:02 am 

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Mrawskrad wrote:
There is nothing to test that will take more than 1 min in game. It's a simple fix and it works. No one else is offering to make other edits for other bug fixes so it's not really going to slow down the patch.


Just do them and send it in. We are going to have a test phase before ladder anyways.


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