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 Post subject: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:28 am 
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This is taken from a discussion with Slappynuts. I agree with quite a bit of it, but let's hear what you have to say. I just copy and pasted and then I put a few notes marked with an *

I'm standing my ground on the psn issue.... lemme log Kasia's and tell you... ok nvm he killed his lvl 97 lol, but it was completely finished (temps, griffs, shards, facets) and I swear he wasn't even at 200k. And he built his way more damage than I would (hence, he died lol)

"Normal was changed to get people used to the flavor by Terry. If the only complaint left is that totally twinked out you can pwn norm, then it is where it should be"
100% agree.

*Note I read Frank's thread. It does give me some concern if people are actually soloing things like LoS, but that is also not the issue that was raised. I would like other's input. Is this really solo, or are you using life buffs from a barb or a druid in and saying your are soloing it.*

I haven't made a phys char yet, but have talked a lot with some that have and played with them in hell. As you said norm is easy mode, NM as long as you can tank its ok, then hell things get slower. They clear trash bad and need amp to hurt the big bosses. However, with a decent amp from a necro they are probably one of the best DPS around right now (especially if supplemented with some CB). If the trade-off is: have great damage, but cant use it against bosses solo (due to no amp), I think thats fine. Also the players who run an amp weapon swap can be rewarded for very tedious work lol. I think with the low level amp we have on ctcs that soloing big bosses is still hard, would have to double check with someone on that. All-and-all I think melee got put in a nice place this patch, and the buffs to all the melee gear helped with that immensely.

tl;dr I think poison and melee got in a great place this patch. I think we are better off looking at the builds that need some love now. One of the biggest recurring complaints I hear is that everyone is playing the same builds.

Druids-
Honestly I think they're in the best shape right now. Really only shockwave needs some love. I honestly don't see why more people don't play fstorm druids anymore after it got removed from bear form... I think after I finish mine people will start playing it again :). I feel like every other druid build is useful and in a good spot.
*Read Frank's thread on 'geddon. I do agree that it is better than other fire skills. Maybe some nerf, but 1/2 is too big imo*

Necros-
Also in a good spot. Bone wall/prison I have seen a couple people try to make a weird one but they always fail. Not sure what could be done here to make it more useful of a build.

Zons-
Bowzons need some love. I have literally never seen one in hell. Maybe its cuz they all die and they suck, but right now javs>bows. Not sure if the way to tackle this is via items or skills, I never actually got around to making a bowzon so don't have any first hand experience.

Sins-
I don't know shit about sins to comment. I made my first sin this ladder (fire traps) and she owns hella hard

Dins-
I think if we could figure out a fix for the zeal bug where if it misses the first attack it will miss all 5 we'd see a lot more melee dins.
*I don't know how to fix this. It would take someone with coding experience at minimum, and I simply don't know enough to guess if it is fixable*

Barbs-
actually I guess all the barb builds are decent right now too

Sorcs-
Frost nova, a really cool build, but dmg is abysmal compared to any other sorc build. If the point of a f.nova sorc is for it to be the tanky cold build as it synergizes with all the armors, give her a 20% dr (one per hard point) in chilling armor. If people think that might make that 20%dr too easily accessible to any sorc build, then make it 1 every 2 points on chilling armor and shiver armor so you get 10 from each. The 20% dr will be able to maybe allow some cold sorcs to run staffs (since 99% of the sorcs I see on HC default to wand+shield) and maybe actually make them a viable off-tank dps

just some of my thoughts :)

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:45 pm 
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My main issue with psn is the op leet moon crafts there should be some kinda cap on those crafts..
I have one atm with these mods at lvl 50ish
1 pallys skills
8 to all elements
18 res all
and some other mods .. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:27 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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People are infact soloing LoS by using plague running away and repeating. This is also with completely squishy gear. So i do think Poison Amazon still needs some sort of nerf. I like the idea someone brought up about lowering duration more.

I've made a few physical characters and i think they're right on the money.

Bone prison Necromancer is a very good build imo. But for very specefic things like Leoric Runs, killing/Tanking Andariel, Tanking Most Act Bosses, Tanking Samhein etc. If anything i'd like to see some nice wands for those that would like to try melee Necromancers. It may be tricky, considering Bone Armor gives a nice bonus along with maxed amplify damage, to make a well tailored weapon for them.

The damage for Bowzons now seems very nice, but not overpowered imo. A freind of mine made one and loves it. Firsthand i've seen it do some very nice damage even in a medium sized game in hell. Also they can use Multishot for trash as an option.

Trappers seem to be another build that's soloing bosses a bit(that same Trap and run deal similar to Poison Amazons). But frankly i have never made one so i'll refrain from commenting on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Frank: 'People are infact soloing it' is pretty vague. Do you have 1st hand experience with this? Are you positive that the zon is the only character ingame? A lot (if not most) people that say they solo things, aren't. They may be the only damage dealer, but multiboxing/Loader use does not count imo. (Others may disagree).
I simply want very specific detail. A fraps would be nice, but is likely not something I will get.

Asteroth: I do get what you are saying, but for the sake of uniformity, I would also then suggest that starstone crafts should have a level req too, and for that matter pgem crafts...I hate doing this as crafts are meant to be able to use the recipe formula to your advantage. Not saying am opposed to level reqs, just makes me sad to have to...clever fooking monkeys. What levels would you suggest for the other crafts? 27/48/72 ish? too low? I chose 27 since that is when +skills is available, 48 since that is when the decent res all starts, 72 to at least put you late act2/act3 nm

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:20 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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Self Bo, No oak, The deal is avoiding counters and staying out of range from regular attacks. I have witnessed this first hand. !00% squishy Poison Amazon. I went to do LoS with a friend and he ended up killing them all himself. I'd go in to spam summons on them and he'd tell me no need. Because he wanted them chasing him. So he could throw, run, repeat. I'd like to say also (and i've seen alot of this as well) People after dieing in SC as with the Killing of soulmancer are hurrying back after death to continue killing a non regenerated bosses. This was also used when i witnessed the soloing of LoS. If it's possible i'd love the see the hp regen timer lowered on bosses. It seems like something if done wrong could really mess up things but also seems like a necessary fix.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 5:51 pm 
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Hmm or even 25/50/75 but both values look good to me...

I never heard of this psn zon solo thing your saying...Did you ever once think that they might be hacking ? cuz 1 hit from the droods valcano will kill just about anyone and I can't see any zon taking his dmg...As far as the soulmancer boss ya its the lamest way to kill it ya but then again I think the hole soulmancer boss in a hole is lame cuz no one in hc can benifit from hitting 101 its pointless for them cuz of death...
I would like to see this boss balanced in dmg so hc players can get the rewords aswell... 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:03 pm 
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I have seen the issue with dying while a boss is poisoned and then not regenerating. I think the last time was when I and a friend were taking on NM? Duriel. Shortening the length is not going to solve that issue. It has to do with an 'awareness' issue of the boss. I really don't know how to fix that part.

So Frank, is this the main exploit? Or were you just a sad observer to watching the zon take the bosses without dying at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Any word on Shock Wave Druids?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:48 pm 
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ive been making a shockwave druid as well. i just cant help but feel how the damage of it needs to be enhanced by something other than skill points. i love the whole feel of this character and its cool factor, but the point of this build is to have some form of aoe that you can actually clear trash with in hell mode while you bear tank bosses down. the damage should scale with something, maybe when you charge up maul it should transfer to shockwave's damage. perhaps "enhanced damage" on gear should add to it the way +element skill dmg adds to other caster's damage. dont know if that would work but its an idea. probably a bad one though since you might not get anywhere near enough to give good effect. and you should be able to get some cast rate on it. maybe 60% total so you can wear all melee gear, and not have to switch it all out every time you wanna leach some health on hard trash pack, or fight a boss. in fact thats the basis behind this entire topic.. my suggestions are much like some of the others. throw some more damage on it with maul synergy and add werebear synergy as well to keep people from just making a summon druid as someone suggested would happen..... perhaps add a few% cast rate on shockwave itself, only being added via hard points, and only working for shockwave itself, if you can do that. not sure right now if its totally necessary but it seems correct. other than that there's what LmT was saying about adding 1/8 weapon damage since its physical and should envoke some leach etc. it would be awesome to see anything implemented in the upcoming patch!


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 Post subject: Re: Any word on Shock Wave Druids?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:52 pm 
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also id like to say that the AOE of the spell is very puny and would greatly benefit from a little bit more reach and a little bit more radius around the druid, as the tooltip and the basic idea of stomping a bear foot on the ground suggests. probably about 50-65% more reach in front and to the sides of the druid from what it has right now. i dont know if its possible to do that but there's my 2 cents on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Note: I moved eulogy's post to here from the old organized suggestions from a few patches ago.

Buffs were given to shockwave, but I will take a look at some of what you are saying.
Adding phys damage to skills via facets doesn't work as far as i know.

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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The zon rarely died, it didn't have to survive a hit from volcano due to staying out of it's casting range. The lack of regen was just another ugly thing i've noticed many times. For example I have hurt duriel down to 30% or so then died and ran back before he regened and finished him off. Same with Baal Minions etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:24 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
Adding phys damage to skills via facets doesn't work as far as I know.
If you're thinking of physMastery, then it's possible, but awkward. The synergy calculation needs to be adjusted to consider a new stat. This is quite a bit of work since many skills need to be rebalanced and their synergy formulas changed, and items need to be edited to include the new mod.

If the old synergy calculation is 'syns', then the new calculation is:
(100+syns) * (100+mastery)/100 - 100

An example where ShockWave's synergy field was "skill('Maul'.blvl)*par8"
(100+skill('Maul'.blvl)*par8) * (100+stat('physMastery'.accr))/100 - 100

Here's an example with numbers (dmg=1000, 50% synergy, 200% mastery):
Code:
Regular damage calculation (when Mastery applies)
1000 * (100+syns)/100 * (100+mastery)/100
1000 * (100+50  )/100 * (100+200    )/100
1000 * (150     )/100 * (300        )/100
1000 * 1.5 * 3
4500

New damage calculation (mastery inside synergy)
1000 * (100 +       newSyns                     ) / 100
1000 * (100 + (100+syns)*(100+mastery)/100 - 100) / 100
1000 * (100 + (100+50  )*(100+200    )/100 - 100) / 100
1000 * (100 + (150     )*(300        )/100 - 100) / 100
1000 * (100 + 450                          - 100) / 100
1000 * (      450                               ) / 100
4500
I haven't bothered to use this calculation, but I understand that Laz of PhrozenKeep has used it for MagicMastery. I am not aware of a method of introducing physPierce.

eulogy wrote:
Is it possible to extend the range of Shock Wave by 50-65%?
I haven't tried it, but this change should be very easy. It's just a case of increasing the 'shockwave' missile's 'Range' or 'Vel' value by 50-65%. Personally I think the skill's fine, but it should be fine with a longer range too.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 12:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:19 pm
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Location: Reno NV
I've solo'd a few of the LoS bosses with plague jav(on HC if it matters) using the kiting strategy Frank is referring to. I think he mentioned this in his other thread but making plague/poison javelin not reset boss timers would be an easy fix to that. Also I'm not sure but I believe LoS healing timers are funky, or not functional as I can't recall a single instance of them healing.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Ya thats sounds like a good plan there Drrod with the reset timer ... Seems like the only way around this issue...My only other issue with psn zons is when you have more then one in a game it tends to get really laggy do to the cloud... Perhaps keep the cloud but have it not show up kinda like what we did with Seige beasts and catapolts lag issue's .. Just a thought for people with lower end comps.. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:49 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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can bow zons survival be buffed, they get owned by all aoe bosses hence jav>bow


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Bow zons are not really a boss killing build there better suited for trash and trash farmin..If you give them a life buff keep in mind the java zon will exploit this.. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:16 pm 
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From what I have seen over the last few patches, freezing arrow zons seem decent. Is it reall the fire branch that is still lacking, or do people think that it is all bowzons? Direct life buffs isn't going to happen. Maybe some form of DR from passives that bowzons use more?

As far as making poison jav skills not reset the heal timer...this is a code editing thing isn't it? I have zero knowledge of that part. Would need someone like Steel to do this if he is still lurking around.

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:59 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
As far as making poison jav skills not reset the heal timer...this is a code editing thing isn't it?
This doesn't need code editing. Most skills work by launching a unique missile (the picture used usually isn't unique to that missile). PoisonJav and PlagueJav both have missiles (even the little poison clouds are their own missile), and it's the missile's properties that determine if the heal timer is set. To make a missile not set the heal timer, it's 'GetHit' column should be set to zero (or simply cleared). I have tested and verified this.


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:18 pm 
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I had wondered about that field when I was looking last night, but hadn't tested it. Good to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:18 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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Asteroth wrote:
Bow zons are not really a boss killing build there better suited for trash and trash farmin..If you give them a life buff keep in mind the java zon will exploit this.. 8-)


Just saying bowzons need a way to stay alive, especially on the huge AOE bosses such as diablo which you cant dodge.

Your rite they are great fun clearing trash but boss fights in NM onwards you just dont contribute what so ever as your to squishy.

The problem when compared to a javzazon is this:
Jav has a shield
Jav can put all stats in vitality - bow needs to stack dex to be competive
Because jav has a shield the decoy is stronger and tankier aswell.

We need to give bow zons a way to survive more, perhaps from skills that a javazon woudn use EG get a skill to lvl 20 and get the bonus then? damage reduction could also work to i guess


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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 12:58 pm 
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I rolled 2 different immo arrow zons on HC and they friggin raped! I also made a strafer last ladder that soloed normal and did great damage vs nm/hell bosses. The 2fpa strafe change really made the skill shine.

Some zons are squishy because of getting 3 life per vita point, but they also have several survival skills. Decoy/Valk/Dodge. With 1 point in Critical Stike and a few +skills, a zon will do 2x damage 75% of the time....off of ONE skill point!

Most of the bowazons I've seen had all damage/dex gear/stats. Most had no were near max res, much less any absorbs. Same went for the physical side, little to no DR/MDR much less %DR.

If the zon was gonna get some kind of life buff or DR% on a skill, it should be on impale or fend only.

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:27 pm 
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I am tending to agree with Fury on this one. From discussions with others, and this, it really seems the lack of bowzons is still mainly due to poisonzons, not that they totally blow ass.

I don't have a lot of experience with them in the late game, but early to mid the seem pretty damn stout if used right. I don't think that there has been enough data to make a change at this time to add survivability to them. The comment about the strafe change made is good to see actually. I have not seen enough people even give some of these things a shot before simply saying but javzon has blah.

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 Post subject: Re: Skills suggestions
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Lower res should have mana cost lowered, it shouldn't be so high compared to amp.


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