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 Post subject: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:14 am 
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I understand there is a cap of +255-511 damage for each element on an item. Is it possible to use +255-511 for an element more than once on an item? i.e. have two mod-slots on a runeword with +250-500 cold dmg, so that they stack to form +500-1000? Considering that we know +%EDamage is capped at 511, but jewels and such can increase it beyond that, it seems like D2 code has good handling of mods that can be stacked.

If the stacking of %ED only works effectively because the extra is from jewels and Runes, then perhaps in the future higher runes like Vex through Su can have an elemental damage bonus in weapons of +250-500 for their element. Since elemental damage on attack does not benefit from the massive amounts of skill %EDamage available, I don't think this will overpower any builds, but it does allow for some interesting runewords or socketting possibilities (although low Facets are pretty decent).

Perhaps the lower runes of Tal to Thul could have a damage bonus of 50-100 or something meaningful like that. A potential socketable of 6 of those runes would give a weapon doing extra 300-600 element damage, but it would not have any ED%, so I think it would be balanced. If considering a nice low level craft, I think +200-400 from these runes is on par with Ith rune's +16Min +48Max after %ED from skills is applied.


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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:06 pm 
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I agree with the idea of creating new med-high lvl +elementaldmg jewels ( the ones existing often sux more than tal-thul runes,except for those who also add IAS or ll / ml ). Didnt know about the max-stack of ele dmg added , and now I understand why my Baranar 's a whole shit in its own :D

But Im not sure about the enhancement of the runes, because they would be pretty strong, being low lvl, and even worse, able to being bought on a4 and a5.
Just think about a lvl 38 avenger din, with maxed veng, and 3 points conviction. He also maxed an elemental off.aura ( for example, HF ), and found a warscepter with +3 veng , or +2 veng ( relatively easy ). X Socket it, and put 5 x neo-thul on ... woah, gg for a sucky lvl 38 pal , I think -_-'.

But I find the global idea pretty interesting. Just skipping that chance to do massive dmg to low lvl chars
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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:51 pm 
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tonykantos wrote:
Just think about a lvl 38 avenger din, with maxed veng, and 3 points conviction. He also maxed an elemental off.aura ( for example, HF ), and found a warscepter with +3 veng , or +2 veng ( relatively easy ). X Socket it, and put 5 x neo-thul on ... woah, gg for a sucky lvl 38 pal , I think -_-'.
Vengeance works by enhancing only the physical damage of the weapon, so in your case the war scepter's physical damage is not changed from it's base (it has no enchanged damage). Your Avenger would not benefit from the 5 neo-Thul. Sadly, your Avenger would be worse-off than a zealot, since your attack speed is too slow to apply the cold damage efficiently. Your Avenger would see an excellent damage buff by crafting a skull-weapon, quad-socketing it, and tossing in +Dmg jewels. The Avenger's best weapon is the same as all other phys-dmg melee: really fast and really big.

The main builds that would benefit from these neo-Thul runes are freezing arrow bozons (since cold dmg to attack is added directly to their splash damage. These runes would rock for them. Wouldn't it be neat to see a non-multishot bowzon on the realm?), and Convictors (since they lower enemy res, and thus amplify any elemental damage added to their attack). Almost all other builds would not receive as much benefit from the neo-Thul as they would from an ith rune. With the ith rune, their skill-based Enhanced Damage would amplify the +Dmg from the rune, turning +4-12 into something anywhere from +20-60 (500% ED, like a low level zealot maxing Sacrifice and Fanatacism), to something like 100-300 (very high %ED skills like Charge and LeapAttack). Also consider that your Strength and sometimes Dex act as Skill-based Enhanced Damage, with about 1-2% ED per point, depending on the weapon you're using. After all that, your character might get a DeadlyStrike or CriticalStrike, which will double the effect of the ith rune combine with the %ED, but will have no effect on non-physical damage.

Since the only "% Enhanced Damage" for elemental damage is a sorc's elemental Masteries, I think the new runes are not overpowered at all. They're pretty much balanced alongside ith runes, but raised because they're a higher level, and do not contribute leaching benefits like physical damage.

As a final clarification, if you add 5 neo-Thul, then you increase your attack damage by 250-500. If you take that weapon off, then your damage drops by about 250-500. There will be no further buff to your damage due to skills, because there are no skills affecting the elemental damage. Most chars are capable of doing more damage than 250-500 by the end of A2. CriticalStrike and DeadlyStrike mods do not affect elemental damage (except on mercs).

You're not alone in thinking that raising elemental damage should only be done in small increments, but just do the math and you should see that elemental damage increases do not have many hidden effects, what you see is what you get. One hidden effect is that ice damage to attack is added to FreezingArrow, while Fire dmg is added to Exploding/ImmolationArrow, so you get more damage than expected because it is applied to several creatures all at once.


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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:14 am 
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Brevan "Book-of-Wisdom" > me 1000 times.

After writing the post, I realized that vengeance enhances dmg from physical stats, not the elements, but anyway, nothing more to add, discuse or argue in this thread ,
I will now lower my head, turn back, and hide in that stash in a corner of the Blood Moor ... ass-pwn3d ^^

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:11 am 
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I support this idea. Elemental damage in general (with the exception of poison) gets kinda the short end of the stick in HU. It's absolute crap vs bosses, and trash killing is viable by just about every build.
That and every elemental build needs a large amount of skillers to compete end-game, which is kind of disappointing.

I'd also like to see a triplet of end-game sets, each focusing on fire/ice/lightning, but that probably won't happen.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:51 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
I understand there is a cap of +255-511 damage for each element on an item. Is it possible to use +255-511 for an element more than once on an item?


To answer this question well after it was asked - yes.
I tossed 3x frost tear in to a weapon and ended up with 720-960 cold damage.

So perhaps something useful can be done.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:15 am 
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Thanks for testing Blue, and for reviving this idea. I understand that the stacking from socketables (gems, jewels, runes) is handled well.

While testing ideas recently, has anyone checked if a unique or runeword item can have multiple instances of the same mod. For example, could I create a unique item with:

+250-500 Cold dmg
+250-500 Cold dmg
+250-500 Ele (this mod adds fire/cold/lit dmg, like with "Harmony")
+250-500 Cold dmg
Sockets (3)
+50% IAS

In this example, the item in game would show:
+1000-2000 Cold
+250-500 Fire
+250-500 Lit
Sockets (3)
+50% IAS

If it's possible to create items like this, then it would be nice to see non-phys element stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:15 am 
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You could add 3 or 4 of the same rune for the runeword to give a big ele damage boost, then add the ele damage as a bonus from the rw.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:28 pm 
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I dont know how the mod slots work for runewords but from my experience in hero editor duplicate mods cause problems. 8

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Thats why you need to add the damage from the input runes.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:37 pm 
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@Purerage
The only runes I remember that added elemental damage were the lower ones (Ral, Ort, Thul), which add about 45 elemental damage each. Stacking them with a runeword's mod is exactly what I tried to do with "Winter", but I forgot that Lo does nothing useful in weapons for that runeword. I had suggested buffing Lo, Vex, and Ohm earlier in this thread to give 250-500 element damage, but I have not noticed that suggestion being received and planned for implementation. Still, this isn't an ideal solution since it limits the runes and the base item useable by quite a bit (pretty much need to use a 6os Berzerker axe for the range and even then the damage tops out around 3k (which won't be buffed byt %ED since it's elemental).

I'd really like to know if it's possible ot stack the +Dmg mods on items without resorting to taking up the sockets.

@Zikur
It sounds like you don't remember the problems encountered, so I'm guessing you don't remember what mods were trying to be stacked. Can you experiment by creating an items similar to the one I posted previously in the thread (3 instances of +Cold dmg with 1 instance of +ele dmg). If it causes problems, what kind are they (game crash, item poofs, item does no damage, creating or joining a game with that char gives "bad char data" error, etc). I don't think it would matter what type of item you made (crafted, unique, set, runeword), but you're welcome to try two :)

Perhaps try again with an item with one +Cold and one +ele dmg mod. I'm very confident those will stack without problems.


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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:07 pm 
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i will test as soon as im able but from what i do remember it will give an error similar to 'duplicate mods only nv state mods can be duplicate'
or something like that. it gave me errors for stacking multiple +%ed and + all skills.
im sure + cold dmg and + elemental would work, again soon as im able, I dont have zonfire on my laptop.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:49 pm 
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remember that udietoo etc are not reliable ways to test this. For example, uniques created by udietoo can have many many mods, in game uniques are limited to 12.

@Brevan, I'm doing some modding right now so i`ll test to see how these kinda things work stackability wise.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:51 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
@Brevan, I'm doing some modding right now so i`ll test to see how these kinda things work stackability wise.


cool, will be interested to hear.

As I am reviewing the items & suggestions from the balance team, I have been keeping Brevan's feedback on elemental dmg in mind and trying to boost it here and there when possible to open up better avenues for these builds.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:13 pm 
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Hmm, bad news, there seems to be a cap on it afterall

The unique below had (in the text files) 250-500 fire damage, 250-500 fire damage, 250-500 ele damage. Seems the cap is 511 on max if given as properties (bummer).
Image
There is a way around it that I can think of though. We would add a passive skill that grants ele damage to attack. The max level would be 1 so + skills wont make it insanely strong. the passive would be added to these weapons in question.

Its an idea we may want to consider, the string we would add to the skill would just read +xxxx elemental damage so people know what its doing. What do you think to that?

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:25 pm 
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http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... 87&start=0 maybe this will help.


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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:28 pm 
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nice find, that solves the problem nicely.

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Steel wrote:
http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13787&start=0 maybe this will help.


wow!

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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:11 am 
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GG Steel.
Clearly that opens up quite a few possibilities for modifying items. Personally, I think only elemental damage needs to have it's bit-length buffed (i.e. let's not go with >511% ED like that fellow in the thread).

@Blue
Thanks for considering buffs to elemental damage to attack.

@Purerage
Despite this solution to elemental damage caps, I'm all for creating non-player skills that we can add as oskills (this is a good way to buff items past their mod-count cap). Not really sure what we'd want to make right now though. Perhaps a future update can include this.

Thanks for the answers in this thread, I have no further questions regarding this topic.


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 Post subject: Re: +EleDmg to attack mods
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:09 am 
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http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/index. ... w&iden=448 read before if you really want to edit itemstatcosts
+keep in mind you need to find your item after doing any changes otherwise game will crash/don't show your changes.
Quote:
I think only elemental damage needs to have it's bit-length buffed (i.e. let's not go with >511% ED like that fellow in the thread).
You can also tweak %life like on The Beast RW, now it's (2^6-1) -10 = 53% ... ID 76 ok, little offtopic.


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