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 Post subject: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:27 pm 
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The way they are now, they can solo any boss that is not poison immune with very little effort and even some that are with using LR to break immunities (like Szzak).

They not only do alot of damage very easily with just trangs and some psn craft boots, but it is the way they apply the damage. They run in spank a monster and for the next 6-8 seconds they sit back in safety and watch said monster get ripped apart. Repeat 5-10 times and you have a dead anything.

I suggest a slight decrease in their damage and reduce the duration of Psn Strike by half or so. This would put the overpowered psn necro in harms way more often, but i dont think this would effect them that much.

Another thing we could do is make Psn Strike into a Psn Bolt skill thats dmg is on par with other missle skills like fireball or lightning and reduce the duration to around .5-1 second. This would make it a spammable attack like sorcs have.

Necromancers already have summons curses and CE do they really need the best boss killing skill in the game too?

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Back when I played it, the build was fine - he did great dmg, but not so great that you didn't have to repeatedly go in and smack things. Reducing the duration would be a really bad thing as that is what makes the build interesting. If the dmg is too much though, it could be scaled back.

Post up a video of the necro in action so we can see what sort of time frame we are talking about

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Of course you have to reapply the damage when it wears off and being able to stand back causing no counters, spamming summons while you do 180k damage over the next 7-8 seconds with only trangs set and dweb for gear(no charms) with up to and over -120 res on them is what makes it overpowered.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:45 pm 
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well it can be a little bit harder to accomplish than what you are describing. Some bosses are easier to "tame" than others and trying to do this against Act Bosses is extremely difficult until you are much stronger than the boss.

For example - try to get in close to Mephisto to stab him and you may find that your skinny, pasty ass gets slowed down to a crawl and then smacked down. Oh and good luck running around in circles for the 7-8 seconds while the poison goes to work because your golems aren't going to last very long against him. With your DPS rate, you only have to do that about 40-60 more times (at least) until he dies.

With a tank and a party with life buffs, sure it is much easier - but that is the case with every build in this game.

If you can keep the boss pinned down with your golems, then ya it becomes pretty straight forward to mow things down. That tends to only happen on some of the sub-bosses and once you are super-powered with strong gear.

So the mechanics of the skill (hit/run, do lots of dmg) aren't really a problem. Whether or not the dmg has gotten to crazy levels or not, I don't know. People whine and cry about the rabies druid sucking even though he does over 100k with mediocre gear and 150K with good gear. You have access to LR as a rabies druid and you have about 10k life to make the whole hit and run process much easier. So to hear you say that a psn necro does 180K dmg doesn't sound all that bad considering that he has a much smaller amount of life.

I do encourage you and others to post more detailed information - and a video is best - always good to discuss these issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:50 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
.....because your golems aren't going to last very long against him......
......If you can keep the boss pinned down with your golems,


Its not the golems that = WIN

still surprised about how many folks think necros best summons are skeles or golems, lol

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:05 pm 

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I think he needs a nerf too.

And his Trang Oul set too by the way : a "mini-Bramble" (gloves 25%) + Teleport like Enigma and Lower Resist = LoL.


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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Tsume wrote:
And his Trang Oul set too by the way : a "mini-Bramble" (gloves 25%) + Teleport like Enigma and Lower Resist = LoL.

Trangs set is fine the way it is.

-The +psn% bonus is a set mod now (before they used to just have +psn% damage on them for any character.)
-Theres nothing about **Trang set** that has to do with lower resist, thats just on the necro anyhow.
-Tele as a set bonus is just freakin sweet. I even tried the 4x trang parts on my warcry barb last season (to give him tele) before i made enigma just to play around and it was pretty fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:44 pm 
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My necro soloed dury meph and diablo in hell with trangs set.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:01 pm 

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its not so much a problem with the gear as it is a problem with the skills themselves. the gear has comparable stats to other higher class-specific stats...look at ik and tal rasha sets for examples.

the problem is 2-fold:

1) very high dps with not very rare or very godly gear (he is doing 180k damage with no charms)

2) a long duration... it allows one to completely crush any boss while standing away. you could keep the damage the same, and give it a 1 second duration, forcing someone to have to stand there if they want to deal high damage like that. remember, listed poison damage is done PER SECOND (this is taken from a thread in the median newbie forums called "poison damage explained by nimrod")...most people confuse it that a longer duration means less damage. example: your poison skill does 100 damage over 6 seconds. its not 16.6 damage per second (100/6) but 600 damage (100 damage for each of the 6 seconds). not only does the poison strike deal high damage, and not only does the necro have the availability of a strong poison debuff, but it also has a duration that allows it to apply MASSIVE damage while sitting in safety.

it doesnt seem like the other poison skills of the necro have these problems though.


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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:27 pm 
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muleofal wrote:
1) very high dps with not very rare or very godly gear (he is doing 180k damage with no charms)


Don't let the big numbers impress you - that is over 8-10 seconds if he has his gear setup smart. 18k DPS isn't all that insane.


muleofal wrote:
2) a long duration... it allows one to completely crush any boss while standing away. you could keep the damage the same, and give it a 1 second duration, forcing someone to have to stand there if they want to deal high damage like that. remember, listed poison damage is done PER SECOND (this is taken from a thread in the median newbie forums called "poison damage explained by nimrod")...most people confuse it that a longer duration means less damage. example: your poison skill does 100 damage over 6 seconds. its not 16.6 damage per second (100/6) but 600 damage (100 damage for each of the 6 seconds). not only does the poison strike deal high damage, and not only does the necro have the availability of a strong poison debuff, but it also has a duration that allows it to apply MASSIVE damage while sitting in safety.


nimrod is not accurate in his understanding of psn dmg. The listed psn dmg is over the entire duration.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Izron wrote:
Its not the golems that = WIN


I agree with this statement. The ability to get strong and fast recastable blades may be the real big problem here. When you had to time your golem recasts it was a little bit trickier, but now that you can spam blades it may be trivial to "tame" a boss and let your poison do the work. If anything, I would look in to tweaking the blades.

I used to have an excel file to do the psn strike calculations, but I have no idea where it is and my old psn dmg thread from the other forums is probably long gone. Here is a screenshot though with some of the psn dmg listed when I was considering different item setups:

Attachment:
psn-strike1.gif
psn-strike1.gif [ 38.84 KiB | Viewed 942 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:17 pm 
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The bosses that psn necros farm all day (nilly/belial/azmodan) dont need blade spammed on them and bosses such as diablo and baal, who dont charge at players like dury and meph do are siting ducks for a psn necro. All the necro needs is a few health potions and in about 30 seconds theres a dead boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:19 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
30 seconds theres a dead boss.


3-4 psn strikes is killing a boss? wow, that is extremely high dmg.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:13 pm 
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You know what I mean 30 seconds isnt not accurate for all bosses some of them take 60 seconds or 90 or 120. It doesnt matter, its still a very safe attack that deals alot of damage with very cheap gear.

My necro killed hell baal today in about 2-3 mins with a belt of potions and hell darkness died in about 5 hits. I only have level 43 psn strike, which only does about 180k. Poison strike damage can easily reach 250 with unique charms and elemental craft rings and boots. With a few skillers 300k, with more...400k.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:18 pm 
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around 500K I think is about where it peaks.

record one of these fights and post it up - should make for a good watch.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:26 pm 
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I'm not going to record and post a fight to prove something everyone knows but doesn't want to admit because they are having too much fun destroying bosses with their necros.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:40 am 

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I agree they're pretty OP to an extent towards mid-late game(as was rabies until recently). The only thing that really bothers me is that they can become very solo friendly vs the tougher bosses(act bosses, samhain) endgame. I suppose it's not a huge issue in HC as running up to stab(or even nova) a lot of the end game bosses without a party/big life buffs will get you killed eventually. But of course this mod is balanced around SC and a party based mod, so I do see it being a bit of an issue late game.

I think one of the main reasons poison builds like rabies and poison necros excel so much is because of how pathetic the damage of the majority of ranged attacks are. Unfortunately buffing those would also hurt all the other ranged builds who don't even come close to matching the boss killing potential of poison.

Nerfing the damage a bit definitely wouldn't break the build. Having to actually hit a monster to deal the full poison strike damage would be a cool concept as well. Maybe the cloud doing half damage(probably hardcoded?). Unless I'm wrong about how poison strike works of course, I haven't really researched the skill all that much.

All in all I don't see poison necs as that crazy powerful. As aforementioned my only real beef is how little outside help they need vs act bosses/sam once the build gets some end game gear. The fast CB dealing builds at least require amp these days to be truly effective. Hammers are also similar to pstrike in the aspect that they really shine towards mid/endgame and are solo friendly against act bosses. Hammers have to be up in the fray to do good damage though.


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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:04 am 

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Izron wrote:
Tsume wrote:
And his Trang Oul set too by the way : a "mini-Bramble" (gloves 25%) + Teleport like Enigma and Lower Resist = LoL.

Trangs set is fine the way it is.

-The +psn% bonus is a set mod now (before they used to just have +psn% damage on them for any character.)
-Theres nothing about **Trang set** that has to do with lower resist, thats just on the necro anyhow.
-Tele as a set bonus is just freakin sweet. I even tried the 4x trang parts on my warcry barb last season (to give him tele) before i made enigma just to play around and it was pretty fun.

Saying it is "fine" doesn't explain at all why only the OP necros need the privilege to have a mini-Bramble and Teleport while all others classes have to make a choice between Bramble, Enigma and elemental armor + facets to get pierce.

I would like some real arguments that enlighten me about how this is balanced.


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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:45 am 
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drrod wrote:
Nerfing the damage a bit definitely wouldn't break the build


ya - if there was a dmg buff in the past few ladders, it can probably be removed as the psn strike necro used to be pretty solid dmg wise and not over kill. I have re-attached my video from a few years ago so you can see how fast the life bar of a few champ zerkers goes down to gauge the dmg value. I believe that I did edit the video a bit to shorten the fight sequence. It took MUCH longer than the video shows to actually kill those 2 guys, I just didn't want to bore people. As you can see, I am wearing Bramble (pre-nerf) and using Death's web. Not sure if I had trang gloves or not as I can't remember when that set was changed.

http://blue.arimyth.com/PoisonStrike-Technique1.avi

drrod wrote:
Having to actually hit a monster to deal the full poison strike damage would be a cool concept as well


When I played the build - which I think was 2 ladders ago - this is what you needed to do. When I smacked something, I would generally always hit it about 2-4 times with my wand to make sure my poison "stuck". Early on, I would hit once and run away as soon as possible and the monster would turn green and then back to normal right away letting me know that my long duration strike didn't actually hit him and I was getting instead the much weaker puff cloud. I actually found the silly little puff cloud thing that Soulmancer added to be a nuisance as it didn't allow me to know if I actually got my strike in or not. I think though people complained and Soulmancer some how matched the could duration to the strike duration or something and made it much easier for you to get a successful strike.

I think part of the "balance" problem is that beyond about lvl90, this game is a playground. The items out there have far too much variance to ever really balance things around. When you can have character that vary between 10 skills, or 80 stat points it becomes very hard to keep the game interesting for people who don't have the super-man gear and to keep it from being trivial to those who have farmed every item and rune. I think the bottom line is that there really isn't much of a point to bothering and people should just look at Hell as a great big playground to use your fancy toys.

If you really want a "balanced" game that is challenging and difficult - it isn't all that hard to do. Just get together a party of 2 or 3 and limit your item use and tackle quests at about 2-5 levels above your current skill. Given that so many people skip past things though and power level to the end game, I find their requests for balance and adjustments a bit hollow.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:34 am 

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We're all well aware most builds can become pretty powerful endgame. The point I was trying to get across is powerful poison builds need zero assistance from a party to kill even the hardest bosses. How many times have you run Hell Samhain and Hell act bosses solo? All the LoS shadows and I'm sure some of the LoS heroes can be killed solo via a poison class. You're talking like these bosses are a cakewalk for any character late game, which certainly isn't the case.

I'm not dead set on balancing anything, I'd be fine if things were left as is. I hardly play for the "challenge" of this mod. Just trying to point out that in the end game, poison necros(and I'm sure rabies can as well, even with the "nerf") are accomplishing what almost no other builds can - soloing endgame bosses with ease.


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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:48 am 
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drrod wrote:
We're all well aware most builds can become pretty powerful endgame. The point I was trying to get across is powerful poison builds need zero assistance from a party to kill even the hardest bosses. How many times have you run Hell Samhain and Hell act bosses solo? All the LoS shadows and I'm sure some of the LoS heroes can be killed solo via a poison class. You're talking like these bosses are a cakewalk for any character late game, which certainly isn't the case.


Seems like a barb of fury druid can do most of the quest bosses solo.
Rabies druid should be able to do it if a psn necro can.
I have seen Hammerdins do Hell bosses solo
Summon necros can do quest bosses with amp + A1 merc.
I suspect that with the right gear and defense paladins can knock out most bosses with a combination of zeal and crushing blow.

With the right end game gear, they probably can.

I can't speak for LoS and I know that the IM on Hell Sammy is a real problem. The ability to do Hell Sammy is most certainly an area where psn builds shine. I have been toying around with bringing my rabies druid in to do NM Sammy since Norm Sammy was such a breeze for him, but I can't be bothered to spend the god awful boring amount of time it takes to actually get to Sammy.

The flipside to poison builds is that they kind of suck in a party. By the time you actually get your poison applied a monster is generally dead already.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:26 pm 
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I'd love to see any of those other classes do Baal or Sammy with only a belt of pots and no items above lvl 90.

Suck in a party? You truly do not know anything about real game play.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:37 pm 

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Ugh really? almost every class can be over powered if u take the time to get the proper gear for them. Thats the whole point of HU gear.. Thats why we play the game if u could get a tyreals or cons ring on b net we would very well be playing on here would we? Yes some bosses are better for some classes than others but that is the point. If all classes could kill all monsters then there would be no point in co-op or have a /f list.


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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:42 am 
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5speed wrote:
Ugh really? almost every class can be over powered if u take the time to get the proper gear for them. Thats the whole point of HU gear.. Thats why we play the game if u could get a tyreals or cons ring on b net we would very well be playing on here would we? Yes some bosses are better for some classes than others but that is the point. If all classes could kill all monsters then there would be no point in co-op or have a /f list.


But Psn necro doesnt need gear to be OP. That's the whole point and psn necro is best for all bosses. Except Los necro.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerf Psn Necro?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:04 am 

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I haven't really seen poison necs in hell, but I saw a Psn Necro kill nm Diablo in 15 seconds today, and he was 6 spawned. Granted he was a high level but still never heard of that. Another issue no one has addressed is the fact that not only are they BEAST against bosses but they trash kill just as fast as sorcs. A build that can have mass summons, solo bosses, kills trash, has tons of curses, and requires mediocre gear to do so... Overpowered. The simple fact that suddenly there are a hoard of poison necros speaks for itself.


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