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 Post subject: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:58 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
Posts: 895
I think both types of characters need some sort of re-haul in some form or way to make them useful. Vengeance other than an aura bitch should be able to at least kill trash mobs , farm and not suck complete ass.

The question to really ask is - are these classes really completely hopeless or is there a way to actually make them enjoyable/fun to an extent of which they are not now because they are very crappy builds. I think a lot of people see them as hopeless but maybe there is a way to actually make them playable again and that is the purpose of this thread.

I think MA sins will fare much better than vengeance paladins mainly because of max fade + claw block but damage wise they will probably suck due to the fact that charge up skills are too slow. Gearing a Ele Ma sin is a little easier than gearing the vengeance paladin but gearing both is relatively hard as you fight between survivability/damage but as ele ma sin will get the 20% free DR she fares much better.


Hopefully several people try these classes during the beta test to see how the buffs impacted them but based on SP tests vengeance paladins look a little better but I don't quite ever see them being anything other than an aura bitch even with damage buff to vengeance. Survivability is a major problem for vengeance paladins imo.

They might still suck but I was going to test one on SP but then I realized I have no idea how the hell to gear one. Don't take this post TOO seriously as I hardly ever see a vengeance paladin ever finding usefulness.. just like the MA Ele sins.

Just with a basic test:

L50 Vengeance 300 stre - Last Wish weapon - 445-817 1h dmg
21-40K vengeance damage -but of course 21-40k with DS is 42-80k if I'm not mistaken.

Not bad but highly doubt L50 vengeance is attainable
And Last Wish - Zod,Cham just for the weapon alone.
+300 stre = wtf lol dunno why I put that there

Gearing the vengeance paladin becomes the ultimate question.

i'm curious as to how anyone in particular would gear a vengeance paladin and how would u differentiate between survivability/damage gear wise.

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 523
Vengeance was/is one of the extremely "niche" builds, never good at anything except aura bitch. I've never really played on for just that reason. Id venture to guess, gearing them would be somewhat similar to that of an melee-ele druid except you can't really focus on one element. Well, you could but would need multiple gearsets, and not really worth it. The AoE change while helpful, will never make them a powerhouse vs trash, and in all truthfulness not much would. I would think they would do well with procs from striking and on struck items, such as Wonder with their conv applied should do decent dmg.

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
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Wait. How would they do good with proc items? Does the %dmg get applied to the proc? i.e. say your vengeance is 1000% cold dmg and u proc a L40 blizz, the 1000% cold applies to the L40 blizz dmg?

Eh just tested on SP they kinda suck w/ proc items :o

Eh Dunno actually procs maybe not that bad.. its hard to tell in Hell moor.

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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I'd think the proc would be more like supplemental dmg, which due to maxed conv would do a bit. Like I said, I've not played one, just tossing an idea for possibly helping it a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:55 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
Posts: 895
Yea see what your saying now. I guess some builds will forever suck. lol

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:19 pm
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Location: Reno NV
Vengeance and MA are already both being buffed. Vengeance got some AOE novas on hit, maybe something else as well, I'm not sure. MA buffed through the synergies and enabling claws in Armageddon+Valor RWs. Pheonix isn't that terrible when using the meteor proc, but last I played the ice/lightning ones were in pretty bad shape. I expect both to still be pretty bad but it's a start.


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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:40 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
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Yea they got some buffs. I tested Vengeance in SP.. it's not that bad but you're going to need hella twinked gear and just a bad ass perfect char almost just to kill tough trash.

The valor/armageddon buff in claws might make be pretty decent. Prob gonna do some tests in a sec.

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:05 am 
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I know before the vengeance change I could just manage a3 hell barely. But I had 55 pierce to all 3 element plus conviction. With the setup I had tho my survivability sucked. If I got surrounded by flayers I was dead before I could attack once.

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:07 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
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So why not implement some kind of buff to vengeance paladins during the beta or something and even ma sins as well? Why just let these builds stay as mediocre as they have always been. We should try to make them playable in the least.. the more builds that are viable the better the replay value.

So lets think of possible buffs to help both classes or lets just let them still suck lol either way idc actually. Im just waiting for buff to reset :o damn I want to play lol

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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Location: Central America - Honduras - S.P.S.
make those builds glass cannons... so many things has been disscused about vengenace, many changes has been done... i do not like the actual nova of vengeance tbh, looks ugly and innappropiate, last one (the cloud multielement thing) was nice and just needed a bigger radio, doesnt matter if it was invisible radio effect, dragontail has an invisible damage radio. But my point is, if nothing has worked to this time, buff damage greatly and add a drawback, this may make easier all the job... Maybe, making all vengeance runewords and items on 2handed stuff, and with great damage buff would do for vengeance... and for assasin she need to get all effects on all charges combined... aim for just 1 charge to use meteor is estressing, mix all 3 charges on each charge and thats is, and the more charge the more damage, thats it OR charge1=damage normal charge2=same damage with pierce and charge3= damage+pierce+increased % damage and still all effects combined on each charge.


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 Post subject: Re: MA-ele sins/Vengeance Paladin
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
Posts: 523
Lee wrote:
So why not implement some kind of buff to vengeance paladins during the beta or something and even ma sins as well? Why just let these builds stay as mediocre as they have always been. We should try to make them playable in the least.. the more builds that are viable the better the replay value.

So lets think of possible buffs to help both classes or lets just let them still suck lol either way idc actually. Im just waiting for buff to reset :o damn I want to play lol
Therein lies the dilemma, vengeance has always sucked ass. Are people so bored, that now they want one of those abhorrently useless skills to suddenly work well, vs trash AND bosses? IMO, should be one or the other, not both. Next we'll be buffing sacrifice, yes I know zeal is a synergy, but it's an analogy. The AoE on veng, is kind of meh, small radius so narrow impact zone. Next it'll get an effect similar to zeal. The fact that veng is a single target slow as hell attack will mean it will always suck vs trash, unless it's totally rewritten to be like an ele-zeal type skill.

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