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 Post subject: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:13 pm 
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Reduce the potency of low level amp :

current progression:
45 52 56 60 64 66 68 70 72 73 74 75

Proposed progression:
30 34 38 42 46 50 52 54 56 58 60 62

Reduce the potency of decrep from 33% to 25%

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:20 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
I dont agree with this. It would make it so you NEED a necro in your party or you will have 30 minute boss battles.


Oh you mean like when you try to play the game without using the amp + CB combo?

Ya - that's the point. This game is far to focused around physical dmg.

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Nerfing all physical dmg builds by requiring a necro isnt the way to balance that then.

Also..out of my 8 or so chars only 2 are melee.

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 Post subject: Re: Small Update
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:03 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Nerfing all physical dmg builds by requiring a necro isnt the way to balance that then.

Also..out of my 8 or so chars only 2 are melee.


How do elemental dmg characters deal with bosses then? I mean NOTHING comes close to Amp+CB. You can max out an elemental skill and all its synergies and gear up for that skill - and you are still better off using a fast wpn, fast melee skill with crushing blow and amp. It isn't even close.

I took my Vengence paladin with lvl20 vengence, max holy fire synergy, and lvl23 conviction (-80% resists) and ran him against normal diablo and I was TONS better off by swapping out my highlords for an Atmas and using goreriders and zeal. That is just nonsense.

Level 2 Amp gives -52% physical resistance. Just a single amulet and BAM, you have over 50% of the enemy's resists gone. There is nothing anywhere close to that for elemental builds. I could almost understand if elemental builds did more dmg against bosses, sure gimp their effect a bit - but physical dmg just rips apart elemental dmg.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:09 pm 
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instead of nerfing amp like sick
why not buff lower res to 120%

make it go up 8% all lvls till it reaches 120% then make it 1 % till 130%?
from skill lvl 1 - 25
8 - 16 - 24 - 32 - 40 - 48 - 56 - 64 - 72 -80 - 88 - 96 -104 -112 -120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:49 pm 
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Kannli wrote:
instead of nerfing amp like sick
why not buff lower res to 120%

make it go up 8% all lvls till it reaches 120% then make it 1 % till 130%?
from skill lvl 1 - 25
8 - 16 - 24 - 32 - 40 - 48 - 56 - 64 - 72 -80 - 88 - 96 -104 -112 -120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130


I dont agree with this. It would make it so you NEED a necro in your party or you will have 30 minute boss battles.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:55 pm 
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ok make lower res a lvl 1 skill like amplify then ?

make it possible to buy wands with lvl 10 lr charges lvl req 40 ?

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:56 pm 

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Bosses need less life.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:57 pm 

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Still doesn't solve the problem of non-necro elemental builds. All that does is further buff the already overpowered poison necro. Instead lower elemental res on enemies across the board so all elemental builds can actually do damage. Elemental is supposed to do more than phys, since more enemies are elemental immune and you can't leech from elemental damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:04 pm 
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For starters elemental chars are made to trash and deal damage to bosses and melee chars are made to tank and deal damage to bosses.

Elemental chars can use -res on gear to reduce boss resistance along with LR, conviction and holy auras. Melee only gets amp for that. Melee chars also need to deal with IM.

Testing Atmas ammy with high level against norm diablo is not a accurate way to balance a lvl 62 item that gives lvl 2 amp. Use Atmas amulet and try to solo a hell act boss, its much harder.

My suggestion is make LR more available for non necros...maybe an item with lvl 2-4 charges.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Testing Atmas ammy with high level against norm diablo is not a accurate way to balance a lvl 62 item that gives lvl 2 amp. Use Atmas amulet and try to solo a hell act boss, its much harder.


Still easier than trying to solo a hell act boss with elemental dmg.

I suppose it is a moot point, the mod has progressed this far along and the only real way to go back is to scale back boss HP. That is FAR too laborious as is reducing monster resists across the board. I suppose the only quick fix is to boost -resist from items and skills to some how try and catch up. Not really elegant, but probably the better course.

So boost conviction, boost LR, boost items, etc. Maybe then a boss battle won't always be the no-brainer choice of using Amp instead of Lower Resist.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:26 pm 
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High boss hp is the main problem, yes. Not all of the elemental attacks are equal either...there are a few that are 100 times better than the rest for killing bosses.

Another problem is that most people who play casters are terrible and always die at bosses. I've never had problems playing or playing with an elemental character that acted as the main damage dealer, as long as I had a good tank.

Boosting -res on gear could help, just dont over do it. As could reducing boss HP, even reduce the values on CB. But nerfing low level amp would hurt alot of melee builds and parties that rely on that lvl 2 amp to when there is not a necro in the party.

Perhaps even add an amulet with ctc lvl 2 LR, give that to a good tank and then proceed to cast your spells on a boss.

Over all...i think reducing the ammount of HP of bosses and lowering the ammount of health CB removes from a boss is the best way to handle this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:19 pm 

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remember that lowering hp would automatically reduce the disparity between CB and non-physical damage, since CB is a percentage. higher boss hp = higher crushing blows.

the thing is that diablo ii wasn't made to be an endurance game. if a boss doesn't kill you in 3 minutes, he's not going to do it in 6 minutes... so why waste another 3 minutes delaying the inevitable?

i'd vote for monsters like berserkers, mariliths and wyrms to have their hp reduced to half of their current value, and diablo / andy / general hatestorm / etc to have maybe 33% or so of current.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:11 am 
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teprac wrote:
i'd vote for monsters like berserkers, mariliths and wyrms to have their hp reduced to half of their current value, and diablo / andy / general hatestorm / etc to have maybe 33% or so of current.


Well - some of that is going to get implemented if Soulmancer reduces the max spawn from 3 down to 2. That will result in a much smaller amount of HP for bosse and also cut down on the time to get to bosses by reducing the HP of champs.

Granted it will make the well built parties of 3-4 players cut through this game even better, but I have little sympathy for that as they can simply tackle things at a lower level than required and/or not using such power builds. I think that Soulmancer has been depressed in the past at how quickly effective teams race the ladder and defeat Hell Baal and has responded by jacking the difficulty. The reality is that a well built and well played team has about 20x the killing power as the standard pack of yokels who hop on to Hell unleashed for a little bit of fun, so balancing around those Power Teams can be a deceptive things.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:25 am 

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yeah my friends and i initially started and leveled through normally. we worked up without any help, using items that we found, etc.

duriel wiped the floor with us so hard... we couldn't take him at all, it was just a slaughter. it was sad to me that playing through naturally with a group of three led us to a boss that we could literally not defeat together.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:12 am 
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Elemental casters also have two methods of lowering resistance, which stack together... Lower Resist and Conviction Aura.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:11 am 
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Soulmancer wrote:
Elemental casters also have two methods of lowering resistance, which stack together... Lower Resist and Conviction Aura.


There are a few things to think about though. If you consider only one player (i know it's a team mod, but still...) The caster must waste time to cast lower resistance, while the melee character gets to swing away get life back in the vast majority of cases.

Mercs mostly die at bosses unless heavily twinked, and item-based conviction levels/ merc aura effects are low.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:07 am 
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I'm sorry but i have to disagree that phys dominates ele damage. My 81 meteor sorc can take down nm white dragon in under a minute with a tank around. If i have time to prepare a patch and have someone with level 1 lr/conviction it is over in less than 10 seconds. Some elemental builds are good against bosses, some are good against trash. an elemental build can pierce a non immune enemy by well over 120% endgame, a phys melee build cant get -phys res on his equip meaning they NEED a necro or a form of amp on themselves/party member. 1 other thing is that it is alot easier to take elemental resistances into -figures in hell than it is with phys res. the only way to lower phys res is with amp. Ele builds, have Lr, Conv, and passive pierce from equip meaning its easy to get -200 res on any boss. There is a SC ele party going right now iirc, have your meteor sorc drop 15 meteors on a patch then get someone to lure the boss to the tank (who is standing at the back of the fire patch, Now watch the boss topple in less time than a melee would take. Static sorcs clear maps in less time than a full team can, even faster with 2 player spawn. Ele builds are only bad if bad players are controlling them

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:21 am 

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Personally I would nerf CB before amp. There's a lot of builds that rely on amp outside of just melee/CB characters. My quick fix would be something like halving most the CB mods(2-3%CB gores, 5% weapons, etc) on items, and removing it from Ber runes altogether.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:35 am 
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drrod wrote:
Personally I would nerf CB before amp. There's a lot of builds that rely on amp outside of just melee/CB characters. My quick fix would be something like halving most the CB mods(2-3%CB gores, 5% weapons, etc) on items, and removing it from Ber runes altogether.


There is the valid point though that without CB, most boss battles are b.o.r.i.n.g which I will concede is true. We already have a pretty rampant issue of high levels doing quests for low levels because people are not entertained by doing the quest legit and I am not sure it is worth making that matter even worse by decreasing crushing blow.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:57 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I'm sorry but i have to disagree that phys dominates ele damage. My 81 meteor sorc can take down nm white dragon in under a minute with a tank around.


That is only due to the stacking nature of fire that allows it to have an extremely fast attack. It is like having 10 sorceress simultaneously hitting the dragon. Much like Blaze, meteor sorcs are an oddity

Try taking out the HellForge dragon with a cold based sorc.
Or compare non-sorc elemental/physical dmg builds.

Oh ya, try taking on the white dragon without a tank ;) No matter how strong the meteor sorc is, without tank assistance they can't compete. You can't say the same for a physical dmg character.

Bottom line - physical dmg rules this mod.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:36 am 

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You all are suggesting that lr be buffed or given to non-necros more often and yet you forget that in the end almost every party is gonna have someone who is physical and they will want amp, thus lr will not be used.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:41 am 
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Its a team game.

I agree with dod, if you have a tank any ele char can kill a boss that isnt immune to said element. (besides a few builds perhaps)

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:45 am 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
I agree with dod, if you have a tank any ele char can kill a boss that isnt immune to said element. (besides a few builds perhaps)


wanna bet on that?
you'd be better off giving that tank crushing blow and letting them do it themselves.

fire/cold/psn druid - you are best off getting a fast weapon and CB against bosses rather than using your elemental dmg. Works tons better.

Vengence paladin - rely on the -defense aspect of conviction to ensure your hits land, switch to zeal and use crushing blow and amp. Works tons better.

Pheonix assasin - either be super talented and time your meteors to super stack, or just switch to a kick and rely on that speed + CB to kill a boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:57 am 
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In that case you would be better off having a team of Psn Necro, WW barb, fury Druid, hammer paladin, and meteor sorc.

Sure CB could use a small nerf but its all about the way YOU want to play the game.

"Hey we should have a pally and sorc team and the pally will use convic while sorc kills bosses"

"nah lets just amp and ill use CB"

"ok sure"

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:01 am 
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your reply makes no sense.

You make the statement that elemental build + tank = dead boss.
I say - ya, not the case.

Then you babble some nonsense. The correct response is "ya, you are right blue and I was wrong.". Please use the correct response next time.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:19 am 
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Incidentally, what about this idea that I had a while ago of adding some -resists to amplify damage. Or just combining amplify dmg and lower resist in to a single curse.

It is true - even if you did buff LR, no one would ever use it because everyone always wants amp.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:14 pm 
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make amp static at 50% and add -physical res to lower res and give it the same gains as lower res

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Sorry again but you are wrong blue. a good sorc can kill bosses just as well as a melee if they are supported as well as melee builds are. Melee builds are great when there is amp around, sorcs are great when there is lr and or convic around. All a sorc needs is a nec spamming blades and there is the tank, much like a melee needs a nec casting amp (though they dont need blades etc). An ES sorc can make a major major tank, especialy if there is a paladin with purity around. Eddies sorc can tank act bosses with insane mana regen and the odd potion due to good high mana. End game the need for a sorc to have Lr/convic is even less as they get well over -100 res passive from equip. Fire sorc -res: you could have the following. -55 from fathom, -10 gloves, -10 boots, -40 armour, -18 helm and phoenix shield for -25. There is no way in hell a melee can get passive pierce and so is reliant on a ctc item, charges or a nec. Even then they are still nowhare near what the sorc can get on herself alone. If an ele build is supported as much as melee builds are supported they kill non immune bosses in the same time, if not less. My first meteor sorc was used to kill nm moloch for my team, even though he was fire immune, drrod ran 1 point conviction and bob used lr, that broke the immune and he was killed without the tanks needing a potion.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:10 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Bottom line - physical dmg rules this mod.


I think I know what this is about now I read your statement again. Physical damage is outdoing your venger and your rabies druid so you think it should be dropped back. The problem is, vengance is unviable endgame as is the new rabies druid without mass skillers and facets and the very best gear, what you are proposing is that all builds that work endgame with reasonable equip should be made unviable too. I really like the idea of vengance using the zeal animation (though maybe capping it at 4 hits)
If crushing blow is such a pain, remove it from high end equip and make it only spawn on normal tier weapons. That would mean upgrading that crushflange would be a viable option and an upped bonesnap would also be a decent choice for a barb. Remove any cb from runewords unless they have a ber in them. Another option would be to add a penalty to any item with crushing blow on it. -durability%, -life%, -all stats, -res or -attack speed. both would work as a panalty and make crushing blow a reckless type of damage to use. High life drain along with cb on ber runes in weapons at 1% per second would discourage getting a weapon and filling it with ber runes.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:32 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I think I know what this is about now I read your statement again. Physical damage is outdoing your venger and your rabies druid so you think it should be dropped back.


No - it is about the mathematics of damage and this is where you lack of understanding of the game shines through. Physical dmg shines for several very clear and obvious reasons:

1. General reduced monster resists to physical dmg.
By in large, physical resistance is one of the lowest in the groups. Take any of the Prime Evils and Physical is lower than all the elemental resists. NM mephisto for example - 60% physical, 75% to all elements.

This means that if you are doing 5000 dmg you only do 2000 physical and 1250 elemental. The difference between those numbers is 60% more physical damage.

Once you factor in that crushing blow can do massively more dmg per hit than any element spell those percentages start to really add up quickly.

The lowered monster resist also comes in to play on breaking immunities. I have lvl23 Conviction that drops things by 80% resist, but anything that is Element enchanted (example - Fire Enchanted) will not be broken. However decrep/amp will frequently break stone skins. This is because Fire Enchanted gives a +75% boost whereas StoneSkin only gives a 50% physical resistance. Considering that -res only apply at 1/5th their rate on immune bosses the 25% difference might as well be a 125% difference because it makes that big of an impact.

2. Physical dmg is generally applied faster
With the exception of fire spells and some nova effects, physical dmg comes in fast and furious. Fury druids and WW barbs are insanely fast. As people are realizing in this mod, speed is crucial in your DPS rates. Compare how many fireballs you can fly off your fingers in the amount of time a Fireclaw bear can hit a monster.

Think of this this way, with 200% FCR a sorc will max out at a 7 frame cast rate. A bear shits in the woods faster than that with only a little IAS

3. Deadly strike
There is nothing in the elemental world that compares to deadly strike. When Deadly was a fairly rare thing, this was balanced. But with it so prevalent in this mod, it is crazy. The ability to double your final damage is incredible. And remember, Deadly strike comes in at the END of the formula so it really is that powerful.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
If crushing blow is such a pain, remove it from high end equip and make it only spawn on normal tier weapons.


The problem is that boss battle turn in to boredom then. I am agreeing with the people in this thread who have argued against me that you just can't break the amp/cb rut that we are in. Sucks - but true.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
No - it is about the mathematics of damage and this is where you lack of understanding of the game shines through. Physical dmg shines for several
very clear and obvious reasons:
hold on,
Blue_Myriddn wrote:
As I have said repeatedly, it isn't just about comparing two numbers - you need to look at the entire package.

In your rabies druid topic you go on about how poison is applied from a safe distance and as such should be lower. You also say that you have no problems dealing with bosses by using poison. I don't quite get why you are bothered about phys damage/crushing blow if elemental damage is already enough to kill bosses. I have killed enough bosses with elemental damage often enough to know that an ele build can kill just as well as amp + CB can. Only however if it is used propperly and to good effect. Everyone is used to amp + CB so much now, they forget that the same principles applied to ele damage work just as well (lr/conv + tank/summons). Ele builds can get alot of +% damage as well as - enemy res. I like to think of the +% as deadly strike and -res + lr/conv as crushing blow for a melee. Pierce a boss to -100 res (easily done with a party) and nomatter the element you are using, it will destroy the boss in no time. Amp + cb is used more often, but just because something is used less often, it don't mean its not as effective. Tk, Meteor, Blaze and Blizzard are the 3 sorc boss killing skills. All work fantasticaly if you focus on reducing bosses res, With enough passive pierce you dont even need Lr most of the time and the nec can use decrep to further control the boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:52 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
your reply makes no sense.

You make the statement that elemental build + tank = dead boss.
I say - ya, not the case.

Then you babble some nonsense. The correct response is "ya, you are right blue and I was wrong.". Please use the correct response next time.


But it is the case, lots of good players can and have played successful elemental teams. I don't understand why you think elemental builds can't kill bosses at all.

And then you say things like this: "Then you babble some nonsense. The correct response is "ya, you are right blue and I was wrong." Please use the correct response next time."

We got rid of LMT as a moderater and it was a good move for the community we don't need a neo LMT.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:00 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
your reply makes no sense.

You make the statement that elemental build + tank = dead boss.
I say - ya, not the case.

Then you babble some nonsense. The correct response is "ya, you are right blue and I was wrong.". Please use the correct response next time.


Way to be terribly offensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:08 pm 
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ya, it was offensive but he is being stubborn and silly and I am getting tired of explaining the obvious.

Can elemental builds kill bosses? Sure, I even uploaded a video of my rabies druid doing it.

Can elemental builds kill bosses as effecitvely as physical builds? A few can, but no where near as consistently because PHYSICAL DMG OUTPACES ELEMENTAL DMG IN THIS MOD.

Elemental dmg does a great job at AoE, but not as good as physical dmg does when it is applied to AoE (multishot/ww, etc).

Poison builds are actually in an interesting sub-category because of their odd ability to strike at a distance and not requiring a boss to be in a specific posistion (such as meteor or blaze). As such, I tend not to have such a big issue with them. Granted it might be nice to have an "Atma's Scarab" type amulet for them it really isn't terribly necesary. The safety of being on the other side of the map while your poison slowly takes out the boss really goes a long way. Trappers used to have this same convenience before this mod adjusted things to put traps at an assasin's feet.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Melee kills bosses better than Caster.

Caster kills trash better than Melee.

Either type of char can do both things though.

Saying A is the only option because its better than B is silly and stubborn.

I think if LR and/or conviction was available at lvl 1 like amp then it would help people get used to playing elemental teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:33 pm 
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I am not talking melee vs caster. I am talking:

Physical kills bosses better than Elemental.
Physical kills trash better than Elemental.

Either type of char can do both things, but Physical just does it MUCh better.

This is why Amp is the only option that you will ever hear asked for in Team games with a good physical character.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:43 pm 
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An assasin can run away from her traps... Maybe you missed that?:lol:
Just because you fail at playing elemental builds doesn't mean they are bad. Blame the player not the builds.
The correct responce from mraw should have been "Stfu and Gtfo, come back when you know what you are talking about"

Why do you make topics like this? In all seriousness i would like to know.
You make a topic and expect everyone to aggree with you. If someone says "no sorry thats wrong" you tell them to shut up and they have no clue about it. Incase you hadn't noticed, alot of people who disagree with your constant stream of garbage are actually good players who have played many builds over the years and have alot of feedback to give. As soon as that feedback differs from your own oppinion it is branded as theorycrafting and wrong by your enormous ego.
You are a long way off being the most experienced player here, as am I. Infact most of the more experienced players very rarely post on the forums as they can't be arsed repeating themselves trying to tell you when you are wrong. Saying that ele builds cant kill bosses is false. As such an appology to mraw wouldn't be out of place as he has been keeping things civil and discussing this in a decent way. Don't bother making topics if you want every responce to be "yes you are 100% right, thank you, you are a hu god and we know nothing in comparison to you" because that will never happen. The best thing you could do would be to make your topic and just lock it as, if someone else has another opinion that differs from your own you dont even bother listening and tell them they are wrong.

you seem to be reveling in your roll as LmT's apprentice. You are doing a good job so far :shock:

Edit: Oh phys kills trash better than elemental? You obviously never seen my old static sorc in action (I was gonna say ask around and people will tell you how well she cleared but you wont listen anyway so nevermind). She could also kill bosses with summons or a barb etc to tank. Elemental bowas kill alot faster than melee bowas in a confined space like maggot lair or a dungeon. Multishot is the only real AoE phys skill that can be compared to an elemental AoE skill. Multishot is nothing when compared to an elemental AoE build played propperly. Ele builds can generaly pierce resistances to below 0% phys AoE builds are reliant on a nec or a ctc amp item to get the same effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:18 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I am not talking melee vs caster. I am talking:

Physical kills bosses better than Elemental.
Physical kills trash better than Elemental.

Either type of char can do both things, but Physical just does it MUCh better.

This is why Amp is the only option that you will ever hear asked for in Team games with a good physical character.



you never seen a good frost nova sorc in action mine last season was clearing the tundra in 7 mins.a ww barb couldn't drop packs of trash like she could.and u say casters cant kill bosses she pwnd szzak in hell

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:24 pm 
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Sesshomaru wrote:
you never seen a good frost nova sorc in action mine last season was clearing the tundra in 7 mins.a ww barb couldn't drop packs of trash like she could.


Run her up against a multishot zon.

Sesshomaru wrote:
and u say casters cant kill bosses she pwnd szzak in hell


blue_myriddn wrote:
Can elemental builds kill bosses? Sure, I even uploaded a video of my rabies druid doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:59 pm 
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you keep saying you didn't say ele builds can kill bosses
[quote=Blue_myriddn"]You make the statement that elemental build + tank = dead boss.
I say - ya, not the case.[/quote]

im sure you can see why I'm slightly confused here.

Multishot is a good trash clearing skill, They are still outclassed by a nova/fnova sorc. light nova sorc has static for huge range all around her. she also has a shield to block with and a nice energy shield to help her tank.
f nova sorc has insane def, massive damage returned when struck by ranged and melee attacks and also slows and freezes attackers. You can solo hell tundra in no time with those builds. faster than a multishot zon could alone anyway. Sess is spot on, my sorc last season was clearing tundra well before my barbs level 40 battle orders wore off her. Try playing a nova sorc blue, maybe we will listen to your theorys once you have played one...

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 Post subject: Re: Balancing Amp and Crushing Blow
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:55 pm 
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If you want to fix physical damage:

Remove a1 phys mercs
Cap amp at 50%
Remove cb entirely, except for 1% per 3 hard points in smite

Now you're required to have various elemental dps chars to get through the game, rather than one necro and one physical dps.


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