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 Post subject: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:17 am 
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http://blue.arimyth.com/BossResists-patch.html
Just asking why nm bosses values aren't altered? Now Duriel/Meph/Diablo is phys proof without amp. With amp you do like 1/100hp per 10sec.
NM chars don't have access to the best wpns, lower hp, lower LL, lower if any deadly, pdr is ok when you have hell char to collect gems for you. Almost no abs (no shield), skills not maxed. Bosses hp isn't that much lower than hell ones.
I and Lockdown tried Duriel/Meph/Diablo:
Duriel - amped you could kill him, took maybe 5min, almost wpn broke (160-640 dmg wpn with 154ias)
Meph - he crushed us after taking 3% of his hp
Diablo - Ask Dew or someone how it went. My auradin with maxed firerest/light for max abs + 3x medi + 2 other healers + amp + 3ppl spawn (we tried it normally with just 3 of us but failed) = Lockdown's amazons spear broke in the process of poking him in eye. after 10min of impaling jabing and fury he died - he stood still all the time trying to kill damageproof auradin.

I'm not so sure that leaving current proposed phys res value will change anything without amp change or phys pierce. Current dmg sources underpowered/broken are mag/phys and just accidentally these two have only 1 way to lower res (amp/dec and mag pierce) and it's still 40% of what casters can. I see some analogy here.
PS. I once posted different amp formula but it was ignored so for now just testing water
Pss. I'm a noob(first fury druid on HU) so maybe did something wrong but here's the wpn I used http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/9194 ... hot126.jpg, prolly needed 511 with 200 ias and 60 deadly.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:28 am 

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well the normal and nm bosses phy res is lowered slightly since the charm resistance is lowered.
Duri has now 78% phy res in nm and after the patch he'll have 58%.
Its not a huge amount but 20% is still some so its gona be a little easyer to kill him.
But without amp the others are still gona be a bitch.
I think the phy res on the charm should be 20% for all bosses. Atm for the patch baal will have 95% phy res, so you're not gona do shit to him without max amp...

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:54 am 
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Duriel uses smite and it gives him extra phys res. around 15% on nm. On hell he has 101% which means amp works 1/5 only. Anyone who tried to kill him with melee knows what kind of bitch he is.
Imo all phys res of bosses should be 0 or negative 100 ;/


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:27 am 

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Notes: Physical Resistance gained by these charms does not invoke the 1/5 immunity penalty if the Boss gains immunity because of the charm.

How does this work with smite?! I mean he'll be immune because of the charm and smite.

And I kinda agree with you, phy res should be reduced maybe not as violently as you said though :P

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:33 am 
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Quote:
How does this work with smite?! I mean he'll be immune because of the charm and smite.
He's immune without charm. 75% base + 26% smite. He's real immune not hidden like other bosses(not PI under name) so amp works 1/5. I hope Blue was aware of that... as it was pointed like 1000 times by now.

Funny tho. Duriel was/is/will be always caster killer so you need tanks to hold him but tanks(other than decoy/blades) can't hold him because can't leech/dmg him/can't recast a player.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:45 am 

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well thats kinda major sucky

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:34 am 
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would it be too much to ask if amp got buffed back to 80% ?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:51 am 
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Steel wrote:
Duriel uses smite and it gives him extra phys res. around 15% on nm. On hell he has 101% which means amp works 1/5 only. Anyone who tried to kill him with melee knows what kind of bitch he is.
Imo all phys res of bosses should be 0 or negative 100 ;/


-75, isnt -100 a cap?

is CB possible at mid to low lvls?


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:10 am 
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I killed all nm bosses with a jabber and only decrepify charges and a same level as me barbs bo. I don't think nm needs to be made easier personally.

When was the last time people giving "feedback" weren't loading multiple chars/healers to make things amazingly easy? Kinda stupid IMO considering a pure melee duo can easily complete NM.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:28 am 
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Quote:
When was the last time people giving "feedback" weren't loading multiple chars/healers to make things amazingly easy?
We did it after few fails. So that feedback with healers can be easily ignored, we couldn't kill Diablo.

If your zon did it then grats. 100 juvs and 15min of stabing? Main problem with fury it's bugged as hell, aims for cages all the time and 1st miss = other 3 shots miss. You can't leech anything from D but when he Iron maiden you you're in trouble, even with 110 pdr at that moment. + it's my first fury druid, I probably fucked some gear. nos belt, jalals, craft armor with gems, waterwalks, blood gloves, atma+crescent+hlord + res charms, blood dru rings.
Btw. Bo > oak > how on these fight. It's almost impossible to keep oak with melee gear. Meph mana burn you, diablo clears everything with nova.

I believe you should be able to kill him without extra griding of gems? Unless I missed something but last time I played untwinked psn zon I just throw a jav and he died.
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Kinda stupid IMO considering a pure melee duo can easily complete NM.
NM baal has 105% phys res, 80% with dec. Your zon died on stacked blizz. Are you sure that 2 melee can clear agony + suffering + baal? You died but what about other guys? has anyone succeeded ?
I can agree that seal/baal bosses are a joke for a good melee. Moloch died from a3 cold merc taking maybe 1000 hp from me. We had maxed oak + sob, good def so he was missing alot.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:47 am 
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Why do all you sc players always bring out the "100 juvs and took forever" argument. Actually no, I used reds and a row of purples as life savers. You all act asif the only reason people can do HC is because they carry a cube of rejuvs each. You can easily do that if you like and I do carry a cube of juvs sometimes (when im soloing i pick up all purples and usually end up using them on the baal quest).

Don't use fury, use feral or maul against him. fury is a fools errand against cages + IM.

We aint talking about making every char as strong as a current poison zon are we? I hope not.

Yeh I died but I died bucause of my own stupidity. Double stacked blizz vs a 5 frame attack (3-4 blizz per second at least) when I could have impaled it and got the same effect. We killed both + the icon that was spawned right on top of them. If I had stood still after they died I wouldn't have died, I tried to rush through the massed of blizzards though to start attacking baal and running into the edge = deadly = dead zon as she only had 4khp.

It don't change the fact that she tanked everything else with 4khp and only died because I was impatient and didn't want to wait for the blizz to dissipate.

@Gems, I don't farm, its boring. I pick up all the gems I need as I'm running through. Sharing is more common on HC as it's more of a group effort, its not hard to gather all the gems you need when you walk through each area and pick everything up.

I really don't think NM needs to be easier. It's not like its hard to make lawbringer or have a spellsteel on switch for decrep (thats what I used). As soon as decrep goes off bosses die insanely fast (should have fraps'd stuff on her). You using all damage/ias socketables? try sticking an eth in the weap or using blackhand key on switch. It makes hitting bosses MUCH easier.

Edit: also, lets not pretend untwinked chars exist outside of the 3rd/4th day of a ladder reset.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:52 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
try sticking an eth in the weap or using blackhand key on switch. It makes hitting bosses MUCH easier.


hey, I heard about this a long time ago but it didn't make sense to me. If I already have piercing attack or ignore target defense, wouldn't -25% target defense be doing nothing? Or do the other mods not work against bosses?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:53 am 
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Kannli wrote:
would it be too much to ask if amp got buffed back to 80% ?

?? :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:57 am 
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slappyNuts wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
try sticking an eth in the weap or using blackhand key on switch. It makes hitting bosses MUCH easier.


hey, I heard about this a long time ago but it didn't make sense to me. If I already have piercing attack or ignore target defense, wouldn't -25% target defense be doing nothing? Or do the other mods not work against bosses?


Ignore targets defense works on trash only, not bosses.

Piercing arrows don't mean you always hit, it just means your projectiles are no longer destroyed upon the strike, they still go through the AR/Def routine

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:02 am 
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Quote:
Why do all you sc players always bring out the "100 juvs and took forever" argument. Actually no, I used reds and a row of purples as life savers. You all act asif the only reason people can do HC is because they carry a cube of rejuvs each. You can easily do that if you like and I do carry a cube of juvs sometimes (when im soloing i pick up all purples and usually end up using them on the baal quest).
I just asked how much juvs. lol. and time. Sorry but untwinked Siq's meteo sorc killed him faster than our melee chars... fire boss. That's why I asked about juvs and how long it took.
Quote:
try sticking an eth in the weap or using blackhand key on switch. It makes hitting bosses MUCH easier.
I had 25k ar at that moment. Still not enough? I believe 50% block is worse than def. Which ofc is always ignored when posting melee max dmg. Well whatever. Didn't know that melee needs to use wands(blackhand key :D) or other silly methods in order to do dmg. Seems phys chars are fine. just need to roll good sorc orb for my fury :D
Kannli wrote:
would it be too much to ask if amp got buffed back to 80% ?
Can't do. Psn chars could lose the crown of imbalance and skillers will be needed to return to maintain balance of imbalance.
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We aint talking about making every char as strong as a current poison zon are we? I hope not.
No. But don't you think that having to use dec, gear full of pdr/mdr in order to do just normal damage is something OK? I know this mod is all about boss fights and partying but, like you said it was 2 ppl game and probably still took more than average cold nova sorc would in 3-4ppl game. Having high def/phys res on bosses kills some builds as you must go one way. You could go rubies in gear for more hp but then his fire would cook you in few secs, there's really no option. You must go dec or you're screwed, you can't even go weaken bcos you do no dmg. And I bet these changes to bosses res won't change anything. If twinked chars must fight a boss for 15min in single spawn then it's wrong. I'd understand on hell on optional bosses. Well seems we have different opinions how games should be hard but enjoyable but not frustrating.


Last edited by Steel on Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:34 am 
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Yeah diablo was fun last night like steel said blizz merc killed moloch we literally just stood there. N diablo was just a pain melee just=counters.rabies worked him down eventually. That and for some reason almost every attack he used was his fire attack. At on point all of cs was just stacked fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:42 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I killed all nm bosses with a jabber and only decrepify charges and a same level as me barbs bo. I don't think nm needs to be made easier personally.

When was the last time people giving "feedback" weren't loading multiple chars/healers to make things amazingly easy? Kinda stupid IMO considering a pure melee duo can easily complete NM.


NM is easy as hell with a melee...twinked. Back in the beginning of the ladder, with no CB and no gear, Nightmare was well...a nightmare with a melee party. Unless you were quite twinked (as I remember your Zon was), doing it with just Decreprify would be brutal.

Twinked, I blazed through NM with a melee character & max Amp in tow destroying every boss until Hell Duriel. (Party was Ares on Sum Nec, Delta on Oak or Healer, and my on Dclaw Sin). But really, there are few builds that can't preform well in NM using the absolutely best gear available for their level.
Untwinked though, there was no way I was touching NM Duriel+. Of course, the difference between my untwinked damage and twinked damage was often 2-3x.
And I'm not just speculating, our first party this ladder was based around my melee character and I also remade her once she died (and the anti-rush wasn't broken) so I've played her both twinked/untwinked to A5 Hell.

Anyway, any buffs to revert melee back to their original state is a good one, as they weren't nearly as OP as the builds we having rolling around now. The only one that was arguably unbalanced was Ber'd caddy CB Smiter, and that would've been fixed solely by nerfing Ber rune.


As far as the Physical resistance changes in Hell, they'll be solid if and only if you have a maxed Amplify Damage Necromancer in tow. They'll actually be strong as fuck (having ~90% Amplify Damage compared to now on some bosses). It's a pity that melee can't actually be used against the harder bosses in the game though.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Had we had a maxed oak and a maxed amp and a bo I'm sure it would've been no problem. We could tank the bosses all day it was doing any damage to them that was the problem. My zon had 54% LL and 64% DS plus 76% Critical Strike from Trav. She had 90 DR 90 MDR and 20% DR. Even on Dury when the necro didn't lag and got his amp off we could do maybe 4-5 damage per poke. We had Decrep from my ammy (saracens) and amp from gores(1% goes off a lot more than I thought it would). Both went off quite often. Didn't really help. I didn't chug 10000 juvs I had Mega Heals for the most part. Funny thing was I solo'd Sarina in that game while waiting for the afking to end didn't pot once. We did Mithia no pots. Meph all of a sudden I can't leech for shit and his blue orb of death decides to take away half my health. Now of course my zon doesn't have the maximum amount of health but she had around 2.8-3k at these fights because I've been putting quite a bit into strength.

TL;DR Ya our duo was doable but we had no oak no (high level) amp no bo.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:40 pm 
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@Steel, nobody said it took 15 mins, diablo took about 3 minutes and baal's waves took at most 90 seconds each. decoy on top of baal = no IM on you. In elemental teams, there will always be 1 element doing nothing, they can just stand on top of baal and suck up the curses too.

Kinda surprised you think nm is hard for melee though. decrep charges can take you through it all easily.

@Ab, even untwinked, relays barb MK1 make quick work of bosses in nm with decrep (alot more than my terrible damage at the time). Just with a death craft sword as main and a power craft in the off hand (before switching to 2 djinns that faceraped A3-5.

People are only untwinked for the first week, tops.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:07 pm 
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We had 0 life buffs which was the main problem for us. I could've xfered over a spell steel but we were counting on the random necro who joined to amp but he lagged out 4 or 5 times.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:23 am 
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@Steel, nobody said it took 15 mins, diablo took about 3 minutes and baal's waves took at most 90 seconds each. decoy on top of baal = no IM on you. In elemental teams, there will always be 1 element doing nothing, they can just stand on top of baal and suck up the curses too.
Ok, so melee is fine, just need to get a lot of stuff that normally drops in hell or higher acts to be worth it. + I said nothing about baal. Just because I haven't played fury doesn't mean I haven't played any melee... I was playing my phoenix sin early this ladder and Diablo in 4ppl game took 15min if not more, Dclawing, meteoring etc. we had dec, bo, oak, 7.5k hp total. Barb was 3 screen away because Diablo was switching to him for some reason.

Don't listen to Lockdown about his gores procing amp. He's a noob :D I told him many times I'm switching to atma yet he thought he was procing it. But it's end of the line for now. Fury is in a3 hell, everything is unbreakable. Got fucked up by having to max OAK in addition to HoW so It's lycan fury how oak build so far, still have points left.

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Kinda surprised you think nm is hard for melee though. decrep charges can take you through it all easily.
I said it's hard??? I said about act bosses only which are unbalanced phys oriented vs other subbosses. Sorry but if you kill most of the bosses, entire council spire even SS blizz dude that takes 10 dmg per kill, then meph hits you for 1k(his little ghost 400dmg) and you don't leech, you can't keep your spirits up, and he drains all your mana then something is wrong. I wasn't aware of that and it seems like it's better to just cast oak/wolfs and let casters do this.
OK, topic can be ignored/closed. I don't want to be called that I'm a noob who want to make game more easier bcos nm is walk in the park of melee already.
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People are only untwinked for the first week, tops.
I'm not so sure about this but let it be. How about guys that start the game. Should they get all hell equip just to feel how this game is easy?


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:15 am 
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Man I was procing some amp from gores when I ran NM izzy by myself :P not talking bout with you. Wasn't even wearing gores then ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:25 am 
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Oh my bad then!


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:09 am 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
@Steel, nobody said it took 15 mins, diablo took about 3 minutes and baal's waves took at most 90 seconds each. decoy on top of baal = no IM on you. In elemental teams, there will always be 1 element doing nothing, they can just stand on top of baal and suck up the curses too.
Ok, so melee is fine, just need to get a lot of stuff that normally drops in hell or higher acts to be worth it. + I said nothing about baal. Just because I haven't played fury doesn't mean I haven't played any melee... I was playing my phoenix sin early this ladder and Diablo in 4ppl game took 15min if not more, Dclawing, meteoring etc. we had dec, bo, oak, 7.5k hp total. Barb was 3 screen away because Diablo was switching to him for some reason.

Don't listen to Lockdown about his gores procing amp. He's a noob :D I told him many times I'm switching to atma yet he thought he was procing it. But it's end of the line for now. Fury is in a3 hell, everything is unbreakable. Got fucked up by having to max OAK in addition to HoW so It's lycan fury how oak build so far, still have points left.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Kinda surprised you think nm is hard for melee though. decrep charges can take you through it all easily.
I said it's hard??? I said about act bosses only which are unbalanced phys oriented vs other subbosses. Sorry but if you kill most of the bosses, entire council spire even SS blizz dude that takes 10 dmg per kill, then meph hits you for 1k(his little ghost 400dmg) and you don't leech, you can't keep your spirits up, and he drains all your mana then something is wrong. I wasn't aware of that and it seems like it's better to just cast oak/wolfs and let casters do this.
OK, topic can be ignored/closed. I don't want to be called that I'm a noob who want to make game more easier bcos nm is walk in the park of melee already.
Quote:
People are only untwinked for the first week, tops.
I'm not so sure about this but let it be. How about guys that start the game. Should they get all hell equip just to feel how this game is easy?


What? the melee gear i used had the ability to drop from the area i was using it it. I switched to the level 70 zon pike in nm act 3 and guess what, another dropped in trav like 30 mins later... Sure she had decent gear but nothing crazy, it was all crafts and gems that were easy to make. 4 people taking 15 mins on diablo is embarrassing butit's happened to me before with a few people in the group randomly running around doing nothing or exiting because they didn't bring any spare reds... an organised duo makes a complete joke ofthe mod in norm and nm though even 2 melee's. + you had oak and bo??? wow. lol.
level 22 bo only is plenty in norm and nm if you set the char up for survival + damage at the same time.

Act bosses are not hard for 2 melees without a necro in NM. Thats what you are saying, the reality is they are easier for 2 melees than they would be for 2 meteor sorcs. Why is everyone procing amp when you can proc decrep for better phys piercing ability anyway and the slow/weaken effect. Jeez just use charges of it, thats more than enough.

I'm not lisening to lockdown, i'm not listening to anything from these boards anymore, its just a complete mess of a place. I'm just letting you know that melee's have a perfectly easy time killing bosses in nm. Not as fast as a caster, but a caster is squishy, a melee isn't. I don't think a melee should kill as fast as a caster, but a caster also shouldn't tank like a melee.

Meph killed your spirits? so recast, it happens. cast it behind you instead of behind him (making it walk past him is a bad idea). If you want to hide in a corner spamming wolves in nm thats fine, you should maybe take a look at how he is set up and make some adjustments as I tanked him in nm with a 4k life zon (after bo).

I said people are only untwinked for the first week. Are you suggesting that once someone has played for a week or so, they don't hand down everything they don't need to their next chars??? They do and everyone knows they do. The only time you are trully untwinked is on your first play through with your very first char. Actually, if you start from scratch, its still crazy easy to get twinked by trading a few gems or just visiting the LLG thread. Don't pretent folks still play untwinked outside of organised partys with no twinking rules etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:12 am 
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4 people taking 15 mins on diablo is embarrassing butit's happened to me before with a few people in the group randomly running around doing nothing or exiting because they didn't bring any spare reds... an organised duo makes a complete joke ofthe mod in norm and nm though even 2 melee's. + you had oak and bo??? wow. lol.
2nd week (not counting 1 week of not being able to kill norm baal) public game, every guy was new to HU(how many new guys to HC this ladder anyway?), except me, If your duo killed on singlespawn (2ppl) in 3min then on 4 300%hp (4ppl spawn) 1 sin doing fire damage(phoenix) to fire boss taking him in 15min isn't embarrassing at all. Maybe if I was a pure phys or played with my party then it would. You should know that. Ladders ago Jarl's party with just one psn damage source was killing hell baal for just 20min? And we all know how psn back in the days on carrion rabies was.
PS I said 15min bcos wasn't sure if it was 8min or 10 or 13, I don't play with a watch on, but said that so noone would come and say "hey it's impossible to do this in 2min you noob". Felt like long time.
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I'm not lisening to lockdown, i'm not listening to anything from these boards anymore, its just a complete mess of a place. I'm just letting you know that melee's have a perfectly easy time killing bosses in nm. Not as fast as a caster, but a caster is squishy, a melee isn't. I don't think a melee should kill as fast as a caster, but a caster also shouldn't tank like a melee.
1)I was joking about not listening to him, wow
2)they have perfect time, ok
3)As far as this topic goes I only was asking if this is ok and stated that I may be wrong cuz first time fury druid and I'm not sure if these changes would help. I said nothing about lowering, just wanted to know opinion if they're doable geez. If they're now then with lowering just boss charm should be more than enough. Thanks for clarification
4)I know that melee is ok when comes for surviving... a good melee. I'd never say "hey lower diablos attack cuz his hitting hard my barbs".


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:29 pm 
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We didn't have Bo or Oak.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed phys res changes
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:46 pm 
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@Steel, don't take my comments badly, i'm not trying to mock you or anything like that, you are ne of the folks who knows what he is talking about and know how things work internaly too. The point im trying to make is, even with just a single source of level 23-25bo a mele char with 4k hp is able to tank and kill most of the nm bosses pretty fast.

The drain effectiveness is still high enough in NM that you can leech through IM pretty easily (or at least attack for 5-6 seconds before losing 40-50%hp). Any attack that only attacks 1 target (even if it is multiple hits) is pretty safe to use vs IM in nightmare.

At level 50 you can get a nice chunk of dr% without a shield and res is still easy to come by. Plus safety crafts with diamonds in could carry a non shapeshift melee druid through norm and nm. Gems are easy to get by act 1 NM after all.

Not trying to argue with you though, just discussing it. MAybe its more to do with melee druids just lacking the offensive abilitys of a zon (however as they have a much bigger hp buib, it seems fair but thats maybe just me.)

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