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 Post subject: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:19 am 
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Some people have been expressing some concerns about Oak Sage, here are the two relevant changes:
Quote:
Oak gives 25% hitpoints more per level and 5% hitpoints bonus per level (decreased to 3% per level)
Shapeshifting gives 25% base hitpoints bonus and 4% hitpoints per level (increased to 6% per lvl)


Oak Skill table (old value first, then new value):
Code:
Lvl  6         50%         40%       
Lvl 12         85%         58%
Lvl 30         170%        112%
Lvl 40         220%        142%

Battle Orders table:
Code:
Lvl 6          30%       
Lvl 12         48%
Lvl 17         63%
Lvl 30         102%
Lvl 40         132%

Feel free to make some arguments here why you feel this will cause problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:20 pm 
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With the shape shifting change it really hits Wind Druids hardest I think, fire druids can still cast from Bear. Maybe bump it to 4% to give Wind Druids some advantage over shifters because most fire druids don't bother maxing oak or lycan. 4% would give you 185% at level 40. Which is still hurting Wind Druids more than any other build.

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Last edited by LockDown on Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:43 pm 

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I think it's fine. People always compare oak and BO the thing is oak is still slightly better and at least oak can act as a tank at times which is a nice bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Windy druids have 0 def boosts, close/mid range skills, hard time getting %pdr (skulls in shield maybe). With maxed oak my newly made tornado druid has 5.5k(moonstones rubies in head, diamonds in armor, 88lvl) hp and he's being destroyed by archers/rats, oak is 36%lvl that's 200%. With your suggestions he will have 4.5. That sux.

For places like LoS you need strong life buffs - and I mean it - my 14k fire druid without bo got hit for 11k from assassin's psychic hammer. Firedruid don't need armageddon for her and attack with counterless firestrom (easy kill) while windy has arctic blast - in my build skipped as it's not a synergy to tornados - and will end with +- 7k hp at most.

Now to contrast that. Fire druids can run in bearform, that will not affect them at all - take 2% from oak, give 2% to lycan, meh. Some numbers
Base hp 2821 (that's 469 vita + some hp charms)
Bear form - 7719 (1 lycan + 1 bear 197% inc)
Oak only(48lvl, 260%) 9285
Oak + bear - 14182
Bear form 660% def which grants me 22192 def while Windy druid has 2900
That's with end game gear, 5 shards, heart, anni, soul of the dead.
I still use many juvs on boss fights - past a4, can kill anything no prob solo in a1-a3 unless FI.
I feel like windy druids will soon be gone from ladderboars - first amp nerfed, now their hp.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:14 pm 
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this should help the melee class.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:12 pm 
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It punishes builds that don't deserve to be punished, and have already taken too much punishment.

This Oak nerf will ONLY effect melee and close-range casters, who have already had their defensive options torn to shreds (Close-range casters having the worst of it). Otherwise, the loss of life is completely insignificant to builds who don't have to take the full brunt of a boss. (As they can get away with extremely low bulbs)

Close-range casters already got hit extremely hard the first patch with strength being cut, DR being murdered on everything but armor, and absorbs being reduced. You can no longer really have strong set-up gear to bolster your defenses as you have to piece together Absorbs or DR 5% at a time. Add in the fact that the strength changes (and especially the -req% changes) completely KILLED versatility in gearing, you have a headache trying to gear a close-range caster.

You used to be able to roll with different set-ups for different bosses, but now good luck getting that 184 for Ward on a build that only needs 104 strength 80% of the time. Sacrificing 80 hard points in vitality just isn't worth it for the builds, especially because they're not that tanky to begin with.

Builds like Windy Druids, WC Barbs, Ele-Zealers, Frost Nova Sorc, and others are already not that amazing of builds. The cut of life on top of their defensive options being limited will hurt these sub-par builds more than anything else. Melee can shrug it off, and long-range characters are unaffected, but you're proposing to nerf a set of builds that have already been hit extremely hard this last patch.

This is all despite the fact that Oak should be significantly stronger than BO. You can gear BO to last for 11+ minutes, which is more than enough for pretty much any situation, and allows you to have that life buff active without a real Barbarian in your party.
Bringing Oak down to ~BO's life increase is pathetic for a skill that:
A) Can die (and kill your party with it)
B) Must require an active player to have.
C) Has a limited range that must be obeyed.
D) Only provides a %Life Increase, not Mana as well.


But mainly the biggest issue I have with the nerf is that it kicks a section of builds when they've already been knocked onto the ground and mugged of their survivability.
And I'm not talking about building 100% damage on a close-range caster and complaining about being knocked around. Even when built very balanced (~Half & Half defense/damage), close-range casters got hit harder than ANY other build with the defensive nerfs. The nerf just isn't warranted.
It's not going to hurt melee all that much (except for LoS, where you actually need your ridiculous life bulb) and it won't affect long-range casters much at all. Just one more blow to close-range casters.
It would be nice to know why you think it deserves nerfing and what the purpose of it is? (Besides a global reduction of life)

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
It would be nice to know why you think it deserves nerfing and what the purpose of it is? (Besides a global reduction of life)

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:18 pm 

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Abominae pretty much landed every point so I'm probably repeating what he said in different words but basically..


Nerfing oak would be a global issue. It's a vital skill for many builds to be effective in most areas in Hell. Low vita builds and Sorcs, Ele druids etc. will suffer drastically from such a big nerf. People won't play these builds because of survivability so it's an indirect bash to already fragile characters. Areas like LoS will be nearly impossible as well to tank.

Oak has is the most vital party skill in the entire game, even more so than Bo due to the higher life increase. It's impossible to nerf it without having an effect on most chars, including chars that tank.

As Zac said.. casters already suffer due to the stre nerf and have lower vita anyway. They don't reap the same benefits from Oak/Bo as they did in previous patches because before you get away with low stre. Now you have to adjust gear accordingly and invest a decent amount into stre. With abs nerfed etc. and meeting the stre req It's even harder to get block. That was something casters could afford to do previously due to access to strength. They are over all significantly weaker now than what they use to be. Nerfing Oak would almost be like a final blow to their playability.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:01 am 

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Just like steel mentioned, Abominae really summed it up best. Ill just try to add my 2cents from an avid and almost sole Wind Druid player.

I played my first, and by far most played character in HU as a Wind Druid (Mrs.Garrison, lvl 100 who I currently play with all the time still. SS can be seen in the character screen shot section).

Even with oak the way it is, my life hovers around the same as our parties psn zon/ necro (11k or so), and getting maxed resis on him is a bit of a pain, one that oak helped me to balance out because I could sacrifice some life in equipment for more res/abs.

I also realize that because he was my first character, he is far from optimal stat wise. I could probably get roughly 20 or so more points into vita.


Speaking strictly from a Windy perspective, a nerf to oak will affect the survivability of the Druid. Fire Druids do get past this by the bump in SS life that is purposed.


Nothing really stat wise to post up (those arguments are really better coming from a number cruncher like steel or abominae), but a vote to possibly not nerf oak as much or somehow provide another way to boost the life of a druid who does not SS (I guess only windys are the only non SS druid lol) should be looked at if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:46 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:59 pm
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Shapeshifting gives 25% base hitpoints bonus and 4% hitpoints per level (increased to 6% per lvl)


Oak Skill table (old value first, then new value):
Code:
Lvl 40         220%        142%

Battle Orders table:
Code:

Lvl 40         132%

Feel free to make some arguments here why you feel this will cause problems.


From melee drood p.o.v: make oak unkillable/un-targetable and you have a deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:19 am 
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ok - thanks for the feedback. It wasn't anything that I hadn't already considered, but it is good to be thorough. In general, I am very aware of what the changes I am considering will do to the various builds so you don't have to repeat that back to me.

Quote:
Even with oak the way it is, my life hovers around the same as our parties psn zon/ necro (11k or so), and getting maxed resis on him is a bit of a pain, one that oak helped me to balance out because I could sacrifice some life in equipment for more res/abs.

This is a decent enough explanation of why the adjustment is appropriate. Here is the screenshot:

Image

I ballpark a character like this to have around 3000 base life so a lvl40 oak (220%) sets them at just about 10,000 life. My adjustment will put him at closer to 7500 (142%). Alternatively for a player who didn't put as much in to oak and has lvl30, it will adjust from 8,000 life to 6,000 life.

Hardly game breaking adjustments, simply things to make them a bit more vulnerable.

I also think that many of you fail to take in to account the impact that +All skills and +druid skills has had on the game compared to the older models of Grand Skill Charms. It would have been notably more difficult for druids to hit the higher oak levels in the old model, whereas now it is trivial. This has resulted in an overall boost in Oak Sage throughout the game that is being compensated for in this balance patch.

Many of you commented on Abominae's post which is polite, well written and clearly the work of someone who understands the game. That is nice, but not at all useful or compelling to me. I too understand the game, so it is simply pointing out things that I already know. Clearly this reduction in oak is designed to increase the vulnerability of caster based classes, so pointing out to me that you disagree with it because it is going to increase the vulnerability of caster based classes is a no-win argument. That is like telling an oil company that they shouldn't raise oil prices because that will make the company big profits. A better argument would have been numerically pointing out that the adjustment was going too far - something I simply don't believe to be the case. If you do plan to tell them that they shouldn't be making heavy profits, you had better be well prepared to say something other than "you shouldn't be making such profits".

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:35 am 
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Quote:
Hardly game breaking adjustments, simply things to make them a bit more vulnerable.
Bye Bye windy druids. This is already set in motion so any commenting has no point yet at least adjust hp gain per vita on druids. Not everyone use lycan and have bo. 2.2k hp without gc charms - mostly +1min gc drops, so need some twinking to get 45+hp charms - and 100% oak will kill this build. Mind my words, my windy druid now 94lvl on bloody foothils(cool location, 2jahs and cham in 2 runs) got hit for 4k from eldritch. Not everyone goes valor/arctic blast too.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:43 am 
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Steel wrote:
Not everyone use lycan and have bo. 2.2k hp without gc charms - mostly +1min gc drops, so need some twinking to get 45+hp charms - and 100% oak will kill this build. Mind my words, my windy druid now 94lvl on bloody foothils(cool location, 2jahs and cham in 2 runs) got hit for 4k from eldritch. Not everyone goes valor/arctic blast too.

Your character deserves to fail if it is a windy druid with 2.2k hp running through Hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:15 am 
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my 99lvl druid with heart hp charms and almost all vita has 2821 base hp. Why 2.2 on not fully geared druid is a fail? Really, Oak makes this build works.
Now that windy with rubies and more hp charms has 6.5k hp, 2500 def. 40% nerf will hurt him, I don't want to spend most of my time hunting hp charms. Ironically you wanted to remove Skillers so ppl play the game and not hunt tundra for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:18 am 
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Steel wrote:
my 99lvl druid with heart hp charms and almost all vita has 2821 base hp. Why 2.2 on not fully geared druid is a fail? Really, Oak makes this build works.

of course it does. which is why I am not removing oak sage. Do you even read my posts or do you just complain when things get nerfed?

If you wrote your post poorly and say that your druid has 2.2k base life, then that is a character with closer to 6-8k life with oak sage running. Very different than saying you have 2.2k life.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:38 am 
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I'd say 4% oak if he needs to be lowered. 40% nerf is too much. And I don't complain to just complain. I'm sure you didn't play windy druids this season. Last season they could have 60% block, nice hurri, nice tornados and big bulb of hp. Now block is gone(enigma, sm boots), tornados without amp can hardly kill anything that moves/is a champion, hurricane needs tons of cold pierce/valor to be good and to get that you need to go rainbow facets over rubies. Now 40% hp nerf just because casters are too good. Kinda like necs when amp was nerfed so ppl would max it(noone does it btw) thus melee was removed for gameplay 6months now.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:42 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
ok - thanks for the feedback. It wasn't anything that I hadn't already considered, but it is good to be thorough. In general, I am very aware of what the changes I am considering will do to the various builds so you don't have to repeat that back to me.

Quote:
Even with oak the way it is, my life hovers around the same as our parties psn zon/ necro (11k or so), and getting maxed resis on him is a bit of a pain, one that oak helped me to balance out because I could sacrifice some life in equipment for more res/abs.

This is a decent enough explanation of why the adjustment is appropriate. Here is the screenshot:

Image

I ballpark a character like this to have around 3000 base life so a lvl40 oak (220%) sets them at just about 10,000 life. My adjustment will put him at closer to 7500 (142%). Alternatively for a player who didn't put as much in to oak and has lvl30, it will adjust from 8,000 life to 6,000 life.

Hardly game breaking adjustments, simply things to make them a bit more vulnerable.

I also think that many of you fail to take in to account the impact that +All skills and +druid skills has had on the game compared to the older models of Grand Skill Charms. It would have been notably more difficult for druids to hit the higher oak levels in the old model, whereas now it is trivial. This has resulted in an overall boost in Oak Sage throughout the game that is being compensated for in this balance patch.

Many of you commented on Abominae's post which is polite, well written and clearly the work of someone who understands the game. That is nice, but not at all useful or compelling to me. I too understand the game, so it is simply pointing out things that I already know. Clearly this reduction in oak is designed to increase the vulnerability of caster based classes, so pointing out to me that you disagree with it because it is going to increase the vulnerability of caster based classes is a no-win argument. That is like telling an oil company that they shouldn't raise oil prices because that will make the company big profits. A better argument would have been numerically pointing out that the adjustment was going too far - something I simply don't believe to be the case. If you do plan to tell them that they shouldn't be making heavy profits, you had better be well prepared to say something other than "you shouldn't be making such profits".


You don't understand the game because if you did you wouldn't be saying these things. What part are you missing? You only want to make him weaker because you're looking at his damage from a runeword you created in the first place. Your nerfing hurricane and you've fixed the Runeword that you initially created. Now you want to nerf caster life on top of that?

Increase vulnerability of caster based classes? You didn't do that by reducing stre available? You didn't do that by lowering ABS all around the entire game? How much more vulnerability do you want? Seriously, just listen to yourself for a second. Your not making caster classes vulnerable Blue. Your turning them from still usable to garbage. Hurricane didn't even need to be nerfed. You only nerfed it because of that screenshot, it's obvious now. :roll: But if you could put two and two together then you'd realize that damage is only significant because of YOUR Valor.

Your inept understanding of the game forces you to believe that you need some magical numbers to convince otherwise of your impaired and failed logic. But you say you understand.. so I'm waiting for you to tell us. What else comes along with this Oak nerf Blue. Who else is affected, and how so? Can you explain to the community? I don't think you can.

I guess it means nothing to blue that 99% of us stating the Oak nerf is a pointless idea isn't convincing enough for him. The 99% of us who have played this game far longer, understand it far better and accomplished much more.

We've layed it out for you. Your going to cause a global NERF on every character. Your going to make LoS harder, Baal, and just about every area in the game. Not only does that caster Druid have to adjust to the Oak nerf but so does every OTHER character.

By the way. Your talking about +5 skills. Anni, LoS and Samhain have always existed. +25% Oak has changed the entire game?! Really blue? Just listen to yourself.. your changes have not MADE any significant impact in the level of Oak. In the old model a higher Oak was possible with 6 skillers. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:04 am 

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Steel wrote:
I'd say 4% oak if he needs to be lowered. 40% nerf is too much. And I don't complain to just complain. I'm sure you didn't play windy druids this season. Last season they could have 60% block, nice hurri, nice tornados and big bulb of hp. Now block is gone(enigma, sm boots), tornados without amp can hardly kill anything that moves/is a champion, hurricane needs tons of cold pierce/valor to be good and to get that you need to go rainbow facets over rubies. Now 40% hp nerf just because casters are too good. Kinda like necs when amp was nerfed so ppl would max it(noone does it btw) thus melee was removed for gameplay 6months now.



Oak currently is 25% at 5% per level

At Lvl 40 it's 220%

With blues changes It would be

142%

That's a 78% nerf like he said in his post. But everything else in your post is right and I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:21 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I also think that many of you fail to take in to account the impact that +All skills and +druid skills has had on the game compared to the older models of Grand Skill Charms. It would have been notably more difficult for druids to hit the higher oak levels in the old model, whereas now it is trivial. This has resulted in an overall boost in Oak Sage throughout the game that is being compensated for in this balance patch.


You maybe get ~8 (at the very most) more Oak than you would've had last patch, and that's considering all 5 shards (which most won't have). This is also considering that you should be prebuffing with at least something, Eth-Evlish bow still being the best oak-prebuff (now tied w/ Heaven's Will + +2 Shield)

The majority of Druids don't use Souldrainers and don't benefit from the additional +all skills from it as Mother Natures are so good. Ravenlore actually lost an additional point of Oak Sage. The only real additional points in Oak that Druids got were from shards, +1 Belt, and an additional +2 from Templars (if your build uses it, physical Windy will not).

An extra +8 Oak is equivalent to ~40% Life Boost.
You're proposing to reduce a level 40 Oak (fairly low end-game) by ~80%. A level 50 Oak is reduced by ~100%.

That's 60% more off end-game Oak than last patch, or the equivalent of losing 12 points in the skill. If you haven't noticed, Life has actually been LOWER this patch than it has been last patch due to strength changes, so we can pretty much ignore the extra +8 skills (completely end-game) skills you get this patch. Meaning, you lose around the equivalent of 20 points in Oak.

This pretty much means, with your Oak model, come the update maxed Oak will be roughly equivalent to one point Oak now. That is a huge nerf, and one that only heavily affects a set of builds that DON'T need it.

Also, your screenshot comparison is a bit skewed if you're talking about the rest of the game. Additional base life on a Druid is huge because they only get 3 life per vita. Having an average Druid Heart (150 Life) is the equivalent to an extra 50 hard points in vitality. Considering Heart is available for maybe 1% of the game, you're not going to be rocking anywhere near the base life that completely geared Druid is rocking.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Many of you commented on Abominae's post which is polite, well written and clearly the work of someone who understands the game. That is nice, but not at all useful or compelling to me. I too understand the game, so it is simply pointing out things that I already know. Clearly this reduction in oak is designed to increase the vulnerability of caster based classes, so pointing out to me that you disagree with it because it is going to increase the vulnerability of caster based classes is a no-win argument. That is like telling an oil company that they shouldn't raise oil prices because that will make the company big profits. A better argument would have been numerically pointing out that the adjustment was going too far - something I simply don't believe to be the case. If you do plan to tell them that they shouldn't be making heavy profits, you had better be well prepared to say something other than "you shouldn't be making such profits".


You're missing the point entirely, one that I tried to make very clear. There are leagues of difference between the playstyle of a close-range caster and long-range caster. Grouping them together as one set of builds and nerfing them like that is a bad move, no matter the numbers.

This Oak nerf WILL NOT and I repeat WILL NOT affect long-range casters. You know, the set of builds that can deal damage from a screen away with the only repercussion being ranged counters? That's the set of builds you'd want to nerf survivability for, not casters that take a melee's brunt of the damage, except have to gear like a caster AND like a melee to do their job.


You can post numbers all day, but it doesn't change the fact that you're using a global nerf to TRY and nerf a set of builds. Except, you won't even be affecting that set of builds.
You'll be affecting already underpowered builds, that already struggle to survive, and have it no where as easy as long range casters. These are the majority of the builds that will be most affected by Oak changes, explain to me why they deserve a nerf:

Elemental Zealer (Fire/Lit/Cold/Magic)
Tornado Druid
Hurricane/Arctic Blast Druid
War Cry Barbarian
Frost Nova Sorceress
Phoenix Strike Assassin (or FoF/BoI/CoT based)
Poison Necromancer
Melee Venom Assassin
Blessed Hammer Paladin
Berserk Barbarians


These are all builds that must gear like a caster to have anything near respectable damage, yet have to have enough survivability to survive the full brunt of a bosses damage, which is vastly different than taking a few ranged counters like other caster builds.
Are any of these builds overpowered? Do any of them need to be toned down? To me, I'm actually looking at a list of some of the WORST builds in the game (Valor equipped Cold Druid aside), not including gimmick builds or current melee of course.

That list is what will suffer the most from the Oak nerf, as they also suffered the worst from the DR/Sorbs nerf and the strength nerf. If you want to nerf long-range caster's survivability, go for it, but don't hurt already crappy builds in the process.

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Last edited by Abominae on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am 

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Whoops didn't know of some of the +skills that were added but whatever point was close enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:02 pm 
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again - all stuff that I know.

Quote:
You can post numbers all day, but it doesn't change the fact that you're using a global nerf to TRY and nerf a set of builds. Except, you won't even be affecting that set of builds.

I am using a global nerf to globally nerf. The breadth and scope of the nerf is suited to the breadth and scope of the change I am seeking to accomplish.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:15 pm 
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Anyway. Where is logic behind this? I know that last patch was supposed to be a community patch and came with few(MAJOR) flaws. Now what is this? Your personal view how things should work in HU or? Did Soulmancer say "nerf hp so ppl will find mod harder" or what? Oak nerf will kill windy druids and leftovers of warcry/psn necs(they CAN'T hit shit now, honestly, I was all about poison abs but seeing how well built psn nec struggles to hit anything makes me sad and say "fuck poison abs")/other close combat builds. Won't affect anything besides them. I know you spent your time doing this so called fixing false-elite-view-on-HU that was represented by guys that already quit but this nerf, and let's face it this change from a huge list of changes only is controversial, is just stupid.
"again - all stuff that I know." You > we ofc.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:23 pm 

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So blue used a Oil analogy. Speaking of Oil.. doesn't Libya have something in common with Oil and doesn't Blue haven't something in common with Gaddafi? Your time is running out Mr. Blue. You still have not provided a single piece of evidence as to why Oak needs such a harsh nerf. The majority of this community disagrees with you. How long are you going to keep fighting the community Blue?

Again - not all stuff you know. Again - all stuff you say you know but have NOT the slightest clue about.

Now your "globally nerfing" but you specified in your post that you were targeting casters. Your just doing what you "FEEL" is best. You don't provide any reasonable evidence as to why casters need nerfed. You haven't even been to LoS so I can't go there. NO one here agrees with you. NO BODY. Find me one person who says they agree with you. Do you think we find any credibility in anything you say? You have no argument, no facts, no logical evidence behind your conclusion that oaks need nerfed.

YOUR only piece of FACTUAL information is that +Skills are more accessible to Oak in which Abominae CLEARLY smashed that idea.

So you have nothing to argue with. You just say "Again I know' and then you revert your original reasoning and invent a new one. "I'm globally nerfing now."

I'm just trying to help you man don't take what I say wrong. You need to make your point or we still won't hear you.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:34 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I am using a global nerf to globally nerf. The breadth and scope of the nerf is suited to the breadth and scope of the change I am seeking to accomplish.


Could you let us know what the breadth and scope of the change you're trying to accomplish are? That could help us to provide more valuable and applicable feedback/opinions/complaints, rather than just waste time saying things you know ;)

I will gladly post some screen shots of my windy druid later... he is wearing:
Enigma
Wizzy
Kiras
HHG
Glooms
Treks
Maras
Mother Nature
rare dru rings

With his low str set up (I float around 100), I cannot wear any heavy tankish gear, so I rely on life to stay alive. If you're point of taking away my life to make me invest in more str to wear my tanky gear... which would result in my life being EVEN lower, that just seems like a silly paradox, or a really great way to nerf a build into the ground (and a really fun one at that). He feels fragile already as it is, with about 500 vit (no rubies, needed res/str jewels in kiras) and an inventory full of nothing but life charms.

Just trying to provide some personal feedback here. My barb wouldn't cry with an oak nerf, and my necro doesn't EVER plan to get hit in the first place so he wouldn't mind either. My druid on the other hand would cry himself to sleep every night :(. Even though it's a "global nerf", it most certainly affects some more than others.

I build my characters with purpose. Barb for this, zon for that, etc. This nerf will simply limit the number of builds that are applicable for running certain bosses (like my windy is supposed to be my Tobi / Moloch killer... maybe with his new low bulb he may not be able to); this will also force people to make the same builds as everyone else that WORK, which will be very boring and uninteresting.
Either that or you're just trying to 'encourage' people to play in bigger groups (which I'm all for!), but, with the population on these servers (especially HC) that doesn't seem feasible.

Once again, would love to know your stance here Blue, since it's hard to provide a counter point without knowing the original point :).

Cheers, and props for being proactive with the update.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Find me one person who says they agree with you. Do you think we find any credibility in anything you say? You have no argument, no facts, no logical evidence behind your conclusion that oaks need nerfed.
Obviously we are noobs who like easy mods that's why we do underdogs (as previously believed) chars barbs/fire druids/jab zons/chain sorcs...
/sarcasm
(if anyone wonders I started this ladder with fire druid because I like this char and with armg rw I found him to be little OP, so no, I'm not FOTM follower)


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:48 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
again - all stuff that I know.


If you already know, then why are you nerfing a set of builds that don't deserve a nerf? Hell, even melee don't deserve the additional survivability nerf, so you're easily nerfing ~50% of builds that don't need it.
If you already know this, why are you still intent on making what would be a bad change for the mod?

blue_myriddn wrote:
I am using a global nerf to globally nerf. The breadth and scope of the nerf is suited to the breadth and scope of the change I am seeking to accomplish.


But your global nerf doesn't affect every set of builds the same. It's an easy concept to understand, which is why I'm curious to why you don't seem to understand it.

It doesn't affect long range casters, which are the only real set of builds that deserve a survivability nerf, yet it heavily affects builds that don't deserve the nerf.

I simply don't understand the concept of nerfing already bad builds, while said nerf doesn't even affect those who deserve it. I'm not sure if you've played a close range caster much this patch, but really, they already got their shit rocked by DR/Absorbs/Str nerfs. A significant life decrease pretty much destroys what playability they have left.

What information do you have that actually justifies another serious nerf to close-range casters? If you can give me a real reason why that set of builds deserves another kick in the balls, I'll be all for Oak nerfs.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:19 pm 

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Lee wrote:
NO one here agrees with you. NO BODY. Find me one person who says they agree with you.


As a SC melee drood that dislikes ele drood builds, I'm kinda' happy for the un-oaked life buff coming from this change but I'm worried that I'll be spending more fight% just summoning the bugger than actually fighting the boss.

If oak is unkillable (a' la' BO) i'm 100% ok with the change. Alternatively a 10-25% base oak HP buff would cover the oak fragility issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Slappynuts wrote:
stuff

The reasoning is simple and is essentially the inverse of what everyone else is saying. A little less life will be a good thing for high dmg classes. Unlike other people in this thread, I don't forsee it being a game breaking adjustment and in fact view it as an improvement. So just take what everyone else is saying and switch it around.

I've run the numbers on the adjustment and it will have a modest, but not crippling impact on builds, which I believe I have already pointed out with regards to MrsGarrison. Characters that had around 10k ilfe will now have around 7.5k life, characters that were around 8k life will not have around 6.5k life. If someone wants to tell me why a 6.5k life caster character cannot succeed in Hell, certainly feel free - but mostly like you are just a pansy who isn't looking for a really challenging mod (may I suggest you try this game instead), or should just party up with people when trying to get through Hell.

Seriously - some of you are behaving as though I am removing Oak all together.

If everyone just wants to complain about adjustments, I will return to not responding and just going about my merry way of producing a patch. Wastes too much time and saps me of any desire to do any work to drudge through this sort of nonsense. I figure this will be my last post on the topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:00 pm 
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hex wrote:
I'm worried that I'll be spending more fight% just summoning the bugger than actually fighting the boss.

There is no adjustment in the actual HP of the sage itself, just how much %life it provides to players.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Quote:
(may I suggest you try this game instead)
Vanilla so far is the hardest "mod" to melee that came. Oak dies under 1 sec, melee with 100% amp sux, only viable builds are sorcs/hdins/lfury zons/summ necs/smiters with 70% CB. HU is somehow going that way because oak nerf will only hit some chars. FUI meteo sorc can tele to hell guardian and kill him NP if he's not immune, no oak, self bo. Since this whole community patch I have seen noone reporting this as issue to "balance" yet you're trying to push team to go more priv games/poison builds.
I think I know what you are trying to achive:
1) Nerf oak, casters will lose safety, casters will try to change their gear, casters will lose some dmg for survivability. YEAH
2) (that what will happen) Nerf oak, windy druids will be gone, everyone will be shapeshifters with 6%lycan, builds that actually depended on oak will be gone, more psn chars/singlespawning games/priv games/shitstorm on forums.
3)SEE how melee nerf turned off. Noone need amp/melee...


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:43 pm 
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I actually reread my whole post to verify the fact that I indeed did not say "stuff" once in my post lol. Thanks for responding, as belittling as your responses can seem sometimes.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Feel free to make some arguments here why you feel this will cause problems.


blue_myriddn wrote:
If everyone just wants to complain about adjustments, I will return to not responding and just going about my merry way of producing a patch. Wastes too much time and saps me of any desire to do any work to drudge through this sort of nonsense.


ask and thou shalt receive/be careful what you wish for/etc :P. Other than the oak nerf and 6 points per pali lvl I think everyone has accepted this patch with open arms. Of course, the complaints will still overwhelm the thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:15 pm 
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An argument isn't the same as a complaint.

I have yet to hear a single argument for why this is a bad idea, other than "I think so and I really know how to play this game, so you should listen to me." I don't traffic in authoritative arguments, only factual arguments.

Sorry for saying stuff, I mostly wanted to make it clear I was responding to you, not to be belittling. I recognize your concerns, have considered them and in the end simply have come to a different conclusion.

It seems that people seem to be focusing on understanding, without realizing that I *do* understand, I simply disagree. There is a very significant difference there. I think that a lot of people believe their opinions to be great and are baffled when someone else doesn't agree, so they conclude that the other person must simply not understand them. That is a foolish position to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:28 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Slappynuts wrote:
stuff

The reasoning is simple and is essentially the inverse of what everyone else is saying. A little less life will be a good thing for high dmg classes. Unlike other people in this thread, I don't forsee it being a game breaking adjustment and in fact view it as an improvement. So just take what everyone else is saying and switch it around.

I've run the numbers on the adjustment and it will have a modest, but not crippling impact on builds, which I believe I have already pointed out with regards to MrsGarrison. Characters that had around 10k ilfe will now have around 7.5k life, characters that were around 8k life will not have around 6.5k life. If someone wants to tell me why a 6.5k life caster character cannot succeed in Hell, certainly feel free - but mostly like you are just a pansy who isn't looking for a really challenging mod (may I suggest you try this game instead), or should just party up with people when trying to get through Hell.

Seriously - some of you are behaving as though I am removing Oak all together.

If everyone just wants to complain about adjustments, I will return to not responding and just going about my merry way of producing a patch. Wastes too much time and saps me of any desire to do any work to drudge through this sort of nonsense. I figure this will be my last post on the topic.


I know it's a lot to ask for an individual to see the stupidity in the stupidity of his stupidity. It's not like I have high expectations here.

First of all, Hurricane can be casted in Bearform. All that "caster" will do is max Lycan and 1 pt Oak thus he has the same he had previously. GOOD JOB BLUE! ! The same goes for Firestorm/Armageddon. Way to NERF their life! LOL. Maybe now you see the "stupidity" in your stupidity? You only nerfed the survivability of a Windy druid who can't even hardly kill trash anymore due to your amp nerf. GOOD JOB X2 BLUE! Armageddon/Hurricane druids remain untouched.

Now 99% of the druid builds YOU see are going to be LYCAN based. Good job BLUE! "Party up with people to get through hell". Well you see.. people won't have Oak anymore due to your idiotic changes. Your demoting parties while trying to promote them? Way to be a hypocrite! GOOD JOB BLUE!

Why can't a 6.5k life caster succeed in Hell? I don't know Blue, have you ever played one? Have you ever played any Build that Abominae has mentioned in his post. YOU HAVEN'T! So how would you know ANYTHING about the builds? Have you even successfully built one char or accomplished anything worth mentioning? Guardian status? LoS? Level 100? Samhain? Anything on your belt? So where does all your "ALL MIGHTY" game knowledge come from. I'm curious. Maybe you have an alter ego who whispers in your ear when in doubt. Would anyone be surprised?

Here's the perfect analogy to describe you blue. Let's say this really nerdy kid walks onto a NBA basketball court and he starts telling Kobe Bryant that he shouldn't take shots like he does. He needs to adjust the way he shoots. He shouldn't lay up as he does. He has to adjust that. Then Kobe says "Why do I need to adjust what I'm doing?" And he says "Trust me, I did the math. I can show you numbers. Can you prove me wrong? I got numbers! WHERES YOUR NUMBERS KOBE?!?!" Doesn't that sound familiar?

You got nothing on your belt man and your trying to tell us that "we are pansys" and that 6.5k life is okay in hell for a caster in melee range? Who are you again? Go tell Kobe Bryant you got numbers for him.

People are getting sick and tired of your attitude. People have already quit this mod. They left because of your CHANGES. Many of those people won't come back. There is still a lot left but now more and more are realizing what a fraud you are. You don't work with the community on over 85% of the changes you make. You ALWAYS disagree with the community anytime a majority goes against you. YOU never have reasonable logic or strong supporting evidence/opinions. No one is supporting you but a very few. Eventually the community will come together against you and seek your removal but you don't care. Your going to be the same Ol Blue till that day comes but you keep doing it and eventually it will come. It always does. Instead of trying to work the community you start to work against it to the best of your ability and even when the best players here are telling you your wrong and proving you wrong on every level you still cease to accept the truth.

And yes you "understand" and you "disagree" but what we fail to "understand" is how you disagree and by what basis. Wait.. there is no basis. Wake up and smell the coffee Blue before someone splashes it on your face and then it's too late.
You won't be modding anymore. Just speaking the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:02 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
An argument isn't the same as a complaint.

Hope my original post didn't sound like a complaint, just a simple fact - that my wind druid will be hurt and my other characters untarnished.

blue_myriddn wrote:
I have yet to hear a single argument for why this is a bad idea, other than "I think so and I really know how to play this game, so you should listen to me." I don't traffic in authoritative arguments, only factual arguments.

Not sure what you're looking for from the casual player here like myself. I'm not Steel or Purerage and won't try to speak on that level, but every person with a wind druid shares my sentiments on this topic, so does that make it my opinion, or fact? What is your "factual argument" to the nerf? I'll say it again- this is only hurting close ranged casters, not anyone else. Abominae has explained the reasons here better than I can, so I won't repeat.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Sorry for saying stuff, I mostly wanted to make it clear I was responding to you, not to be belittling. I recognize your concerns, have considered them and in the end simply have come to a different conclusion.

np thought it was funny :). I only get mad about d2 shit if I die with a lvl 90 ><

If these changes would have came 2 weeks ago I wouldn't have cared at all, but I JUUUUST made my windy and geared him up and just have to finish his quests, etc and am just trying to figure out how to make him tank better, then this :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Quote:
I have yet to hear a single argument for why this is a bad idea
I HAVE YET TO HEAR A SINGLE ARGUMENT FOR WHY THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.

It's like fucking fighting with a wall. Dude that doesn't play this play are trying to convince us we're wrong about oak or stuff. Total bullshit. Good luck with HU as I'm offline if this bullshit comes off.
Total ignorant you're Blue....


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:35 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
Not sure what you're looking for from the casual player here like myself.

Nothing really. I posted this as a quick check against my personal testing, my post on A3 blizzard mercs bore nice fruit - so perhaps this one would have as well. Turns out it didn't, and that is ok. If I hadn't posted I wouldn't have ever known.

Over the past 6 months, I have been reviewing and listening to information from casual players. I ask questions in game and listen carefully to the responses that I hear - not just what they say, but how consistent it is with how they end up playing. Reading between the lines and listening critically. I then take that information and compile it globally to all the skills and builds over a few weeks, reviewing and tweaking it based on how things look with regard to items and other builds.

So if you want to think of it another way, I've already been listening to what you and other casual players have been saying for quite a while now, so you don't have to worry about chiming in now.1

I don't expect many people to go to that length or depth in the analysis - I know most people are here to play. This is something I have been doing for Diablo for years now and something I have done professional for other games for years as well, so it can be a relaxing and engaging side project for me.

I am sure that you will find fun ways to make this build work. I know you play HC, so it will be significantly more challenging for you to deal with the survivability issues - but since you have chosen to play HC rather than softie that should be something that you should expect. As a reminder, this mod is balanced around Softie and not HC, so some HC only concerns are taken with a grain of salt in the large scheme of things. Likewise, comments that "everyone" feels one way or the other just because 3 or 4 people post on a forum are hardly reality. There are lots of players on the realm and not all post on the forums.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Steel wrote:
I HAVE YET TO HEAR A SINGLE ARGUMENT FOR WHY THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.

It is a good idea because I think it will weaken builds that I believe need to be diminished in power.
It is a bad idea because you think it will weaken builds that you believe do not need to be diminished in power.

That is the crux of the "arguments", neither of which are arguments - just opinions. I am basing mine off of what I have observed and played just as you are basing yours off of what you have observed and played. When it comes right down to it, I am going to go with what I believe in just the same way that you would if you were in my shoes.

Have a look at it from my angle for a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Quote:
Likewise, comments that "everyone" feels one way or the other just because 3 or 4 people post on a forum are hardly reality. There are lots of players on the realm and not all post on the forums.
That's how skillers were removed. That's the way how valor/armg is being reduced - you know results of the pool "LEAVE IT BE" but you went for a less voted option - yet you're trying to marginalize some ppl opinion over your own. For fuck sack. Who gave you that right? You're not HU pros. Is melee nerf signed by your name didn't teach you anything?


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:46 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Steel wrote:
I HAVE YET TO HEAR A SINGLE ARGUMENT FOR WHY THIS IS A GOOD IDEA.

It is a good idea because I think it will weaken builds that I believe need to be diminished in power.
It is a bad idea because you think it will weaken builds that you believe do not need to be diminished in power.

That is the crux of the "arguments", neither of which are arguments - just opinions. I am basing mine off of what I have observed and played just as you are basing yours off of what you have observed and played. When it comes right down to it, I am going to go with what I believe in just the same way that you would if you were in my shoes.

Have a look at it from my angle for a bit.


Facts. Post some numbers from your builds or builds you have spoken to. Give us real numbers about druids/war cry barbs near 60-70lvl with 1lvl and maxed oak as you already said that 2.2k base hp druid is a fail(or you were that dumb to think that any char with maxed oak can have less than 5k hp while my dex zon 50 vita has 1.5k hp no bo/no oak... well you know the best)
BTW. It's sad. Many guys are saying leave oak be and you're going to nerf it anyway. Then you'd have said you were voluntering. Then bitch that ppl didn't test your work. Then just simple say you don't play D2 as you don't have time. HUH
Quote:
It is a good idea because I think it will weaken builds that I believe need to be diminished in power.
It is a bad idea because you think it will weaken builds that you believe do not need to be diminished in power.
I hope your boss will come to you and he will say he's cutting your salary and ask you why do you think it's a bad idea not to do this. I really do.


Last edited by Steel on Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:52 pm 
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oh - incidentally, if it makes people feel better this thread has convinced me to make a Windy Druid as my first post-patch character. I always like playing the underdogs.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Your 94lvl barb leeched baal anyway. Your windy dru will leech norm andy.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:53 pm 

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I have but one question. When you were asking those questions both in game and looking at your math, did you ever consider the various stages of the builds or just end game ones? I have seen post after post about the end game, but it seems to me like this nerf is going to most affect the progression towards end game. A 220% increase of 2.2k base life is very different from much less life. As it is, in hell and mostly in NM, I see most people single spawn bosses for fear of having too many counters or them having too much life with 3-4 people in the game. Or even worse, I've seen a lot of people come into other games to ask people to come help them kill an act boss because they can't.
When someone does finally get to the end game, I feel they should be able to kill andy thru Diablo with few problems. Those areas shouldn't be a challenge for them because that isn't where they can gain experience. I've played 2 chars now almost to 99 (one is 97 and one is 92) and with neither of them did I really ever feel that the areas are easy. If I am very cautious, then most of the time, I don't die and manage to make it through most areas.
As well, could we just hear the reason why you want to do a global nerf? I mean, yes, MrsGarrison is a really nice druid, but most people aren't rich enough to be geared like that, nor have the full +skills.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:54 pm 

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have you considered these effect for the hc players? I mean many ppl die all the time almost everywhere as far as I've seen, to not even speak of LoS where ppl die in less than a second.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:55 pm 
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The reason I play HC is to increase the challenge, yes. I take all of the mentioning of the HC/SC difference out what-so-ever from my posts because I know they'll be discarded :).

BUT, this change (I'd be happy to test it out on SP beforehand) very well may turn my druid from:
Pimped out merc tanks while I rip down the amped boss (taking a few hits here and there + counters, and using a several juvs). Tele-ing around to keep merc alive.. etc. Very fun intense ACTIVE boss battles.
to
Oak bitch stands in corner and spam wolves. Drinks a couple mana potions. Clears tundra

Which is the whole basis for my argument of how this change negates this build from being useful outside of oak bitch/spam wolves. I have my necro for that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Verb wrote:
have you considered these effect for the hc players? I mean many ppl die all the time almost everywhere as far as I've seen, to not even speak of LoS where ppl die in less than a second.


they wont balance HU for HC, only SC

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Darwins_Bane wrote:
I have but one question. When you were asking those questions both in game and looking at your math, did you ever consider the various stages of the builds or just end game ones?

Good question.

Most of my considerations are for throughout the game and not just end game, although I feel that most of the forum community tends to focus on end game. This is a big reason why most of my changes are on the final skill tiers and on per lvl skill changes. I recognize that building up to that powerhouse build can be a challenge and kept that in mind when applying reductions.

Darwins_Bane wrote:
As well, could we just hear the reason why you want to do a global nerf?

Reduction in caster based classes ability to absorb damage.

Verb wrote:
have you considered these effect for the hc players? I mean many ppl die all the time almost everywhere as far as I've seen, to not even speak of LoS where ppl die in less than a second.

yes. HC is going to be a challenge. I don't bother too much with LOS - folks should go there at their own risk and in search of an extremely difficult challenge. If it ever gets to the point where LOS hearts are no longer to be found on the realm, then perhaps I will give some consideration to it, but for now it remains largely ignored in my balance calculations.

SlappyNuts wrote:
BUT, this change (I'd be happy to test it out on SP beforehand) very well may turn my druid from:
Pimped out merc tanks while I rip down the amped boss (taking a few hits here and there + counters, and using a several juvs). Tele-ing around to keep merc alive.. etc. Very fun intense ACTIVE boss battles.

Sure - test'r out. My view is that you will have the ABILITY to make the character play like that. We are talking about a 1.5k-2.5k life reduction at most, your character SHOULD still weigh in at over 5k life without a problem. So that allows you the ability to take a few hits here and there without being insta-shotted.

Can you be insta-crushed with a few well delivered blows from a boss? Well sure - but that's where the thrill comes in and most every build has to face that reality.

Some people will play the game pansy mode and just oak bitch/spam wolves - but that's their problem and not mine. I simply provide the water, the horse can choose to drink it or sit in the corner and make horseshit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:04 pm 

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But the only caster I know of that can take hits is ES sorc....pretty much any other caster I see dies in very short order if they take any hits...why would we want them to take even less hits? Also, I haven't personally played a druid, but I have seen many around. All of them die very easily unless they are lvl 95+. Why do they need more nerfing?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:08 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
Verb wrote:
have you considered these effect for the hc players? I mean many ppl die all the time almost everywhere as far as I've seen, to not even speak of LoS where ppl die in less than a second.


they wont balance HU for HC, only SC
No "they", just "he" or "blue" Only other ideas he's willing to set in motions are the one he fails to mod for himself, sad but true. The guy is stubborn.

BTW. I don't care as you nerf oak as I have everything I want, I can rush all my chars to hell in a hour, I can gear them as I want, I can run them to los and kill even nec as I like. YET I'm battling you, Blue, because I know that average noob that starts his story with HU will fail and it will be the big time. You're going to push guys to GRID. You were the one that wanted to remove GRID from HU. You're the mad man, you know shit about this game. Previous patch signed by your name that nerfed melee and boosted casters beyond any repairs is a living proof what you know nothing about this game. No personal offense


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I'm gonna suggest that we all meet in the middle as I mentioned earlier and reduce it to 4% per level instead of the 3% that is proposed. Both sides will still feel a bit bitter but I'm sure it will help than over nerfing and destroying two builds the same way we killed melee.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Well, 4% is good. But since it's my name's day I'm willing to troll since early morning(well work early fuck it)


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:33 pm 

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I dont understand, why will you completly disregarding hc?! why basicly remove the chance for us to try the hardest bosses in the game?!
Yes we want a challange by playing hc but you dont have to make it fucking impossible for us to do the harder bosses!
I understand you want to make it harder for some of the builds that have it slightly easyer but they are playing sc for a reason. Sc is already easy just by being able to die as many times as you want. Why dont you just tell ppl to go hc if they want a challange instead of going against the entire community and nerf something that will affect all the melee builds more then it will affect the caster builds(wich are still very op).

Also you ask us to give you facts why nerfing this is bad, yet the only reason you say is why you do this is because you feel that is would be good....THAT is not a fact, so why dont YOU give us facts and then we can disprove them...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Verb wrote:
I dont understand, why will you completly disregarding hc?.

I believe you misread my post. I don't disregard HC.

I disregard Land of Shadows. If you want to go there on HC, by all means head on over and have a ball. Don't come crying to me though if you lose your character. That place is bad news. The LOS Necro has always been regarded as a super nasty bugger and his buddies are rough as well.. Oak sages wink out of existence in the flash of an eye in LOS, so this particular topic is relatively unimportant in the LOS discussions.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:43 pm 
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.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:59 pm 

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okey I understand what you mean now. But have you played hc? its not really a walk in the park.
I dont really know how good you are at this game or how much you play, but I have to ask you...do you die a lot when you play on sc? cus I've only played a little sc and ppl die all the time, all over the place. Can you consider how carefull ppl play on hc then to survive? If you nerf oak this much, it'll will impact the hc players A LOT more then any of the sc players.
The only thing that will happen on sc is that less ppl will play the most affected builds(the ones abominae wrote). No one will build their chars any differently or anything at all.
On hc everyone that is relying on oak and bo to survive will have to play even more carefully then they're already are. And melee dps builds will be even more useless then now because of the loss of hp you wont be able to stand long enough infront of a boss and dps to do any decent damage.

Considering there already are ppl going like 50 vit and rest in dex/str on zons right now, you think that will change because of the loss of a little hp from oak? No one does a build like that on hc(except pious str barb) and we're gona suffer the most from this nerf anyway.
Please try to see this from our point of view. HC will suffer more then sc.

EDIT: okey I may have exaggerated about melee gona suck balls in hc with the oak nerf but it will definetly be a lot more dangerous for the less geared ppl.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:08 pm 
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Verb wrote:
okey I understand what you mean now. But have you played hc? its not really a walk in the park.
I dont really know how good you are at this game or how much you play, but I have to ask you...do you die a lot when you play on sc?

Yes. I used to play HC exclusively when I first played this mod, now I take it a little more relaxed and go softie.
I die very, very rarely because I still tend to play with HC habits. I always keep a clear exit route, well filled orb, stock up on potions, carefully choose my gear before playing and kill most everything on the screen rather than running head first in to things. I also tend to level my merc and keep him/her with me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:10 pm 

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okey I'm glad to hear that, but dont you agree that a oak nerf will affect hc a lot more then the sc players?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Quote:
okey I understand what you mean now. But have you played hc? its not really a walk in the park.
I did last ladder and I didn't like much of it. 0 ppl, 0 fun. You play games for fun. I'd rather play final fantasy vii with hardcore mode, grind str/spirit sources in gelnika than wait for a just one guy that say "hey, let's kill norm bloodraven". Sorry, it sux ass. HC on actual rules is like playing game with trainers. "We play HC so we can lose everything but we have backup of oak and BO always". Want HC, go other network -> LAN. I admire PureRage that actually have played HC without bo/oak bots.
BTW. anyone interested in FF7 moding go qhimm.com / forums. fun !


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Thought I would chime in here to say. What about HoW and SoB? both are 1 point wonders and if a druid don't max oak, he is considered a complete noob. Maybe reducing it's effect will help with this and we may see more folks choosing another spirit. Rather than "who has the highest oak? Ok I'll run 1 point SoB" garbage that has plagued oak sage since it was invented.

People forget that HoW also gives a very nice party def boost + ar + damage The def boost alone can change your chance to be hit on a caster class from ~80 to ~30

I made a HoW fury druid a while ago and without trying had well over 100k def by mid nm with only a 5% chance to be hit. People keep going on about ele damage being a killer but in reality, ele damage is completely crap from the majority of enemys (diablo included as it is all damage over time). The only reason flamewave and lightning hose hurt so much is because they have a physical component being applied every frame too. Luckily, PDR and MDR are easy to find and make all DoT skills a complete joke. Blizzard is the exception to this rule (thank god theres one elemental spell that hurts in the game).

Hp is the LAST LINE OF DEFENCE, pay attention to the first 6 lines of defence (def, res, dr%, PDR/MDR, Sorb% and block (in no perticular order) Also DEA if a zon and clawblock if a sin) and you won't take much damage anyway. Also, press R to switch to walk ffs.

Casters don't need much hp when they can keep 90% of mobs in hit recovery (another line of effective defence)

Slow is never utilised by people either. Try making a slowing setup and having someone apply it every 20 secs or so in a boss fight. I wouldn't recomend it on all bosses though as it makes the game extremely boring.

I'd be fine with 3% or 4%, people act like ~40% hp diff is a huge amount when you can get the same bonus by using a few rubies in sockets. (Oh yeh, everyone wants those sockets for facets for MOAR DMGZ!!!)

The only class I do have concerns about is the melee assassin and maybe the melee zon (though I found melee zon to be pretty much fine with level 25-28 bo only). The assassin don't have the range of a zon and the ability to attack from behind a decoy for imba tankage too.
Paladins get an extra 100 vita so they won't feel any burn from this. I wouldn't mind seeing cobra strike changed slightly to a charge up with some minor hp% buff capping at 60% or so along with some lifesteal (not as high as it's current form obviously.)

TL;DR. lets all just relax a little and try it out. We may even get druids maxing other spirits for once instead of only on "Novelty" builds.

Ps @ Steel. Modding FF7? How can one mod, that which is perfection???

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Don't count on that 100 extra vita for long. I'm gonna post my pally @ 99 and make people weep and wonder why we did that in the first place.

Also if you don't play softcore you miss things that make you lol for days. Such as 7 players getting wiped by Wave 2 of Baal or Druids re-casting oak with 1 life left.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:19 pm 
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My old pally was only 500 shy of 40k hp with party buffs (14k alone with no bo or oak). with less than perf charms. That was why i was concerned with removing skillers (allows more charm space for casters to get very high hp).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:56 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
My old pally was only 500 shy of 40k hp with party buffs (14k alone with no bo or oak). with less than perf charms. That was why i was concerned with removing skillers (allows more charm space for casters to get very high hp).


If I do it right he'll be right at 11.5k base without rubies while having max block and having 185 strength for his sword.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Have seen nothing in this thread justifying why close-range casters deserve a defensive nerf. Most likely because there is absolutely no reason they do.

I suppose I'll have to take Blue's authoritative argument of "Because I think so" , though I highly doubt you've played a balanced, close-range caster this patch and understand anything of their survivability issues now.


PureRage-DoD wrote:
Hp is the LAST LINE OF DEFENCE, pay attention to the first 6 lines of defence (def, res, dr%, PDR/MDR, Sorb% and block (in no perticular order) Also DEA if a zon and clawblock if a sin) and you won't take much damage anyway. Also, press R to switch to walk ffs.


This is exactly why close-range casters don't need their life cut anymore.

1) Their defense has been cut by at least 500 base (which is a large amount), if not more for certain builds.
2) Resists, which actually matter for a close-range caster, have already been cut. This wouldn't be an issue, except dexterity has been cut, so gearing for block AND resistance is a nightmare.
3) DR% is basically non-existent on any close-range caster gear outside of 5% from Enigma or using Ber runes
4) PDR/MDR actually didn't get nerfed, but it requires dedicating 4+ sockets to it to have a real notable difference. With the lovely stat changes, most close-range classes crave Dexterity & Strength, let alone having space for facets or the luxury of stacking Diamonds (or Rubies for that matter)
5) Absorbs are again basically non-existent on any close-range caster unless you want to spend an extra 80 points in strength for a now pretty sub-par shield. Old Ward might have been worth it, but with the strength changes, you're barely scraping enough base life to get by.
6) Block got brutalized by Soulmancer's set being murdered, Enigma being murdered, and Anni getting nerf, as well as a few other dexterity nerfs. Cap that with the resist nerf, it gets harder and harder to get decent block with sacrificing an assload of defense & damage. (I should know, I have a maxblock Windy and it was by no means easy). Of course, apparently some of us need 100 extra points for max block :roll:


All six of these things close-range casters had at least decent access to last patch. They've gotten hit in every aspect of survivability, including MDR/PDR when you consider what you're giving up in return by trying to obtain it (IE: The other 6 aspects of survivability, life included)
On top of the fact they've lost ~100 easy dexterity from gear, the ability to actually slap a ring on for 15%-20% absorb for specific bosses, ~50-100 hard points in vitality due to strength nerfs, and ~15-20% DR, they deserve 25% decrease in total life?

Of course, Blue already knows this, this is why he plans to nerf some of the least played builds in the game.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:51 pm 
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where is that sig about not basing balance around end game chars?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
where is that sig about not basing balance around end game chars?


I'd like to think if I was fucked end game I'd be fucked all game. ^^ Then again norm is pretty easy with a half decent team and some diamonds so really a non-issue for norm. No one really stays in nightmare. Hell is where its happenin and shakin and oak sage-in.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
On top of the fact they've lost ~100 easy dexterity from gear, the ability to actually slap a ring on for 15%-20% absorb for specific bosses, ~50-100 hard points in vitality due to strength nerfs, and ~15-20% DR, they deserve 25% decrease in total life?

If their life is 8-10k, then yep - 25%.

Abominae wrote:
Of course, Blue already knows this, this is why he plans to nerf some of the least played builds in the game.

yep. The only one I have heard complained about is Windys. WC barbs are perfectly fine and have no problem with oak, especially with the ability to dual prayer end game. And any paladin build is already being compensated for, so I can't think of a build that was listed in this thread that will suffer other than Windys. No adjustment is ever perfect, if Windys bear a little suffering that would be a shame, but that is the way it works. On the flip side, the druid skill tree is robust and druid items are plentiful, so I suspect that they will do just fine even with a 25% HP loss.

I'll play a Windy though just to demonstrate - much like I did when people said rabies druids suck balls, or Golemmancers. I tend to have fun with gimped builds as it actually makes me work a little bit.

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how many close range casters are there? All i can think of is windy, firestorm and the generic nova builds.

Nova builds are fine without buffs, i used to rape with my old nova sorc with just self bo. Full circle attack that causes FHR is an awesome line of defence.

You don't need to be toe to toe with a windy for the double hit, since they move in and out, you can position yourself half a screen away and get the double strike on the inward bend of the nados when they both come together, it also keeps oak alive longer if you do that as it's not hovering in close. + hurricane that slows all close range trash so you get hit less often

Firestorm can be cast in wolf/bear form so you already got the extra lifebuff from 1 point lycan + your form.

Warcry barb already has 2 hp buffs

Are there more close range casters? I can't think off the top of my head.

I know I brought sorbs into it, but in reality, the only elemental attack that hurts is blizz, even with 0 absorb.
-------------------------------------------------------

Idea, what about leaving it at 3% but giving HoW/SoB 1% hp buff per soft point in oak. That way those unused spirits may get some action and it aleviates the drop in % with a bigger party.

I don't really care what is done, it would just be nice to not check in to the forums and see a massive ongoing argument every time. :(

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:29 pm 
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I have been trying to read this entire thread but it is frustrating me to no end.
People are screaming that this will be a mistake. It wasn't long ago that there were threads where the defence was
'well, nobody said anything when the proposed changes were posted.'
now it is clear that even if they did say something (like abom did) everything would have went down the same.
The fact that you justify oak being so much more powerful now because of an extra +5 skills that were not available before should be enough to disqualify you. You say wc barbs are OK cause they can dual prayer late game? what? what about ppl who havent had a zod in 2 ladders (myself) ?
I just dont have the energy to form a proper argument and everyone in this thread is doing it better than I would anyways. People told you how stupid it was to give paladins an extra hundred VITA for no reason but because you cant get max block on a paladin (LOLOLOL) its now being done.
You go on to say how much you understand about this game and how you know everything, who approved the nerfs to amp damage? who implemented broken zod rws? who added medi amulets and is now removing them? how does somebody that KNOWS EVERYTHING make so many MISTAKES?
If I was in your shoes for a minute, I'd start fucking listening to people that know more about this game that you do.
fuck.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:42 pm 

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Zikur wrote:
I have been trying to read this entire thread but it is frustrating me to no end.
People are screaming that this will be a mistake. It wasn't long ago that there were threads where the defence was
'well, nobody said anything when the proposed changes were posted.'
now it is clear that even if they did say something (like abom did) everything would have went down the same.
The fact that you justify oak being so much more powerful now because of an extra +5 skills that were not available before should be enough to disqualify you. You say wc barbs are OK cause they can dual prayer late game? what? what about ppl who havent had a zod in 2 ladders (myself) ?
I just dont have the energy to form a proper argument and everyone in this thread is doing it better than I would anyways. People told you how stupid it was to give paladins an extra hundred VITA for no reason but because you cant get max block on a paladin (LOLOLOL) its now being done.
You go on to say how much you understand about this game and how you know everything, who approved the nerfs to amp damage? who implemented broken zod rws? who added medi amulets and is now removing them? how does somebody that KNOWS EVERYTHING make so many MISTAKES?
If I was in your shoes for a minute, I'd start fucking listening to people that know more about this game that you do.
fuck.


I wish I could sig this whole post. lol

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:58 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
how many close range casters are there? All i can think of is windy, firestorm and the generic nova builds.

Nova builds are fine without buffs, i used to rape with my old nova sorc with just self bo. Full circle attack that causes FHR is an awesome line of defence.

You don't need to be toe to toe with a windy for the double hit, since they move in and out, you can position yourself half a screen away and get the double strike on the inward bend of the nados when they both come together, it also keeps oak alive longer if you do that as it's not hovering in close. + hurricane that slows all close range trash so you get hit less often

Firestorm can be cast in wolf/bear form so you already got the extra lifebuff from 1 point lycan + your form.

Warcry barb already has 2 hp buffs

Are there more close range casters? I can't think off the top of my head.

I know I brought sorbs into it, but in reality, the only elemental attack that hurts is blizz, even with 0 absorb.
-------------------------------------------------------

Idea, what about leaving it at 3% but giving HoW/SoB 1% hp buff per soft point in oak. That way those unused spirits may get some action and it aleviates the drop in % with a bigger party.

I don't really care what is done, it would just be nice to not check in to the forums and see a massive ongoing argument every time. :(


I don't know. Maybe when you or Blue can form a decent argument against why Oak needs nerfed then someone in the community will listen. So far I've nothing but blunt rambling from you and Blue. It's pretty sad actually.. and disappointing. I'd expect more from you PureRage but you've lost some points of respect here. I'm going to clearly explain why your wrong.

It isn't simply close ranger casters who are affected first of all. Elemental zealers, melee javazons, vengeance paladins and there are more in the list but the point is NOT one class or CHARACTER is affected by the game. EVERYTHING IS and that is including tanks. The effect on LoS area will be devastating for people who actually try to do it legit. Not everyone EXPLOITS. And steels Post brought out a good point on a bug.

As far as Nova sorcs. I have a hard time believing with self BO that you "raped." And solo at that especially. In an area like Tundra or A4 RoF. You are also only talking about "trash" areas. What about bosses? What about the more difficult areas in the game? Citadel, Samhain, LoS, Cleft, and Baal. It isn't just based off 1-2 trash areas. You have to think GLOBALLY here. This is a change has a GLOBAL effect.

Have you played a windy druid this ladder? They are very poor at killing and how do you expect to kill without enigma? You have to teleport ONTO the enemy in order for your merc to cast AMP and kill effectively. Killing from the distance like you propose for a Windy druid is like Blue talking about adding 100 stat points because he can't block. The hurricane on a Windy has VERY LOW cold pierce. What can it kill from the distance?? Are you joking me? A windy at distance is INEFFECTIVE. You don't know what your talking about.

Let's not forget. Nerfed Abs, Nerfed access to block, and nerfed Stress accessibility has ALREADY over all weakened EVERY caster. Nerfing their viability even more so and they end up like MELEES in which Blue then comes around and says "OK WHOOPS I made a mistake" OH wait he never admits his mistakes but he'll say add a change to try and fix what hes blatantly fucked up. Kind of like with melees?

Now watch Mindsins. Who now will have access to an easy 100+ % pierce and be able to wear War compiled with Phys/Mag nerfed on bosses and a huge damage boost will end up becoming the build and then Blue will come back around and say "WHOOPS" gotta nerf them too!

As Zikur said. He doesn't know shit about this game and it's OBVIOUS to everyone else. Blue is a joke.

By the way, do you honestly think people are going to max Oak and 1 pt lycan on a firestorm or hurricane druid?? You think people will pass up double the life on lycan to max oak? :roll: Everyone will end up maxing Lycan which will end up being an ACTUAL life buff for Hurricane/Armageddon Druids.. of course.. blue is too stupid to see that. Oh yeah. It's also DEMOTING parties HUGELY.

By the way PureRage talking about a Nova sorc you had before Blue initialized his Rape the game patch doesn't count. Nova sorcs could hit block easily before Blues nerfs came along. And i'm 99.9% you don't have a Nova sorc this ladder.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:18 am 
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Lee wrote:

I wish I could sig this whole post. lol


I wish I could sig this whole thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:42 am 

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You know the funny part. The most amazing part of it all is that Blue doesn't even compromise. He doesn't say "Ok I understand the communitys concern but I want some form of a nerf so I'll take it to 4%. Does that sound ok?" He makes no attempt to try to fix the problem. He just adds to the problem. Even a reasonable person with so many people against him would compromise. Blue?? Guy is just a psycho.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:16 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:33 am 
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I have no idea how can people get 10k hp on a caster; I cannot. Maybe I am a noob, maybe I suck at this game, but I cannot. I can get to 3,4k with self-BO on my trapsin at lvl94 and I am still trashed by anything nastier.
My lvl90 2h charger has 2,7k hp, and no self-BO. Apparently, I don't have enough runes to make another CTA. He gets killed every second corner, and he is useless at bosses right now (despite the huge listed damage). I had troubles getting maxed resists, even. I know, I should use a shield so that I can survive.. but won't there be space for 'novelty' builds? Does every paladin have to have a shield?

Anyway, the point of my post was: not everyone has the patience/time to get the best gear possible. Consider them too, when you nerf everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:41 am 
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I don't know. Maybe when you or Blue can form a decent argument against why Oak needs nerfed then someone in the community will listen. So far I've nothing but blunt rambling from you and Blue. It's pretty sad actually.. and disappointing. I'd expect more from you PureRage but you've lost some points of respect here. I'm going to clearly explain why your wrong.


first off, reel your attitude in, i'm not arguing here, i'm giving my opinion just like you are

Quote:
It isn't simply close ranger casters who are affected first of all. Elemental zealers, melee javazons, vengeance paladins and there are more in the list but the point is NOT one class or CHARACTER is affected by the game. EVERYTHING IS and that is including tanks. The effect on LoS area will be devastating for people who actually try to do it legit. Not everyone EXPLOITS. And steels Post brought out a good point on a bug.


melee javazons? you mean like my old one that ran with no oak and only died due to my stupidity and over confidence against massive stacked blizz?
Who exploits btw? I hope thats not directed at me as out of the 2 of us, i have a much better track record so don't pull that shit.
FYI LoS is all about avoiding damage not having enough hp, no amount of hp will save you in there (you didn't see what happened when i tried to melee the necro with ~40k hp and you didn't see the sin 1 shot a kicker with 30k life. Don't bring LoS into the argument when the ones that actually do damage do it in a 1 hit kill fassion).
Ps. also, oak is only useful when the person using it is paying attention :mrgreen:

Quote:
As far as Nova sorcs. I have a hard time believing with self BO that you "raped." And solo at that especially. In an area like Tundra or A4 RoF. You are also only talking about "trash" areas. What about bosses? What about the more difficult areas in the game? Citadel, Samhain, LoS, Cleft, and Baal. It isn't just based off 1-2 trash areas. You have to think GLOBALLY here. This is a change has a GLOBAL effect.


Lmao, you didn't see her for a start. it's hard not to rape when you can kill stuff before it reaches you, nova is a trashing build but you can still solo non immune bosses just by teleporting around with 75k t storm.
Citadel? seriously? I used to solo ancients way > sammy tp with my fire sorc with no bo at all. A2 merc with ice javs + medusas >>> any trash mob, including chargers with amp.
The rest is just you being stupid. can your fire druid solo the baal quest yet..?

Quote:
Have you played a windy druid this ladder? They are very poor at killing and how do you expect to kill without enigma? You have to teleport ONTO the enemy in order for your merc to cast AMP and kill effectively. Killing from the distance like you propose for a Windy druid is like Blue talking about adding 100 stat points because he can't block. The hurricane on a Windy has VERY LOW cold pierce. What can it kill from the distance?? Are you joking me? A windy at distance is INEFFECTIVE. You don't know what your talking about.


1: what has eni got to do with kill speed?
2: you dont have to teleport onto an enemy for your merc to cast amp. You do realise you can attack while your merc closes the gap to the enemy and casts amp for you don't you?
3: Killing from the distance i proposed? Oh right, you mean like i killed every boss in the game on my old windy with jarl tanking on his barb last patch? Don't bring boss phys res or any of that shit into it as thats old news and don't change the fact that you score a double hit from a good distance away if you get your positioning right.
4: Nobody said hurricane kills stuff at a distance, maybe you should read my post propperly before you get all pissed off and start crying (like usual). I said its a nice line of defence as it slows the stuff that gets close enough to melee you so you take less damage...

Quote:
Let's not forget. Nerfed Abs, Nerfed access to block, and nerfed Stress accessibility has ALREADY over all weakened EVERY caster. Nerfing their viability even more so and they end up like MELEES in which Blue then comes around and says "OK WHOOPS I made a mistake" OH wait he never admits his mistakes but he'll say add a change to try and fix what hes blatantly fucked up. Kind of like with melees?


wait, what elemental skills are you talking about? the only elemental spell that is dangerous now is blizz, everything else is complete garbage. Meteor is easy to avoid, and the other "big hitters" are DoT skills that get wtf raped by MDR (40 MDR = 1000 DPS Negated incase you didn't realise (apparently you didnt).

Quote:
Now watch Mindsins. Who now will have access to an easy 100+ % pierce and be able to wear War compiled with Phys/Mag nerfed on bosses and a huge damage boost will end up becoming the build and then Blue will come back around and say "WHOOPS" gotta nerf them too!


Wait, didn't abominae propose the mindblast changes? I think they needed a buff personally, if you think they are fine then speak up and maybe the changes can be reverted.

Quote:
By the way, do you honestly think people are going to max Oak and 1 pt lycan on a firestorm or hurricane druid?? You think people will pass up double the life on lycan to max oak? :roll: Everyone will end up maxing Lycan which will end up being an ACTUAL life buff for Hurricane/Armageddon Druids.. of course.. blue is too stupid to see that. Oh yeah. It's also DEMOTING parties HUGELY.


I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that people will continue to max oak. If you think that you are being stupid and I assume you are not actually interested in discussing it and would rather spew a huge stream of complete bullshit "facts" that you have no idea of.

Quote:
By the way PureRage talking about a Nova sorc you had before Blue initialized his Rape the game patch doesn't count. Nova sorcs could hit block easily before Blues nerfs came along. And i'm 99.9% you don't have a Nova sorc this ladder.


I had 0% chance to block on that sorc so the nerfs wouldn't matter. It would just make it easier to hit max damage and I would be able to use more mana/life charms and gain alot more life.

Finally, at the start of the season, you didn't even know the most basic of things about HU, (asking extremely basic questions about D2 mechanics in a game, i actually thought you were sasko/kasia until someone told me you were running with ben).

If you take a look at my last post, you will see I was trying to get into a discussion with zak about close range casters and i even said I was a little concerned for melee sins. I certainly wasnt getting into an argument. You decided to ride in like the white knight on your piece of shit donkey steed with a huge flame post. Next time, try replying to me like a grown up or just don't reply to me at all. Those rage posts are extremely childish and I've read enough of that shit. You ALSO missed:
Quote:
Idea, what about leaving it at 3% but giving HoW/SoB 1% hp buff per soft point in oak. That way those unused spirits may get some action and it aleviates the drop in % with a bigger party.

I don't really care what is done, it would just be nice to not check in to the forums and see a massive ongoing argument every time. :(


Oh yeh, but opening the floor to 2 skills that are NEVER used outside of a 1 pointer is a fucking terrible idea.

"I WANT MOAR DMGZ AND LIFEZ AND DEFZ AND ITAMZZZ"

jesus fucking christ

Ps. I already said, i don't really care if it gets nerfed or not. also, i'm not defending the change. I'd actually rather all the spirits synergised each other and could be summoner at the same time. I also think druid summons need a massive damage buff. I stopped posting stuff here due to the shit storm that your post reflects though. Thats also why i decided to not get involved in implementing changes this time around too.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:52 am 
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hi all , im really against the nerf to oak as well i think many have come up with valid points .
i got a suggestion too here goes
instead of removing the lifebuff on oak why not take the increased maximum life % away from gems ? my paladin has around 10k base hp with 8 bloodstones in armor / helm and without around 5 or so , its a huge buff and gems give more hp than anything , ofcourse i filled my inventory with lifecharms aswell but they dont come close to adding the same amount.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:18 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
I don't know. Maybe when you or Blue can form a decent argument against why Oak needs nerfed then someone in the community will listen. So far I've nothing but blunt rambling from you and Blue. It's pretty sad actually.. and disappointing. I'd expect more from you PureRage but you've lost some points of respect here. I'm going to clearly explain why your wrong.


first off, reel your attitude in, i'm not arguing here, i'm giving my opinion just like you are

Quote:
It isn't simply close ranger casters who are affected first of all. Elemental zealers, melee javazons, vengeance paladins and there are more in the list but the point is NOT one class or CHARACTER is affected by the game. EVERYTHING IS and that is including tanks. The effect on LoS area will be devastating for people who actually try to do it legit. Not everyone EXPLOITS. And steels Post brought out a good point on a bug.


melee javazons? you mean like my old one that ran with no oak and only died due to my stupidity and over confidence against massive stacked blizz?
Who exploits btw? I hope thats not directed at me as out of the 2 of us, i have a much better track record so don't pull that shit.
FYI LoS is all about avoiding damage not having enough hp, no amount of hp will save you in there (you didn't see what happened when i tried to melee the necro with ~40k hp and you didn't see the sin 1 shot a kicker with 30k life. Don't bring LoS into the argument when the ones that actually do damage do it in a 1 hit kill fassion).
Ps. also, oak is only useful when the person using it is paying attention :mrgreen:

Quote:
As far as Nova sorcs. I have a hard time believing with self BO that you "raped." And solo at that especially. In an area like Tundra or A4 RoF. You are also only talking about "trash" areas. What about bosses? What about the more difficult areas in the game? Citadel, Samhain, LoS, Cleft, and Baal. It isn't just based off 1-2 trash areas. You have to think GLOBALLY here. This is a change has a GLOBAL effect.


Lmao, you didn't see her for a start. it's hard not to rape when you can kill stuff before it reaches you, nova is a trashing build but you can still solo non immune bosses just by teleporting around with 75k t storm.
Citadel? seriously? I used to solo ancients way > sammy tp with my fire sorc with no bo at all. A2 merc with ice javs + medusas >>> any trash mob, including chargers with amp.
The rest is just you being stupid. can your fire druid solo the baal quest yet..?

Quote:
Have you played a windy druid this ladder? They are very poor at killing and how do you expect to kill without enigma? You have to teleport ONTO the enemy in order for your merc to cast AMP and kill effectively. Killing from the distance like you propose for a Windy druid is like Blue talking about adding 100 stat points because he can't block. The hurricane on a Windy has VERY LOW cold pierce. What can it kill from the distance?? Are you joking me? A windy at distance is INEFFECTIVE. You don't know what your talking about.


1: what has eni got to do with kill speed?
2: you dont have to teleport onto an enemy for your merc to cast amp. You do realise you can attack while your merc closes the gap to the enemy and casts amp for you don't you?
3: Killing from the distance i proposed? Oh right, you mean like i killed every boss in the game on my old windy with jarl tanking on his barb last patch? Don't bring boss phys res or any of that shit into it as thats old news and don't change the fact that you score a double hit from a good distance away if you get your positioning right.
4: Nobody said hurricane kills stuff at a distance, maybe you should read my post propperly before you get all pissed off and start crying (like usual). I said its a nice line of defence as it slows the stuff that gets close enough to melee you so you take less damage...

Quote:
Let's not forget. Nerfed Abs, Nerfed access to block, and nerfed Stress accessibility has ALREADY over all weakened EVERY caster. Nerfing their viability even more so and they end up like MELEES in which Blue then comes around and says "OK WHOOPS I made a mistake" OH wait he never admits his mistakes but he'll say add a change to try and fix what hes blatantly fucked up. Kind of like with melees?


wait, what elemental skills are you talking about? the only elemental spell that is dangerous now is blizz, everything else is complete garbage. Meteor is easy to avoid, and the other "big hitters" are DoT skills that get wtf raped by MDR (40 MDR = 1000 DPS Negated incase you didn't realise (apparently you didnt).

Quote:
Now watch Mindsins. Who now will have access to an easy 100+ % pierce and be able to wear War compiled with Phys/Mag nerfed on bosses and a huge damage boost will end up becoming the build and then Blue will come back around and say "WHOOPS" gotta nerf them too!


Wait, didn't abominae propose the mindblast changes? I think they needed a buff personally, if you think they are fine then speak up and maybe the changes can be reverted.

Quote:
By the way, do you honestly think people are going to max Oak and 1 pt lycan on a firestorm or hurricane druid?? You think people will pass up double the life on lycan to max oak? :roll: Everyone will end up maxing Lycan which will end up being an ACTUAL life buff for Hurricane/Armageddon Druids.. of course.. blue is too stupid to see that. Oh yeah. It's also DEMOTING parties HUGELY.


I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that people will not max oak. If you think that you are being stupid and I assume you are not actually interested in discussing it and would rather spew a huge stream of complete bullshit "facts" that you have no idea of.

Quote:
By the way PureRage talking about a Nova sorc you had before Blue initialized his Rape the game patch doesn't count. Nova sorcs could hit block easily before Blues nerfs came along. And i'm 99.9% you don't have a Nova sorc this ladder.


I had 0% chance to block on that sorc so the nerfs wouldn't matter. It would just make it easier to hit max damage and I would be able to use more mana/life charms and gain alot more life.

Finally, at the start of the season, you didn't even know the most basic of things about HU, (asking extremely basic questions about D2 mechanics in a game, i actually thought you were sasko/kasia until someone told me you were running with ben).

If you take a look at my last post, you will see I was trying to get into a discussion with zak about close range casters and i even said I was a little concerned for melee sins. I certainly wasnt getting into an argument. You decided to ride in like the white knight on your piece of shit donkey steed with a huge flame post. Next time, try replying to me like a grown up or just don't reply to me at all. Those rage posts are extremely childish and I've read enough of that shit. You ALSO missed:
Quote:
Idea, what about leaving it at 3% but giving HoW/SoB 1% hp buff per soft point in oak. That way those unused spirits may get some action and it aleviates the drop in % with a bigger party.

I don't really care what is done, it would just be nice to not check in to the forums and see a massive ongoing argument every time. :(


Oh yeh, but opening the floor to 2 skills that are NEVER used outside of a 1 pointer is a fucking terrible idea.

"I WANT MOAR DMGZ AND LIFEZ AND DEFZ AND ITAMZZZ"

jesus fucking christ


My attitude? lol. I don't have an attitude. I'm just speaking on my opinion. You still have no argument. But wheres the attitude? I lose respect for you because you say things I disagree with so that means I have a attitude? Please don't use your blue logic on me buddy it won't work.

1)Melee zons not like your old one. MELEE ZONS PERIOD. I am not making any reference to YOU at ALL. I am talking about ANY Melee zon. Your reference is irrelevant and no bearing on the point I was making. As far as saying "who exploits" that wasn't directed at you. You directed it at yourself and threw an insult at me for no reason. Good job smartass! I was talking about exploiting LoS in general. Never once did I mention your name or assert in any way or form that I was implying YOU exploit.

LoS isn't about avoiding damage. Wtf are you talking about? For LoS to be done successfully and safely you need a proper party with Oak ALWAYS in range hence DRHC Smiter dying. You have to be able to get into range in order to either Smite them, or tank them. They are tankable with the right gear. With blues change they won't be tankable anymore. Your theory on LoS is completely false. Any legit HC player would completely disagree with you. Again throwing insults like a little kid. Your as cute as Blue but you won't win an argument with me. You never have actually. :roll:

2) Damage is completely irrelevant to survivability. A nova sorc will NOT kill everything before it reaches her due to the AoE. It won't stop ranged attacks, and a Nova sorc won't kill everything instantly even with Tstorm. Without any block DR, ABS or resists I'd be surprised to see your Nova doodling around everywhere killing everything. In fact, why don't you make on this ladder and prove me wrong. I find it hilarious that play a Nova sorc out to be much more then what it is. It is one of the most dangerous Sorcs to play. It requires YOU to come into close range and YOU will get HIT positively. Anyone who has played in Hell would know this. I don't think anyone here would agree on your assertions of Nova sorcs. Based on what you say, we should all make Nova sorcs and rape the trash world. And yes my Fire druid can solo baal Quest..? What are you trying to say? Did you not see my screenshot? I don't get your point?

3) What has Engima have to do with kill speed? You see well just like YOU. I thought Windy druids didn't need an Enigma. JUST like YOU. I assumed everything your saying now until I actually played with Zac on Nazguls Windy who uses it. YOU have to have Enigma to teleport and KILL effectively, PERIOD. Nado from the distance doesn't do shit, especially with the amp nerf as it is. You get most effectiveness on top of the enemy with nado.

LOL you don't have to teleport on an enemy for your merc to cast amp? Go play in Tundra and let me know how your merc does casting AMP. I could take what you say and then say "Oh you don't need a nigma on a Necro with a a1 merc theoretically, it will still hit targets." Sounds stupid, doesn't it? The most EFFECTIVE way to kill is with ENIGMA. PERIOD. If you want to argue, go take it up with Abominae, Nazgul and any other experience Windy druid as I have not had extensive experience but have only learned through a name or two from the above list. I also learned through watching them.

I'm not the one crying my friend. It's you. Your crying and it's annoyingly loud. You keep assuming I'm attacking and insulting you when I'm simply expressing my opinion politely. Just because I lost respect for you, your going to throw a little tantrum now? :lol: And if I misread your post on Hurricane I apologize. I may have made a mistake but regardless every other point stands.

As far as other elemental skills. I never stated that there were comparable elemental skills to blizz. Blizz rapes HARD now due to the buff. That doesn't mean the other elemental skills DO NO damage or have little bearing. Especially when your LOW life and have no leech. Have fun running around in Trav with your MDR gear while lighting is all up your ass. Tell me it doesn't hurt then because it's going to take you TWICE-THREE Times as long to kill because you decided to MDR your gear Fireball also hurts, Fissure rapes. Generals LF rapes. There is a long list but I'm not going to compile it to prove my point. Blizzard simply isn't the only elemental damage dealing component of the game contrary to your belief.

As far as Abominae posting the Buff. He didn't create the ruenwords. He didn't add pierce to SS killers. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together. Compiled with phys nerf and mag res on bosses + a huge boost to Mindsins and HUGE pierce gear they will stand out. I can't say if they will over powered yet because I don't know for sure. We will find out when the patch comes out. I've never played a Mindsin. I'm just putting "two" and "two" together.

And regarding Oak. I have no idea what your talking about. Your response made absolutely no sense to me. LOL. You think people will still max Oak with the nerf initiated? You really think people will pass up 6% life in lycan to max Oak for over all less life in their characters when people solo more than half the time now? Let's see what the community thinks.. Steel has already stated what most people are thinking. NO ONE IS GOING TO MAX OAK! Only you think they WILL. Your in LA LA land. WAKE UP MR. PURERAGE. Stop dreaming.


As far as my knowledge of mechanics in D2. That has nothing to do with this post at all. Your throwing out kiddy insults to try to make yourself look your winning this argument but your not. I didn't flame you as I've stated a few times previously. You took it as I did. Your the real baby here. I simply stated an opinion that harshly disagreed with you and now your blowing fire up your ass all over the place. Accusing me of shit I never said etc. the whole world is after YOU purerage, isn't it?! Jesus Fucking Christ is right my man. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:15 am 
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Screw it, I'm not working today so i`ll jump into the argument with both feet.

dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. You completely failed to even be an oak bitch in LoS so stop acting like you know everything when you can't even stand in the right fucking place. No wonder Pious/Ben was worried about doing LoS with you as the only Oak...

You don't even realise that most of the people you play with laugh at how bad you are (obviously they don't want to say it to upset you as I usually wouldn't but if you want to be a little dick then I ain't gonna hold back).

LoS is all about avoiding damage, if you think it isn't you shouldn't even be going there on HC. Theres a reason smite is so effective (hint it's not its amazing damage)

I'm pretty sure i've done LoS more times than you have and in much smaller teams. Also playing the main tank role and not the oak bitch (that you can't even manage).

You have never even played a melee zon so stop acting like you know how they perform.

A nova sorc WILL kill everything before it reaches her simply with static. Nova is only really used on the stuff that is left after you static the screen to death. I know exactly how she performed and so does ben/naz/delta/everyone else who teamed with her for tundra runs. I used to load the game full and blitz the place in under 3 minutes. Thanks for telling ME how MY sorc performed though. Just because you fail at making a sorc don't mean everyone does. She used ES with maxed TK, 6k mana and life + ES and meditation = tank anything. If you get mana burned you have 6k hp to fall back on so you can tele back, put es up again and let the merc close the gap to the mana burn pack. I don't expect you to think of something like that though as your knowledge of the game is equivelant to a dog's knowledge about astro physics.

You get the double hit with nado at point blank sure. You also get it every time the nado's bend together (6 times per cast?) Obviously naz/zak will be going toe to toe with enemys if you are in the parts as they have no choice. I'd rather have myself doing the tanking on a melee necro than depend on you to do any kind of tanking too.

You don't have to tele directly onto an enemy for them to cast amp. You do know how to group stuff together so the amp effects more enemys right? no? ok, lmfao.

You did start rambling like a 6 month old that just shit it's nappy. Don't even pretend you didn't. I made my points then you jumped on it like a fat girl on a pie. I don't even think you bothered reading it. You just seen what you wanted to see, got mad and went on a huge rant. Also, i'm not your "friend" theres a reason i never added you to my friends list even after we started being polite. The reason is your an incompitent fool. I'm not the only one who thinks so btw.

Blizzard is the only elemental skill that has any chance of killing you even when you are prepared. Ardual is deadly sure, but if you gear for the fight he can barely scratch you. I generally don't rely on bo bot's etc. If there are no lifebuffs in my team then thats just tough titty, you can still progress just fine without them. Granted it's more risky but you certainly won't die from lightning (lmfao btw) and the generals damage is the initial PHYSICAL component of light fury that is applied with the initial missile. Again, you are wrong.

Zak did post about sins needing a buff, and you think that buffing a SINGLE TARGET skill is gonna be imba? First, only half the damage is gonna be taking advantage of mag pierce so maybe 30k? aka less than a single bone spear and with lower FCR. Even if it is OP, so what? this is a game, you are acting like it's life and death. You should maybe take a break and step into the real world for a few days and realise that if a build in a game becomes OP, it's not something to bust a blood vessel over.

If nobody maxes oak, who cares? that's their problem not mine. I'll sure as shit max it just like I always have since it's the only option on a druid. To be honest, if you don't max oak, thats probs a + to the party as nobody will have to depend on you staying close enough or have the fear of you randomly rejoining when meph looks at you the wrong way, leaving the entire party without a lifebuff (yes I was in that game last patch and that's why i would NEVER depend on you as the only lifebuff).

You did start arguing, maybe you should read my post that angered you, then read your responce. I'm actually kinda surprised you think you are the innocent party here.

If you had responded to my post like I had hoped Zak would (by talking about what casters he was concerned about and the builds that really need the lifebuff) then we wouldn't be here arguing. You seemed to assume that I was having a go at him (that I certainly wasn't) and jumped to his rescue (as if he needs it?). Man crush much?
I enjoy discussing the game with Zak, he conducts himself really well and will discuss things without resorting to your shitty attitude.
I don't enjoy discussing it with you because you don't have any real info, you act like a child, and your knowledge of the game is terrible at best.

Ps. PMing you before we make even more of a mess of this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:21 am 

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Lets see...

1.infallible Blue logic
2.dick measuring
3.shitstorm

Yep definitely in the suggestions forum. Where the fuck is Rasta lets crack this one outta the park.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:28 am 

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I have no real problem with any of these changes, but I feel it would be wise to learn from the last patches problems in that moderation in changes would help avoid unforseen problems. Patches don't come around very often and it would be a shame to have a different serious issue for another 6 months. Also, to be honest, I guess I am a bit bothered that paladins have been so damaged that adding an extra stat point per level is now considered a viable solution. Maybe it'll work out great, maybe not, who knows for sure, but I guess they do need some sort of help at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:45 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Screw it, I'm not working today so i`ll jump into the argument with both feet.

dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. You completely failed to even be an oak bitch in LoS so stop acting like you know everything when you can't even stand in the right fucking place. No wonder Pious/Ben was worried about doing LoS with you as the only Oak...

You don't even realise that most of the people you play with laugh at how bad you are (obviously they don't want to say it to upset you as I usually wouldn't but if you want to be a little dick then I ain't gonna hold back).

LoS is all about avoiding damage, if you think it isn't you shouldn't even be going there on HC. Theres a reason smite is so effective (hint it's not its amazing damage)

I'm pretty sure i've done LoS more times than you have and in much smaller teams. Also playing the main tank role and not the oak bitch (that you can't even manage).

You have never even played a melee zon so stop acting like you know how they perform.

A nova sorc WILL kill everything before it reaches her simply with static. Nova is only really used on the stuff that is left after you static the screen to death. I know exactly how she performed and so does ben/naz/delta/everyone else who teamed with her for tundra runs. I used to load the game full and blitz the place in under 3 minutes. Thanks for telling ME how MY sorc performed though. Just because you fail at making a sorc don't mean everyone does. She used ES with maxed TK, 6k mana and life + ES and meditation = tank anything. If you get mana burned you have 6k hp to fall back on so you can tele back, put es up again and let the merc close the gap to the mana burn pack. I don't expect you to think of something like that though as your knowledge of the game is equivelant to a dog's knowledge about astro physics.

You get the double hit with nado at point blank sure. You also get it every time the nado's bend together (6 times per cast?) Obviously naz/zak will be going toe to toe with enemys if you are in the parts as they have no choice. I'd rather have myself doing the tanking on a melee necro than depend on you to do any kind of tanking too.

You don't have to tele directly onto an enemy for them to cast amp. You do know how to group stuff together so the amp effects more enemys right? no? ok, lmfao.

You did start rambling like a 6 month old that just shit it's nappy. Don't even pretend you didn't. I made my points then you jumped on it like a fat girl on a pie. I don't even think you bothered reading it. You just seen what you wanted to see, got mad and went on a huge rant. Also, i'm not your "friend" theres a reason i never added you to my friends list even after we started being polite. The reason is your an incompitent fool. I'm not the only one who thinks so btw.

Blizzard is the only elemental skill that has any chance of killing you even when you are prepared. Ardual is deadly sure, but if you gear for the fight he can barely scratch you. I generally don't rely on bo bot's etc. If there are no lifebuffs in my team then thats just tough titty, you can still progress just fine without them. Granted it's more risky but you certainly won't die from lightning (lmfao btw) and the generals damage is the initial PHYSICAL component of light fury that is applied with the initial missile. Again, you are wrong.

Zak did post about sins needing a buff, and you think that buffing a SINGLE TARGET skill is gonna be imba? First, only half the damage is gonna be taking advantage of mag pierce so maybe 30k? aka less than a single bone spear and with lower FCR. Even if it is OP, so what? this is a game, you are acting like it's life and death. You should maybe take a break and step into the real world for a few days and realise that if a build in a game becomes OP, it's not something to bust a blood vessel over.

If nobody maxes oak, who cares? that's their problem not mine. I'll sure as shit max it just like I always have since it's the only option on a druid. To be honest, if you don't max oak, thats probs a + to the party as nobody will have to depend on you staying close enough or have the fear of you randomly rejoining when meph looks at you the wrong way, leaving the entire party without a lifebuff (yes I was in that game last patch and that's why i would NEVER depend on you as the only lifebuff).

You did start arguing, maybe you should read my post that angered you, then read your responce. I'm actually kinda surprised you think you are the innocent party here.

If you had responded to my post like I had hoped Zak would (by talking about what casters he was concerned about and the builds that really need the lifebuff) then we wouldn't be here arguing. You seemed to assume that I was having a go at him (that I certainly wasn't) and jumped to his rescue (as if he needs it?). Man crush much?
I enjoy discussing the game with Zak, he conducts himself really well and will discuss things without resorting to your shitty attitude.
I don't enjoy discussing it with you because you don't have any real info, you act like a child, and your knowledge of the game is terrible at best.

Ps. PMing you before we make even more of a mess of this thread.


You want to PM me before we make a mess of the thread? Are you joking me? The thread has been a mess since everyone started bashing Blue. You think our argument is going to change anything? There is nothing else to accomplish in this thread. Blue made his mind up. It become a flame fest long before you showed up. The point of the thread is a null point as blue didn't give a shit about any of our suggestions anyway. I'll be fine posting here, proving your ass wrong all day.

As far as LoS. Stfu, you don't even know what happened. You weren't there. You don't know how it went down AT ALL. Stop making half assed assertions. It was the first time I had done LoS in at least three years. Before when I did LoS with JarL it was when Bladesins were OP and you didn't have to smite. I had no idea what we were doing. I thought Ben was pulling him to the corner so I started running opposite direction but he was pulling him to the wall to smite him. It was an honest mistake that could have happened to the most skilled player. Experience in LoS doesn't mean shit as far as understanding the mechanics of the strategy used there.

Yeah as far as the people who play with me talking shit about me. I highly doubt that. I'm sure if there was anything they wanted to say about me, it would have came out after Los, wouldn't you say so yourself? The guys I play with don't talk shit behind my back. #1 on the ladder anyway, so who can really talk shit about me? Again.. throwing in little sissy insults to try to win an argument. Keep going on your nerd rage tantrum. I think it's cute and funny. :lol: :lol:

Back to the LoS is about avoiding damage. I'm still trying to understand WTF you are talking about. Of course it's about avoiding damage, isn't that obvious? You state blatant obvious shit. You want to AVOID any damage you CAN but you CAN'T do that when YOUR pulling the Druid trying to smite him. Explain your theory here. How do you avoid damage and successfully do LoS? LOL. You think my Oak would be required if LoS was about avoiding damage? Do you even listen to yourself. Think for a second.. or take two.. maybe a hour. I don't know the rate at which your brain can comprehend basic information but what you say MAKES NO SENSE. LoS is about TAKING damage, surviving and then KILLING them. The tank HAS to take damage. The smiter HAS to take damage, PERIOD. You can't DO LoS without TAKING damage. Get this retarded illusion out of your head that LoS is about avoiding damage. The biggest non sense rant I have ever heard.

Congratulations on your LoS role. I'm amazed that after doing it so many times you don't even know what LoS is about. "AVOIDING DAMAGE" LOL.

Playing a melee zon has nothing to do with my argument. I don't have to play one to know that a Oak nerf will hurt it in Melee range. :roll:

Let's hypothesize and your right about the Nova sorc. Maxing TK and using ES isn't something I could have came up with using a Nova sorc?? "ok" I'll go along and say your right regarding a Nova sorc. I've never played them. I don't know how Static works or how it kills. I assumed you were talking about Nova and TS but after seeing Static on SP I assume it could be as you say. That makes you right.. about one build? Wow! Good job! Your still wrong about everything else.

Regarding what you say on Ele druids is completely false. You don't know what the fuck your talking about. It is scientifically impossible to achieve more productivity killing from the distance, especially with the Amp nerf. Without teleporting you can't AMP the target you want to kill. Without teleporting you can't utilize the most damage possible. You can hardly control the AIM and direction of NADOS from a distance. Your logic, reasoning and argument is completely pathetic and half assed. You sound stupid as hell right now. Like I said listening to your argument is like hearing someone say "Necros dont need Engima for a1 Mercs."

As far as me going "off" on you. Go read my post again. In fact, let me ask ANYONE who reads this to go read my original post and find where I started going off, insulting you, accusing you of shit. Your like a crazy schizophrenic little girl. Your hearing and seeing things. Making shit up, assuming shit that isn't true. You need to slow down on the obsessive half assed assumption mentality. I didn't insult you at all in my original post and I did not come at you offensive by any means other then saying I lost respect because you failed to provide any reasonable means for a oak nerf and in fact YOU still haven't provided any reasonable means for a oak nerf. I'm still waiting?

Let's scratch the general portion. I don't know. The kid who mods verse the guy who plays? Maybe it is the physical portion of the skill. I don't mod the game or read upon every aspect but generals LF is one SKILL of the several others I mentioned that can kill you. Fissure still rapes. Most bosses will thrash a 6.5k life caster in Hell off elemental damage alone. Disagreeing with that is the most childish shit I have ever heard. Reduced abs, reduced DR, reduced block. It all goes along with the same point. Even if general LFS dmg isn't ALL elemental. A caster can't even get DR anymore due to the ALL around nerfs and that is the main POINT. Casters have ALREADY been nerfed HARD. They don't need any more nerfs. THAT IS THE ---MAIN--- point. Blizzard will rape a 6.5k life char EASILY. Probably in a few seconds but it isn't the only ELEMENTAL skill that will kill you.

What are you ranting on about Mindsins. You don't know wtf your talking about again. It's a single target skill that can be cast from very far away and produces NO COUNTERS at all. Even if it's Op? So what? It's just a game? Even if casters have TOO much life. Why nerf Oak? It's just a game, right? You sound stupid! You come here and try to defend Blue to the best of your ability but on inside you truly feel "it's just a game! Who cares!" Why don't you tell that to blue. And why don't you stop posting If "it's just a game and opness" doesn't matter to you.

You aren't doing shit for the community. You don't play here anymore. You only MOD what blue tells you to and you have to nerve to come here and throw your opinion in like you actually still play here. No one cares about you. Half the people don't like you here if you've read anything. Your on blues ass so tight he probably has blue balls. I just defended your stupid ass in the argument forum after someone bashed you but now I regret it dreadfully and I find it funny that you keep talking about people talking shit about me when I just read someone in argument forum TALKING shit about YOU, OPENLY.

Let me explain for you PureRage because you lack "common" d2 sense. People always choose the better over the latter. It always happens. It's human nature. If I gave you a 6 dollar bill or a 3 dollar bill, what would you take? Spare us your party sympathy. No one here plays in parties hardly anymore anyway and people always go after whats in their best interest. Again.. it's human nature. You can be the good boy and talk about how much character you have and what you would or wouldn't do but the majority of people will max lycan.

And if you didn't care whether they did or didn't then why would you argue with me saying I'm stupid for thinking they will? I mean seriously.. arguing with you is like talking to my mother. I'm trying to explain something in English and she starts going off in Korean making no sense and shit. Stop going back and forth. Make your mind. Am I stupid for believing people will max lycan or am I right for thinking so, and you don't care if they do or dont. Pick one or the other.

I know what is required to know in the game and I understand basic mechanics. That is something you fail miserably at. You can know everything you want about a car. You can ready every book there is but if you don't know how to start it, operate it or effectively use, then who gives a fuck? :roll:

I'm done arguing here though. I've already seen your two sided face. I can't even have a decent discussion with you. And again. I never came at you with any form of hostility. Grow the fuck up man.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:27 am 

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Nerf it :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:59 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
hex wrote:
I'm worried that I'll be spending more fight% just summoning the bugger than actually fighting the boss.

There is no adjustment in the actual HP of the sage itself, just how much %life it provides to players.


Always thought oak self-buffs itself HP wise after being summoned

Fast and dirty example:
oak life (mouseover skill): 1k
oak increase life aura: 100%
actual oak HP in game : 2k

Is this not the case?


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:28 am 
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hex wrote:
Always thought oak self-buffs itself HP wise after being summoned

Fast and dirty example:
oak life (mouseover skill): 1k
oak increase life aura: 100%
actual oak HP in game : 2k

Is this not the case?

True. This adjustment will not significantly alter those values enough to make a really notable difference in Oak's survivability though, so I don't think that will be a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:19 am 
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@Lee, since we are agreeing to chill out abit (made me edit a huge wall of text motherfucker!)

People will still max oak. maybe not every single druid out there but isn't that a good thing? I don't care if they do or they don't like I said. If they choose not to then thats cool. I'd personally rather the extra HP for HC play though.

Like I told you when I PM'd you I don't support the idea, but I'm not against it either. Who cares? lets give it a try and see how it goes.

Why would I care what someone says about me over the internet? I don't know those people, I don't care about those people, I probs wouldn't associate with those people. You really think I care about someone who's life is so empty they talk about someone who has pretty much left the comunity? It's kinda like these folks are craving someone to hate. If I can fill that hole in their heart then thats cool. I'm feel kinda sorry for them in that case.

I don't play here at the min because it's boring. Theres only so many times you can make a char before the novelty wears off. Theres only so many skill/gear combinations that you can mess around with before you get bored. also the folks I enjoy playing with ain't around any more. I'll start up again next reset most likely for the initial "no gear and no rushes"

I may be wrong but I really don't think mindsins will turn into the new powerhouse. Especially when you consider the cast rates. Compare it with a 50k firebolt/icebolt/tk that can pierce resistances to -100 for the full damage with a higher cast rate breakpoint.

I do mod but thats not a negative and it's not whare all my experience with the game is. I only stopped playing it around March. Because I got bored after building pretty much every build going, 3 months ago.

I'll repeat what i thought about the oak change

Quote:
Idea, what about leaving it at 3% but giving HoW/SoB 1% hp buff per soft point in oak. That way those unused spirits may get some action and it aleviates the drop in % with a bigger party.
I don't really care what is done, it would just be nice to not check in to the forums and see a massive ongoing argument every time.


@ LoS arguments, Oak is needed there but not to the extent you think it is. A regular level 30ish oak is enough, as long as the tank can break 27-28k hp with max block and dr%
Casters don't need oak in there as any of the sygnificant hits will kill them. I've seen the druid rip through a full 27k bulb in a single flurry with 150k def, max dr%, max block and max fire sorbs. No caster could survive that.
Those numbers are easily attainable on a decent melee with a current level 40 oak without using war armor and with a non buff bot BO.

@ windy argument. I assure you, you can score a double hit at range. Alex was doing it in the naked party from outside diablo's pentagram while diab was in the center, ask ban/bob/nova/whoever else was in the team, i forget now. You just have to find the right position.

Don't use amp for trashing on a windy, put a ctc decrep armor on your act 2 merc and have him proc it over much bigger areas. Decrep is not only more powerful offensively (in ctc form), but grants a huge defensive advantage over enemys (in ctc form). For bosses you want a necro's amp anyway so the merc is useless. Once bosses phys res is lowered a little you can switch to using steelspell on switch instead of depending on a merc for it. (who dies on bosses anyway).

Edit: heavily edited due to me and Lee being back in coon and friends together :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:37 am 
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i dig the SoB/How stuff by the way, sorry I didn't mention that before - got a little distracted by the other nonsense (which I really should have not even bothered to respond to). How viable is it to code?

I will say though, I have seen SC players specifically choose SoB over Oak even without the life buff, I know that I frequently do on my sorc & barb just to keep up on the powerful poison impacts in Hell. One of the things I liked about the Oak/Lycan adjustment was that it gave more flexibility to melee druids to use HoW instead of Oak as they are not getting such a huge infusion of their HP from Oak.

So I am a little unsure as to whether it is really needed, but not enough to say sure lets give it a whirl.

I took a quick look at skills.txt though and can't quite see where to tweak it to make that happen

P.S. fuck Lee - he's a moron, always has been. I haven't read a post of his in months as he happily sits in my ignore list.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:21 am 
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Its very simple to add.

the 2 skills are (if i remember right)
Wolverine Aura (ID297)
Barbs Aura (ID296)

the first free aurastat column for each of those skills, add: item_maxhp_percent
and in the calc column, add: skill('Oak Sage'.accr)

that gives the auras 1% hp per soft level on oak, so level 40 oak would give 40%hp bonus to HoW/SoB aura.

One more thing you need to do, is add the oak sage skill to HoW and SoB (so they can benefit from the synergy)

in Heart of Wolverine and SoB lines (Skill ID 246 and 236)

scroll along to sumskill2 column for both of them and add: Oak Sage
in the column next to it add: skill('Oak Sage'.accr)

This gives the spirits the oak sage skill = to your oak sage skill (they don't use it, it simply tells them how high your oak sage skill level is so it can synergise their aura)





========================================================
If you are adding a data folder as a client update (just link to a data folder with the texts for simplicity and the dl would only be 2-3 MBish) you could also add it to the skill description very easily, if not disregard the stuff below.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SkillDesc.txt and search for heart of wolverine and spirit of barbs
scroll along to dsc2line1 column and set it to 2 (this displays string 1, the calculation, then string 2)
in the column next to that put: StrSkill42 (string for Max Health)
in the column next to that put: StrSkill23 (string for Percent)
in the column next to that put: skill('Oak Sage'.accr)

Do the same for SoB. This is all just description stuff, you could leave it as a hidden bonus if you like.

If you want to show it as a synergy, then simply scroll along to dsc3line1 for both skills and set it to 40
in the column next to that add: Sksyn (string for "skillname" recieves bonuses from:")
in the next column, for HoW add: Skillname237 (string for HoW name) (for SoB add: Skillname247 (string for SoB name))
and the column next to that set to 2 (this is just a text color reference)

in dsc3line2 column set it to 63
in the column next to that add: Skillname227 (string for oak sage name)
in the column next to that add: Hpplev (string for health per level)
in the column next to that add 1 (1% per level)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:41 am 
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*tips hat*
thx, will give'r a whirl.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
I have a maxblock Windy and it was by no means easy

Yo how is your Druid geared? You have to invest in Dex for MB? How much life he got? I'd love to pick your brain a bit, since I feel mine is geared pretty well and is just missing charms and what not.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Idea, what about leaving it at 3% but giving HoW/SoB 1% hp buff per soft point in oak. That way those unused spirits may get some action and it aleviates the drop in % with a bigger party.

I really really like this idea

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:01 pm 

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@PureRage glad it's all cool. Again I do apologize. I can see how my original post did have a offensive undertone. Stating I lost respect for you etc. wasn't necessary and probably came out offensive but it was more so from frustration with Blue.
Looking forward to playing your mod though as it becomes clearly obvious there is no compromise or hope with Blue as he continues to run this mod down the shit drain.

Btw we all know Blue angrily reads every one of my posts. :lol:

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Last edited by Lee on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:15 pm 
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@PureRage Modding ff7 is generally adding new, higher res textures and changing combat. Vanilla ff7 has midi music(Ficedula made a plugin so you can set mp3), outdated graphics 640x480 (now full hd with opengl plugin) and well, it's way to easy... tho they changed hp/mp/dmg limits to 32000 but on few mods enemies hit for 30k (gelnika's super marlboro). Vanilla ff7 is all about getting a manipulate materia, manipulate bugs with big guard/birds with white wind and link counter matteries with mime. Boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:00 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
oh - incidentally, if it makes people feel better this thread has convinced me to make a Windy Druid as my first post-patch character. I always like playing the underdogs.


I missed this post anyone else care to see Blues postpatch windy Druid? Kind of like how you made a Barbarian with 6k AR and said "Barbs are great! Everythings fine!" lol

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:06 pm 

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um, wouldnt it be better if you(blue) tried a windy druid before the patch?! I mean if you dont play the build then you dont really know exactly how it will be affected... and then if it turns out that this in fact did kill the build, wouldnt it be better to find this out BEFORE the patch comes out?

I have no idea how this will affect things tbh. I did write earlier that I thought this would hurt melee builds a huge amount, even though this might still be the case, I'd just like to say that I have no idea how this shit will turn out. I just hope you've tested this shit out from a hc point of view aswell :P

I didnt play HU last season so I cant really compare how things are compared to last season, but seeing as valor and armageddon are really OP and you created them...and melee hasnt been able to touch any bosses in hell this season so far(without max amp) and that was your doing too, I just think that you should really consider that all you do isnt always balanced.
So I just hope you test this thoroughly.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:54 pm 

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Edit.

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Last edited by Lee on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:02 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
Yo how is your Druid geared? You have to invest in Dex for MB? How much life he got? I'd love to pick your brain a bit, since I feel mine is geared pretty well and is just missing charms and what not.


SS of Guinness. To be honest, he's not exactly my Druid per say, I stole him from Nazgul after Naz quit playing, and then finished leveling / gearing him.
He's pretty much just missing Heart and Dur/Dia/Baal Shards. Other charms are mainly life & resist charms (best charmed character I have) because his resists are terrible without them. Also got quite a few FHR/resist charms. Only a couple Res/Dex charms.
He hits the best, feasible FHR bp (152%, 5fpa), the best faster block rate you can hit (86%, 5fpa) and the last FCR bp (163%).
Ravenlore has 3x Pestilence Eyes in there and I also have a Ko rune in his Horizon's.
Pick taken w/ level 49 Oak and level 47 BO, inb4 Windy Druids are fine because Guinness is amazing.

Image


EDIT: Oh yeah, base dexterity by the way. So ~155 from gear like a boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:11 am 

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I guess i'll say this. As much as I don't Blue and I know he dislikes me as well. Someone made a good point to me earlier today that he is the only real person who can continue to Mod. Soulmancer had quit and everything would have never changed. Despite how I feel about Blue now.. at least hes capable of making changes. But whatever. I still the same about Oak etc. just can't do much about it. Blue has be the one to change but all in all looking forward to the patch anyway.. guess I'll end with that. He has good intentions. You can't take that away from him. He's just stubborn so whatever.. let's see how the patch unravels.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:11 am 
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So how to build a good summoner druid now? I mean summons to do damage, let's say a2 def(thorns) aura merc.
1)There are fewer summons that was before but damage wasn't increased, change was to nerf them as a wall of unkillable summons.
2)You can go HoW to boost their damage/def but they're dying without oak because ele damage hurts them the most. That leaves you with low hp too.
3)Skills probably 60 main summons, 2-3 vines, 40 spirits + sob and bear/lycan to boost def/hp I presume? HoW first? Or skip oak and go lycan?
How about changing that they're getting more res per lvl? On hell they start -60 and get 2res per lvl capped 66? So 6% res WOW(are they affected by -120 hell res?)
And global damage boost like PureRage said. Lower ai to 1, inc base damage by 50% (min/max damage in skill.txt) it's 4-8 8-12 and 32-64 for wolfs/bear. Damage that low is hardly multiplied with auras. I believe ai buff should be here. 7 for summons is still too high.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:18 am 
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good points for a later patch - too much new stuff to add in to this patch, unless you want a one month delay. I already have my hands full.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:24 am 
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The oak code you provided won't do the trick PureRage - that just sets Oak to be a synergy and that isn't desirable, the desirable path would be to have the skill inherently provide a %life boost.

the Difference:
lvl20 HoW with lvl1 oak sage = 1% life
lvl1 HoW with lvl20 oak sage = 20% life

Therefore, why max HoW unless you were going to already?

Needs to be directly tied to points in HoW or SoB to be a productive adjustment.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:09 am 
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if you want it to get 1% per level, simply change the "skill('Oak Sage'.accr)" to lvl on each of the auras. Thats 1% per level in the skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
He's pretty much just missing Heart and Dur/Dia/Baal Shards. Other charms are mainly life & resist charms (best charmed character I have) because his resists are terrible without them. Also got quite a few FHR/resist charms. Only a couple Res/Dex charms.
He hits the best, feasible FHR bp (152%, 5fpa), the best faster block rate you can hit (86%, 5fpa) and the last FCR bp (163%).
Ravenlore has 3x Pestilence Eyes in there and I also have a Ko rune in his Horizon's.
Pick taken w/ level 49 Oak and level 47 BO, inb4 Windy Druids are fine because Guinness is amazing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, base dexterity by the way. So ~155 from gear like a boss.


FTW I'm assuming he's wearing Enigma? Res is a bitch when your gloves/wep/armor/belt/boots don't have any. I chose to stick res in my helm and fill my inventory with lifers, but my block is like 30%. Looks like your set up works much better ^^.
What'd you stick in his HHG? 2 Ame's?

EDIT:

Verb wrote:
um, wouldnt it be better if you(blue) tried a windy druid before the patch?

lol I was actually going to say that ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:48 am 
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I see no problem with the oak nerf, why does a druid need 10k more life than my necro, doesent he have wolves and bear as meat shields?

IMO SOB > Oak for most of the game anyways, the sad part is when i ask druids to run SOB they say "what is that?" and then they say that they done have it.

you are not losing that much life because the % is based only off ur base life which is ~2k, so your only losing 1.6k after the nerf, game breaking? no. a change? yes.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:48 pm 
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PmP wrote:
I see no problem with the oak nerf, why does a druid need 10k more life than my necro, doesent he have wolves and bear as meat shields?


Because Druids are the only one affected by an Oak nerf? :roll:
You do realize an unshifted Druid will have ~ the same life as a Necromancer, as they gain the same life per vita and the same HP per level, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:05 pm 

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PmP clearly you haven't read anything in this topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:42 pm 
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why is it undesirable to have oak as a synergy exactly? the point was that you could have two spirits up in a party so that the % lost is less when you are in a larger party. Who cares if you max HoW or not the point is that somebody would actually be running it.
Making it so that you need hard point in HoW or SoB to get a % life increase will do nothing positive. Nobody will max them outside of the HoW fury druid which are few and far between. Unless you are getting some kind of comparable % boost from maxing one of the other spirits (which shouldnt happen) ppl would max oak first.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:35 pm 

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PmP wrote:
I see no problem with the oak nerf, why does a druid need 10k more life than my necro, doesent he have wolves and bear as meat shields?

IMO SOB > Oak for most of the game anyways, the sad part is when i ask druids to run SOB they say "what is that?" and then they say that they done have it.

you are not losing that much life because the % is based only off ur base life which is ~2k, so your only losing 1.6k after the nerf, game breaking? no. a change? yes.


First of, necros have blades and just one point the golems and you got 4 more tanks(or meat shields as you call it).

Second, if the oak gets nerfed then the necros hp gets lowered aswell. I mean they're both affected by the same oak. Unless you're comparing them seperatly wich is just stupid since they're two entirely different classes that provide different buffs/debuffs for the party and so on.

And you dont seem to have played a lot of hc on HU. Losing about 2k hp could mean the difference between dead and alive.
Maybe this isnt as a big of a concern for everyone but I sure as hell know that I'd lose a lot more chars if they had 2k less hp then now.
I mean you dont have to make it even harder then it already is... sc isnt hard, with the exception of the last couple of bosses maybe. But considering you can just run back to your corpse and try again....not that hard. So the oak nerf might not affect sc that much but it will affect hc a lot I bet.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:53 pm 
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the hc argument is a dead one since in the readme i believe it still says that hc is not recommended.
On a semi related note, is there anyway to 'flag' a character after it has died once? like is there a difference between a char that has never died and a char that has?

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:09 am 
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You can get to hit recovery once you lose 1/12 of your total hp. Less hp = more often hit recovery = more griding charms = less usability of a build.

Quote:
IMO SOB > Oak for most of the game anyways, the sad part is when i ask druids to run SOB they say "what is that?" and then they say that they done have it.
haha, well... huh
Quote:
I see no problem with the oak nerf, why does a druid need 10k more life than my necro, doesent he have wolves and bear as meat shields?
Which necro? Bone's teeth have 2-3screen range (almost the same as multiarrow) and poison necs don't exist anymore as they cant get near bosses with all life buffs. Druid need more life as he must get near dudes, have worse fcr/fhr/all % breakpoints, wolves are LOL if you don't spam them all the time. Only viable 1 point summon is a bear and still you must recast him alot. All necs builds are 60 point while Druids 80 (summoners being 60), you can't max one summon on druid and you can max golem mast on nec for 4 good tanks + dk with 20k hp (0 CD)


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:11 pm 

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my two cents........i bet you fuckers who never even try hc are the guys who wore helmets while riding there trikes as kids............


To quote pious ............difference between hc and sc...................BALLS!!!


That being said :-)

Me likes playing wind druid, lets please not kill my next one before hes born.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:58 am 
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Quote:
i bet you fuckers who never even try hc are the guys who wore helmets while riding there trikes as kids


Don't knock 95% of the playerbase for not playing HC. Some people just don't want to have the little time they have to play get wasted because of one mistake...
Playing HC don't make you better than a SC player. Infact alot of the time, HC players are worse because they don't get as much practice on the really tricky stuff, they are too scared of getting rip'd to actualy help the team or they just don't know what they are doing due to lack of experiece.

99% of the best HC players started on SC and many still prefer SC due to the bigger trading economy.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:55 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
i bet you fuckers who never even try hc are the guys who wore helmets while riding there trikes as kids


Don't knock 95% of the playerbase for not playing HC. Some people just don't want to have the little time they have to play get wasted because of one mistake...
Playing HC don't make you better than a SC player. Infact alot of the time, HC players are worse because they don't get as much practice on the really tricky stuff, they are too scared of getting rip'd to actualy help the team or they just don't know what they are doing due to lack of experiece.

99% of the best HC players started on SC and many still prefer SC due to the bigger trading economy.


Amen to that brother! Exactly how i feel when HC players get macho.

Being afraid of death/losing months of work doesnt mean you dont have balls by any length! Time is the main issue i believe

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:19 pm 

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There is a huge difference between SC and HC in terms of having "balls." It's like someone who says they won't play Rugby because he could suffer a life long injury. While that's true.. you can suffer a 'life long' injury anywhere at any time.

The same concept can apply to HC. On SC you can lose very valuable gear if the game crashes. You can't play volleyball and tell a rugby player you got balls. Wtf do you think he's going to say to you? Not playing HC because of the risk = you don't have balls. Don't take it as an insult. It's just what it is. The same concept applies for anything in life. Video game, real life, or however you want to use it. The concept of having "balls" is always the same.

People who are afraid of risk = don't have balls. People who play with risk = have balls.

Simple facts. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
PmP wrote:
I see no problem with the oak nerf, why does a druid need 10k more life than my necro, doesent he have wolves and bear as meat shields?


Because Druids are the only one affected by an Oak nerf? :roll:
You do realize an unshifted Druid will have ~ the same life as a Necromancer, as they gain the same life per vita and the same HP per level, right?


an unshifted druid will have the same life as a necromancer if hes not using oak... if you dont use oak then why cry over a nerf? If a unshifted druid has the same life as a necro, they will have plenty of life, yet they get oak, therefore they will have more life than a necromancer. so how does a necro have the same life as an unshifted druid? i fail to see this. If they did have the same life, why does the necro/sorce/assassin/barb/zon/merc ect perform well without a druid in the party and well without oak?

Yes oak will affect other chars, but people dont play the game with oak 24/7. Oak is not leaving, just being weakened.

Lee wrote:
PmP clearly you haven't read anything in this topic.


tell me why a druid needs xxx more life than everyone else, and why is it such a big deal to lose some of that xxx more life? Druids will still have oak, it will still add tons of life, why are people crying over this? What do you do when u are not playing with a druid, do you wait for a druid to come play?

why does a druid need tons of life? the druid is not losing oak, and will still have tons of life. you dont have to play with a druid to play this game, so why does nerfing oak create so many tears?

"Second, if the oak gets nerfed then the necros hp gets lowered aswell."
how? my necro does not use a lvl 40+ oak? i think he will still have 4050 life and be unaffected by this nerf.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Quote:
"Second, if the oak gets nerfed then the necros hp gets lowered aswell."
how? my necro does not use a lvl 40+ oak? i think he will still have 4050 life and be unaffected by this nerf.
Does your nec get 6yards from a boss to deal damage? It's like you're completely misunderstood what's happening here. It's like saying that tank barb can have 4k hp and will be ok. Windy druids doesn't stay 1 screen away and do damage.

Besides oak will be 3% no matter what so /care. Just need to avoid them. Good I haven't put anything into Lore, time to remake a fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
"Second, if the oak gets nerfed then the necros hp gets lowered aswell."
how? my necro does not use a lvl 40+ oak? i think he will still have 4050 life and be unaffected by this nerf.
Does your nec get 6yards from a boss to deal damage? It's like you're completely misunderstood what's happening here. It's like saying that tank barb can have 4k hp and will be ok. Windy druids doesn't stay 1 screen away and do damage.

Besides oak will be 3% no matter what so /care. Just need to avoid them. Good I haven't put anything into Lore, time to remake a fury.


Arctic blast range >>>>>>> everything but inferno. why would u make a phys damage caster when all phys damage is broke atm? Arctic blast does tons of damage and has the greatest range.

oak nerf will not ruin druids, so why cry about it?


get on so i can give u ur harpoon


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Quote:
why would u make a phys damage caster when all phys damage is broke atm? Arctic blast does tons of damage and has the greatest range.
Sure thing. I'm redoing all my chars to psn ASAP.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
why would u make a phys damage caster when all phys damage is broke atm? Arctic blast does tons of damage and has the greatest range.
Sure thing. I'm redoing all my chars to psn ASAP.


psn, fire, cold, magic, light or bust


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:12 pm 
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95% of the time. I have Oak, either thru wisp natures or a druid.... I have oak.... Arctic Blast is also a buggy piece of crap. Sure it's safe but bosses heal when the only damage source is arctic blast. It deals 1/3 of the listed damage and most bosses aren't gonna stand still and let you Arctic blast them from max range. Not everyone builds characters for only damage. All of my characters could hit a lot more damage but what good is that damage if I get shit on because I have 7k life?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:22 pm 
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LockDown wrote:
95% of the time. I have Oak, either thru wisp natures or a druid.... I have oak.... Arctic Blast is also a buggy piece of crap. Sure it's safe but bosses heal when the only damage source is arctic blast. It deals 1/3 of the listed damage and most bosses aren't gonna stand still and let you Arctic blast them from max range. Not everyone builds characters for only damage. All of my characters could hit a lot more damage but what good is that damage if I get shit on because I have 7k life?


i have 4k life and i dont get shit on. if your getting shit on then you are doing something wrong.

i use SOB over oak on wisp

arctic blast may do 1/3 of listed damage but 1/3 of 300k is amazing damage. Its a display error and has 0 impact on the game. it is not buggy as it does the correct amount of damage, which you can see when killing things, but when displayed the damage is not calculated the way you want it. It does that same damage, but maybe in 3 seconds. once again, this display has 0 impact on the game.

bosses stand still vs a tank, which can do damage which prevents heal. tanks can be other players, summons, any character with a healer merc or healer pally. does your druid even use bear and wolves???

you will still have oak and it will work well. Just not as well.

still see 0 evidence that an oak nerf will be game breaking, it never will be. Even if oak gives mana over life the game is still playable.

even if oak was removed the game is still playable.

ive cleared all of los and ros without a druid, and without oak, the game is playable without oak. Granted I never did this on hardcore, but on the same time I dident make my characters specifically for los.

TL DR: Oak will not break the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Truly amazing. Why do you even say that your necro have 4k hp and he doesn't need an oak? If he'd needed an oak then he would have had one added to his skills.Discussion is about oak that's needed for some builds, teeth necro never needed any life buffs, never. No nec cried about their amp nerf because they don't use it... and now melee is broken.
Quote:
still see 0 evidence that an oak nerf will be game breaking, it never will be. Even if oak gives mana over life the game is still playable.

even if oak was removed the game is still playable.
But what's the point of reducing vita on windy/summoners? Blue wants to nerf it so whole party has less hp = gear toward pdr/mdr/%hp/abs and you're saying that sob > oak. Amazing. And your 4k necro is like 48lvl before norm diablo fight?
Quote:
bosses stand still vs a tank, which can do damage which prevents heal. tanks can be other players, summons, any character with a healer merc or healer pally. does your druid even use bear and wolves???

1)PMH works only with physical hit and only from chars
2)Boss heal is something different than normal heal. PMH is ok vs darkness blades or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:11 pm 
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PmP wrote:
still see 0 evidence that an oak nerf will be game breaking, it never will be. Even if oak gives mana over life the game is still playable.

even if oak was removed the game is still playable.

ive cleared all of los and ros without a druid, and without oak, the game is playable without oak. Granted I never did this on hardcore, but on the same time I dident make my characters specifically for los.

TL DR: Oak will not break the game.


And I've seen absolutely no shred of evidence supporting or even explaining why the Oak nerf is warranted. Outside of "Herp derp, I think it be good change 4 mod", there has been no counter-arguments as to why this nerf actually needs to be put into place.
The only "evidence" I've seen claiming Oak nerf is fine is you stating Druids have more life than Necromancers, except they don't. This is a team-based mod, and it was originally balanced with the fact you'd be playing with a balanced team. Have you even done the harder bosses untwinked with no Oak? Sure, characters can roll around with no Oak once they're geared out and you've leeched through the harder bosses, but do try Hell Mephisto untwinked without Oak and get back to me.

No one is claiming the Oak nerf will break the game. It would take insane nerfing to make the game unplayable on SC (Take Melee, nerfed from 4-5 different angles).
The fact is that the Oak nerf hardly affects already amazing builds that rape Hell's Unleashed while it kicks builds that already suck and are struggling to be viable. Why implement a change that hardly hurts already dominating builds, but seriously affects already shitty builds?

Was it not enough that this current patch wiped 10+ builds out of playability? Do we need to add another 10 to that so everyone can play long range caster + blade bitch?

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:48 pm 

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PmP wrote:
Abominae wrote:
PmP wrote:
I see no problem with the oak nerf, why does a druid need 10k more life than my necro, doesent he have wolves and bear as meat shields?


Because Druids are the only one affected by an Oak nerf? :roll:
You do realize an unshifted Druid will have ~ the same life as a Necromancer, as they gain the same life per vita and the same HP per level, right?


an unshifted druid will have the same life as a necromancer if hes not using oak... if you dont use oak then why cry over a nerf? If a unshifted druid has the same life as a necro, they will have plenty of life, yet they get oak, therefore they will have more life than a necromancer. so how does a necro have the same life as an unshifted druid? i fail to see this. If they did have the same life, why does the necro/sorce/assassin/barb/zon/merc ect perform well without a druid in the party and well without oak?

Yes oak will affect other chars, but people dont play the game with oak 24/7. Oak is not leaving, just being weakened.

Lee wrote:
PmP clearly you haven't read anything in this topic.


tell me why a druid needs xxx more life than everyone else, and why is it such a big deal to lose some of that xxx more life? Druids will still have oak, it will still add tons of life, why are people crying over this? What do you do when u are not playing with a druid, do you wait for a druid to come play?

why does a druid need tons of life? the druid is not losing oak, and will still have tons of life. you dont have to play with a druid to play this game, so why does nerfing oak create so many tears?

"Second, if the oak gets nerfed then the necros hp gets lowered aswell."
how? my necro does not use a lvl 40+ oak? i think he will still have 4050 life and be unaffected by this nerf.


What are you babbling about? You make no sense at all. It's people like you that diminish the reputation of actually good SC players like Steel. You make NO SENSE.

The oak nerf can't be rationalized into a change that effects Druids only. Oak has been a VITAL party skill in HU since the beginning. I want to see how long you live against bosses on a necro without Oak or Bo. I'd be honestly amazed to see how long you'd last Baals Throne, or against any boss in Hell.

HU is a party based game. Soloing isn't recommended for most areas and usually results in easy deaths in the most difficult areas. Playing with a druid who has Oak is crucial in these areas.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:14 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
PmP wrote:
still see 0 evidence that an oak nerf will be game breaking, it never will be. Even if oak gives mana over life the game is still playable.

even if oak was removed the game is still playable.

ive cleared all of los and ros without a druid, and without oak, the game is playable without oak. Granted I never did this on hardcore, but on the same time I dident make my characters specifically for los.

TL DR: Oak will not break the game.


And I've seen absolutely no shred of evidence supporting or even explaining why the Oak nerf is warranted. Outside of "Herp derp, I think it be good change 4 mod", there has been no counter-arguments as to why this nerf actually needs to be put into place.
The only "evidence" I've seen claiming Oak nerf is fine is you stating Druids have more life than Necromancers, except they don't. This is a team-based mod, and it was originally balanced with the fact you'd be playing with a balanced team. Have you even done the harder bosses untwinked with no Oak? Sure, characters can roll around with no Oak once they're geared out and you've leeched through the harder bosses, but do try Hell Mephisto untwinked without Oak and get back to me.

No one is claiming the Oak nerf will break the game. It would take insane nerfing to make the game unplayable on SC (Take Melee, nerfed from 4-5 different angles).
The fact is that the Oak nerf hardly affects already amazing builds that rape Hell's Unleashed while it kicks builds that already suck and are struggling to be viable. Why implement a change that hardly hurts already dominating builds, but seriously affects already shitty builds?

Was it not enough that this current patch wiped 10+ builds out of playability? Do we need to add another 10 to that so everyone can play long range caster + blade bitch?



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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:50 pm 
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The only argument from PmP I can decipher is "It doesn't affect possibly the best trash clearing build in the game. Why make a big deal out of it?" It cripples a lot more builds than it is supposedly helping. I have a poison zon who I use 45% of the time I play. I actually prefer to use my Pally and my bowzon and impalezon are turning out to be just as fun. A Necro =/= A Druid. A Bone Necro can clear the screen before a lot of builds could. Of course you can live with 4k health when clearing trash it never gets close to you while other builds (namely melee which has already been nerfed to shit.) have to be in range of the monsters and do get hit. That's why I get shit on with anything under 10k Health I don't stand 3-4 screens away and spam decoy or blades while the highest damage zon kills the boss.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:40 pm 
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So i would like to point out, I have never argued that oak needed a nerf, I am just arguing that it is not a big deal and does not deserve all of your tears for.

I would also like to point out that calling me names, insulting me, comparing me to others, ect, are NOT valid arguments to a conversation. I do not need your ad hominem arguments, and to be honest, they make you sound stupid and show that you do not have a proper education. It is childish and uncalled for. If you are unable to make logical arguments, please dont post at all.

Quote:
The oak nerf can't be rationalized into a change that effects Druids only.


Who ever said oak does not raise the life of party members? I stated that other characters can play the game without an oak, making it not required, thus if it is completely removed (image a super nerf) YOU CAN STILL PLAY THE GAME. The game is NOT broken...

Quote:
Oak has been a VITAL party skill in HU since the beginning.


Yeah its helpful, but it is no where near vital, if it were vital, you could not progress the game without oak, and therefore without a druid. That is what you are saying. Maybe this is why i see millions of games called "Act 2 need oak" btw, that was sarcasm.

Oak is not leaving, it will still be here. It will still add tons of life, just not as much as it used to.

Quote:
I want to see how long you live against bosses on a necro without Oak or Bo. I'd be honestly amazed to see how long you'd last Baals Throne, or against any boss in Hell.


I dont use oak, and i have killed hell baal with a barb, necro, pally, sorce and zon. As for my necro, I am not standing toe to toe with bosses and dieing. I stand behind summons, party, bone armor and merc, and live fine. without oak. and most of the time without potions. If I am fighting a boss, I will run, tele, and do anything to avoid damage. I am not going to attempt to tank with a necromancer...

Quote:
HU is a party based game. Soloing isn't recommended for most areas and usually results in easy deaths in the most difficult areas. Playing with a druid who has Oak is crucial in these areas.


once again, you do not need a druid with oak to kill anything in this game, therefore it is not vital. I do not play with a druid, and i have cleared this whole game. every boss, every monster, no druid. Would a druid help? yeah, is it NOT "vital, crucial, required" at all.

TL DR - Once again, if oak were removed, it would not break the game. oak is not required to play this game. therefore a nerf to oak is not gamebreaking. On top of that, oak is still in the game, and it still adds tons of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:10 pm 

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PmP wrote:
So i would like to point out, I have never argued that oak needed a nerf, I am just arguing that it is not a big deal and does not deserve all of your tears for.

I would also like to point out that calling me names, insulting me, comparing me to others, ect, are NOT valid arguments to a conversation. I do not need your ad hominem arguments, and to be honest, they make you sound stupid and show that you do not have a proper education. It is childish and uncalled for. If you are unable to make logical arguments, please dont post at all.

Quote:
The oak nerf can't be rationalized into a change that effects Druids only.


Who ever said oak does not raise the life of party members? I stated that other characters can play the game without an oak, making it not required, thus if it is completely removed (image a super nerf) YOU CAN STILL PLAY THE GAME. The game is NOT broken...

Quote:
Oak has been a VITAL party skill in HU since the beginning.


Yeah its helpful, but it is no where near vital, if it were vital, you could not progress the game without oak, and therefore without a druid. That is what you are saying. Maybe this is why i see millions of games called "Act 2 need oak" btw, that was sarcasm.

Oak is not leaving, it will still be here. It will still add tons of life, just not as much as it used to.

Quote:
I want to see how long you live against bosses on a necro without Oak or Bo. I'd be honestly amazed to see how long you'd last Baals Throne, or against any boss in Hell.


I dont use oak, and i have killed hell baal with a barb, necro, pally, sorce and zon. As for my necro, I am not standing toe to toe with bosses and dieing. I stand behind summons, party, bone armor and merc, and live fine. without oak. and most of the time without potions. If I am fighting a boss, I will run, tele, and do anything to avoid damage. I am not going to attempt to tank with a necromancer...

Quote:
HU is a party based game. Soloing isn't recommended for most areas and usually results in easy deaths in the most difficult areas. Playing with a druid who has Oak is crucial in these areas.


once again, you do not need a druid with oak to kill anything in this game, therefore it is not vital. I do not play with a druid, and i have cleared this whole game. every boss, every monster, no druid. Would a druid help? yeah, is it NOT "vital, crucial, required" at all.

TL DR - Once again, if oak were removed, it would not break the game. oak is not required to play this game. therefore a nerf to oak is not gamebreaking. On top of that, oak is still in the game, and it still adds tons of life.


I have no interest in arguing with someone who is incapable of forming a simple logical argument here. Still.. I am pondering WTF are you TALKING about? You don't need Oak in the game for what build? Help us understand here what your trying to say because I FAIL to understand YOUR point other then the sheer stupidity in it. I feel like I'm arguing with a two year old who is obsessed with Wolverine in X-Men because he can't die and so wolverine doesn't need the rest of the x-men or something retarded of that nature.

What are these marvelous builds you are keeping secret from us? I want to see how long you'd last on HC just of curiousity because going off what you say.. you are more skilled than the best HC players here.. who ironically happen to the best most skilled and knowledgeable players in the game.

You can still play the game.. sure you can. You can play the game without oak. You can still theoretically play the game no matter how fucked up it is. What's your point?! You don't think we are NOT aware of that?

The fact of the matter is.. nerfing oak cripples already crippled builds that have been mentioned in the post. Nerfing oak does nothing POSITIVE for the game and by all means HAS NO LOGICAL reasoning behind it.

We could also cut your teeth necs damage in half and guess what? It's still playable. The game is still playable, right? That's how STUPID your reasoning is. If you can't understand why I'm annoyed by YOU then that analogy should sum it up and I think most would agree with me here.

As far as Oak NOT being vital again.. back to my point. You are talking about 1-2 over powered builds that can suffice and solo the entire game without Oak and on top of that they'd have to be FULLY twinked. I still honestly doubt you on every level possible. Again.. I say.. based on PmP's reasoning he is probably the most skilled HC player on here and in the world of D2. LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:13 pm 
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All of your arguments have centered around your Necro and how it plays through the game. Blades and the trash clearing skills of a Necro don't need a life buff. Now we look at this from the prospective of a melee character or a nado druid or any other character who can't stand behind everything or re-castable tanks to contribute to the party. They have to eat the counters from the rest of the party and from what they do. All this nerf does is knock another set of builds out from rotation. It isn't needed nor warranted and came from nowhere. I believe the main purpose of this topic has been to gleam some sort of rhyme or reason for this nerf. (None has been forthcoming.)
Almost none of this has been tears it's been frustration over how the last patch melee got boned because "no one spoke out" against the nerfs. Now when we do speak out we are largely ignored and deemed as fools who have no idea how to balance a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:27 pm 

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+1 LockDown

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:05 am 
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Quote:
once again, you do not need a druid with oak to kill anything in this game, therefore it is not vital. I do not play with a druid, and i have cleared this whole game. every boss, every monster, no druid.
So mag res/abs on bosses is ok too I guess :roll:. Or are you talking about your psn zon...hey another char that can cast decoy and spam plague. We knew about psn zons/meteo sorcs with blades clearing every act after first 3 weeks(no extra gear, running in rare items). Now you're trying to convince us you're that skilled that you don't need any life buff on these builds.

Abominae already told this: This change won't affect builds that already are OP and don't need any lifebuffs like blades bitch, psn zons but will affect every close-mid chars.
And yeah, I saw that 101 fire druid dying a lot. Guess what... close combat and 1lvl oak... Ask LockDown how fire druids without maxed oak perform on baal runs standing in corner with their 150k dps bcos anything tear them to pieces.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:34 am 
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We run full baal games little fire druids have to sit in the corner while I kill everything with decoy and plague spam. Only fire druid I've seen capable of taking any kind of damage is Steel's (without massive Juving).

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:43 am 
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@ lee I would also like to point out that calling me names, insulting me, comparing me to others, ect, are NOT valid arguments to a conversation. I do not need your ad hominem arguments, and to be honest, they make you sound stupid and show that you do not have a proper education. It is childish and uncalled for. If you are unable to make logical arguments, please dont post at all.

@ lockdown/steel I never used any builds in examples, the reason the necro got pulled in was for a life comparison 2 pages ago, on a different thought process. I have never mentioned a poison zon. Dont make this complicated.

the bottom line is oak is not required to clear any part of the game, and a nerf is not game breaking. Argue against that.

once again, for those who read out of context. oak is not required to clear any part of the game, therefore a nerf is not game breaking. - I am not citing any OP builds, I am not mentioning other mechanics.

My argument is simple. If you can disprove it with reason, I can change my mind.

Because unlike others, I am not glued to my beliefs, I simply look at the issue on an objective matter, look at facts, and make conclusions on this. - Im sorry, X-men is not related to a mod for a 10 year old video game.

I have never said that oak should be nerfed, I agree with you on this, I dont care about oak. My argument is simple that oak nerf will not be game breaking. Once again, oak will still be around and will still grant tons of hp.


@steel that druid thats hiding in a corner for 1% of the game, does he have any dr, pdr, mdr, stacked res, sorb, is he using summons? I bet hes using the cookie cutter build that all these cryers are using - max damage output. How can u expect your character to be a tank with glass cannon gear? sounds like a failed build at that point.

IF you are expecting oak to make you invincible, and not die, then oak IS op and needs to be nerfed.

Please do not bring any more OP builds, fail builds who cant tank anything because they have 10 perfect facets in their gear and no charms in inventory, and please, dont bring personal attacks or X-men to the conversation.

Oak is not required to clear any part of the game. - Prove this wrong, otherwise the idea that oak nerf is game breaking is wrong. Release the patch, if it is bad, it can easily be reverted...


Last edited by PmP on Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:43 am 
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LockDown wrote:
We run full baal games little fire druids have to sit in the corner while I kill everything with decoy and plague spam. Only fire druid I've seen capable of taking any kind of damage is Steel's (without massive Juving).


remake the druid. fail build.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:01 am 
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Quote:
@steel that druid thats hiding in a corner for 1% of the game, does he have any dr, pdr, mdr, stacked res, sorb, is he using summons? I bet hes using the cookie cutter build that all these cryers are using - max damage output. How can u expect your character to be a tank with glass cannon gear? sounds like a failed build at that point.
I was referring to that 101lvl fire druids. Thought you were friends or something as you spoke for him why he didn't max oak etc. Funny as you summed him up - "cookie cutter build that all these cryers are using - max damage output." Yes. I saw him dying in wsk, not saying about cleft or castle.
My druid is fine. 20 oak, 79 fire, all summons, tanks np.
But you're clueless you don't even know who is who. I wait for you saying that I copied someones build :-).
Quote:
IF you are expecting oak to make you invincible, and not die, then oak IS op and needs to be nerfed.

Please do not bring any more OP builds, fail builds who cant tank anything because they have 10 perfect facets in their gear and no charms in inventory, and please, dont bring personal attacks or X-men to the conversation.
X-men!

And yeah. It's not about firedruids. They won't be affected by this change. Lycan's getting extra 3% so my druid will have 250% lycan. Used that example so you could realize how oak is necessary on close combat class. And pls stop saying bullshit about pdr/mdr on hell baal/los. I use max pdr on barb and he still is getting hit like 3k from LoS seraphs/zerkers/wyrms(x4). Same with summons. You're fire/cold druid not a summoner. I used summons only vs fire immune and 1st light immune dude as he's sick with his cb spam but only when there's other char able to kill him, if not then I use firestorm instead of casting summons. Doing a char that on boss fights cast 1lvl wolfs isn't something we're aiming for


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:42 am 
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Steel wrote:
X-men!

And yeah. It's not about firedruids. They won't be affected by this change. Lycan's getting extra 3% so my druid will have 250% lycan. Used that example so you could realize how oak is necessary on close combat class. And pls stop saying bullshit about pdr/mdr on hell baal/los. I use max pdr on barb and he still is getting hit like 3k from LoS seraphs/zerkers/wyrms(x4). Same with summons. You're fire/cold druid not a summoner. I used summons only vs fire immune and 1st light immune dude as he's sick with his cb spam but only when there's other char able to kill him, if not then I use firestorm instead of casting summons. Doing a char that on boss fights cast 1lvl wolfs isn't something we're aiming for


barbs, windy druids - any char that does phys damage at close range is fubared atm.

pdr/mdr makes u practically invincible norm, nm and with lpk, you are invincible 95% in hell, and summons help take damage. The key to surviving at los/ baal is to avoid damage rather than reducing it, summons help with that. So does enigma and lust.

Oak is not required, and is not game breaking if removed/nerfed. Please release the patch. if still QQ it can be changed just to stop the QQ, but never because it broke the game.

Steel wrote:
I was referring to that 101lvl fire druids. Thought you were friends or something as you spoke for him why he didn't max oak etc. Funny as you summed him up - "cookie cutter build that all these cryers are using - max damage output." Yes. I saw him dying in wsk, not saying about cleft or castle.
My druid is fine. 20 oak, 79 fire, all summons, tanks np.
But you're clueless you don't even know who is who. I wait for you saying that I copied someones build :-).


I know you are talking about wolf, I know he put 1 into oak, never argued why and as a result i know he has 10k life, that does not mean that I agree with his build. Hes a great guy, u should play with him some time. He can also run to and kill sammy in hell without dieing. kinda off topic tho.

I dont know your build, and I never said that u copied it somewhere, as you do half the damage as everyone else I am 99% sure u dident copy the other fire druids. 120k damage is worthless if you die all the time.

Once again, Oak is not required for any part of the game, therefore if it is removed/nerfed the game will not be broken. ALSO - Oak will still be in the game and will still grant tons of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:54 am 
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Quote:
The key to surviving at los/ baal is to avoid damage rather than reducing it, summons help with that. So does enigma and lust.
First you say something about pdr/mdr then about avoid dmg and casting summons. And who's killing then? You realize that wolfs die instantly, they can't even hold a los barb he kills them so fast... Ah druids cast summons and poisons/meteo sorcs kill... we all know that for few years now.
Quote:
barbs, windy druids - any char that does phys damage at close range is fubared atm.
Hope Blue took you as his adviser you know how to solve many problems. Anyone who says something is/will be broken should gtfo or rebuild their chars.
Quote:
I dont know your build, and I never said that u copied it somewhere, as you do half the damage as everyone else I am 99% sure u dident copy the other fire druids. 120k damage is worthless if you die all the time.
And pdr help you not to die... and do dmg... then again you must cast summons... and avoid dmg... but since firestorm is closecombat skill you cant avoid and use it...
Quote:
Hes a great guy, u should play with him some time. He can also run to and kill sammy in hell without dieing. kinda off topic tho.
He's truly my hero.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:14 am 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
The key to surviving at los/ baal is to avoid damage rather than reducing it, summons help with that. So does enigma and lust.
First you say something about pdr/mdr then about avoid dmg and casting summons. And who's killing then? You realize that wolfs die instantly, they can't even hold a los barb he kills them so fast... Ah druids cast summons and poisons/meteo sorcs kill... we all know that for few years now.
Quote:
barbs, windy druids - any char that does phys damage at close range is fubared atm.
Hope Blue took you as his adviser you know how to solve many problems. Anyone who says something is/will be broken should gtfo or rebuild their chars.
Quote:
I dont know your build, and I never said that u copied it somewhere, as you do half the damage as everyone else I am 99% sure u dident copy the other fire druids. 120k damage is worthless if you die all the time.
And pdr help you not to die... and do dmg... then again you must cast summons... and avoid dmg... but since firestorm is closecombat skill you cant avoid and use it...
Quote:
Hes a great guy, u should play with him some time. He can also run to and kill sammy in hell without dieing. kinda off topic tho.
He's truly my hero.


Once again, Oak is not required for any part of the game, therefore if it is removed/nerfed the game will not be broken. ALSO - Oak will still be in the game and will still grant tons of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Play a close range character. Then tell me we don't need a strong oak. Try tanking in a full game with anything less than 13-14k life and tell me we don't need the strong oak. Until you've actually DONE the things we've pointed out in this thread (LoS Baal runs Sammy and used a close range character) you won't understand why the nerf is game breaking.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:44 pm 
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PmP wrote:
Once again, Oak is not required for any part of the game, therefore if it is removed/nerfed the game will not be broken. ALSO - Oak will still be in the game and will still grant tons of life.


I could list a massive amount of things that are not required for any part of the game. Let's nerf those too, yeah?

The fact remains that no one has actually stated why the Oak nerf is warranted, which is understandable because its a terrible change.

You can argue all you want that Oak won't break the game, that's fine. That doesn't make it a good change or a warranted nerf. We could remove Druids from the game entirely and still find a way to play it, but that doesn't mean we should or it will balance the mod any further.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:29 pm 

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PmP wrote:
@ lee I would also like to point out that calling me names, insulting me, comparing me to others, ect, are NOT valid arguments to a conversation. I do not need your ad hominem arguments, and to be honest, they make you sound stupid and show that you do not have a proper education. It is childish and uncalled for. If you are unable to make logical arguments, please dont post at all.

@ lockdown/steel I never used any builds in examples, the reason the necro got pulled in was for a life comparison 2 pages ago, on a different thought process. I have never mentioned a poison zon. Dont make this complicated.

the bottom line is oak is not required to clear any part of the game, and a nerf is not game breaking. Argue against that.

once again, for those who read out of context. oak is not required to clear any part of the game, therefore a nerf is not game breaking. - I am not citing any OP builds, I am not mentioning other mechanics.

My argument is simple. If you can disprove it with reason, I can change my mind.

Because unlike others, I am not glued to my beliefs, I simply look at the issue on an objective matter, look at facts, and make conclusions on this. - Im sorry, X-men is not related to a mod for a 10 year old video game.

I have never said that oak should be nerfed, I agree with you on this, I dont care about oak. My argument is simple that oak nerf will not be game breaking. Once again, oak will still be around and will still grant tons of hp.


@steel that druid thats hiding in a corner for 1% of the game, does he have any dr, pdr, mdr, stacked res, sorb, is he using summons? I bet hes using the cookie cutter build that all these cryers are using - max damage output. How can u expect your character to be a tank with glass cannon gear? sounds like a failed build at that point.

IF you are expecting oak to make you invincible, and not die, then oak IS op and needs to be nerfed.

Please do not bring any more OP builds, fail builds who cant tank anything because they have 10 perfect facets in their gear and no charms in inventory, and please, dont bring personal attacks or X-men to the conversation.

Oak is not required to clear any part of the game. - Prove this wrong, otherwise the idea that oak nerf is game breaking is wrong. Release the patch, if it is bad, it can easily be reverted...


Instead of addressing any of my points.. you simply refute back to your original argument. I'm going to insult you all I want.. especially when you say stupid shit and talk straight out of your ass. You've made the most idiotic argument I have ever seen in my entire life playing HU.. which happens to be MUCH longer than you have ever played.

Your argument isn't even the nature of this discussion. You randomly pulled some sporadic stupid shit out of your ass and threw in the discussion. If you've missed the entire thread.. which we can all say you have. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHY NERFING OAK WOULD BE BAD FOR THE GAME AND THE BUILDS THAT WOULD SUFFER.

And then PmP comes a long. "WELL TECHNICALLY OAK ISN'T NEEDED FOR THE GAME, IT'S STILL PLAYABLE." The X-Men analogy perfectly fits the stupidity in your posts.

Read the last two paragraphs and think about it. What we are arguing about.. and what you come a long and say. Just wtf man. You sound very childish.

Ignoring my insults.. I proved your retarded ass wrong several times.. and instead of replying with a logical defense.. you start crying about my insults? Good way to avoid the real argument! Well what do you want from me? I feel your the biggest idiot on these forums. I have no respect for you, no desire to respectfully address all the dumb shit you say just to please you.

"once again, for those who read out of context. oak is not required to clear any part of the game, therefore a nerf is not game breaking. - I am not citing any OP builds, I am not mentioning other mechanics."

Just stfu. Stop posting here. Seriously.. no one has ever come close to pissing me off as much as you have just because of how dumb you are. I've never 'raged' on any kid here as much as I am doing to you.

What other 'mechanics' are you mentioning? That doesn't even fucking make sense! Wtf are you babbling about? A nerf to Oak would CRIPPLE already CRIPPLED builds for the 10th time. Do you know how to read? You keep repeating the same stupid shit. Make a decent logical argument and maybe you'll get a respectful response back.

Saying "OAK IS NOT GAME BREAKING" over and over is not going to get you any respect.

Still I have not heard a single build in which you claim can solo the game without Oak. STILL we are waiting.. because EVERY experienced player here btw who has played this game 10x longer than you will be able to give you an honest opinion about what you CLAIM to say. Over powered builds don't count.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:46 pm 
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He's obviously a troll. But I'm afraid that how this mod goes actually someone may find his stories for real.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:51 pm 

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Yeah I just think it's funny that someone has the balls to come into a thread where experienced intelligent players are having a discussion about the consequences of a Oak nerf and he comes along and says " OAK NERF NOT SO BAD, GAME STILL PLAYABLE!" It's like.. wtf?

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:03 pm 
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I've had more life on Vanilla then I've ever had on here in a 4v4 Duel with an Oak and Bo on my HDin. 37x 20 Lifers with base str and dex is a bitch....

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:09 pm 
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You can say that nerfing oak "is not game breaking" all you want. One can persevere through insane difficulty and the mod Aftermath would be an example of that... however, Aftermath by no means has a large community. It's very high difficulty level has driven away most players leaving a tiny community with a playing activity level that probably approaches "ghost town" server standards here.

The real question to ask is would nerfing oak affect difficulty in an enjoyable manner for the majority of the builds? Raising difficulty past the enjoyable point will only serve to damage the community. Having played a frostbite werebear myself this ladder I personally question if the oak should even be nerfed. My melee was pretty much reduced to a piece of baggage to be bloody rushed by the end of normal (despite twinks from others).

Such a change seriously does not bode well for a build that has to get into a boss's face well within counter range. I also agree such a change isn't going to do anything to stop the real OP builds. Explain to me how some poison zon/necro which has summons to redirect the damage away from them entirely is going to be actually seriously effected by a life nerf unless it is so severe it allows counters to OHKO them? Also builds such as meteor sorcs and poison zons do extremely high amounts of damage for the number of counters they trigger allowing them easy times at whittling down bosses as long as something handles the direct tanking (probably summons).

Also one final note directed at you Blue... While valuing your opinion over the opinion of others is entirely natural there is something you will have to consider as a modder of a mod with an already existing community. Other people are going to have their ideal for what's an enjoyable level of difficulty. If you choose to continue to completely ignore their opinions entirely in favor of your own opinions the existing community may very well wither.

I honestly doubt you actually intend to take the time to mass recruit fresh blood to replace or for that matter surpass those losses. If mod popularity is actually one of your concerns then you should seriously consider at least compromising some of the time. If it turns out the moderate compromise did not take a change far enough you can always take it further later without the risk of hurting the community with overly drastic changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:55 am 

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Baerk has the best post in this entire thread. He summed it all up and made it easy to understand. Props to Baerk.

+1

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:01 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:21 am
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Oak nerf will mainly affect elemental druids, making them slighlty less op.

Shapeshifting gets a buff:
Oak gives 25% hitpoints more per level and 5% hitpoints bonus per level (decreased to 3% per level)
Shapeshifting gives 25% base hitpoints bonus and 4% hitpoints per level (increased to 6% per lvl)

Also, dont forget bo, which is easy to obtain from hoto.

As far melee, a buff to amp/cb (ber 2cb?) would have been fine, but Im curious to see how the boss charm changes will work out 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Baerk has the best post in this entire thread. He summed it all up and made it easy to understand. Props to Baerk.

+1

this.
now we just need brevan in here to say the same thing and maybe blue can let an idea into his thick skull. if not-there is always INCEPTION!

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:44 am 
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I thought we're already on 3rd level... Must go deeper it seems.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:25 pm 

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Aren't you stuck forever on the 3rd level? :O

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to Oak Sage
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:45 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:47 am
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
na its on the forth lvl that you are stuck forever.
In the movie its: truck, hotel elevator, snowy mountain... iirc

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