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 Post subject: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:51 pm 
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MY FIX TO THE PZ ZON - swap the damage between disease spray and plague. if ur gonna do that much damage, u should at least have to go toe to toe with these bosses, if not, this will be a 1/2 to a 1/3 damage loss for PZ ZONS only, saving other psn builds and not requiring much modification. - the only problem to this (for me at least) is that it doesnt seem like disease spray works half the time ( i used to use this when i start to run outta javas)


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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:20 pm 
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no one likes?


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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:52 pm 

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Here's the problem with that. Show me a zon who can stand toe to toe with hell Baal and live without a healer spamming hb. In order to get enough dr/sorbs/res to do that they give up a ton of dmg. Also making DS hit for that dmg and using current 6 sec time period would equate to some massive dps numbers. Using my current psn zon, which is lvl 74, (my gear sucks) I'm at 100k plague over 8.1 sec. That's about 12k dps. Swapping it to DS without changing duration would net 17k dps. Unacceptable. While I agree some poison builds need a tweak, this isn't a good one.

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:04 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Here's the problem with that. Show me a zon who can stand toe to toe with hell Baal and live without a healer spamming hb. In order to get enough dr/sorbs/res to do that they give up a ton of dmg. Also making DS hit for that dmg and using current 6 sec time period would equate to some massive dps numbers. Using my current psn zon, which is lvl 74, (my gear sucks) I'm at 100k plague over 8.1 sec. That's about 12k dps. Swapping it to DS without changing duration would net 17k dps. Unacceptable. While I agree some poison builds need a tweak, this isn't a good one.


the idea is to make plague java do less damage and make disease spray do more damage. this will help ballance the fact that psn zons can basically solo any boss - i have 0 dr/sorbs but max res and i can solo hell baal.

zons dont go toe to toe with bosses, they kite, and take 0 damage wile dealing a ton. disease spray should be stronger as it increases ur risk, plague java should do less, as u can stand a screen away attack and run without getting hit...


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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:19 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Here's the problem with that. Show me a zon who can stand toe to toe with hell Baal and live without a healer spamming hb. In order to get enough dr/sorbs/res to do that they give up a ton of dmg. Also making DS hit for that dmg and using current 6 sec time period would equate to some massive dps numbers. Using my current psn zon, which is lvl 74, (my gear sucks) I'm at 100k plague over 8.1 sec. That's about 12k dps. Swapping it to DS without changing duration would net 17k dps. Unacceptable. While I agree some poison builds need a tweak, this isn't a good one.


Poison Necromancers deal with the same issues (being an extremely frail character having to pop into a bosses face), yet they're still a very strong build. They also do more damage than a poison zon and receive ~50% free pierce that can possibly break immunes.
You could actually argue Zons have better survivability than Necromancers given Strategy, Perfection, and better FHR breakpoints and waaay better FBR breakpoints.

Even if switching Disease Spray & Plague Javelin damage did increase a Poison Zon's overall damage, it brings it more in line with a Necromancer as far as risk and reward is concerned. (A lower duration poison, while more damaging, is also much riskier with the need to apply it more often)

The number one problem with Poison Zon's is that they have extremely high damage with ZERO repercussions. Just about every other build has some sort of limitation or repercussion for attacking, be it ranged counters, having to get into melee range, or requiring the boss to be static and not move. Forcing them into melee range changes the entire dynamic of the build, but doesn't absolutely destroy the build. Plus, you have a ranged, safe option if getting into melee range isn't safe or plausible for a given situation.


Personally, I think its a great idea that brings the build in line with other Poison builds, and a decent alternative to Poison Absorbs being implemented. The damage would may still deserve a slight tweaking, but not a big one.

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:22 am 
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It would definitely bring it noter in line with the other poison builds and they would still have a ranged option if getting too close isn't possible. Does ds require ar for the poison?

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:17 am 
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Disease Spray doesn't need to hit to release clouds from what I've seen. The clouds come out either way.

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:15 am 
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yeh it will always release the missiles, it uses charged strike's skill functions with a diff looking missile and changed ele type

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:45 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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Abominae wrote:
Poison Necromancers deal with the same issues (being an extremely frail character having to pop into a bosses face), yet they're still a very strong build. They also do more damage than a poison zon and receive ~50% free pierce that can possibly break immunes.
You could actually argue Zons have better survivability than Necromancers given Strategy, Perfection, and better FHR breakpoints and waaay better FBR breakpoints.

I do agree with you in part. Zon's do have strategy and perfection this is true. But, they would also need to give up quite a bit to achieve survivability if they want to tag a boss/sub-boss for the high dps if these get swapped. The problem here, to me at least, is that tanking gear requires huge amounts of str. Sure, you can get a few armors, helm and shields with dr on them and add ber runs to hit 50% dr. But would give up a lot of dmg getting there. It is worth looking at though.

I will admit that plague as is is op, especially end game. I'm rolling thru nm virtually solo with relative ease. Possibly a small tweak to plague's synergies would help, like lowering from 16% from poison jav and DS to 10% or a change in how it scales per level. Another possibility is the abundance of pierces that all elemental classes have. Perhaps adjusting those to a level of say -75% being the high end would also help.

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:32 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Abominae wrote:
Poison Necromancers deal with the same issues (being an extremely frail character having to pop into a bosses face), yet they're still a very strong build. They also do more damage than a poison zon and receive ~50% free pierce that can possibly break immunes.
You could actually argue Zons have better survivability than Necromancers given Strategy, Perfection, and better FHR breakpoints and waaay better FBR breakpoints.

I do agree with you in part. Zon's do have strategy and perfection this is true. But, they would also need to give up quite a bit to achieve survivability if they want to tag a boss/sub-boss for the high dps if these get swapped. The problem here, to me at least, is that tanking gear requires huge amounts of str. Sure, you can get a few armors, helm and shields with dr on them and add ber runs to hit 50% dr. But would give up a lot of dmg getting there. It is worth looking at though.

I will admit that plague as is is op, especially end game. I'm rolling thru nm virtually solo with relative ease. Possibly a small tweak to plague's synergies would help, like lowering from 16% from poison jav and DS to 10% or a change in how it scales per level. Another possibility is the abundance of pierces that all elemental classes have. Perhaps adjusting those to a level of say -75% being the high end would also help.


0 % dr, tank with valk and decoy. 104 str after anni


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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:59 pm 

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PmP wrote:
0 % dr, tank with valk and decoy. 104 str after anni
So, you're saying that set like that you can stand in a bosses face using disease spray and survive without a healer spamming HB on you, doubt it. Decoy works for some, but as soon as you attack, their focus changes. Valk is good, but won't last long vs act bosses. I know, played a few different zon's. Your fix for zon's is logical in theory. Let's not forget that a good meteor sorc can destroy hell act bosses equally well, and stay at range. All they need is the boss to stand still while fire patch is built. The other side of this would simply be a small shift in skill setup. Many javazon's use 1 point in dodge, avoid and penetrate, using DS would result in dodge lock.

To me is seems more related to the amount of pierce available. Adjusting the dmg scaling from the skill and a reduction in pierce would make a significant impact in how the skill works. Perhaps I'll do some testing later on and see what I figure out.

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:01 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
So, you're saying that set like that you can stand in a bosses face using disease spray and survive without a healer spamming HB on you, doubt it.


Why would you consistently stand in a bosses face?

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:37 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
kwikster wrote:
So, you're saying that set like that you can stand in a bosses face using disease spray and survive without a healer spamming HB on you, doubt it.


Why would you consistently stand in a bosses face?
Well, DS is a direct attack with a 6 sec psn duration. Therefore, in order to apply it, you must get right in the bosses face. Since all bosses have poison length reduction of around 50%, you must go there often, just like a strike necro does. Sure, you hit and back out for a sec or 2 then hit again. The fact remains, you're in the hot zone often. Using DS for trash is one thing, vs a boss still another.

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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Hit and run then, not stand.
Well seems it doesn't work with poison necs now, as soon as you're trying to psnstrike a boss he's changing target to you no matter how many summons are out there. I finally made first poison nec in 2 years because ppl totally lost love to it and must say it's hilarious when 9k hp nec with 4 blades and druids bear/wolves and oak ofc 220k psn strike must use 16 juvs to kill thrack... or lose 10k hp when trying to stab Diablo. WOW. Still funny build, all necs are teeth anyway.
Back to topic: Imo Poison javelin should be switched with plague, leave no trail thus psn only on hit. Why? It makes no sense that 1 hit skill do like 1/3 of AoE skill(plague). Plague should be amazon's poison nova.


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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:24 am 
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man just started my psn necro and he hitted 50 + last night.
This psnstrike shit seems so hard, like we tried to do diablo normal last night, i would not be able to get anywhere near him without dieing before beeing able to hit him.

Necros seems so fragile its stupid, the psn strike seems almost impossible to pull of in even harder envoirements :(


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 Post subject: Re: PmP's fix to the pz zon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Poison necros functioned fine last season overly well even. Survivability has changed but people don't need to act like getting in the bosses face is the end of the world. They've had it too good with javs

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