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 Post subject: Counters
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:47 am
Posts: 615
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Boss counters are the main reason a lot of builds dont work out. (I'm not just talking endgame)
Like zeal, if you zeal a boss he'll do 5 counters in a sec(depending on how fast you hit ofc), wich in all likelihood will or can kill your entire party.
And there are a lot of builds that have an attack wich will require you to have as fast attack speed as possible to inflict a decent amount of damage, or just cause an excessive amount of counters each attack.

Counters is one of the reasons why poison builds work out so well because they only need to hit about once every 8 seconds.

I'm not entirely sure how counters work all the time on all bosses, if they respond with the counters when they take damage or when they're hit with an damaging attack(wheather they took damage from it or not). I mean some abilitys doesnt even cause counters, like firestorm. I dont know if thats a bug or something though.

Maybe its possible to limit the amount of counters to only a certain amount each couple of seconds or something like that. Or maybe its even possible to limit the amount of counters from each player each second, or something like that...

I was thinking that maybe if we could get a discussion going about it, some smart people would come up with something that could work.

I know this game isnt supposed to be easy but its not gona be easyer if more builds are viable.
I mean atm if you play a build that causes a good amount of counters then at bosses you're very likly to just standing on the side an waiting for the others to kill the boss, and whats easyer then that?!

Ofc a lot of builds can do more things that just deal damage, zeal palas can probably tank decently. But not all builds got that opportunity like I dont know... a frozen orb sorc probably cant do much to a boss if you got a big party, for fear of killing them(maybe more of an issue on hardcore then softcore). Of course if the boss is immune to your attack then thats something else...

I dont know how it is code wise if this is even possible to fix shit like this. If thats the case then.... I guess I'll shut up then :P

I'm not telling you to fix this I'm just making a suggestion, seeing as this is the suggestion forum.
Its at least something to think about.

Its always in the last place you look....

Last edited by Verb on Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Counters
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 815
Most projectiles and melee attacks are flagged to be able to trigger counters. Also a boss doesn't always have to to cast a counter. What a counter really is is chance to cast when struck/you die. The % chance it goes off does not necessarily have to be 100% (which means its entirely possible to land 10 hits yet a 90% chance counter not go off at all by a fluke or worse yet a 10% chance counter could go off 10 times in 10 hits).

An other thing is a boss could have multiple chance to casts when struck (and they can all trigger off the same counter chance hit). This could theoretically result in crazy things such as bosses firing off 30 counters from 10 hits that are counter chances.

Firestorm is currently flagged not to set off counters because if it was flagged to set off counters it would set off 75 counter chances in one second at point blank (clearly enough counterspam to obliterate an entire party). With some creative missile editing though one can make it so only certain parts of an attack trigger counters.

For example the skill Avalanche in the mod aftermath (a clone of firestorm that does cold damage instead of fire) used to be entirely counterless. When trevor initially tried enabling counters for it he ended up turning it into a skill with hundreds and even thousands of counter chances due to botching the counter settings. With some more work however he made it so that only when the head of a traveling jet touched a monster it would generate a counter chance (thus only resulting in only one counter chance per jet that hit the enemy) which was far more reasonable.

Like what was done with avalanche in Aftermath I'm sure with some creative missile editing one could drastically reduce the counter amounts on some skills. One problem with having a skill be no counter chance however is that it will not trigger the boss heal timer. Of course we will have to be wary with what we do with this route because it could result in entirely counterless skills if you aim them right (for example even though Aftermath's avalanche triggers counters if you got the enemy to run through the middle of the jets without touching the leading ends of the jets you'd damage the enemy with zero counter chances).

To my knowledge however there's no way to limit the number of times an actual attack counter fires off. The only thing that could possibly save players is making the counter skills the bosses use have have abnormally long next hit delay settings so that players are immune to further hits from the counter or other next hit delay inducing counters for seconds instead of a fraction of a second. An other thing that could done to make the boss more scarey without it piling up from the party whaling on the boss would be a self buff counter (which has been used to sometimes too much success in Aftermath due to the buff itself having settings too strong).

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 Post subject: Re: Counters
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 229
I miss my Charged Strike build from vanilla...

There are only 10 types of people in this world...People who understand binary and people who don't.

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