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 Post subject: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:33 pm 
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This build is terrible and is outclassed by just about every Assassin build. Any remarkable quality about the build is completely outclassed by a different build and these skills really bring nothing to the table that another Sin can't do better (outside of 1pt wonder Mind Blast).

Unless I'm missing something, the highest possible level Psychic Hammer & Mind Blast available is level 60. Mind you, these values are using 2x Darkness in a +3/+3 PH/MB claw for the possible +6 from each claw. Shadow Killers is most likely the better gear choice due to 3OS, but I wanted to show the highest damage possible.

Psychic Hammer @ level 60: 14092 - 21364 or 7056-10682 Phys+Mag Damage
Mind Blast @ level 60: 14441 - 20160 Physical Damage
Assassin maximum FCR breakpoint: 9FPA (174% FCR)


This is absolutely horrendous for a build completely geared out at level 99. Not only that, its on a build that brings zero party buffs and has no AoE outside of Death Sentry (which is available to every Sin build, and yes, they use it better).
To top if off, Mental Sins have 1 piece of gear specifically designed for the build. It's a level 53 staff that takes away your Clawblock for +2 MB and +5-7 Psychic Hammer. It's quickly outclassed by Shadow Supremacy (or even "Pestilence" (L47) in the correct claws) and then they are stuck with zero build specific gear.

An Assassin brings nothing to a party outside of damage, yet both of your damage sources (Magic & Physical) are vastly out-damaged by utility counterparts.
Bone Necromancers do much more magical damage and with greater AoE. This is with bringing both Curses and low delay, recastable summons to the team.
A Windy Druid does much more physical damage and with greater AoE. This is with bringing both Oak and low delay, recastable summons to the team.
A Warcry Barbain does ~40% more physical damage and with better AoE. They also bring BC/BO/FI/Shout to the team. This is without accounting for the fact Barbarians hit a 7FPA casting rate and Warcry hits twice on bigger targets (resulting in more than 250% of Mindblast's damage, in an AoE that can actually be used versus trash)

There is no reason to make a Mental Sin if they can't at least match or out-damage the single target damage output of similar builds, especially when they bring so much more utility than an Assassin.

This build needs a rework because as is it's a heaping pile of shit. Even with a reduction in Physical Resistance and Magic Absorbs, 10k/10k is pathetic for a single target skill castable at 9FPA.
Basically what the build needs is just higher damage, and most likely Psychic Hammer being either pure Magical or pure Physical damage, though it could be made workable if the split is favorable.
I won't suggest anything for Mind Blast, as IMO, its unusable unless the conversion is removed. This is controversial, as people do enjoy 1pt wonder Mind Blast, so I'd be happy to just see Psychic Hammer become a viable force.


Suggested Changes:

1) Keep the split damage and increase the skills damage by ~150%. This would result in ~50k top damage or ~25k/25k @ level 60 (complete end-game lvl 99 Sin with all the trimmings). The damage increase doesn't have to be as high if actual Mentalsin specific gear is added. (PH @ 70 does 17k-26k, it would still need an increase if PH specific gear was added)

2) Change PH to pure magical damage and increase it to ~40k top damage. This is around 10k more damage than I've seen top-end Bone Spear reported at. Given that PH is a single target skill only, I don't see 40k being unreasonable in the slightest, given points I've already explained. Number should be actually higher if Magic Absorb doesn't change, as without that change, Magic is pretty much the same as Fire/Cold/Lit and PH will still be quite out-damaged by other single target elemental skills (Firebolt, Ice Bolt, TK, etc)

3) Change PH to pure physical damage and increase it to ~35k-40k @ level 60. At 9FPA, this is still a far cry from any twinked out melee character (considering most can attack twice as fast, with CS/DS). The lower physical damage is obviously to compensate for lack of IM punishing the build, and of course block & hit chance. This will give the build similar (but still less) than a fully twinked Warcry Barb against a big sprite (IE: Most bosses) while still providing much less utility to the party.


The first proposed change is my favorite, and sticks with the cool split damage theme that Psychic Hammer has (and requires less tinkering with the skill as the second two).
Keep in mind that these numbers are based on a perfectly geared Assassin with all charms and highest +skills gear possible. Also realize we're talking about a purely SINGLE target spell with a relatively slow cast speed that is checked against TWO different resistances, meaning your damage is significantly crappier if you don't have awesome magic pierce (there is no real PH specific -mag equipment) and you don't have Amplify Damage / Decreprify.


As far as how to increase the damage, I believe adding another synergy (and increasing MB's synergy) would compliment the build more than just increasing its base damage. It's only a 40 point build to begin with, 60 points makes it a bit more well rounded. Pretty much anything could work as a synergy, but my suggestions would be Dragon Flight, Fade, Cloak of Shadows or Death Sentry.


Anyway, never really heard too much talk about this build, and it really is a total piece of shit. It's even worse now that skillers have been removed. Level 70 PH/MB was acquirable last patch, meaning the skill (without Amp nerfs taken into account) lost ~20% of its damage transitioning into this patch. Though, it was still a piece of crap last patch anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:04 am 

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I completely agree. I don't think I've seen one mental sin this whole ladder. Very weak build and would need a major damage boost.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:52 pm 

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1) 100% agree with this post. It starts out fine in normal and then fades away. Other physical/magic damage spells have either better mechanics, AOE, or better and faster damage.

2) Love this post in general. Very well explained and detailed. People should aim for these kind of posts when making claims/looking for changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:00 am 

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EDIT: LOL!

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Last edited by Lee on Tue May 24, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:19 am 
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Abominae wrote:
1) Keep the split damage and increase the skills damage by ~150%. This would result in ~50k top damage or ~25k/25k @ level 60 (complete end-game lvl 99 Sin with all the trimmings). The damage increase doesn't have to be as high if actual Mentalsin specific gear is added. (PH @ 70 does 17k-26k, it would still need an increase if PH specific gear was added)

Good post, I can get this implemented this round and will use the figures you suggest. Option 1 is by far the most straight forward method, so I will begin there.

Skills are controlled in the following manner:
1. there is a base value (EMax/Emin) that sets what lvl1 is.
2. there are ELev1, ELev2, ELev3, ELev4 and ELev5 that control how many points you get each time you put a skill point in to the skill.

ELev1 = 1-8
ELev2 = 9-16
ELev3 = 17-22
ELev4 = 23-29
ELev5 = 30 and higher
(there is one for both min & max dmg, so there is ELev1Max for example)

From that, it is easy to build an excel mathematical model for the skill that allows you to tweak those values and determine the skill values.

It sounds likes this build would benefit from a slight boost a ELev4 and ELev5. PH is curently set to:
8 4 6 10 16 24 (min)
12 6 10 16 24 36 (max)

I will adjust them to correspond to a roughly 150% increase in dmg. As there is also a pending adjustment to magic absorbs (rather than everything having 40% magic absorb, it will range from 30-40% - being 30% for most sub bosses), there is already some boost but I agree with your sentiments and will further boost the skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:31 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Good post, I can get this implemented this round and will use the figures you suggest. Option 1 is by far the most straight forward method, so I will begin there.


Sweet deal then. When you refer to "this round" do you mean the upcoming server-side update or the actual next reset?
Also, if it is part of the server-side update, will the damage boost be retroactive? (Not entirely knowledgeable on how skill damage tinkering works or affects current characters)


Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to read and consider my post. It would be very nice to see this build get some much needed love.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:49 pm 
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yep - this patch. The work you put in already saved me the time, so i will just tweak those numbers, make sure it matches your expectation and roll it.

It will apply retroactively to the new skill (in theory). I am not 100% sure if there will be a display error or not, that would kind of be surprising and suck.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:23 am 
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Quote:
Do you know if ctc Amplify Damage functions like 20 hard point Amplify Damage?
nah, it's around 30%. 100lvl ctc gives you 50%.
Quote:
It's already a strong build in normal due to being 40 pts and lack of mitigation (Phys res & magic res are both very low in Normal) and with a direct damage boost it could turn into an untwinked powerhouse early-on(...) This potential problem could be avoided if another synergy was added to Psychic Hammer.
How about linking 3rd synergy to fade? same tree and it's already being maxed by majority of sins. Could prevent high damage early and medicore or below medicore after.
BTW: Someone invented time machine?


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:06 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
yep - this patch. The work you put in already saved me the time, so i will just tweak those numbers, make sure it matches your expectation and roll it.


Sweet. I've been testing 50k PH a bit in single player, and it seems like it will preform quite well once Phys Res & Magic Absorbs are lowered. I've only tested it against Hell Andariel and Tobial though, most likely will mess around with Mephisto & Mithia next. My tests are slightly skewed though, as you won't be hitting level 60 PH & -130 Magic Pierce with the same gear set-up, you'd have level 58 at the most with Battle Command active.
Do you know if ctc Amplify Damage functions like 20 hard point Amplify Damage? I've been using a level 20 Amplify Damage when struck charm to emulate PH's damage with a Necromancer. I'm assuming it does function like hard point Amp based on my results (25k Magic damage alone shouldn't take down Hell Andariel based on my Hammerdin tests) but I want to be certain so my feedback isn't skewed.


The only trouble I really see with the damage boost is how powerful the build will be in Normal/Nightmare. It's already a strong build in normal due to being 40 pts and lack of mitigation (Phys res & magic res are both very low in Normal) and with a direct damage boost it could turn into an untwinked powerhouse early-on. But, this is also countered by the fact that you're giving up a slot for a character that brings nothing but damage to a party as opposed to the optimal Barb/Pal/Dru/Nec party that's been dominating the untwinked ladder (HC at least) for awhile.

This potential problem could be avoided if another synergy was added to Psychic Hammer, making it so the build takes longer to reach maximum strength. However, I do understand that takes more work and requires coding the synergy, altering your calcuations, etc.

To be honest though, once you have a rough spreadsheet of the damage with the boost, you'll have much more knowledge about its potential Normal/Nightmare damage than I do and will be able to see if its problematic.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:56 am 
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Steel wrote:
nah, it's around 30%. 100lvl ctc gives you 50%.


Ah okay, I'll have to retest that then using level 101 Oskill Amplify Damage (50% Amp). I can't seem to make it go higher than that, but my editing skills are terrible.
Mainly just trying to make sure a 150% boost isn't over the top, need to also test the skill at lower damage levels to get a comparison.

Steel wrote:
How about linking 3rd synergy to fade? same tree and it's already being maxed by majority of sins. Could prevent high damage early and medicore or below medicore after.
BTW: Someone invented time machine?


Fade would be a good synergy. I've been bringing up a Mentalsin on the realm and the damage is pretty high early on. I was hitting 3k/3k in Act 4 Normal, enough to take down Diablo and cohorts. She's currently in Act 3 NM sporting 5.5k/5.5k Psychic Hammer with -38 Magic Pierce.
But, she's also been twinked to hell and back her entire existence, using the absolute best gear she can for each level bracket. So far, she hasn't done anything another equally twinked character couldn't, but its been effective enough up to this point.

Should hopefully be getting to Hell soon, where I expect her to have a significant drop off as mitigation sky rockets and her damage won't be improving much at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:15 am 
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http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/365/37278184.jpg if you have an excel or something similar just open skills.txt (from PureRage's side client edits) and edit aurastatcalc1(line for amp on pic) to whatever value you want. if you want amp 55% just type "-55" without "". Easier than giving yourself 200lvl oskills.


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 5:10 am 

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I really love that Frozen Armor can be cast on party members this patch, so, to make assassins more party friendly, how about allowing one assassin buff to be cast on party members as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:12 am 

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SoB and Fade would be ridiculously op to cast on anyone, wouldnt be balanced at all without a totall shit nerf to both abilitys.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am 

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Well the idea is to promote party play, so for fade and burst of speed at least a duration nerf to about max 1-2 mins would be required.
Presonally I would much prefer them being castable than them being available from items (wouldnt mind some reduction of aura's/bo on items as well).


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
I won't suggest anything for Mind Blast, as IMO, its unusable unless the conversion is removed. This is controversial, as people do enjoy 1pt wonder Mind Blast, so I'd be happy to just see Psychic Hammer become a viable force.

I have always found this skill to be dumb as well.
I fired up a Mentalsin today just to get a feel for how it plays and Psychic hammer is cool, but it is a real big clickfest as you need to single target everything. Reminds me of what I hate about TK sorcs. The area impact of M.Blast sounds appealing.

The game says that lvl1 M.Blast has a 20% chance of conversion and I assume that is going to increase with points. The text files though say it ranges from a minimum of 11% to a max of 75%. Seems like we could set that to 10% min and 10% max to keep it from being annoying, yet still retaining some conversion fun.

There is also a variable for conversion duration which is set to 250 frames (10 seconds). I could see that being dropped down to 125 frames for only a 5 second nuisance conversion.

What are thoughts on this one from more experienced assassin players?

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Ok, I can change the max skill tiers for P.Hammer from:
6 10 16 24 36
6 20 30 50 80

That's a pretty big jump and the numbers will look something like this:
(first column = previous, second column = new, third = %change)
Starting with lvl30, ending at lvl66
Code:
5208   9888   -90%
5640   10848   -92%
6072   11808   -94%
6504   12768   -96%
6936   13728   -98%
7368   14688   -99%
7800   15648   -101%
8232   16608   -102%
8664   17568   -103%
9096   18528   -104%
9528   19488   -105%
9960   20448   -105%
10392   21408   -106%
10824   22368   -107%
11256   23328   -107%
11688   24288   -108%
12120   25248   -108%
12552   26208   -109%
12984   27168   -109%
13416   28128   -110%
13848   29088   -110%
14280   30048   -110%
14712   31008   -111%
15144   31968   -111%
15576   32928   -111%
16008   33888   -112%
16440   34848   -112%
16872   35808   -112%
17304   36768   -112%
17736   37728   -113%
18168   38688   -113%
18600   39648   -113%
19032   40608   -113%
19464   41568   -114%
19896   42528   -114%
20328   43488   -114%
20760   44448   -114%

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:57 pm 
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I believe Cloak of Shadows should be enough to deal with trash. If you can convert it, you can blind it too. Less annoyance for the party, more killing.

I saw a topic by Purerage some days ago where he had the idea of changing Shadow Warrior into something else, a possible new synergy for mindsins. I believe the idea is worth exploring further. It could be a proper AoE spell for them, and Mind Blast could be kept the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:58 am 

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I would prefer mindblast without conversion as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:31 am 
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Seems to be a lack of runewords (and uniques) for this build too. Here are two that I whipped up:



Madness (Tir Dol Lum)
+2 to Shadow Disciplines
+1-2 to Psychic Hammer
+1-2 to Mind Blast
20-30% Faster Cast Rate
-8-10% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +10-15%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+24 Life After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

Shadow of Doubt (Mal Lum Tir)
+3 to Assasin Skill Levels
+1-2 to Psychic Hammer
+1-2 to Mind Blast
+45% Faster cast Rate
-20-30% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +10-15%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:56 pm 

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LOL those items with how powerful they are verse the runes required... you have to be joking me? I'm assuming those are in CLAWS.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:36 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I have always found this skill to be dumb as well.
I fired up a Mentalsin today just to get a feel for how it plays and Psychic hammer is cool, but it is a real big clickfest as you need to single target everything. Reminds me of what I hate about TK sorcs. The area impact of M.Blast sounds appealing.


Yeah, playing a Mentalsin vs. trash gets brutal on your hand. Once you obtain a decent level Death Sentry its a lot better (Luckily the build has points for both Fade & Dsentry). Like other AoE lacking Sin builds, you pretty much rely on DSentry to get it done while your main skill hits the big crap. I don't think trash-friendly Mindblast would change the playstyle much, but it's not a bad idea at all.


blue_myriddn wrote:
The game says that lvl1 M.Blast has a 20% chance of conversion and I assume that is going to increase with points. The text files though say it ranges from a minimum of 11% to a max of 75%. Seems like we could set that to 10% min and 10% max to keep it from being annoying, yet still retaining some conversion fun.


My Mindblast is lvl 40 and currently sits at 71%. You can't MB a group of mobs without at least a couple converts, let alone kill them before you Convert. Lowering it to 10% would allow you to smash some trash with it, but you'd still be able to convert when MB'ing packs of mobs.

The convert on MB has been pretty useful for soloing on my Mentalsin, but its not something that makes or breaks the build. As stated earlier, anything that can be converted can also be Cloak of Shadow'd, as well as using an A2 Convert merc, both of which are available to any Assassin build.



blue_myriddn wrote:
Ok, I can change the max skill tiers for P.Hammer from:
6 10 16 24 36
6 20 30 50 80


The damage chart looks solid to me. My ultra twinked Assassin is level 76 with level 40 PH. It currently does 7.3-11.2k and despite using the absolute best gear available for her, in A5 NM she no longer preforms well (against trash, let alone bosses) for how incredibly twinked she is. Almost every equally twinked Assassin build would severely out-damage her at this stage (and onward) so I believe the damage boost is more than fair.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Seems to be a lack of runewords (and uniques) for this build too. Here are two that I whipped up:


Both of those runewords are pretty much perfect and well-catered to Mentalsins. The first one helps mid-game, as Mentalsins absolutely no Claws that provide FCR, and pretty much have to use Wep/Shield until you can scrounge FCR Rings and solid FCR gear.
The only problem I have with them, is like Lee said, they're too low level.

"Madness" is available at level 37 and is better than Shadow Supremacy with a good roll in a blank Claw. Add in the fact that you can later make them in +3 PH Claws, you have a level 60ish item that is on par with Shadow Killers with the build.
I would suggest leaving it as is, but requiring Mal or Ist, bumping its level requirement to 50-53. They're still quite strong, but untwinked Mal/Ist usually won't be dropping until A3 NMish unless you're quite lucky. With the variables, it also makes it a nice mid-game twink item to try and get a perfectish roll.

As for the second claw, "Shadow of Doubt", its an end-game claw. With a good roll, it blatantly outclasses Shadow Killers in +3 PH Claws and is pretty much the best available Claw in the game for the build. I don't think a level 50 item should outclass a 95, even if it is for a specific build.
My suggestion would be to up it to the Jah/Cham range (or even Zod really) and drop the variables (at least the pierce/skills). This makes it THE end-game claw for Mentalsins, while things like Madness, Whisper, and Shadow Supremacy will hold you through-out mid-game.
I say drop the variables because honestly, I can't find anything more frustrating than spending a Jah+ and getting the lowest roll possible, especially on important stats like +skills and pierce values.

Otherwise, the runewords are great and I'd love to see them implemented. The FCR alone would go along way for the build. Currently, trying to hit the last breakpoint using 2x Claws is a nightmare filled with crafting awesome caster gear with 30%+ FCR on it, as well as your skills/resists/etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:26 pm 

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100% agree with Abominaes post. Mal or Ist very well suits the 1st runeword but the 2nd one should be a little higher. I don't want to say Cham+ for several reasons. First of all, I think even with the buffs the build will still be under played. Second, Shadow killers are very very common. I'd say Jah + for the Higher RW and Mal or Ist for the lower.

EDIT: I guess Jah/Cham would be better though now that I re-read your post Abominae. I forgot about +3 claws.. doh. They would out class Skillers by far. Def. Jah+Cham in that case.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:08 pm 
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The rune levels in this mod are so messed up, but I guess until that gets fixed I have to work with a broken system. It just kills me to put a Jah/Cham in any runeword since the first Jah/Cham's people have will go towards bigger runewords - but that is the only way to set a runeword to a higher level. The runes really out to be:

zod - 95
cham - 93
jah - 91
ber - 90
sur - 89
Lo -87
Ohm - 85
Vex - 80
Gul - 75

I digress though, will change the words to:

Madness (Tir Dol Lum)
+1-2 to Shadow Disciplines
20-25% Faster Cast Rate
-8-10% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +10%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+24 Life After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

Deception (Mal Lum Tir)
+3 to Assasin Skill Levels
+30% Faster cast Rate
-15-20% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +10-15%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

Shadow of Doubt (Jah Lum Tir)
+3 to Assasin Skill Levels
+2 to Psychic Hammer
+2 to Mind Blast
+45% Faster cast Rate
-30% Enemy Magic Resists
Resist All +15%
+12 to Mana After Each Kill
+30 Energy
+60 to Mana

That keeps a low, accessible runeword to new members to the community to play with, but puts more of the power in the higher items. Seem about right?

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:55 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Reno, NV
I dig 'em. Between the three of them, Shadow Sins finally get some FCR love from their weapons. If it wasn't for the fact I had two 20% FCR/+1 Sin rings & 2x Amn'd 20% FCR Shadow circlet, there's pretty much no way my Sin could hit the last BP. The trend follows end-game where you're pretty much locked into heavy caster crafts to hit it with Shadow Killers (unless you want to sacrifice sockets for Amn runes on a level 95+ character)

As for the other mods, they all look great and all benefit the build (the extra mana on all of them is fantastic). Looks like I'll actually be picking up White Claws now.

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 Post subject: Re: Mental Sins (PH & MB)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
Posts: 895
Not bad.. looks ok to me. Pretty good ideas for a Rw if I say so myself. Sure you'd have great ideas for several other Rws long as the runes are right. Anyway cool to see Mindsins gettin buffed and a couple new Rws. Prob roll one next ladder.

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