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 Post subject: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 2:09 pm 
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If Poison absorb clears its testing (click here to help test) and is added to the game, this will result in an
  • 80% drop in the amount of damage that players will do against the Prime Evils & Samheim
  • 66% drop in damage against all sub-bosses
  • 80% drop against "Class" bosses which include Seal bosses before Diablo, Minions before Baal, Azmodan & Belial (A&B), and Land of Shadow champions.

This is a very dramatic damage change and will impact ALL poison based characters (rabies, psn strike, nova, venom, etc).

This will also effect all difficulties. You cannot for example set Hell Andariel to have 40% absorb and normal Andariel to have 20% absorb. Whatever Andy gets, she gets for all difficulties. Same story for all sub-bosses.

This will be offset somewhat be the removal of additional duration reduction, but that should have little impact on rapidly applied attacks like psn javs and only benefit rabies & psn dagger.

Should we proceed with this?
Do people have alternate models? If so - please be specific and include your math and figures for why you think this is appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:33 pm 
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I have been thinking about this in what little spare time I have had over the last week:

From the discussions that I recall, they have been almost completely dedicated to the amazon. Why then are we going to hit all poison builds?

Are rabies and poison necs as overpowered as poizons are considered to be? If so, then ok. (I don't really know the numbers for a nec) If not, then this should be done very cautiously.

My rabies druid in moderate gear is hitting 80k with 43% pierce entering hell. I know it could be better, but I only get to play sporadically (and my highest character is a fury mutt...i.e. i don't get to twink much).

If this is done, then the poison creeper damage at higher levels really needs adjusting. It is great at low levels, but it already quickly becomes absolutely useless. It essentially is no better than 100 pdsc after about act 4 normal. It doesn't hurt a damn thing after that. It gets about 1/4 of the damage of rabies iirc once both are maxed (I think creeper is at 18k or so on my druid). It is essentially just a way to divert 20 pts from a build at the moment.

I can post a screenie if you need one.

I don't expect this change to cater just to me, as a more casual player. What I do expect is to look at the more indirect ramifications, like the following:

This does nothing to effect the other main DoT build of the week...the meteor sorc. All this is going to do in the short term is to push those that use/abuse poison to make more meteorsorcs. I know that this shouldn't be the reason to not go ahead with it, but we all know this will happen. What are your plans about this. If there are none, then this change is of no real value imo.

EDIT: Also, why can't you use monprop.txt to allocate absorbs in norm/nm/hell? Are the props too full or something?

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:46 pm 

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I think the dmg should be adjusted per individual build. Venom doesn't need to take a hit, plague jav does, poison stab i think should be lowered if reverted back to causing a cloud. 80% dmg decrease seems a bit overkill. But i wouldn't shed any tears if plague jav was dropped 50%. The drop in dmg seems like it'd encourage more people to use facets over rubies which would amount to weaker decoys less hp etc. Seems more in line with what people want them to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:47 pm 

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80% to much IMO


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:14 pm 

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I agree that this is way too much. Not to mention it affects skills like venom that arent op in a negative way. This is definitely not the way to balance poison by reducing all the resistances. Poison zons are the problem. Address the problem. I feel like we end up trying to use a shotgun to fix imbalances when you just need to snipe the outliers. Keep it simple and just balance the poison zons, but give them something to make up for the damage loss bc with less damage they have no appeal over druids w life buffs. Balancing is not just taking away things to a char. Reduce the zons damage but keep her viability.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:50 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:29 am
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i think this is a decent approach for now. i believe the problem lay mostly in rabies/plague javlin. the other poison builds like poison dagger and venom are going to suffer a lot more while the other 2 will hardly notice the difference once twinked. being that this is a server-side update though, i'm not sure what the scope is of possible change that can be put into place.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 12:49 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
please be specific and include your math and figures for why you think this is appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 1:46 am 

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You don't need numbers to realize when the patch reset comes that this implementation will fail. Poison will be useless until MAJOR twinkage. You can't balance characters based on end-game gear and so forth. Even you.. yourself once said that. Such a hypocrite.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 1:58 am 
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Quote:
please be specific and include your math and figures for why you think this is appropriate.


Can you (or someone) please answer my edit in response 1. It is also a bit difficult to delve deep into the math when the final values of the boss hps is still a mystery. I have given a list some time ago that tried to calculate them, but they are not likely accurate.

There are very few here that can argue specifically for every poison build, twinked and untwinked. It should really be on the shoulders of those that are implementing to do the math. If the combo of absorb+length change is being winged, it is not good. We would really have to know how the latter is being changed, and what the values are now to do math any justice.

Why don't ya give us some idea of what values for poison damage per second that we are shooting for at particular levels (I mean actual damage, after all resists/absorbs, etc are out of the way), and compare to what possibilities characters have.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:20 am 

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kramuti wrote:
Why don't ya give us some idea of what values for poison damage per second that we are shooting for at particular levels (I mean actual damage, after all resists/absorbs, etc are out of the way), and compare to what possibilities characters have.


I see your argument, and raise you this: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3876

This will be the first incarnation of poison absorbs me thinks

blinky99, on the topic of 'hell shard runs' wrote:
if you got a sweet cold merc w. ur psn zon you should be able to solo run duriel meph and diablo, baal too if no psn immune sub bosses appear,andy can be solod with blaze sorc or necro and meteor sorc


Any proposed change will upset the above status and will make many people angry that their soloing chars are less effective. Expect high resistance to any change.


Lee wrote:
You don't need numbers to realize when the patch reset comes that this implementation will fail. Poison will be useless until MAJOR twinkage. You can't balance characters based on end-game gear and so forth. Even you.. yourself once said that. Such a hypocrite.

Yeah, about that, so here I was, A4 normal party, barb (conc I think), bone nec (with blades and LR),poison amazon

We start by offing the cold seal boss, we pop the poison boss. He rapes us with poison. I got my hands full just by spamming blades as the barb can't tank it (dun ask) and amazon's valk/decoy pops in a flash.

Long story short, I didn't have LR at the time, amazon bails (poison immune). Stuck.
Me and barb go to lvl a bit, and I get LR. Another poison amazon in A5 joins (lvl 55 vs us - nec and barb- lvl 50-ish)
LR breaks poison immunity, poiosn amazon kills it in about 2 minutes. I go get some mana pots, poison amazon pops the telefunk boss seal solo. By the time I get back, telefunk boss is at half life. A LR and in a few moments this boss is toast

Big D, blades cant tank him. P amazon poisons him and runs away, 1-2 minutes later D is dead. Neighter nec or barb could stand up and smack him. No tank required (not even summons), only poison did the trick.
Fight would have been impossible for us if we didn't have the poison amazon...giving us a lift into A5 normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:28 am 
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Quote:
This will also effect all difficulties. You cannot for example set Hell Andariel to have 40% absorb and normal Andariel to have 20% absorb. Whatever Andy gets, she gets for all difficulties. Same story for all sub-bosses.
You can, just set req level on it(uniqueitems) and whole charm won't spawn on norm/nm bosses.
Quote:
If this is done, then the poison creeper damage at higher levels really needs adjusting. It is great at low levels, but it already quickly becomes absolutely useless. It essentially is no better than 100 pdsc after about act 4 normal. It doesn't hurt a damn thing after that. It gets about 1/4 of the damage of rabies iirc once both are maxed (I think creeper is at 18k or so on my druid). It is essentially just a way to divert 20 pts from a build at the moment.
Who uses poison creeper on bosses? hm? poison abs will be only added to long-name enemies, not common enemies.
Quote:
You don't need numbers to realize when the patch reset comes that this implementation will fail. Poison will be useless until MAJOR twinkage. You can't balance characters based on end-game gear and so forth. Even you.. yourself once said that. Such a hypocrite.
How attacking once per 8 sec and do the same damage as others can be useless? ofc guys who think that every boss should fall under 1min will say so. Poison will still be great - FFS you don't stand there and continuously attack as everyone else.

I've played with one of HC guys last time, he said that he had never been on baal game without poison char nor seen baal dying from other elem - he said he had few 90+ hc chars. Later on he said SC sux etc. just of that, because we died yet he had 1lvl oak and no sob. My blizz sorc in ghetto gear killed every boss from guardian to baal - Glasya and that cold immune tentacle died from my merc's hand. So sorry, stop saying bullshit about psn being useless or too low. That change will hurt not existing class venom sins. That skill need real buff anyway.

And Blue said 80% because that's how abs work, cap is ofc 40%. With all pierce going negative bosses will have hard 40% res.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:47 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
please be specific and include your math and figures for why you think this is appropriate.


Well does anyone have a end game geared rabies druid to compare the damage to a psn amazon?
I've seen some pics of psn amas with like 450k damage and I have no idea what kind of damage a rabies dru can do with equally good gear.

A lvl ~60 venom did something like 8,783 - 10,049/.5 sec when buffing, and then with some defencive gear with +psn damage/-enemy psn res 10-12k/.5 sec wich amounts to about 20-24k/1 sec(this is all taken from Franks venom barb thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3520&start=20).

EDIT: I now saw a pic of a rabies dru called Pukefeast with rabies, his damage was: 385k/8sec=~48k/1sec. No idea what kind of gear he has got though. (taken from the char pic thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3591&start=110)

Ama psn damage: 461k/8sec= ~57k/1sec(Cookies psn ama: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3591&start=30 )
So even as a assassin it would be way better to oskill venom since it has no synergys, and since you can get around a lvl 65 venom with oskill, but it still only do about 1/3 of the damage of a psn ama.

I honestly dont know that much balance but at least I can provide some numbers...
Though it is quite obvious that venom is way worse of then the other psn builds, since you have to use oskill for it to be viable. And then still its quite a let down from the other psn builds since you have to attack twise every second to keep the psn up at all times, while you only have to attack once every 8 sec with the other builds.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:23 am 
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kramuti wrote:
It is also a bit difficult to delve deep into the math when the final values of the boss hps is still a mystery.

Don't know those values.

kramuti wrote:
It should really be on the shoulders of those that are implementing to do the math.

Sure - just don't bitch when you don't like what I did. I can (and probably will) end up doing all the work myself as most people simply can't be bothered. I was just asking if anyone wanted to help. It would get the patch out faster if it wasn't just me doing all the work.

kramuti wrote:
If the combo of absorb+length change is being winged, it is not good. We would really have to know how the latter is being changed, and what the values are now to do math any justice.
Why don't ya give us some idea of what values for poison damage per second that we are shooting for at particular levels (I mean actual damage, after all resists/absorbs, etc are out of the way), and compare to what possibilities characters have.

Those are the numbers I am looking for people to provide. There wouldn't be any point in me asking if I already knew the numbers. I figure I will either sit down and work it all out on my own, or get some help from people to provide what sort of target values we are looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 12:36 pm 

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The fact that venom doesn't need a nerf should be reason enough not to add poison absorbs.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 12:43 pm 
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I wasn't trying to harp on ya blue. I think i am the only one so far to even give you a single number...and when was the last time i just ranted to no end about a change? I have always played the characters i enjoy, whether they are fantastic or crap (two of three of my highest characters are fury mutt and frenzy barb).

What are the values for a high end poison character anyway? 300-360ish over 8sec? or about 40-45k per sec before resists and pierce? How much pierce is being stacked on these guys?

Do you (or others) have a ball park value for others (that are not seen as op) that i could reference for an aiming point?

I still don't see what the issue with using monprop.txt to add poison absorb. You can give them values for norm/nm/hell within that file.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:54 pm 
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while things melted for me untwinked through normal I had just found the rabies sword in wsk to give me a near 20k boost in dmg to 90k plus i had near max lr.
nm was nothing memorable either, there was a couple bosses i used blizz or meteors for but it was mostly my rabies and its been weeks now I cant quite remember. I will be slowly working through hell my rabies dmg is 150k at lvl 89?
he has:
+4 rabies helm
ormus robes socketed with gul
+3 shape ammy
+1 druid ring 2x
+1 boots/belt/gloves
andariel is psn immune and died to blizz
ill be sure to update after all of a2 (no tomb openers in hurr)

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 4:06 am 

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im thinkin the sorb idea isnt such a good one.

First balance the skills as they are , I've built every poison build with the acception of necro this season. And im workin my way through norm now on one stopping and testing as I go in each act with level / area appropriate gear.

So far to fix druids being super op all u need to do is take the level 78 axe and cut out one socket so that druids dont become op at 78. Also add in a level 95 rabies weapon thats capable of matching it. The build itself is not op, the gear is. It's just scaled wrong. Pierce is everything to poison and if you remove just a little bit, it has drastic ramifications for the build.

Javazons i found to be about the same str as rabies but because of the super decoy thing you are unstoppable, u just pop that thing out there and let it tank while it copies whatever hits its immunities....diablo immune to fire......main damage fire......as an example....the decoy has such a low cast delay and its so tough that you dont need brains or skill, just cast decoy bo attack till the decoy dies at end of timer and recast repeat. I even know sc guys who claim to use fire mercs to kill hell andy (ive tried and cant copy this so far solo) but i have no doubts that it can be done.

Necromancer im just starting on, however he needs a life boost (1-2) percent per hardpoint or possibly some other tanky type skill built into poison strike , after all your basically going toe to toe with things for a short period of time. I'll admit it , i died the first four tries this season on one because i walked it instead of getting a little help to max out boneshield first. This time got some buds to help me past act one. I got 65 block and its helping alot, and max bone sheild is sweet, but im still taking 1/2 life hits from trash, mostly i suspect because i had to invest so heavily in str and dex to wear decent armor and actually connect / block consistently. I kind of visualize poison strike as a boss killing skill because it IS single target with no spread. So thats how im gonna play. On the upside its rather exciting fighting trash when u hit a unique by surprise.

thats what needs fixed with poison as I see it. Once u have these balanced, THEN mess with sorbs.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:00 am 

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Pappy wrote:
So far to fix druids being super op all u need to do is take the level 78 axe and cut out one socket so that druids dont become op at 78.


What lvl 78 axe are we talking about? On blue's site I see only one at that lvl range:

Runemaster
Ettin Axe

One-Handed Axe (Range 2)
Damage: 180-328
Required Level: 78
Required Strength: 158
Durability: 48
Speed: [0]

+3 to Druid Skill Levels
+30% Increased Attack Speed
+350% Enhanced Damage
Socketed (4)
Cannot be Frozen

And I kinda' fail to see how it can be overpowered, say vs a 6 socketed white crystal sword with uber emeralds in.
We talking about some other wep or blues site is wrong or I'm missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:12 pm 

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i dunno how much hp andy has in hell compared to hell moloch but my blizz merc can kill hell moloch so maybe they can kill andy?


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:14 pm 
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we also killed hell moloch with fire mercs (on our untwinked play through at the start of the season) + spirit wolf/blade spam

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:02 pm 

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Zons aren't powerhouses because 2 plague javs kill bosses, it's because decoy is up the entire time which allows them to solo anything in the game that isn't immune to them. Sorb will only lower the damage, and as I said in that other thread, it won't be by much for the top tier poison zons where as every other build will suffer greatly.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:49 pm 

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ehh screw it all nerf all damage to zero and we can all stand in act 1 then no one will cry about over powered builds lol


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:37 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
we also killed hell moloch with fire mercs (on our untwinked play through at the start of the season) + spirit wolf/blade spam


So how is spamming wolf or blades any different than decoy really? However I don't think it makes sense to get rid of those. Here is how I see it. Changes were made to the patch. So be it. It's done. SC HU is what it is. If you want more challenge play hc. If your bored now bc you have created a massively op char on sc and now your bored, then go to hc. Doesn't matter what patch changes you do. If HU is a SC mod then being able to start over from where you died just means in time you will become op. The season started. Changes were made and now that people are bored bc they have massively op chars they now what new changes. If this is you then go to hc. If you are on hc and that is you then you are one of few. I just think its ridiculous to change things halfway through the patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:10 pm 

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los chars and samhein destroy decoy under one second baal sorta too


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Quote:
So how is spamming wolf or blades any different than decoy really?


i didn't say it was?

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:03 pm 

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Samhein dies in 1 decoy, maybe 2.

Los obviously kills things in one hit, that's how they were designed.

Decoy is a single cast, wolves/blades require you to spam them over and over allowing for little to no movement and offense in between.

Baal doesn't kill decoy, it's just he doesn't really sit on it so it's meaningless. Good against the imba tentacles(the only real thing other than the wyrm that is difficult in baal).


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:26 pm 

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I have to agree with Angel here in terms of decoy.

While i think the damage/pierce of poison zons is over the top, i think the decoy is right up there as an offender in terms of how strong they are. With their ability to tank well, they allow the zon to do both the tanking and damage of a boss at the same time and have no issues whatsoever.

I think both aspects need to be looked at.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:36 am 

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muleofal wrote:
the decoy is right up there as an offender in terms of how strong they are. With their ability to tank well, they allow the zon to do both the tanking and damage of a boss at the same time and have no issues whatsoever.

Regardin' this

1. Can decoy be made to ignore life buffs and only be based of BASE amazon health? It seems decoy double dips on the health. As in, amazon gets life buffed. Decoy gets buffed amazon life as base, multiplies it by slvl, THEN decoy ALSO receives external life buffs further multiplying decoy health. THEN decoy 'absorbs' stats of the monster hitting it (i.e, mana burn, magic resistant, stone skin...etc) to make a beefy tank.

2. If you tackle decoy, you must 'fix' the other spammable summons too. This could be made by multypling the damage act end bosses do to summons, something like x64 will defo 'fix' stuffs considering the aoe dmg most bosses spit out.

3. If the above changes go through, melees need to be made viable vs hell bosses (outside the aid of a healadin)


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:07 am 
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Quote:
This could be made by multypling the damage act end bosses do to summons, something like x64 will defo 'fix' stuffs considering the aoe dmg most bosses spit out.
No need, changing delay will fix it. 1sec is way too low. Blades need their hp fixed - it's flat hp multiplied by oak and bo, they unlikely wolfs can survive more than 1 sec in meph's hurricane.
+ doing that summoners won't be needed anymore - maxed grizzly/golems are ok but not OP, they have already 8/10sec delay and they would die under 1 sec?


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:07 pm 

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I don't understand how people go off topic to talk about decoy when this post is related to poison nerfing. Blue has no idea what he is doing. The guy is just in la la land prancing around with his numbers. He will devastate every poison build prior to massive twinkage. Let me repeat. EVERY poison build PRIOR to MASSIVE TWINKAGE.

The kills the playability of any poison builds. It also destroys venom, completely. The skill is utterly useless now.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:53 pm 

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Lee wrote:
I don't understand how people go off topic to talk about decoy when this post is related to poison nerfing. Blue has no idea what he is doing. The guy is just in la la land prancing around with his numbers. He will devastate every poison build prior to massive twinkage. Let me repeat. EVERY poison build PRIOR to MASSIVE TWINKAGE.

The kills the playability of any poison builds. It also destroys venom, completely. The skill is utterly useless now.

thus making all chars useless so as stated before just nerf em all to 0 damage and call it a day. and for the other ppl talking about the changed to phys damage well then have said they found a solution but yet to be put into effect so makes it mute point


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Personally, I believe the design of poison absorbs (especially @ 33%-40%) is a bad one. It doesn't hit the target problems, but rather every aspect of poison damage.
It's kind of like dropping a nuclear bomb on a highly populated city to kill a small group of rebels. You'll succeed in killing the rebels, but there are definitely better ways to go about the situation.


Poison Zons, once twinked, are absolute powerhouses. It's a combination of high damage, amazing recastable tank, and the ability to apply poison damage with zero repercussions.
However, untwinked, their damage isn't the most incredible in the world. It's still strong, and quite a good build, but its not the absolute powerhouse you see 95-99 Zons at. This is because, as anyone who's played an elemental character knows, your power pretty much triples once you hit 95+. The availability of passive pierce end-game alone usually doubles your damage output.


What the poison absorb model does is severely punish untwinked Poison, while pretty much giving twinked poison a slap on the wrist. If you're killing a boss in 30 seconds with your super twinked poison Zon, even effectively reducing your damage by 80% means you'll be killing a boss in 150 seconds. An extra two minutes is sort of significant nerf, but the problems lies in what it does to untwinked characters.

If it takes a untwinked poison character five minutes to kill a boss, it would result in a 25 minute boss fight. Even if you're killing a boss in 3 minutes untwinked, it would result in a 15 minute boss fight, which is still brutal.


As it's been said in this thread, utterly destroying untwinked Poison builds should not happen. We're already getting pretty scarce on viable boss-killing builds, and I don't think many want 15+ minute boss fights. This is solely my opinion, but dynamic boss fights are much more entertaining (such as Darkness, LoS, Samhein) than a grueling endeavor. I'd rather a boss have the ability to kill my character rather than fighting a boss that can hardly scratch me for 10+ minutes.

Actual Suggestions:
Anyway, to tone down poison damage, my biggest suggestion would be to tinker with the actual skill damage. This would allow you to hit the target skills (Rabies & Plague Javelin, possibly PStrike ) without destroying the untwinked viability of poison damage or hurting the already hurting Venom skill.

From what I've seen just playing poison builds, the damage tiers for the skills get incredibly high as your skills reach higher and higher levels. I'm not knowledgeable about tinkering with skill damage, but is there any way to lower this and make it a bit more linear towards end-game?
If you could lower the higher damage tiers, this would result in a big cut in end-game damage, while not utterly destroying untwinked Poison builds.

The problem of course, is shooting for the correct numbers of end-game damage. Personally, I think Plague Javelin should hit ~200k fully twinked for damage. This would be a large cut of damage from what I've seen Plague Jav fully twinked for (~450k). Plague Javelin should be the WEAKEST of the poison skills, due to its relative safety and ease of applying.

200k fully twinked is roughly 45% of 450k. This is obviously a very significant damage nerf that does not affect untwinked poison damage (if you can alter the damage scaling tiers). Similar measures should be taken for Rabies and Poison Strike, albeit not as severe due actually needing to get into someones face and needing AR to apply. Poison Strike, imo, deserves the least of the nerfs, as Necromancers are fragile as hell and have the most trouble applying poison.
Of course, what number you decide to reduce them to is subjective, I'm mainly advocating the method in general, not so much my exact numbers.

If it's possible, I think tinkering with the damage scaling of poison would be a more favorable option that implementing poison absorbs. It would hit poison where its blatantly overpowered (End-game) while still retaining poison builds' viability through-out the game. It also would not have any negative repercussions on Venom, meaning less energy can be spent on rebuilding that skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:53 pm 

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I agree with Zac's post. There has to be emphasis placed upon tier nerfing and possible SOME boss abs rather than a huge 30-40% abs put into effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 2:58 am 
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Quote:
If it takes a untwinked poison character five minutes to kill a boss, it would result in a 25 minute boss fight. Even if you're killing a boss in 3 minutes untwinked, it would result in a 15 minute boss fight, which is still brutal.
Because poison is only viable boss killer, yes.
Why not remove other ele abs then? Imo whole charm thing should have lvl req 85lvl so it only affect hell bosses. I agree that 40% abs on norm for 40k/70k plague/rabies can make these chars not FOTM anymore but other elements now have to deal with it. You can try compare 100k over 8sec unwinked with cold sorcs with 40% cold abs having to shoot every 2-3 per sec during hell diablo fight. Either remove/lower all ele abs or add psn abs.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:05 am 

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Everyone is forgetting the actual time people spend getting these uber geared chars to 99 and shards brain heart.
IF ppl want to spend a month+ or so getting perfect gear and farming every shard brain heart and getting to 99. to get that high damage why not let them have that reward?

i mean my zon in normal does 141k lvl 70, yes good gear. so by 99 hell a5 perfect gear shards other items it should be 200k max?

I dont know how necros hit any bosses for strike [20kar]w/o dying got mine to 100 sucked compared to my zon


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:52 am 
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I too really worry about dropping a nuke on all psn builds, which is why I put up this thread. I want to be sure that we aren't taking all the fun out of the builds.

Abominae wrote:
From what I've seen just playing poison builds, the damage tiers for the skills get incredibly high as your skills reach higher and higher levels. I'm not knowledgeable about tinkering with skill damage, but is there any way to lower this and make it a bit more linear towards end-game?
If you could lower the higher damage tiers, this would result in a big cut in end-game damage, while not utterly destroying untwinked Poison builds.

This is what I have been working on for the past few days, but it is pretty damn tedious and annoying. I am having a hard time getting an accurate mathematical model for the dmg so that I can quickly tweak it without having to open/close diablo over and over again. Unlike normal dmg, psn dmg combines the rate and duration to give you the dmg output. The skills.txt all deal in rates, so I then have to convert the rate using this little java calculator (http://blue.arimyth.com/Poisonmancer.html) before I can see if my model is accurate.

My current guesstimation is that changing the 5 skill tiers from:
Poison Jav from 45/77/130 (min & max) to 40/60/110
Plague Jav from 36/64/102 (min & max) to 32/60/95

Is about right, but that really is just a first stab and I don't want to put it in to play without some real understanding.

I was also leaning towards a max of 20% absorb rather than 40% absorb to ease the blow. That would put most sub-bosses in the 15% psn absorb range, or maybe even at 10% and leave 20% for big hitters like baal, diablo and samhiem (he may get the full 40% as his mobility really makes him a sucker for psn dmg). I need to spend some more time with PureRage's adjusted file to really get a feel for that. My first impressions are that the dmg isn't really getting knocked down by 80% - more like 40%, so I wonder if there is some weird interaction where psn can never heal. Its all a new variable, so I am just not sure what is going on there.

Then there is the problem of psn clouds. I am not 100% sure yet that the cloud dmg is being controlled by skills.txt or missles.txt - so I might tweak skills and leave super-stinker clouds from the java trail.

All in all - its a complex, messy problem. Due to that, I am inclined to go light handed on the nerf stick and will probably get it a bit wrong this round and need to further refine it with another patch.

Abominae wrote:
Personally, I think Plague Javelin should hit ~200k fully twinked for damage. This would be a large cut of damage from what I've seen Plague Jav fully twinked for (~450k). Plague Javelin should be the WEAKEST of the poison skills, due to its relative safety and ease of applying.

Cool - appreciate you tossing out an estimate, gives me a number to work with. I also agree on it being weaker than builds that need to get up front and in the bosses's face (rabies, necro). I have been playing a psn zon through norm A1 & A2 and the character is very easy to play and very easy to keep bosses psn'd. I was having a pretty easy time of it with just emeralds in a 3 socket white jav, but once I got 3x tal in a broken heart it was monster.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:33 am 

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samhein is fast as hell how does his mobility make him a sucker for psn? try to use psn strike on him with a necro lol. i have 19k ar on my zon and have a hard time hitting him or keeping him from healing and thats with using inner sight -1240 base defense


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:16 am 
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blinky99 wrote:
samhein is fast as hell how does his mobility make him a sucker for psn? try to use psn strike on him with a necro lol.

I didn't have much of a problem against him with my old psn necro several ladders ago. Clay/decrep to slow him down and then golem tossing to mess with his AI. Casting delays have been kinda screwed up on golems since then, but you can probably do the blade thing.

But ya - necro probably will have a harder time against him than rabies or java. Still better than melee though with sammy's annoying iron maiden.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:28 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
easy drama queen.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Clown wrote:
and for the other ppl talking about the changed to phys damage well then have said they found a solution but yet to be put into effect so makes it mute point

what? its being put into effect isnt it? not everyone can spend every waking hour working on this you know an as there is only gonna be 1 update, i think its best if time is taken to adjust some other issues too like the MB sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:13 pm 

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a 40% psn nerf isnt going to destroy poison build(I dont count venom here because the fact that you need to hit twise every second means a fuckton of counters wich is already a problem).
Sure its going to make it harder(longer fights=higher chance of dying), and people are complaining that this game is too easy so....
And if melee will be able to do damage while poison is nerfed then it should probably balance out a little, wont it?

I did diablo in nightmare with a psn zon on my kicksin, and we were just able to kill him the 2 of us, even though it was a 5 player spawn(people got to learn not to hit all the seals, seriously). To me thats kinda op...I dont know if he was twinked but if we'd single spawned it then we'd probably would have managed to kill him way easyer. And as far as I know there are other builds that can kill bosses.

I'm not saying all psn should be nerfed but amazon psn damage should be at least :P

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:41 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Clown wrote:
and for the other ppl talking about the changed to phys damage well then have said they found a solution but yet to be put into effect so makes it mute point

what? its being put into effect isnt it? not everyone can spend every waking hour working on this you know an as there is only gonna be 1 update, i think its best if time is taken to adjust some other issues too like the MB sin.


A few posts above this one Blue says he might have to do another patch later for poison. I would rather have one patch than multiple. I mean whats the point in leveling and building a pois char then if you are going to patch and then might have to repatch? Its like the same w the runewords geddon and valor...you spend all this time to find runes and make the best char for the gear and now its going to be nerfed. So not only will you lose the zod but all the time for a build that wont do the damage you built it for. I would rather we take longer to make sure the patch is tested and correct than to do multiple patches afterward. Based on the votes I think the community would rather we wait to make changes until the next reset...but sounds like we aren't going to listen to that vote. So if we aren't going to wait can we just try to do one patch. Its a serious waste of time otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 8:10 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Clown wrote:
and for the other ppl talking about the changed to phys damage well then have said they found a solution but yet to be put into effect so makes it mute point

what? its being put into effect isnt it? not everyone can spend every waking hour working on this you know an as there is only gonna be 1 update, i think its best if time is taken to adjust some other issues too like the MB sin.

dunno is it being put into effect seems like least a month or more since steel did the math and showed blue how to make the changes and no i dont expect u or anyone else to spend all there time on this more to the point is maybe u guys shouldnt have messed with it without knowing more about the game its self since now we got least one class of chars that are useless and now u guys want to make another class pointless


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:24 pm 
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Clown - you are a moron. Welcome to my ignore list.
For your reference: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3829

It has been 22 days since I posted that. Working on the psn adjustments have taken more time than anticipated, but I am still roughly on schedule.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:53 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Clown - you are a moron. Welcome to my ignore list.
For your reference: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3829

It has been 22 days since I posted that. Working on the psn adjustments have taken more time than anticipated, but I am still roughly on schedule.

well im glad we can get back too u calling ppl names but i was not refering to ur post i was refering to steels post that is farther back than urs list so i guess that makes u the moron not only this time but the last time u decided we needed fixs that only a handful wanted and we got this unbalanced patch that u called balanced and im not trying to say that your work that u have put in has not been substantial but mass does not make it correct and pig headed ignorance that u have shown over and over any time any one says that you not doing what the community wants u start name calling and acting 5 so if the best u can do is call me a moron and iggy me well that also is nothing new so do as u like not like you listen to me or any others who dont see it your way you are just the same as the slavers in the early years of the freedom fight .......................................................any way text block that is pointless
we already know u will do what u want and say its for the good of all


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Quote:
dunno is it being put into effect seems like least a month or more since steel did the math and showed blue how to make the changes


Maybe if folks didn't bitch and moan at every fucking turn things would have happened sooner?

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:17 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
dunno is it being put into effect seems like least a month or more since steel did the math and showed blue how to make the changes


Maybe if folks didn't bitch and moan at every fucking turn things would have happened sooner?

well kevin think u better look at past post also this is the first time i have said anything on the melee issue and most the reason i said anything about it was to point out the fact that nothing has been done other than the math when blue him self pointed out while calling me names that its a very simple server side fix no major patching needed


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:50 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
dunno is it being put into effect seems like least a month or more since steel did the math and showed blue how to make the changes


Maybe if folks didn't bitch and moan at every fucking turn things would have happened sooner?


Oh because it would be much better if we all stayed quiet and let Blue ruin the mod, right? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:31 am 

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From my deeply unscientific tests f poison between amazon (plague javelin) and nec (poison nova), amazon deals x5 the poison damage that the nec can pump at comparable slvls .

Comparing these because they'r similar in gameplay

Adding poison absorbs will keep amazons in check but will neuter necs. Didn't check rabies druids but I expect them to be in the same range as necs.

That being said, it seems the current poison sorb attempt implementation is not working fully. My tests against norm hatestorm show a ~5% decrease of amazon poison dmg, while nec poison is unaffected. Is as if amazon was being hit with a bit more poison length duration penalty vs the boss with the 'hotfix', while nec wasn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:29 am 
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@up, you installed it wrong. viewtopic.php?p=32304#p32304
Quote:
Adding poison absorbs will keep amazons in check but will neuter necs. Didn't check rabies druids but I expect them to be in the same range as necs.
Psn dagger has higher psn damage than any other skill. Nova is for trash, and trash won't get psn abs.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:36 am 

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Steel wrote:
@up, you installed it wrong. viewtopic.php?p=32304#p32304
Quote:
Adding poison absorbs will keep amazons in check but will neuter necs. Didn't check rabies druids but I expect them to be in the same range as necs.
Psn dagger has higher psn damage than any other skill. Nova is for trash, and trash won't get psn abs.


Psn dagger also requires you to get into melee distance of a boss without oak, lycan and crappy ar.

Amazons don't have to get into melee range of a boss and don't need Ar.

Druids have Oak+Lycan even though they need AR.

Makes sense that nec have the highest on PSN strike but it doesn't mean anything when put into play.

An effective char with less damage does more than a non-effective char with more damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:45 am 
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AR boost to skill then? I was telling this to ppl that they could use an eth rune in their weapon for -50%boss def but seems everyone goes uber emeralds and I can understand that, more pierce looks better even if you don't hit. Plague should be reworked. Spawn cloud only when hit and not leave a trail.


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:54 am 

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Steel wrote:
@up, you installed it wrong. viewtopic.php?p=32304#p32304

I see your pix, and raise you mine:

viewtopic.php?p=33213#p33213

Observed a difference on plague java, no difference on poison nova. I'll try to tinker with the test setup more, but I'm not confident it'll be any difference.

Imo, skill re-balancing adjusting will be the best fix.


Edit:
blue wrote:
If Poison absorb clears its testing (click here to help test) and is added to the game, this will result in an

80% drop in the amount of damage that players will do against the Prime Evils & Samheim
66% drop in damage against all sub-bosses
80% drop against "Class" bosses which include Seal bosses before Diablo, Minions before Baal, Azmodan & Belial (A&B), and Land of Shadow champions.


for the absorb test to be successful, I understood a 66% dmg reduction must be seen on the applied damage:

as in roughly, vs a mini-boss (i.e hatestorm):
Full: |----------------------------------------------| health bar
Live:|-----------|________________________| <--1 hit that took 70% of boss life
Test:|-----------------------------------|_______| <--same hit encountered absorbs


Vs act end bosses (roughly):

Full: |----------------------------------------------| health bar
Live:|-----------|________________________|
Test:|-----------------------------------------|___|

As I know, absorbs are calculated last, after all the resists, reductions..etc. So the effect should be visible with any gear.
On my tests i did see a reduction for poison amazon, but nowhere near the expected amount, and no effect on nec nova


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:49 am 
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Lee wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
dunno is it being put into effect seems like least a month or more since steel did the math and showed blue how to make the changes


Maybe if folks didn't bitch and moan at every fucking turn things would have happened sooner?


Oh because it would be much better if we all stayed quiet and let Blue ruin the mod, right? :roll:


A problem only needs to be brought up once, how many times has it ben said that phys res will be lowered? People still fucking moan about it and ask over and over again whats gonna be done about it and complkain when it isn't done quick enough. You do realise that because of all that shit theres now 1 less person actually helping out right? In other words, repeated winging has done nothing but slow progress.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:52 am 

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i used an eth in my wand and still sucked at hitting bosses 19k ar, 14kdefense w/ boneshield up

maybe allow decrep/LR to lower enemy defense? or more of a boost to AR on psn strike or ias? I liked playing one it just sucked always dying to boss counters or never being able to hit lol swing swing swing dead or swing hit connects dead to counters

do los chars really need to be buffed? if psn skill dmg is being reduced as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:22 am 
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quick update on this topic. I have been doing some work on my own and was fortunate enough to have a conversation with Baerk (a few of you old timers may remember him) who confirmed my suspicion that the unique boss charms are pretty damn buggy and are being influenced by -resists.

In other words, the -res that you have on your character is impacting not only the boss's resists, but their absorbs as well - which is quite frankly crazy. It also introduces a whole new layer to this analysis. It also means that bosses CAN have more than 40% absorb from a charm, because that absorb rate is being lowered by -res on players gear to get it below the healing rate (at least in theory).

Bottom line, I am going to scale back absorb tweaks and save that until there can be a much larger balance adjustment involving -resists on gear. I think it is also wise to avoid adding psn absorb in at this time as quite frankly it is hard to know just what the f*ck it will do to things since those charms are so bug infested.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramification of adding poison absorb to the game
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:41 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
please be specific and include your math and figures for why you think this is appropriate.


My zonny ( I would say well off geared from a lvl 95 perspective) does 251k damage over 8 seconds or ~31k per second, (with SOB ( will be 310k at lvl 99)) which is less than a tk sorce, meteor sorce, any caster druid, and has a bit less - res then other casters. (i have all charms save baal shard)

after the nerf would do ~6k dps. which is ~1/4 the damage of my half geared lvl 79 fire sorce fire damage (which has yet to be maxed because of lvl and lack of quests). - quite a rough comparsion ( lvl 95 items, all charms - baal shard vs half geared, no charms, unmaxed skills)

After seeing this, I would hate to see what a venom sin, pz necro, or rabies druid would do, considering that Pz zon > then (not in damage, but in usefullness, and practicality.)

I do agree with a nerf to psn damage, however to achieve perfection in any sence, small changes are the key. 80% is outragous.

IMO i do not feel that the damage is the problem with psn - all other lvl 95 chars ( besides melee ofc) can clear trash faster than pz zon. I think the benefit to psn is hiting something once and running around letting the damage sink in while say a meteor sorce, would have to have the boss stand still to do the same damage.

I am glad to see people working on this, but lets not use a eth BOTD Tmaul as the nerf hammer. implement a small change and monitor from there. If the effect is not as great as you like, further implement. dont start at 80%...


Note: only read first post and 80% pz damage reduction.

Would like to test this as im pretty good at SP editing. was not aware that this was out, ill have to do this when i get home sometime.


MY FIX TO THE PZ ZON - swap the damage between disease spray and plague. if ur gonna do that much damage, u should at least have to go toe to toe with these bosses, if not, this will be a 1/2 to a 1/3 damage loss for PZ ZONS only, saving other psn builds and not requiring much modification. - the only problem to this (for me at least) is that it doesnt seem like disease spray works half the time ( i used to use this when i start to run outta javas)


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