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 Post subject: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:32 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
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Plus with skulls taking a nerf to 5% and the str nerf on gear it take away from his tanking ability. the hdin is not a typical caster class u have to get up close n personal to u target.


As the hammerdin goes, he has it rough. My vita whore hdin last ladder only had like 7k life with self bo endgame. Now, it would be even less w/o str on enigma, and blocking is harder also w/o the dex. Since the guy has no recastable tanks, he's taking the brunt of the attacks.

Imagine trying to tank a sub-boss on a paly without max res, no DR, and no rubies to help his life pool.


Sounded a lot like tanking issues for the most part.


Odd, it seems like your item changes are the direct cause of all those complaints about Hammerdins. The only thing not mentioned in that post is that hammerdins do a fraction of the damage they did last patch.

If Hammerdins still had the bypass, the nerfs to their tanking would be completely understandable. They were an extremely solid class, and a top pick for boss killing. You can still gear out a hammerdin to tank pretty much anything outside of LoS & Samhein in this patch.

Increasing their tanking ability will not make them a good build. It will allow them to stand in front of a boss and deal piss poor damage, eerily similar to how melee is currently (or pretty much how Hammerdins are).

I realize no one understood that taking away the bypass would completely destroy the build, but it did. Without damage, a Hammerdin might as well be a Smiter for the extra 20% DR.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Odd, it seems like your item changes are the direct cause of all those complaints about Hammerdins.

Nothing odd about it, I stated that right in the beginning of this post:
blue_myriddn wrote:
Basically I am not happy with how paladins have come out this patch with the strength requirements.

Now that Hammerdins need to alter their gear to get -magic resist as well as tanking, I see the need to give them a tanking boost. Seems straight forward enough to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:43 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Now that Hammerdins need to alter their gear to get -magic resist as well as tanking, I see the need to give them a tanking boost. Seems straight forward enough to me.


Except it's not straight-forward because Hammerdins will NEVER reach decent damage against bosses, no matter the -mag res. The bypass removed their ability to bypass boss ABSORBS, Blue. This cut their damage by a lot more than half of what they were doing last patch, assuming you even have enough magic pierce to get the boss to 0. If it was just the magic resist, you would still see Hammerdins utterly dominating bosses, as you'd only need ~66%-75% magic pierce to break even with last patch.
When you're rolling a 25k-35k Hammers, it used to be flat, unmitigated. Now that it is cut by absorbs, you will never reach decent damage. I've tested it extensively in single player with complete end-game values of Hammer + Conc, and optimum magic pierce. The build can hardly scratch Hell Andariel, that's fully charmed out (All shards, Heart, Brain, Anni), +8/8 Hammer/Conc Heaven's Will, +4 Helm, 11x perfect Magic Facets, etc.

You're not fixing the build by giving it more life.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:52 pm 

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Without bypassing sorbs the damage they deal to act bosses and even side bosses are so fucking pitiful it's a joke. They do less damage than a bone necro for a harder to aim skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:59 pm 
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I am aware of the magic absorb issue, it is one of the boss charms that is being reduced. With the inability of magic to be lowered by either conviction or LR, I have no idea why Soulmancer thought it wise to give them equivalent absorbs as the other elements.

If you want to help out - give me some numbers for hammer dmg at various states in the game and magic pierce at various states. Then give me similar numbers for a bone necro.

That would save me the time of having to do it myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:44 pm 

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My bone necro does more damage than a hammerdin and can get way more pierce and the damage is still completely useless against bosses.

If you want to test some things, I'd happily test with you, I have the best bone necro in SC.

My bone necro rolls like 15k teeth, 35k spirit and spear, ~100% pierce with engima. Values are slightly higher with templars, about 36 more pierce and a small amount of damage. Spear can go up to ~40k with the unique boots.

I barely scratch act bosses, and most sub bosses aren't going to happen.

Hammerdins are in a far worse boat, and though I don't know the values, they do way less damage, require to be right on top of the enemy, and they have no summons to tank the bosses.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:09 pm 
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skill levels on teeth, spirit, spear?

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:58 am 

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I think 58


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:54 am 
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The problem seems to be that hdins are having the boss held still. keep the boss moving in a small circle and cast a hammer every few steps and you get multiple hits per hammer unlike spear, teeth and bone spirit. You can get 3 hits per hammer if you follow that patern. Just look at baal as an example, he moves alot, so its easier to just run around an area and cast a hammer every few steps. The hammers then cover alot more area and the path's cross each other multiple times.

Nobody ever heard of the hammer dance? shit.

a 20% reduction in mag sorbs will help both builds out. Bone spells struggle in hell against act bosses and always have.

Infact it will double the damage output of the chars against that boss.

Personally I'd rather see the bypass added to foh instead. its a single target spell and can't be used for multiple hits from a single cast (the damage is a constant instead of multiplied by movement)

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:27 am 

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Charge hammering is pretty meh against bosses since the chances of the terrain and AI running into it multiple times are slim at best. Far better to get an assured hit by constantly telestomping.

Either way, magic skills were never balanced damage-wise on opponents being able to sorb it. The only reason hammerdins did decent damage last patch was because of the pierce through the sorb, and even with mass pierce on a bone nec they did pitiful damage. Look at the numbers, 35k spear or 90k meteor with a stacking fire patch that easily hits the damage/frame cap after it stacks up. Another example is TK(60k ish damage at faster frames).

Judging by how much damage hammerdins did last patch, I feel as though removing the magical absorb all-together wouldn't be too overpowering. Remember, they were so strong because they had all of their sockets for defense. Defense has all been nerfed, and now they still have to pull the enemy into negative res.(again, can't socket your shit with rubies/diamonds because you need to roll facets)


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:25 am 

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HDins can still get great -magic resists and maintain high life. War armor, Griffons 3x jeweled -18% Ironward perf -32% 2x wisp -20% Dragonscale 18% Perf Zakarum -10% =98% They have Holy Shield + Higher life than a necro as well. There is no reason why both classes should be compared because they are completely different.

L52 with L52 concentration 34k Hammers.

Gear:

Dragonscale +5
Ironward +5
War +1
Griffon +3
Immortal Flesh +2
Souldrainer +2
Zak +2
+1 Boots

Andy,Dury,Meph,Dia,Baal +5
Anni +1
Samhain +3
LoS +2

L52 Hammers L52 Concentration = 34k Hammers with 98%

U telling me they need a buff? LOL. That's with War armor as well.

Let's look @ the life buff received from War.

L18 Inc stamina + 10% Life inc War 10% Immortal FLesh

= 93% +20% = 113%

Ur only issue would be block but with 34k Hammers and 98% pierce you can KILL any boss in the game easily and you can afford to sacrifice life charms. All you need is somethin else to tank i.e. blades, other summons. Taking direct hits with weak block would hurt but with a pretty high life bar. I'd assume over 25k+ easily with at least 40-50% block you can juv your way through any boss.


Bone necros do ok on bosses but can kill the majority of trash which is what they do. Any modification to enemy boss magic abs or w/e u guys are trying to do will jack up the balance of bone necros completely. They are fine man. They have insane end game damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:40 am 
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you cant compare a pally to a sorc. all a sorc has is damage...
As far as hdin vs trash goes. Who has ever used hammers for trash on a hdin? IIRC it was always tele + merc that dealt with trash. I know my old light merc had everything dead before I could even get 3 hammers off.

I used to solo run A&B on my healer with 10 points in hammers and 1 point conc...
you dont need to charge, just taking a few steps to the side is enough, you get enough frw and you keep the hammers together so they pass close to each other. Tighter hammer "Field" = better damage + more survivability. If you wanna tele into a bosses face and stand there with no problems on a caster, expect to fail.
You do realise they spiral OUTWARDS right?

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:18 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
a 20% reduction in mag sorbs will help both builds out. Bone spells struggle in hell against act bosses and always have.

We are about on the same page here. I am debating between a 15-20% drop and am leaning towards letting it float a bit between different bosses, but might lean closer to the 20% end than the 15%.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:59 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
a 20% reduction in mag sorbs will help both builds out. Bone spells struggle in hell against act bosses and always have.

We are about on the same page here. I am debating between a 15-20% drop and am leaning towards letting it float a bit between different bosses, but might lean closer to the 20% end than the 15%.



20%!!! i need it for my magic zealer lol. Not that i'd be trying and act bosses anytime soon lol...


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:59 pm 

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Quote:
Ur only issue would be block but with 34k Hammers and 98% pierce you can KILL any boss in the game easily and you can afford to sacrifice life charms


You can't kill any fucking boss in the game this patch because of the sorbs.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:02 pm 

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After talking to Abominae I retract my statements about bone necros and paladins. I didn't know that Hammerdins use to bypass Absorbs too. I thought it was just resists. I guess magic abs on bosses needs a nerf.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:45 pm 

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Glad you figured that out. Magic damage is balanced around being lower than elemental, the pierce is balanced around being harder to get than elemental, and you don't have any DoT magic damage spells like you do with fire and poison. Absorbs should be very low or non-existant.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 2:29 am 

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Angel wrote:
Glad you figured that out. Magic damage is balanced around being lower than elemental, the pierce is balanced around being harder to get than elemental, and you don't have any DoT magic damage spells like you do with fire and poison. Absorbs should be very low or non-existant.



Yeah I was surprised to find in making a magic zealer had a much harder time killing things than I thought! Lol. granted i'm only doing around 6-11k magic damage, but with -47 res, I though i'd be RIPPING em away.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:51 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
a 20% reduction in mag sorbs will help both builds out. Bone spells struggle in hell against act bosses and always have.

We are about on the same page here. I am debating between a 15-20% drop and am leaning towards letting it float a bit between different bosses, but might lean closer to the 20% end than the 15%.

I ran some numbers and I think this type of adjustment would be a mistake.

Take a 30k bone spell with 106% magic pierce against Hell Andariel for example (magic res 66%, absorb 40%):

30k * -40% resists on boss = 42k
42k x 40% absorb = 8400

If the resists were dropped 15% down to 25% absorb, you would see:
42k x 25% absorb = 21,000 (150% dmg boost)

That is far too large of an increase to implement casually. I am thinking that adjusting absorbs in the 5-10% range and most is the better policy:

42k x 30% absorb = 16,800 (100% dmg boost)
42k x 35% absorb = 12,600 (50% dmg boost)

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:11 pm 
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30k bone with 106% is 99lvl nec with all end game gear... for andy let's just focus around 17k spear and 50% pierce. Really.
I had a hammerdin in a1cata2 with around 45%pierce and 21k hammers. Got his all gear off and did another chars but I saw how Sesshomaru's 96lvl din performed with a healer and fire dru and it wasn't something you shouldn't write about... fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Didn't know I made this topic, cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Steel wrote:
30k bone with 106% is 99lvl nec with all end game gear... for andy let's just focus around 17k spear and 50% pierce. Really.


Its %based, so it doesn't change. But so you can see:
A 17k bone spell with 50% magic pierce against Hell Andariel for example (magic res 66%, absorb 40%):

17k * 16% resists on boss = 14.3k
14.3k x 40% absorb = 2856

14.3k x 25% absorb = 7140 (150% dmg boost)
14.3k x 30% absorb = 5712 (100% dmg boost)
14.3k x 35% absorb = 4284 (50% dmg boost)

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Didn't know I made this topic, cool.

Sorry - i split it from the pala str topic as it seemed to be a different subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:04 pm 
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It does matter if you consider all bosses HPs are around 900k hp + 100% on single spawn(I'd really know the exact number, maybe run with hacked char doing 100k dmg to 0 res/abs boss should do it). Having less magic abs on a1 bosses lead to better damage scale on later bosses. Now 17k spear does the same damage to andy and baal, which isn't right because as you progress you should do less damage to better bosses(we're near HP limit here so res/abs is the way to balance stuff)
Let Andy have 15% abs and go up by 2,3,4,5% with every act?
Having the static 35% abs on all bosses means the more you progress the more damage you do to the MAJOR mobs, which shouldn't be present.

For example with random times/damage and generaly it's just a theory - having the 30%abs on all bosses:
17k spear you kill Andy within 5min?
20k spear you kill Duriel within 4min?
24k spear you kill Meph withing 3.5min?
I hope you'll get my point.


Last edited by Steel on Fri May 06, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Let Andy have 15% abs and go up by 2,3,4,5% with every act?

15% is far too low. I am more in mind of:
Steel wrote:
I am thinking that adjusting absorbs in the 5-10% range and most is the better policy

In other words rather than every boss currently having 40% - Andy would start around 30% and Baal would end at 40% and the bosses in between would fall in between those values (Dury 32%, Meph 34%, Diablo 36%).

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Quote:
In other words rather than every boss currently having 40% - Andy would start around 30% and Baal would end at 40% and the bosses in between would fall in between those values (Dury 32%, Meph 34%, Diablo 36%).
That could do it. Abs and res are the way to balance this game as we're limited by hp cap. Later bosses are more aggressive and faster - I remember the first 2, Andy and Duriel being the easier always, because they can be easily fooled by blades and other decoys while meph and others have AOE spells to dispatch all summs in one shot. So having rather easy 2 early boss and rather weak gear to face them you should somehow balance abs% = dmg. Saying that 40% is ok bcos you CAN have 40k spear isn't right. We should always have in mind teams that don't twink their chars - now untwinked meteo/nec team can do wonders for example, so fire shouldn't be abs% lowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 2:34 pm 

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Steel wrote:
Quote:
Saying that 40% is ok bcos you CAN have 40k spear isn't right.


Agreed. Let GG builds be GG.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Just FYI, I didn't say that though.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:04 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Just FYI, I didn't say that though.
Sorry. It was my manipulation. Ofc we're discussing lowering magic abs here (light seems ok? I DOUBT) so anything below 40% is main goal. BUT you do realize that even without knowing that mag abs is capped to 40%, Soulmancer set all abs 5% per acts to 55% total.
Back to what I quoted - if we're saying that 15% abs on andy is too much we should know that average a1 hell bone nec/hdin won't do much damage to her anyway as at that point all gear is vita/res focused.
Personally I'd like to see Angel and Abominae arguments to that. They seem to do the right for this season.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Soulmancer set all abs 5% per acts to 55% total.

Ya - that was just goofy. I think he didn't realize how it worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:57 pm 

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On Andy I was completely focused on res opposed to pierce, without bone prison being so 1pt imbalanced I'd never be able to do her. I did some testing with Blue the other day, and after a while I got the feeling like he thought his opinion was far to champion to be influenced by anyone else because he's balanced pure bred games that no one really played like empire earth and age of kings.

I get the odd feeling like Blue is going to balance the values I showed him(completely 100% perfect necro) to what he sees fit, which will in the end leave just about every lower necro still doing garbage damage to bosses. Just like poison zons are imba once you fully equip them, it was NOT like that first play through and the only thing really making them imbalanced(prior to end game gear which does make them imba in terms of damage) is decoy values being so retardedly strong with double stacking oak and BO. Should a decoy be able to 1 cast tank hell sub bosses and be strung together and tank act bosses? No.

Couple that with all the dodge/block to make your EHP go through the roof, add that with imba damage once you fully equip, and hey everyone is going to make the character.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:56 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I ran some numbers and I think this type of adjustment would be a mistake.

Take a 30k bone spell with 106% magic pierce against Hell Andariel for example (magic res 66%, absorb 40%):

30k * -40% resists on boss = 42k
42k x 40% absorb = 8400

If the resists were dropped 15% down to 25% absorb, you would see:
42k x 25% absorb = 21,000 (150% dmg boost)

That is far too large of an increase to implement casually. I am thinking that adjusting absorbs in the 5-10% range and most is the better policy:

42k x 30% absorb = 16,800 (100% dmg boost)
42k x 35% absorb = 12,600 (50% dmg boost)



Back to talking about Hammers for a second, their damage was cut to, at the least, 1/5 of what it used to be this patch. (Gearing to pierce into the negatives is very hard for a Hammerdin and comes with major sacrifice, just hitting 0% resist is pretty much your goal).

You would need a 400% damage increase to break even with last patch. Since Hammerdins were such an incredibly strong build, I would personally shoot for doing 300% more damage than they are doing now (or 4/5 of their damage last patch). This along with the nerf to their tanking in general and having to sacrifice tanking gear for pierce, should be a significant nerf, but not one that will completely break the class.
Obviously you can tweak the numbers to what you feel is correct, but I just wanted to emphasize that Hammerdins are dealing with the fact they're doing ~20% of their former damage, so something like a 100-200% increase in damage isn't really that insane.


As far as Bone Necromancers go, I can't comment. I've never built one, and rarely play with them so I have pretty much no knowledge or experience about them.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:10 am 
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best solutions for hdins is what i said should been done at the reset was to lower the synergies to 15% and leave the bypass.with all the nerfs to defensive stats and str a fully gear hdin should do around 30k, that would of been a 12k reduction from my decked out din last laddder.


i think the magic sorb should be set at these levels til a new patch or reset

andy 13%
dury 15%
Meph 19%
diablo 22%
baal 25%

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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:43 am 

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Sesshomaru wrote:
best solutions for hdins is what i said should been done at the reset was to lower the synergies to 15% and leave the bypass.with all the nerfs to defensive stats and str a fully gear hdin should do around 30k, that would of been a 12k reduction from my decked out din last laddder.


i think the magic sorb should be set at these levels til a new patch or reset

andy 13%
dury 15%
Meph 19%
diablo 22%
baal 25%


These numbers are far more acceptable; the actual evidence of me killing andariel was done with a completely decked out necro(literally nothing more can be upgraded on him to increase dps) and that probably is leading you to believe lowering the sorb by a decent amount would increase the damage too significantly.

Quote:
As far as Bone Necromancers go, I can't comment. I've never built one, and rarely play with them so I have pretty much no knowledge or experience about them.


Necros can pull surprisingly high numbers on sub bosses and earlier act bosses, but the problem is without bone prison the counters rip you. Surprisingly, 1 pt bone prison with 1 in each of the synergies is enough to tank hell andy, a fuckload of sub bosses(even the baal minions, but prison bugs out the game and forces you to remake). Anything past andy though, in terms of act bosses, doesn't work well at all since they instant die.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:27 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:16 am
Posts: 90
the problem is bone necros are way to imba at pvp, we need magic resistance on items or maybe a huge nerf on the damage dealt at pvp by necromancers :)


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 Post subject: Re: Adjustment to boss Magic Absorb
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:31 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:02 pm
Posts: 1627
hehe, pvp maniac :P but this mod is (being) balanced toward pvm. Maybe add cube formula to roll LoS hearts into some pvp gear.


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