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 Post subject: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Continuation from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3503

Basically I am not happy with how paladins have come out this patch with the strength requirements. Dividing between str, dexterity and vitality is a hard balance for the character and I think they need some sort of edge. Both druids and barbs have substantial life buffs and/or summons. While there are other ideas I have for boosting paladin shields, the time for that is neither here nor now.

I do have a new approach towards the strength problem though that I have been kicking around since April 1: give Paladins 6 points each time they level up. Players can choose to invest this entirely in vitality and gain an edge there, or they can invest it in strength to access higher end gear. By level 100, this will equate to +100 "free" strength for the build, which is a nice little perk.

This is done simply enough by editing charstats.txt and changing a 5 to a 6, so even a non-code monkey like me can do it. It is NOT retroactive, so existing paladins will not get a sudden boost of stat points. The fact that it doesn't trigger until you level up makes me feel a bit better about it introducing potential bugs.

What I would like is for someone people to tinker around with this and see if it will introduce any technical problems or bugs. Single player test it and so forth.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:24 pm 
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it wont cause any problems besides curent paladins missing out on a few stat points. I doubt folks will be bothered about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:42 pm 
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i skimmed but 6 pts per lvl i like that idea

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:02 pm 

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I only see this giving paladins another 100 vitality/free stat points. Paladins can already get some of the highest life in the game. Barbs&Druids may have life buffs but paladin's have their auras. A good aura bitch is invaluable in a lot of situations. Not as good as oak or bo for the party, but good enough that they don't need 100 free stat points to compensate.

The only high strength items I couldn't equip on paladin's that bothered me are some of the scepters. They have huge requirements towards the higher end elites for some of them being caster based. Maybe a simple -req mod on certain uniques, or lowering the strength req a bit on them?

Personally I'd rather see the strength thrown on paladin shields or something before giving out 100 free stat points. The weaker melee builds like zeal and vengeance could definitely use that free strength just to open up some late game gear options. The problem I see with 100 free stats is it's going to buff all the paladin builds when only a few really need it. Healers are easily the most useful&popular paladin build these days, and they sure don't need any free stats. I think some of the weaker paladin builds could use some help, but giving 100 extra stats to any paladin build seems like it would put an even further gap between say healers and a poor lil' zealer or vengeance.

Which paladin builds do you feel need this extra strength? Paladin builds I feel need some love:hammers, zeal, holy auras, vengeance, and maybe a lil source of extra smite dmg. No real idea how to fix hammers easily. Magic absorbs on bosses is what is currently holding hammers back, and removing that would make boners pretty insane vs bosses. Holy auras are decent at the moment only because of the OP OSkill elemental masteries(I'm assuming these are going to be removed at some point). I'd love to see holy auras returned to -20, or at least able to get that high(or higher!) via hard points. Improving zeal's AR&ED is one way to buff both holy auras and zealers at the same time. The passive AR bonus from Blessed Aim hard points could be increased to help zeal out as well. Or dare I suggest some DS on zeal!? Vengeance just sucks because of the way the skill is designed, and if anyone deserves 100 free stats it's this build. Maybe incorporate the strength bonus into some of the skills/builds that really need it like zeal and vengeance?

I understand you're looking for an easy fix, but 6 stats just feels like a band-aid to me. Surely Kevin would be willing to mess around with skill changes like that if you're worried about the extra work. Hmm that may have been more feedback than you were lookin' for. :o


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Agreed on it buffing classes that don't need it.
My healer has one of the largest bulbs in my party as it is in a2 hell and has max block and wearing 190 str gear. for which i use as much + str gear as i can.
If it were to receive a free 100 pts they would surely almost all go to vitality.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:34 pm 
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can always add a synergy to holy shield. every point in veng/zeal grants an extra 2 strength

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:19 pm 
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post some numbers, screenshots, details.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:08 pm 

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Numbers and screenshots? I'm not sure how those are gonna help us with what we already know will happen, but I rarely miss an opportunity to be a smart ass. Here's a shot of me testing my paladin with 100 extra stats.
Image
A few posts up are the details. There's even some discussion in between, feel free to join us! Granted I repeated a few things from the other thread, but my post wasn't complete BS either.

Any which way you chop it, giving 6 stats per level isn't going to go well. Telling us to test something like this is silly, because the consequences are very obvious. A class wide buff like this would skew the balance between not only the builds within the paladin class, but also give paladins in general the option to have greater life than even barbarians. I don't give a shit how bad a class/build sucks no one should be getting life equal to or exceeding barbarians.

barb vita 500x4=2000
lv40 bo/oak+lv20 stamina(453% life)
2000 x 453%=11060 life

paladin vita 600x4=2400
lv40 bo/oak(352% life)
2400 x 352%=10848

I'd like to reiterate which paladin builds you feel need this massive strength boost(or are you just going for the "unique flair" it will add? Auras aren't enough?). This is crucial to the discussion. Perhaps we can come up with a different way to reach the same goal.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:37 pm 
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numbers matter because they put the discussion beyond a "do this because I say it is right".

Your numbers tell me MUCH more than any of the nonsense babble in your previous post (which was about 99% useless). Statements of yours like:

"Paladins can already get some of the highest life in the game."
higher than zons, sorcs and necros. But none of those are melee classes. Lower than druids, barbs and assassins - which are the melee classes. In other words, Paladins have some of the LOWEST life in the game.

Of course, you can give me actual NUMBERS rather than your flippant statements and you can show to me why Paladins "got some of the highest life in the game".

"A good aura bitch is invaluable in a lot of situations."
Here's another winner from you. Oh yes - I have been talking to people and the consensus on the realm is that the characters people like to play the most are bitches. I know, it may surprise some people to hear that since you would have thought that people like to play say psn zons, bone necros, or windy druids - but really, everyone likes to play a bitch. I mean - what could be more fun that sitting on the sidelines and running your aura? That's where the shit is at.

Oh, just one problem - "Not as good as oak or bo for the party,". Sorry man, not only are you as a Paladin going to be a bitch, but shit brotha you are gonna be a second rate bitch too. Sorry about that. What you say? Give me a buff? nah - you don't need it, drrod said that you are good to go.

Then of course there are the contradictions in your post. Who needs free stat points? oh - well, if they are going to be free on items like shields - then ya, paladins need more strength. Oh ya - and maybe people who don't want to just be aura bitches: "The weaker melee builds like zeal and vengeance could definitely use that free strength just to open up some late game gear options". You think MAYBE this is why I am proposing this?

Of course this is going to boost Healers. Duh. Do you really think I need you to point that out to me? Are you simply that arrogant to think that is some magical insight that isn't obvious to everyone? I recognize this isn't an ideal solution, there are quite a few others - but this is not the time for them. Let me repeat what I put in my announcement:
blue_myriddn wrote:
This will not be a comprehensive balance overhaul though, so many balance items that I am aware of will not be fixed with this adjustment. This is due to limitations in a server side patch rather than a full realm reset and download. I also do not want to implement anything that is going to create potential problems as there will not be extensive single player testing of changes.

Got it? If not - read it again.

The rest of your post is just babbling out opinions of yours that are [a] blatantly obvious [b] horribly vague [c] 100% useless. I could answer them all with a simple "well duh..."

As for your numbers, they are based off of ideal situations and ideal circumstances. If you play that way - happy trails, I am glad you are having fun. There is a whole other community out there though and for msot of them they don't have lvl40 BO/Oak running. Run your numbers through characters like this:

http://blue.arimyth.com/images/66-zealpaladin-raqib.jpg
at lvl66 - he would have an additional 66 vitality pushing his life up to 2100. That will make a significant consequence for him - especially when he parties up with some life buffs. - would probably mean almost an extra 1k life for him.

Or this guy:
http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy10 ... hot006.jpg
who at 290 vit would get a similar boost.

It might make the difference between players having fun with Paladins and being frustrated with them.

Sure - it will boost healers, any one with a pulse understands that. Believe me though a high life orb isn't the problem with healers at the moment, so tossing a bit extra there is a consequence I can live with.

Now run off and post somewhere else if you aren't going to be actually useful here. All you are doing is taking up my time, annoying me and delaying when I can get this patch out the door.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:39 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
can always add a synergy to holy shield. every point in veng/zeal grants an extra 2 strength

yep - something like that is certainly well worth looking in to for the next balance patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:57 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
In other words, Paladins have some of the LOWEST life in the game.


100% untrue.
Paladins can get higher life than Druids. They're also completely equal to an Assassin in terms of life. You might want to try knowing something about building a character before you throw around completely false statements.

Meaning:
Barbarian > Assassin = Paladin > Druid > Everyone else. I could go through and dissect your obviously raging post, but I think pointing out one utterly blatant fallacy will be enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:12 am 
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this was a few months or so before the reset, i managed to squeeze another 2k life outa him with better crafted rings and improved charms. I never got him to 99 so didn't get the pally heart on him (cuda hit 40k with heart + brain easily). + druids oak wasn't as high as it could have been (8 skillers short + mising brain an heart)

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:43 am 

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35k life still not good enough for that necro though!!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:47 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
this was a few months or so before the reset

things have changed quite a bit since then.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:55 am 
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The problem is the vast difference in paly/sin hp when there are party lifebuffs in a game as the pally/sin's life is mostly added as base life. Personally I'm fine with absurd hp levels in a well organised party endgame. It gives folks something to shoot for.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:04 am 

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Blue getting butthurt because one of his ideas is pointless and he's called on it? What's new? Blah blah pick my posts apart and quote out of context all you want. It doesn't change the fact that 6 stat points per level on paladin's is a terrible idea that would change little besides give them more life. Paladin's need their skills adjusted/revamped, not band-aid bullshit fixes. I gave you a few ideas about that but unfortunately you can't see through your buttmad.

Here I'll repeat it for you, make sure to skip over this when you quote me! Hammers need either their ignore resists back, increased damage, or the magic absorbs values adjusted. Zealers need at the very least more AR,ED, and DS. Smite will be forever useless now(outside of KB) without an overhaul to the skill or a miraculous return of decent CB values. Holy auras, well ya got me there, those OSkill elemental mastery RWs sure balanced them right up! Vengeance is shit and will probably always be shit. See anything in there about stats or strength? Wait here's a better question, what could 100 free stat points add to any of the above builds? It doesn't matter what high strength gear they can equip or how high the life can go, the skills themselves are useless and will remain that way it seems.

In b4 opinion, opinion, opinion. Yes Blue I like to give my opinion without "numbers", because unlike you, I have a general grasp of how the fucking mod works. I've played more than one character a ladder, with actual groups, not tagging along some rag tag bullshit public SC game that inevitably gets rushed by someone twinked to hell and back. When's the last time you even completed the endgame content, or gone through this mod start to finish untwinked during a reset? You are so clueless it fucking stings to have someone like you in charge.

I've never seen anyone so insanely possessive of a project that wasn't even suppose to be their's in the first place. You take every critique so personal about this mod it's fucking unnerving. Which is strange because you've done little but fuck it up, continue to fuck it up, make plans to fuck it up more, and refuse to take any responsibility for it. You breed hostility towards you constantly because you cannot even give an inch of ground on any subject you even slightly disagree with.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:04 am 
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Barbs/zons will never reach 75% block. Paladins can go base dex and somehow manage that with holyshield - let's say you have to put 60 into dex early. Why need more stats when their survivability is rather higher than other melees. Just because guys run all the time is their problem.
I understand whole topic is to get one of these 230 armors or 120+ scepters possible to wear not losing hp or block. Self synergy to holy shield could be way here - let's say 2str per 1hard into HS, or 3... 4? I've seen several healers that don't even put a single point into it(lol) but never melee char that leaves it 1 - maybe auradins do? Then again you can add synergy to a skill without any downloads for users but they won't know about it if they don't read about it here - requires skilldesc/tbl update as well.
BTW. I'm not sure new guys/some with minor experience will put that extra 20%stat points into str - they just don't know that all end game melee stuff is heavy... or there's no way to get massive str from items. I've seen several guys that said they will wear xx or yy but had 70 str.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:37 am 
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Steel wrote:
Barbs/zons will never reach 75% block. Paladins can go base dex and somehow manage that with holyshield - let's say you have to put 60 into dex early. Why need more stats when their survivability is rather higher than other melees. Just because guys run all the time is their problem.
I understand whole topic is to get one of these 230 armors or 120+ scepters possible to wear not losing hp or block. Self synergy to holy shield could be way here - let's say 2str per 1hard into HS, or 3... 4? I've seen several healers that don't even put a single point into it(lol) but never melee char that leaves it 1 - maybe auradins do? Then again you can add synergy to a skill without any downloads for users but they won't know about it if they don't read about it here - requires skilldesc/tbl update as well.
BTW. I'm not sure new guys/some with minor experience will put that extra 20%stat points into str - they just don't know that all end game melee stuff is heavy... or there's no way to get massive str from items. I've seen several guys that said they will wear xx or yy but had 70 str.


To add to this, my lvl 98 healer has 75% block with 1 point Holy Shield and base dexterity. This is with two sockets dedicated to block (1 Amethyst, 1 Emerald) and very few dexterity charms. If I actually put some dexterity gear on him, he'd hit max block with no Amethysts or emeralds in gear.

EDIT: Also, I think aura bitching is severely underrated in this thread. Paladins offer utility that NO. Read: NO. other class can provide. They pretty much instantly can validate their spot in a party no matter what. This is vastly different from Sorceresses, Assassins, and Amazons which offer nothing unique to benefit the party when it comes to bosses or even trash.
Every Paladin is capable of this (less so since Conviction was sort of fucked this patch) and can preform this way. I've played useless characters this patch (read: Melee w/ no life buff contributions) and can say playing a character that can actually contribute to your party is 10x more fun than one that is completely useless.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:10 pm 

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I think I was blunt honest how I felt about Blue in previous posts so there is no reason to go there again. I do think there is a reality we all must face here. Blue is the one in charge now. Mancer obviously has no desire to continue to update and edit his Mod and he has left it in Blues hands. While I don't agree with Blues method of editing the mod because he shuts out most of the community and only is interested in Mathematical numbers and not proposed balance changes and ideas ( all of which he reserves for himself ). I do acknowledge he is the one in charge now and if everyone continues to constantly bash him then we will never get anything accomplished. There has to be a more civil way of communicating on here. I think things are progressively getting worse and no good can come from it. I just had to mention that.

Regarding the change to paladins on stat points. I don't think that it's necessary. I'm not going to say It would be a complete fail but It isn't necessary for one main reason. Paladins don't have to invest in dex, period. They can still get max block. That means all they have to invest in is Stre and Vital. If more Stre is needed then they can increase base and there is still a decent amount of Stre boosting items in the game and Stre bugging has not been changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Paladins don't have to invest in dex, period. They can still get max block.

How? Give me some information on how this is possible for characters.
I don't mean just level 95 and higher characters with all sorts of ideal gear. If we want to make this a game where teams can do more than just farm Tundra we have to stop making statements based on end game information only.

For example, I have a lvl81 paladin 47 points in dexterity that is boosted to 61 dex with some gear. With lvl12 (39% ctc block) holy shield running his chance to block is at 29%. I can put points in to it to gain +1% block per level but that isn't going to make a huge impact. If I had say diverted 10pts to it, I would have 39% block? Not a big improvement.

I LOVE to hear intelligent discussion on topics, but it really does need to be intelligent discussion and not just people throwing around unsubstantiated statements. I am very much open to suggestions and feedback. Somethings may be dismissed quickly if they do not fit within the parameters of the current objective (which I pretty much always state very clearly). What I am not open to is rudeness, insults and arrogant statements that are blindingly obvious but people treat like they are pearls of wisdom.

Lee wrote:
That means all they have to invest in is Stre and Vital. If more Stre is needed then they can increase base and there is still a decent amount of Stre boosting items in the game and Stre bugging has not been changed.

Elaborate on that with examples as well. From what have seen Str bugging HAS changed - and changed quite significantly. As such, I expect that most paladin players on the realm are being short changed in around 100-150 vit points. Without a lycanthropy/inc stamina boost, the loss of those vitality points are harming their viability.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:41 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Lee wrote:
Paladins don't have to invest in dex, period. They can still get max block.

How? Give me some information on how this is possible for characters.
I don't mean just level 95 and higher characters with all sorts of ideal gear. If we want to make this a game where teams can do more than just farm Tundra we have to stop making statements based on end game information only.

For example, I have a lvl81 paladin 47 points in dexterity that is boosted to 61 dex with some gear. With lvl12 holy shield running his chance to block is at 29%. I can put points in to it to gain +1% block per level but that isn't going to make a huge impact. If I had say diverted 10pts to it, I would have 39% block? Not a big improvement.

I LOVE to hear intelligent discussion on topics, but it really does need to be intelligent discussion and not just people throwing around unsubstantiated statements.

Lee wrote:
That means all they have to invest in is Stre and Vital. If more Stre is needed then they can increase base and there is still a decent amount of Stre boosting items in the game and Stre bugging has not been changed.

Elaborate on that with examples as well. From what have seen Str bugging HAS changed - and changed quite significantly. As such, I expect that most paladin players on the realm are being short changed in around 100-150 vit points. Without a lycanthropy/inc stamina boost, the loss of those vitality points are harming their viability.


In order to continue this discussion intelligently Blue. We need to establish something here. What are you trying to accomplish? I don't understand. Why are you questioning their viability? Do you want them to Solo? Are we talking from a Solo perspective? Paladins 'naturally' are party oriented characters Blue. They suffice much better in a party than they do solo. If we want them to be more viable solo than I suppose your change would work. They get very high life end game with BO and Oak. If they are in a party with Bo and Oak they are fine. If we are trying to transition the paladin into more of a tanking role then why don't you just add INC stamina?

Regarding the dex. It isn't necessarily end game based Blue. If you had extensive game play experience as I then you would come to know that you begin with the end in mind. What sense does it make for a paladin to invest 50 into dex early game when late game that will be useless because max block can achieved with base dex? Throughout the game you substitute the dex you don't invest through Emeralds, crafts and charms. You can also use Amythest in your shield and even the crafted shields work well and get four sockets. You don't need max Block early and mid game Blue. It isn't vital for survival until end game. End game is where max block is most significantly effective for survival. You can suffice with 50% throughout early and mid game with base dex.

As far on stre buggin on paladins. Ok you beat me there. I'm on like five hours of sleep in the last 48 hours. I accept my mistake of rambling. You can't really stre bug a paladin anymore unless you get crafts with high stre. You can't really stre bug much for that matter.

EDIT: What shield are you using and what's your gear? Why don't you use emeralds and charms? +12 from gear? That is pretty low.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:55 pm 
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I did some more thinking and I have an error in my numbers. I had to go remind myself how holy shield works - it adds the skill value to the shield blocking value, which pretty much sets shields to their max block ability. In my case it turns my Hoz from 64% blocking to 75% blocking.

The formula for max blocking is:
max block = ((150 * clvl) / blocking on the shield) + 15

So for my lvl81 paladin, that is
= ((150 * 81)/75) + 15
= 12150/75 + 15
= 162 + 15
= 177 dexterity

I fail to see how that can be achieved with base dex. It will only get worse as the character gets higher and higher level.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Lee wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish? I don't understand.

General improvement for melee based paladins. It is my understanding that they are like other melee characters and have suffered a bit heavily, I am looking to change that.

Lee wrote:
Paladins 'naturally' are party oriented characters Blue. They suffice much better in a party than they do solo. .... They get very high life end game with BO and Oak

Again - duh. You think I don't realize that? Treating me like I am some sort of idiot really doesn't do much. Keep in mind that I have a very vast understanding of the mechanics of the game and how it plays.

Lee wrote:
why don't you just add INC stamina?

As I have stated earlier, now is not the time for skill adjustments like this. I am interested only in tweaking existing factors, not introducing new skills that could introduce bugs and variables. I am not looking for a long testing period and as we have seen from last patch, errors are often introduced with new skills adjustments. I am going for a keep it simple model here. Unless I am missing something here (and I would love for people to test and make sure), tweaking that column from 4 to 5 should be an ironclad change with zero potential bug impacts

Lee wrote:
If you had extensive game play experience as I then you would come to know that you begin with the end in mind.

I disagree with this assertion. I agree that may be how you play, but I disagree with it as an overall assertion. Mostly because it creates a mindset that believes false statements like this:
Lee wrote:
You don't need max Block early and mid game Blue. It isn't vital for survival until end game.


Keep in mind, this game is for the ENTIRE community. If we want to have parties playing through the game and not just rushing the tundra at light speed, we need to stop this end-only focus. I most certainly will not be viewing balance through that lens. This viewpoint is something Soulmancer and I share and is probably a large reason why he gives me the nod to make changes.

Lee wrote:
EDIT: What shield are you using and what's your gear? Why don't you use emeralds and charms? +12 from gear? That is pretty low.

Its a mix-match of not terribly well put together gear:
HoZ
Hand of Light
Wyrmscale 3x moonstone rubies
hellmouth
glooms
caster boots
4x moonstone helm
some rare rings/ammys.

I would project that someone could go a little more dex focused at get around +40-90 in dex,, but that will come at a sacrifice of other elements (life charms, rubies, diamonds, etc) that other builds do not need to sacrifice. Obtaining max block (177 dex) would require significant work.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:12 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I did some more thinking and I have an error in my numbers. I had to go remind myself how holy shield works - it adds the skill value to the shield blocking value, which pretty much sets shields to their max block ability. In my case it turns my Hoz from 64% blocking to 75% blocking.

The formula for max blocking is:
max block = ((150 * clvl) / blocking on the shield) + 15

So for my lvl81 paladin, that is
= ((150 * 81)/75) + 15
= 12150/75 + 15
= 162 + 15
= 177 dexterity

I fail to see how that can be achieved with base dex. It will only get worse as the character gets higher and higher level.


Pretty sure you're messing up in your equation. Pretty sure you have more than 75% block, even though your shield doesn't display it.
My Dragonscale starts with 75% block (displayed), but Holy Shield adds ~20% actual chance to block.

I also have FAR less dexterity than that. Screenshot:
Image

I only have one Uber Amethyst in my shield. If I had two-three, my dexterity could be toned down by a lot. As far as dexterity from gear, I only have +41 from Helm (1 Moonstone Emerald + base dexterity mod) and +5 from insight. The rest of my dexterity comes from assorted Life/Res + dexterity charms. If I actually geared heavily for block, I could lose all charms and still retain max block (I have 6 sockets dedicated to Rubies that I could easily use for dexterity). One point Holy Shield by the way.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, my base dexterity is ~10, give or take 5 points. Too lazy to remove all gear & charms to check, but I know I didn't put more than 15.

EDIT x2!: Forgot to mention, noticed there was some discussion about block through-out the game. This Paladin retained 60%+ block from A3 Normal to A5 Hell. I had ZERO problems keeping my block that high, and have had tons of wriggle room. If I really wanted to min/max, I could have crafted dexterity Paladin rings, +dex caster boots, Safety/Power Pally Amulet, etc, but it was relatively easy to retain 60%+ block with just charms, an emerald or two, and Holy Shield.
Unfortunately I don't have a time-line of screenshots detailing my Paladin's block, but you get my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:18 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
The formula for max blocking is:
max block = ((150 * clvl) / blocking on the shield) + 15

So for my lvl81 paladin, that is
= ((150 * 81)/75) + 15
= 12150/75 + 15
= 162 + 15
= 177 dexterity

This calculation isn't sitting right with me. Let me recalculate this.

Protector shield = 44% ctc block for paladin
Hoz has +20% inc %blocking
Holy shield is giving me +40% inc %blocking
End result = 84% ctc block. I was seeing 75% as that is the display max for a shield, but I think the formula allows you to surpass that (not 100% sure on that). If the formula does allow you to utilize the full potential of your blocking, that would change it to:

= ((150 * 81)/84) + 15
= 12150/84 + 15
= 145 + 15
= 160 dexterity

Not a vast change, but a difference.

now...why the hell does the in game screen show me at only 29%? I should be at 47%. Lying character screen again or bad math blue? hard to say.

*edit - fixed typo, thx Lockdown*

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:33 pm 
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This is what was true for Vanilla.

Chance to Block

Total Blocking = [(Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)]

Blocking = A total of the Blocking on all of your items. (E.g: Guardian Angel, Twitchthroe, Any Shield, Holy Shield)
[] = Round Down

Note: Blocking on shield shown in game is capped at 75% while it may actually be higher. For a true account of most shields blocking ability... Look here forUnique, Set, and Magical/Rare shields. (for magical/rare, add the Blocking % from the suffix to the base blocking)

Note 2: Block chance is divided by 3 after the 75% cap. You can't block more than 25% when running.

Example: A lvl85 Paladin with 100 Dex, Guardian Angel(20%), lvl20 Holy Shield (35%) and a Herald of Zakarum(82%).

Total Blocking = [(Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)]
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (100 - 15)) / (85 * 2)
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (85)) / (85 * 2)
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (85)) / 170
= (20 + 35 + 82 * (85)) / 170
= (137 * 85) / 170
= 11645 / 170
= 68.5
= 68% Chance to Block

Maybe that can help you explain the character screen. If you give me what you have and all that I can tell you what you should be at. Also in the post above you used 75 not the actual block in the work but divided by 84 not 75 as you show.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Hmm- you say it is capped at 75%, but then the math doesn't work out that way.

For my guy, the values should be at:
(40% holy shield, 20% blocking on Hoz, 44% base for Protector shield on a paladin)

= [(total Blocking * (Dexterity - 15)) / (Character Level * 2)]
= (40 + 20 + 44) * (61-15)) / (81 * 2)
= (104 * 46) / 162
= 29%

So ya, I was just doing my math wrong when I had it calculated higher than that. As you can see though my "total blocking" = 104% once I factor in the added elements, so it isn't capped at 75%

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:05 pm 
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oh ya - Hoz is 64% here, not 82. So in your fictional 85 paladin you'd be sitting at 59% ctc block rather than 69% with 100 dex.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:14 pm 
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bottom line though - a paladin is going to have a hard time keeping max block, str for gear AND enough vitality to tank, which is why I am proposing the +6 stat per level alteration.

despite the unnecessary boost to healers - I think that this is an overall beneficial adjustment.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:27 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
bottom line though - a paladin is going to have a hard time keeping max block, str for gear AND enough vitality to tank, which is why I am proposing the +6 stat per level alteration.

despite the unnecessary boost to healers - I think that this is an overall beneficial adjustment.


This is a pure opinion with no details or facts behind it. Paladins far from need extra stat points (if anyone does, its the poor melee Druid), what they need is their skills looked into. Mainly Hammers, Zeal, and Smite. (Vengeance is a lost cause!)
Paladins are already one of the best tanks in the game. With some simple gear swapping, I guarantee you my pure Healer could tank anything outside Samhein & LoS.

100 extra stat points aren't going to change anything outside giving them more life than a Barbarian. It doesn't change any of the core things that are wrong with them.
By your logic, you should also give Assassins 100 more stat points because they need Strength for melee gear (and heavy boots), Dexterity for Claws, and more vitality to tank. Assassins need 100 dexterity to equip Scissors Suwwayahs. A Paladin with a good blocking set-up would need about the same dexterity to hit max block.
Melee Assassins, like melee Paladins, have no self life buff and gain 4 life per vita. Why give melee Paladins 100 more stats and give nothing to a class that's basically in the same boat, except without the benefit of having auras.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:56 pm 

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Blue just because you don't know how to properly gear a character does not mean Paladins need 6 stat points. Your methods of balancing are completely absurd. No one else is complaining about Paladins. No one else is agreeing with you. No one else has even made a single post retaining to anything relevant about this suggestion. You have made up based on your own opinion that your right but in reality your wrong. You played a paladin to 81 and realized you don't know how to gear one properly.

I apologize for the offensive undertone. I just don't agree with your logical reasoning. It makes no sense and even if Paladins did have a blocking problem adding 100 stat pts is not a balanced solution.

I don't need a mathematical evaluated report to prove you wrong because I've played here FAR longer and FAR much more than you have. I have ACTUAL game play experience that stands by me. That far out weighs your theory craft that you fiddle with on the forums. You just don't know how to gear.

Paladins don't need 100 extra stat points, PERIOD. If you don't agree with this then you need to uninstall HU, PERIOD.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:04 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Blue just because you don't know how to properly gear a

Go ahead and post gear then. Nothing is standing in your way from presenting solid information. (didn't I already say this?)

Participate or don't participate - I don't care. If you have nothing but insults and comments that you can't back up with evidence and only your "uber" reputation, then you have no value to offer.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:27 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Go ahead and post gear then. Nothing is standing in your way from presenting solid information. (didn't I already say this?)

Participate or don't participate - I don't care. If you have nothing but insults and comments that you can't back up with evidence and only your "uber" reputation, then you have no value to offer.


I showed you a Paladin with EASYmaximum block. A Paladin that could have a possible 250+ (not an exaggeration) more dexterity in his gear and 40% more chance to block in his shield. Yet without that, he still reaches maximum block no problem and with a solid base life to boot.

You chose to ignore this in favor of your poorly geared Paladin values. Maybe you need 100 extra stat points, but anyone who knows how to gear a Paladin well does not need it at all.

You're proposing to slap a band-aid on a class, and its a bad band-aid at that. Basically, you're slapping a paper towel on someone's head who is bleeding from his rear. He might be able to take that towel and wipe his bloody ass with it, but he still has a bloody ass.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Holy shield gives +block of top of total block, not extra on shield. THAT makes paladins unique. If you want to give extra str to dins give them it directly, not by extra +1 as it will lead to
1)my zon lacks of block, life block, life, block and dmg, WTF? I don't have HS but I need 90/90 str/dex for tstrokes
2)GF and tyr needs 232 str but I have 50%block. WTF? I want extra 1 point...

Link it to a skill or wait till next patch so we can do new gear pal oriented. Extra 1 will only be extra 1 into vita. Just like nerfing amp was a slap to melee chars while amp was nec skills(necs don't melee btw).


I had zelee din with 10 dex that had 75%block... last leader... he had 35% cb and was unbalanced. thank you goodbye.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:44 pm 
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I keep hearing people speaking their opinions, but there is nothing backing it up other than: "do what I say because I have played this game a long time and that means I know what I am saying".

Sorry - that just isn't enough. If you REALLY do know what you are talking about, then prove it. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

Take Steel's last post:

I had zelee din with 10 dex that had 75%block... last leader.
That was last ladder though. Things have changed DRAMATICALLY since last ladder:
- No enigma for free mass dex boost.
- anni charm gave +20-30 to all stats
- soulmancers boots gave +50 dex

That's just 3 examples of things that allowed characters last ladder to hit max block with base dex. Things have changed.

So sure - give feedback, just think it through and make it based on fact, not your perceived game experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:56 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I keep hearing people speaking their opinions, but there is nothing backing it up other than: "do what I say because I have played this game a long time and that means I know what I am saying".

Sorry - that just isn't enough. If you REALLY do know what you are talking about, then prove it. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.


blue_myriddn wrote:
bottom line though - a paladin is going to have a hard time keeping max block, str for gear AND enough vitality to tank, which is why I am proposing the +6 stat per level alteration.

despite the unnecessary boost to healers - I think that this is an overall beneficial adjustment.


Where are YOUR facts to back this up Blue? I posted mine. Others have posted theirs (which you have ignored). Seriously, I proved to you straight up maximum block is easy to obtain. Where is your proof that its not?
I guarantee I could gear your Paladin to have maximum block quite easily. Just because you don't use the tools given to you by the game doesn't mean they don't exist.

I see a lot of "I'm Blue, post facts for me" but so far you've shown nothing in this thread that CONCRETELY and FACTUALLY proves that Paladins have trouble with block. You require this of everyone else, but somehow your opinion (as shown by the second quote) is perfectly okay and holds authority.


Also, this post should have ended the thread:
Steel wrote:
Holy shield gives +block of top of total block, not extra on shield. THAT makes paladins unique. If you want to give extra str to dins give them it directly, not by extra +1 as it will lead to
1)my zon lacks of block, life block, life, block and dmg, WTF? I don't have HS but I need 90/90 str/dex for tstrokes
2)GF and tyr needs 232 str but I have 50%block. WTF? I want extra 1 point...

Because this is completely true and is exactly the mentality this fix emphasizes.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:57 pm 
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I never used enigma or sm boots... Anni was ofc a bit too OP.
Armor was a war rw
boots were goreriders or golblins
I had 75% with it, melee gear, cb oriented, I was a din noob - never had before... Really.
I said it already - you can add early 50-60 dex and be happy having 75%block always. Just put emeralds into your armor sometimes, barbs will never have 75%block unless they sacrifice their main ability to use 2h wpns.

I know this topic is - paladins are supporting class, they should be able to use end game gear with easy but let heavy hitters put some more to achieve that.
You want - let give extra +1 to every new din even if 95% rolls a healer.
I want - let we connect melee SKILLS (that you actually have to put 20 points) with stats so it's not a free stat, you have to earn it.

You want extra %4 hp on barb - SUREEEEEEE just click on this inc stamina skills... You want extra str and block - SUREEEE just click on this holy shield. 6 points per lvl = 20%more vita for dins.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Steel wrote:
I said it already - you can add early 50-60 dex and be happy having 75%block always. Just put emeralds into your armor sometimes,

I already said that actually:

blue_myriddn wrote:
I would project that someone could go a little more dex focused at get around +40-90 in dex,, but that will come at a sacrifice of other elements (life charms, rubies, diamonds, etc) that other builds do not need to sacrifice. Obtaining max block (177 dex) would require significant work.

If you put 50-60pts in dex (and Lee is claiming you can do it with 0pts in dex!), then you have to come up with +100 dex from your gear at lvl81. 4x Moonstone emeralds will do that (4x 25 dex each), but then you loose out on either:

[a] +100 vitality and 32% life boost
[b] +1000 defense and +64 mdr/pdr

That is a heavy price to pay.

Other options would be to fill up your inventory with +5 dex LCs. It will take 20 of them though, so I hope you have enough! Maybe Lee (who knows how to gear a paladin), can show us how he can get not only +100 dex from his gear, but +160 dex from his gear.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:28 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Protector shield = 44% ctc block for paladin
Hoz has +20% inc %blocking
Holy shield is giving me +40% inc %blocking
End result = 84% ctc block. I was seeing 75% as that is the display max for a shield, but I think the formula allows you to surpass that (not 100% sure on that). If the formula does allow you to utilize the full potential of your blocking, that would change it to:

= ((150 * 81)/84) + 15
= 12150/84 + 15
= 145 + 15
= 160 dexterity

Not a vast change, but a difference.

Darn people annoying me with perpetual insults, I did this wrong AGAIN. 44 + 20 + 40 = 104% not 84%

That leaves me with 132 dex required. Considerably easier to obtain, but this sidetrack on blocking still doesn't really detract from this initial statement that I made:
bule_myriddn wrote:
bottom line though - a paladin is going to have a hard time keeping max block, str for gear AND enough vitality to tank, which is why I am proposing the +6 stat per level alteration.

Or am I somewhere missing all the melee paladins out there?

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Barbs will have even harder time to keep high hp dmg and block so I suggest 7stats per lvl. Official.
Edit2: removed


Last edited by Steel on Wed May 04, 2011 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Barbs will have even harder time to keep high hp dmg and block so I suggest 7stats per lvl. Official.

not needed (even though that was clearly your sarcasm).
barbs have inc. stamina and nat res.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Now barbs are ok without shield and no ability to block but poor paladins are too soft to keep up? I had my paladin up and ready while barbs in dhorn/tyraels where dying to hell baal. I know it's a different patch but don't forget that paladins are support class, not main dps. I know some folks want to roll high def/high hp/high dmg dins removing barbs from this game but hell, I don't. I said it already, want to give boost to dins - give it so they do something to earn it. NOONE gives extra -20%phys pierce to barbs just because phys res is high and ele chars have -100pierce. I can understand why you want to do this but not by "free" stats...
INC stamina requires 20 points barbs could spend to synergy attacks or something. Why I ask Why paladins should get free str for not even putting a single point into any skill that's for melee? Holy shield is clearly a skill that helps melees to keep up, link it there, holy auradins will have a hard time but HEY they have a passive pierce which phys could only dream of. One advantage vs another. Duh. This topic is like - hey let's help 1% of guys that roll some funny din builds, no matter if we give another advantage to roll healers/hdins/aura bitchers...


BTW.http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7607/54824628.jpg try to place paladins or barbs near him... ofc, let just focus on din not being able to wear some scepters but let barbs suck as they do now... Pierce > everything.

Edit: I'm 100% to give something to dins, just not free +1stat. They are hit by these new patch changes, that's for sure. I may be wrong and majority will need that extra 100 points, but for now I think only few will think of it as a chance to keep up with other melees - Just look how other efforts to balance melee phys ended - amp/cb reduced(given opportunity to max amp on nec so they help melee :D:D) completely removed some builds from ladder - you still can roll these with dedicated teams but should we CLOSE realm and go back to LAN parties? I don't want to play my barb in hope someone max amp nor I don't want to put free extra 100 stats in STR if I roll a healer... OR DO I? more the better.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:19 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Other options would be to fill up your inventory with +5 dex LCs. It will take 20 of them though, so I hope you have enough! Maybe Lee (who knows how to gear a paladin), can show us how he can get not only +100 dex from his gear, but +160 dex from his gear.


Lee won't, but I did. I'll mention my screenshot for the 100th time in this thread. That's no "end-game" completely decked to fuck and back Paladin. It's an average joe. His only "end-game" item is a Dragonscale Jay happened to find months ago. Other than that the gear he's sporting is the farthest from optimal you could get.
He's still using Magefists & Insight at lvl 98 for christs sake.
Yet... He still has max block and good base life. Funny how that works.
I really didn't want to be a dick, but man... Not being able to hit 30% block on a Paladin is entirely pathetic, especially with that huge amount of base dexterity. It's almost flabbergasting to be honest.
It shows that you seriously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Paladins and their stat points.

blue_myriddn wrote:
not needed (even though that was clearly your sarcasm).
barbs have inc. stamina and nat res.


And Paladins have Holy Shield. Holy Shield is huge, and allows Paladins to have FAR less dexterity and CTB for max block than ANY OTHER class. It also allows them to hit a 1FPA block, the fastest block in the entire game.
This means instead of someone who has a 4, 3, or even 2 FPA block can't begin to compare.
To put it in perspective, a Paladin can block 25 attacks in the time it takes an average character to block ~6, ~8, and ~12.5 attacks. This by itself is huge and allows Paladins to have amazing block without the repercussions of block-lock and losing attack frames because you're blocking.


Bottom line though, you think this is a good idea. You really don't care if you're wrong, you like the idea and no one is going to change your mind. It doesn't matter that all the evidence and all the opinions in this thread are completely contrary to you.
You consider your OPINION, which you have yet to back up with actual FACTS to be correct and nothing is going to change that.

That's the worst part, because you will not listen to anyone who knows better than you, no matter the subject. The very fact that they DO know better than you irritates you to no end. You make these threads in the hopes of people getting behind your ideas and praising them. If you're proved contrary, you rage like a little kid and stick to your stubbornness as a shield.
It's actually a very common behavior pattern for people who pride themselves on their intellect and gain self-confidence by being more intelligent than their peers.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:48 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
If you put 50-60pts in dex (and Lee is claiming you can do it with 0pts in dex!), then you have to come up with +100 dex from your gear at lvl81. 4x Moonstone emeralds will do that (4x 25 dex each), but then you loose out on either:

[a] +100 vitality and 32% life boost
[b] +1000 defense and +64 mdr/pdr

That is a heavy price to pay.

Other options would be to fill up your inventory with +5 dex LCs. It will take 20 of them though, so I hope you have enough! Maybe Lee (who knows how to gear a paladin), can show us how he can get not only +100 dex from his gear, but +160 dex from his gear.


Your math is so extremely skewed it's not funny. You're completely ignoring the fact that you could Amethyst your shield for higher block values, or idk, have some real gear on?

Look at this:
Level 82 Paladin.

Wyrm Hide - +10 Dexterity
Waterwalks - +20 Dexterity
Bladebuckle - +10 Dexterity
Crown of Thieves - +25 Dexterity
Gravepalm or Crafted Gloves w/ Dex mod - +10 Dexterity
One Power Ring - At least 8 dexterity, but the average (w/o a dex roll) is +12 dexterity
Three +5 Dexterity Large charms - +15 Dexterity

Total Dexterity: 102
This is using NO sockets, and one completely average craft without a Dex mod on it. All of this is available at level 82, and all of this gear benefits a melee character. You're using SIX inventory spaces, not twenty.

This is far from optimum gear. You could get an assload more dexterity using crafts (Dexterity Tiaras, 4 os is a dream for blocking) without gimping yourself in the least. Hell, you can roll Amulets that can give ~80 dexterity on them alone, not to mention 40+ dexterity rings.

The combination's to hit your "insane" number of +100 dexterity is extremely easy. Even hitting +160 is pretty easy, if you're willing to sacrifice a socket. ANY circlet/tiara/diadem with a dexterity modifier and two sockets will put you at an easy 160. That's just one example.
It's not a hard number to obtain, and its not gimping yourself nearly as much as you'd like to think. If you actually put Amethysts in your shield, the dexterity needed would be much, much lower.

EDIT: Since you "fixed" your math, the key number of dex is 127 (+5 base). As you can see, a single Moonstone Emerald in one of your FOUR open sockets will let you reach max block with that set-up.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:53 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Steel wrote:
I said it already - you can add early 50-60 dex and be happy having 75%block always. Just put emeralds into your armor sometimes,

I already said that actually:

blue_myriddn wrote:
I would project that someone could go a little more dex focused at get around +40-90 in dex,, but that will come at a sacrifice of other elements (life charms, rubies, diamonds, etc) that other builds do not need to sacrifice. Obtaining max block (177 dex) would require significant work.

If you put 50-60pts in dex (and Lee is claiming you can do it with 0pts in dex!), then you have to come up with +100 dex from your gear at lvl81. 4x Moonstone emeralds will do that (4x 25 dex each), but then you loose out on either:

[a] +100 vitality and 32% life boost
[b] +1000 defense and +64 mdr/pdr

That is a heavy price to pay.

Other options would be to fill up your inventory with +5 dex LCs. It will take 20 of them though, so I hope you have enough! Maybe Lee (who knows how to gear a paladin), can show us how he can get not only +100 dex from his gear, but +160 dex from his gear.


Your an amazing funny guy. You don't know jack shit about this game. It's seriously hilarious. First of all, let's make one thing clear. I said 50% is all you need for early and mid game. I still stand by that. Produce some fucking evidence that more than 50% is necessary for a paladins survivability early and mid game because It simply isn't. Your an inexperienced douche bag who knows nothing about this game. If you can show any form of evidence that more than 50% is necessary for a paladins viability in a party early-mid game than I'll continue this discussion with you.

Don't insinuate that I implied 75% block is easily attainable with gear early/mid when I never said that or stood by that. Learn to read and comprehend appropriately. Smart ass insults will bite you in the ass when you don't do so.

You just don't know what your doing man. Every experienced player is going to continue to tell you your doing it wrong and your still going to think your the only one right. Your amazing man, you really are. How many more players is it going to take Blue? Is the whole world of HU wrong and Blue right? Your living in fantasy land. Your in Blues world and all you see is yourself and nothing else.


It's not even that your inept and lack true game play experience to know what you're doing. I would give credit to an individual ACTUALLY willing to work with the community and IMPLEMENT balancing/ideas that he DID not come up with. You don't DO either. I'm not being rude. I'm not being a dick. I'm just being blunt honest. All you care about is WHAT you think and you'll never admit your idea was bad or your implements were stupid. The only thing you'll take credit for is having "bad" math aka "wrong" calculations.

Sorry but you deserved this post for your smart ass comments which were completely baseless.

I'm still willing to go on single player and prove you wrong. At 81 75% would be attainable without suffering such huge life loss. It's just the fact it requires tremendous amount of time and you'd still find some ridiculous way to bullshit out of it and never admit you were wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:07 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
If you put 50-60pts in dex (and Lee is claiming you can do it with 0pts in dex!), then you have to come up with +100 dex from your gear at lvl81. 4x Moonstone emeralds will do that (4x 25 dex each), but then you loose out on either:

[a] +100 vitality and 32% life boost
[b] +1000 defense and +64 mdr/pdr

That is a heavy price to pay.

Other options would be to fill up your inventory with +5 dex LCs. It will take 20 of them though, so I hope you have enough! Maybe Lee (who knows how to gear a paladin), can show us how he can get not only +100 dex from his gear, but +160 dex from his gear.


Your math is so extremely skewed it's not funny. You're completely ignoring the fact that you could Amethyst your shield for higher block values, or idk, have some real gear on?

Look at this:
Level 82 Paladin.

Wyrm Hide - +10 Dexterity
Waterwalks - +20 Dexterity
Bladebuckle - +10 Dexterity
Crown of Thieves - +25 Dexterity
Gravepalm or Crafted Gloves w/ Dex mod - +10 Dexterity
One Power Ring - At least 8 dexterity, but the average (w/o a dex roll) is +12 dexterity
Three +5 Dexterity Large charms - +15 Dexterity

Total Dexterity: 102
This is using NO sockets, and one completely average craft without a Dex mod on it. All of this is available at level 82, and all of this gear benefits a melee character. You're using SIX inventory spaces, not twenty.

This is far from optimum gear. You could get an assload more dexterity using crafts (Dexterity Tiaras, 4 os is a dream for blocking) without gimping yourself in the least. Hell, you can roll Amulets that can give ~80 dexterity on them alone, not to mention 40+ dexterity rings.

The combination's to hit your "insane" number of +100 dexterity is extremely easy. Even hitting +160 is pretty easy, if you're willing to sacrifice a socket. ANY circlet/tiara/diadem with a dexterity modifier and two sockets will put you at an easy 160. That's just one example.
It's not a hard number to obtain, and its not gimping yourself nearly as much as you'd like to think. If you actually put Amethysts in your shield, the dexterity needed would be much, much lower.

EDIT: Since you "fixed" your math, the key number of dex is 127 (+5 base). As you can see, a single Moonstone Emerald in one of your FOUR open sockets will let you reach max block with that set-up.


This is just one set up. Modifiers on rings go high with dex. I have several rare rings with 15+ dex and over 100 life. It's not hard to roll a rare paladin skill helm with + Dex as a modifier as well. Not to mention it's not that difficult to craft a simple Sapphire ring or amulet which has an automod 8-16 on the ring and 16-32 on the amulet and both are possible for + pal skills amongst other mods. And as Zac said an Amethyst or two in your shield won't hurt if you can afford the resist loss. Safety shield crafts get 20-40% ICB. There are a lot of variations in which 130+ is easily attainable at 81.

It all comes down to the player. Due to constraints on early/mid level gear if you want such high block ( which isn't NEEDED anyway ) then you have to make some sacrifice elsewhere. 75% is not needed in early and mid game therefor 95% of players do not seek to achieve such a high blocking %.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:28 pm 
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Damn Abominae posting something useful?

Abominae wrote:
Wyrm Hide - +10 Dexterity
Waterwalks - +20 Dexterity
Bladebuckle - +10 Dexterity
Crown of Thieves - +25 Dexterity
Gravepalm or Crafted Gloves w/ Dex mod - +10 Dexterity
One Power Ring - At least 8 dexterity, but the average (w/o a dex roll) is +12 dexterity
Three +5 Dexterity Large charms - +15 Dexterity

I question Crown of Thieves, but that is a small thing. Fair enough - it is reasonable to set your gear towards max block and that isn't too arduous to do, I will agree with that.

Doesn't really change much on the +6 suggestion though as the real purpose of that was to give paladins access to STRENGTH. If some folks end up using it to increase the overall vit of Healers, that isn't the end of the world in my book. As I said, I will take that price to boost Hammerdins and melee paladins.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:54 pm 
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from what I am reading in this thread, hp isnt the factor that is holding back hammerdins.

also echoing what everyone has already said about max block with base dex.
my 88 healer has max block and <100 str and with my party buffs tops at around 9.8k hp.
My druid tops out at 10k and barb at 11k. Neither of them have max block or awesome shields.

I could improve the life bulb rather easily but right now hes wearing gris set for the survivability and sockets are geared towards wearing that since I dont really have a need for anything else atm. I'd spend the time to optimize them if I planned to use that set up for any large amount of time.

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Last edited by Zikur on Fri May 06, 2011 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:01 pm 

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Quote:
If you can show any form of evidence that more than 50% is necessary for a paladins viability in a party early-mid game than I'll continue this discussion with you.


75% is 50% more reduction for half of the cost?


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:31 pm
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I may sound really dumb in saying this, also it may not be possible.

Is it possible to code it as such:
4 points in STR only will grant 1 extra STR (automatically assigned).. or even 3:1 str.
Therefore if you went all out and spent 500 pts in str you would get a max return of 125 extra str points (with 4:1 ratio)

or maybe another alternative..
For every level gained it automatically assigns 1 str point so it will max at 100 str gained with a lvl 101 character.

If either of these ways are possible it will not make as HUGE of an impact as a free set of 100 points to spend at your leisure.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:08 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Damn Abominae posting something useful?


Just thought I might teach you how to gear your Paladin, it looked like you needed it. I could change it around to accommodate for +skills if you're a hybrid =)

blue_myriddn wrote:
Doesn't really change much on the +6 suggestion though as the real purpose of that was to give paladins access to STRENGTH. If some folks end up using it to increase the overall vit of Healers, that isn't the end of the world in my book. As I said, I will take that price to boost Hammerdins and melee paladins.


So, wait, now you're changing your opinion? You stated that Paladins NEED the extra stats because of having to balance three different stats (which other classes already need to do).
With dexterity gone, you are balancing two stats with hard points. Strength and Vitality, same as every other 2h melee. No character is going to use hard points in Strength to increase 1h damage (the rewards are extremely low), so basically you're giving them free vitality.

Yes, it's a buff, but it's a buff that does nothing outside of making an already amazing tank class (arguably better than Barbarians given different situations) into the end-all tanking class. A cool niche, but one that only really matters come LoS.
It fixes NOTHING about Hammerdins or Melee Paladins. Not to mention, most will go > 200 strength, so to repeat myself, just more free vitality on a class that's already tied for second best life in the game.

I don't get why you think this change will do anything significant outside of buffing Paladin life. It's also not retroactive, which is a terrible design for a band-aid in the first place. It's also most likely to NOT be reverted when Hammerdins / Zealers / Smiters are reworked into viability, meaning its a HUGE buff when the classes actually work.

It's poorly designed and generally a bad idea anyway you want to look at it. It doesn't address any core problems, does not work for people who have already made Paladins, and does not solely target the builds most in need of a buff.

For those reasons alone, its a terrible idea to try and implement.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:16 pm 

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If melee start to do damage, giving zealers free strength points(which are worth fucktons of damage now) is stupid.

Giving every other class points to spend in vitality is stupid.

Fix the actual builds, not generalizations made to entire classes/game.

Hammerdins do crappy trash clearing damage because of how it functions and does pitiful damage because of magical sorb.

Melee don't do damage because of reduction levels.

Holy zealers do pitiful damage/imba damage(with mastery[broken items]).

Healers have always been a crutch for bad players and salvation/res auras have always been a way to skip the actual gearing phases.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:20 pm 
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magoogle wrote:
I may sound really dumb in saying this, also it may not be possible....

Sadly, no. Something like that was my first idea too viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3503

Zikur wrote:
from what I am reading in this thread, hp isnt the factor that is holding back hammerdins.

Then what is? Here are some posts on it:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3041
Plus with skulls taking a nerf to 5% and the str nerf on gear it take away from his tanking ability. the hdin is not a typical caster class u have to get up close n personal to u target.


As the hammerdin goes, he has it rough. My vita whore hdin last ladder only had like 7k life with self bo endgame. Now, it would be even less w/o str on enigma, and blocking is harder also w/o the dex. Since the guy has no recastable tanks, he's taking the brunt of the attacks.

Imagine trying to tank a sub-boss on a paly without max res, no DR, and no rubies to help his life pool.


Sounded a lot like tanking issues for the most part.

And yes Zikur, as I have said repeatedly in this thread I am abundantly aware that Healers do not need this buff.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:15 pm 
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Have you thought about a health buff on Holy Shield?
A 2% to 3% health buff per hard point could be enough, perhaps a static 40% to 60% health buff, but I haven't tested it.
This could ease the burden on vitality point investment. And for those who don't invest in holy shield, they probably aren't investing in dexterity as much so they should have stat points for elsewhere. But that would require more than a server-side change so people know the health buff exists.

I do not believe increasing base health is the solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Have you thought about a health buff on Holy Shield? .... But that would require more than a server-side change so people know the health buff exists.

yes.
and you answered why I rejected it.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:14 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:

Zikur wrote:
from what I am reading in this thread, hp isnt the factor that is holding back hammerdins.

Then what is? Here are some posts on it:
[selective quotes completely ignoring the quoted text above that said in this thread

And yes Zikur, as I have said repeatedly in this thread I am abundantly aware that Healers do not need this buff.

I dont see a reason to repeat myself about hdins.

As for paladins my post wasn't to say that healers don't need a buff. If I hadn't said that it was indeed a healer what would set it apart from any other paladin? My post illustrated that it is rather simple to have max block with base dex. If i had to choose between 50 mdr/pdr or max block it wouldnt be a hard choice.

I dont know what you are trying to block with but to have >50% block with 60 points (!!!!!) invested into dex is absurd and not a reason to give the class +100 pts.

If hdins couldnt be adjusted this season I dont think many would shed a tear they all have psn zons by now. zealers have imba rws. vengence is vengence.

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 Post subject: Re: Paladin Strength enhancement version 2
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Healers have always been a crutch for bad players and salvation/res auras have always been a way to skip the actual gearing phases.

aka non psn zon/meteor sorc

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