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 Post subject: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:10 pm 
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By that I mean skills that don't get used. Ie, attract.

1: Attract
2: Pois Explosion (correct me if i'm wrong on this one but even before pois nova it seemed completely useless to me)
3: Shadow Warrior (crap survivbility and a retarded AI + just a weak version of shadow master)
4: Stun (never used except as a pre-req)
5: ice blast (icebolt clone with a diff missile graphic)
6: fire arrow/cold arrow
7: skele mages

Suggested changes:
1: change to impregnate. Effected enemys spawn a rat when they die that attacks 5 times, dealing poison damage
2: change the missile to a slow moving spiral of poison bolts
3: Change to a new mindsin skill
4: change to release a small stun wave on strike so it can hit a few enemys at a time, (lower damage to 3/4 weapon damage)
5: no idea here, maybe a cold version of molten boulder
6: increase damage to 5/4 weapon damage
7: reduce to 1 skeletal mage (change the shitty monster token to something better looking)
Additional:
Change all 4 skelemage missiles. Remove the elemental damage and set them all to deal 100% of their phys damage (meaning they can proc spells)
set their phys damage to 1 and increase the missile speed to something extremely high + remove the missile animation.

Using monprop.txt, give them 4 elemental skills each with a 25% ctc on strike and give them the ignore beasts/demons and undead stats. (this means the spells will still proc vs phys immunes.
The damage for each elemental skill can be listed on the discription. Now, every time the mage casts his spell, the missile hits instantly and procs a spell. Each spells damage is synergised by skele mastery and skele mage.
This allows for a very flexible mage that isn't filling the screen with masses and masses of low damage spells while keeping the skill.

SS attatched with an example.
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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:13 am 
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I'd like to dispute Shadow Warrior personally, if only for the Cloak of Shadows on left-click shenanigans you can do. Also, the AI isn't terrible as long as you control it with Dragon Flight. It makes a solid meat shield (especially if you let it cast Fade) with utility tacked on to it.
I'd rather see the current Mindsin skills buffed than a new one added. 40 points is nice for a Sin build as it gives wriggle room for Fade & Death Sentry.
All others on your list I agree with though.

To add to the list of useless skills:
Cobra Strike - has very small niche uses, especially for a melee sin who would benefit the most from it. Your leech is usually better and not worth the time to charge it up. Possibly decrease the values and make your finisher set Drain Effectiveness to 100 for just that attack (similar to how Lifetap functions)? I'm not sure if that's possible, but it would give the skill a cool niche for Assassins.
Confuse - I've honestly never seen this cursed used seriously. Terror I've seen, but never Confuse/Attract. Maybe replace it with a -Mag pierce + Slow type of curse? Mainly just magic pierce, but an additional effect would be nice and make the curse more useful in a party environment.
Weaken - This I'm unsure of, but in my personal experience never seen it used outside of CTC on a mercenary. It's outclassed by Decrepify if you want a safety curse.
Shock Web - NHD really holds this skill back. It's seriously a piece of shit on anything but a fallen or similar extremely low life monster. Otherwise its not worth casting, especially when you compare it to Fireblast for a Fire Trapper
Ravens - Still terrible after their buff. The damage, even at extremely high levels (60+), is pathetic and never worth using. My suggestion is to either increase the damage dramatically or add additional utility to them in some form or another.
Shockwave - Probably doesn't belong in this "completely useless" category, but it is still pretty terrible. It hits for less than War Cry does without the benefit of teleport and better life. And hitting for less than War Cry is sad, because War Cry produces terrible damage. It also has the worst synergy of pretty much any skill I've ever seen. Melee + pure caster do not mix, especially when the form of damage is the exact same (physical & physical)


Just my list of complaints/input, take from it what you will. Otherwise, the proposed changes look very cool, especially the Skeletal Mages one.
Just a thought for Ice Blast, you could change it to a Multi-shot/Teethish skill, except with less AoE. Maybe ~10 Ice Blasts maximum, scaling on ~1 per 2 hard points in the skill. Just a random thought though.

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:41 am 
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2: Pois Explosion (correct me if i'm wrong on this one but even before pois nova it seemed completely useless to me) - always used that skill ecpecially this patch/early reset as low mana cost(better dmg than nova,but hard to hit mob - hell champ marlith for example)

5: ice blast (icebolt clone with a diff missile graphic) - gg single target blizz attack, use it when blizz colddown.


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:56 am 
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@ shockweb

What about adjusting the damage, removing the next hit delay and making it work like a fire patch?

@ weaken, i got some use outa this skill on my untwinked play through at the start of the patch. It totally owns elemental spells damage from enemys. Decrep only effects the physical damage of enemys. I'd like it to stay personally but if nobody else actually uses it then maybe it could get a bit of a buff (increase the effect per level a little?)

@ Cobra Strike: What about making it a charge up like feral rage? I never use it personally but I think Fury makes good use of it quite alot in it's current form (not sure though)

@ confuse: I loved this as a ctc on dream for my old static sorc. Apart from that I've never used it. Especially on a necro. A mag pierce curse would be great but I don't think it should be too high. Bone spells are already awesome. what about switching decreps pierce to magic and giving confuse the phys pierce of decrepify (enemys attacking each other is useless, at least if you can lower resists a bit at the same time they may be doing a little damage).

Shockwave:
maybe just change the synergy to bear form and add another synergy with lycanthropy?

@Ice blast, isn't glacial spike better?

@ Pois explosion. Isn't pois strike better for the high life stuff? I always found it better to use the corpses for CE (CE's cooldown was a mistake on my part and will be fixed)

@ Ravens: I agree, even a substantial buff was useless. Perhaps change it to something like the SS below. synergys can be changed to wolves or whatever, Summy druids have NOTHING to do ecxept stand around. Giving them a trash skill would be nice and give them something to do.
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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:49 am 
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Loved the mages and ravens ideas so far.

First one that comes to my mind as a useless skill is Firewall. Not that it's actually useless, but that Blaze is just so much better it kind of makes it obsolete. Maybe a simple damage buff would make it more attractive, since its an insta-cast (although long cooldown iirc)

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:54 am 
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Quote:
Confuse - I've honestly never seen this cursed used seriously. Terror I've seen, but never Confuse/Attract. Maybe replace it with a -Mag pierce + Slow type of curse? Mainly just magic pierce, but an additional effect would be nice and make the curse more useful in a party environment.
Well I used it alot on my necs to get past big areas like tundra without fight. Nothing wrong with that skill. Attract have very limited use so yeah to change that. I used it maybe few times - attract one of rakanishu minions + amp(you can't override attract) everything else, sob + thorns but it's just like having one skele more.
Ravens
Quote:
@ Ravens: I agree, even a substantial buff was useless. Perhaps change it to something like the SS below. synergys can be changed to wolves or whatever, Summy druids have NOTHING to do ecxept stand around. Giving them a trash skill would be nice and give them something to do.
AoE spell or another summons? spell won't work as you'd have to gear as a caster with phys/magic pierce gear? Summons with few hits, faster and affected by auras maybe. Then again would that make them targetable?
ShadowWarrior could get her equipment boosted(it sux iirc), skills only dclaw and faster ai. Just something to tank/kill. Shadowmaster for crowdcontrol.
Stun - Sounds like warcry clone but affected by ias. Maybe mix Stun with status aliments? You can't stun bosses/champs so at least you could soften them a bit. 1%damage red or %phys res per 1 point, soft or hard.


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:29 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
@ Cobra Strike: What about making it a charge up like feral rage? I never use it personally but I think Fury makes good use of it quite alot in it's current form (not sure though)


This would be very cool and be useful for pretty much any Sin that gets into melee range. The added leech to Blade Shield alone would warrant using it.
You'd have the scale the values down though. Cobra Strike is something like 116% LL/ML fully charged at level 20. Something a bit lower than Feral Rage's values would work nicely (31 LL @ level 20, 21 LL @ level 10 are Feral's values.)

Got me dreamin' now. Haha

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:33 pm 

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Ravens can be ok vs enemy archers as they have "hit blinds target" until target gets attacked. Can buy a bit of time vs champs and minions away from where you're presently attacking.

Poison explosion is not bad in crowds of non-immunes. Used it quite a bit in areas with lots of chargers. LR + psn explosion can clear almost as fast as nova in many cases. Low mana cost makes it rather appealing and it does reasonable damage.

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
@ Cobra Strike: What about making it a charge up like feral rage? I never use it personally but I think Fury makes good use of it quite alot in it's current form (not sure though)


This would be very cool and be useful for pretty much any Sin that gets into melee range. The added leech to Blade Shield alone would warrant using it.
You'd have the scale the values down though. Cobra Strike is something like 116% LL/ML fully charged at level 20. Something a bit lower than Feral Rage's values would work nicely (31 LL @ level 20, 21 LL @ level 10 are Feral's values.)

Got me dreamin' now. Haha


yeh would have to scale the values back a good bit, maybe 5% + 1 per level (ish)?

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:44 pm 
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Shockwave - Add a fraction of weapon damage to the skill, like some of the assassin skills have.

But to be honest shockwave isn't as useless as some other skills already listed. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:10 pm 

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psy hammer and mind blast... At least give it more gear to be viable... If not change it into something fun!


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:51 pm 

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take off conversion on mindblast and add another synergy or something and itd be great aoe magic


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:48 am 

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Dunno if this would apply here but holy fire/light/cold plds need their synergies adjusted, 80 pt build is too much Considering you have no ar/def benefit for actually landing the dmg. Especially since their dmg is going back to shit after armageddon is removed/altered.


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:57 pm 
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maye 2 20/20 synergies instead of 1 20% and 2 10%

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:09 pm 

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Agreed. Holy auras need a small buff with current resistances. Same or more with sanctuary's magic dmg. Granted it has less monsters with less magic resistance, but with almost ZERO +%skill damage and magic buff capabilities, magic damage is horrid end of nightmare and hell. (my magic zealer knows lol) With AR based gear I can only hit about 7k max magic damage with low -res. It either needs a buff or magic damage buffs need to be more available.

i dont agree with conversion off of mind blast because its one of the greatest crowd control tools for a mind blast sin. I know most people just dont like it on their shadows, but deal with it. There are bigger things than making your GG tank even better. its nice to have a few hundred summons if youre a trapper too. or a few thousand if you're in hell tundra.


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Mindblast is ok as it is now (with no shadow spaming it). Last patch my shadow converted an imp in tundra. I was running SoB. AS I was runing back past it, it unconverted and I ww'd through, forgetting that it still had the SoB aura active at the time... RIP pimped out venom wwsin and lo loots coz I was soloing :D

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:30 am 

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every single skill in the game except for rabies and the poison javazon skills are useless. If you don't play a psn druid/zon then you are useless. GG


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:41 am 
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Neoiceshroom wrote:
every single skill in the game except for rabies and the poison javazon skills are useless. If you are a bad player


Nothing can be done about that, most folks will always take the path of least resistance. Let's see how they do when they have the same absorbs to contend with as every other ele type.

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:30 pm 
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some skills can be just fixed instead of changed, example:

-attract
-confuse

Give a huge amount of enhanced dmg per hard point to these skills(enhanced dmg to the monsters, like conversion), they still wouldnt worth max, but some people might enjoy curse a mob with maxed confuse and see them kill themselves, another point is, they would worth as oskills, procs and charges this way. Attract would have the double ed, since its for a single target.

I remember enjoying these 2 before HU, like shitloads years ago '-' like 7... But they can be usefull/fun.

As for the other skills, some ideas come to mind:

Poison explosion: Remember those explosive guys from wsk?? kind of similar, Reanimate the corpse just like the old school revive, the reanimated runs to a mob/monster and explodes dealing some psn dmg or some ill, (like stun .3 seconds per lvl or something) and spreading like rabies. The poison last around 2-3 seconds to avoid spreading to much. And a cool down to give it a chanllenge/strategy sense.

In my opinion, it would be really nice.

Shadow Warrior: Here i got something diferent, Swap shadow master to the lvl of the warrior, and instead of the master set the "shadow Mastery" (yes, just like the claw mastery), The sadow master would be weaker and get better with the mastery, when the mastery is maxed, it allows you to summon 2 shadow masters. Also this mastery, would be a sinergy for the other shadow/mental skills, and add some benefit to the assassin builds.

Stun: Make it a knockback-stun small nova?? some aoe ftw, and similar to the mini nova of vengeance. Would be decent when playing zerker or concentrate barbs (builds that already died), this would add that small aoe and crowd control when surrounded.

ice blast: Let it spread like rabies, and give it a cooldown... shoot one to freeze a mob for say... 7 seconds like warcry? A complete freeze would be nice to have, when you need some crowd control.

Fire/cold arrow: This ones ive suggested many times, give them some multi. At lvl 10 shoot 2 and at lvl 20 shoot 3. (Hardpoints)

Skelemages: already suggested this too. Max summon 4, change them to those mages on Diablo's lair (the big ones) and give them novas. Adjust on dmg needed. Give them bonus dmg from LR. This would make the necro have a elemental build.

Id comment more but i gtg '-'


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:45 am 

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Neoiceshroom wrote:
every single skill in the game except for rabies and the poison javazon skills are useless. If you don't play a psn druid/zon then you are useless. GG


LOL. Idiotic comment

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:39 pm 
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so wsup here?? no more feedback?? my suggestions??;D


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:30 pm 
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I'm surprised noone mentioned Inner Sight.

Yep, inner sight, from the amazons. Do you remember it? Cool prerequisite from decoy!
Since its two functions are:
1: illuminate nearby enemies -> Even outclassed by slow missiles, who accomplishes the same function.
2: reduce enemy's def 25 points per soft point, beginning with -50

For a lvl 20 inner sight, you reduce enemies' defense by 525. Nothing else. Useless waste of a skill.

My suggestion: still a gimmick, but ...
Inner sight:
Illuminates enemies making them easier to hunt by you and your party
-1% enemy def. per soft point,
-1% enemy phys resistance per hard point .
Lasts 30 secs, +5 secs per soft point
Illuminates nearby enemies!


That makes inner sight a mediocre ( but usable nonetheless ) 1 point wonder skill, a decent maxed out skill, and an alternative for those who, after maxing the 60 poison/fire/cold/physical amazon builds, are tired of maxing decoy and/or valk

Opinions?

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:43 pm 
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have you been inner sighted by a a1 merc?? they destroy ur defense, that 525 you say its more like 525% of ur based defense (before the enhanced defense on ur gear) so if u have like 3k def base, it reduce ur def around 18k.

i do agree with u when u mean that its a unused skill almost a waste, and could be better with ur suggested improves.

PD. im not sure about it tho, thats just an idea of how it works actually xD


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:50 pm 
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I wasn't talking about PvP. I'm talking about PvM, so it's ok to be that way versus monsters

But, anyway, notice in my suggestion I removed he flat defense drop, so it would also be a little nerf for those who like PvP and abuse a1 mercs only for that inner sight base def drop.

also, now you are here:

Wolfs wrote:

ice blast: Let it spread like rabies, and give it a cooldown... shoot one to freeze a mob for say... 7 seconds like warcry? A complete freeze would be nice to have, when you need some crowd control.



And then glacial spike ... what happens to good old glacial spike? and cool down doesnt synergyzes well with neither blizzard or f.orb , I assure you :P

Ice blast is not the same as ice bolt

Ice bolt partially freezes minor enemies.
Ice blast totally freezes minor enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:03 am 
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tonykantos wrote:
I wasn't talking about PvP. I'm talking about PvM, so it's ok to be that way versus monsters

But, anyway, notice in my suggestion I removed he flat defense drop, so it would also be a little nerf for those who like PvP and abuse a1 mercs only for that inner sight base def drop.


me bad, i wasnt really clear when i gave my point, i was trying to say that inner sight, gives a good -defense from enemies helping your AR if is not too high, i do indeed agree that the skill for the amazon its useless, and could need some good overhaul.. but on mercenary its just ok.

tonykantos wrote:
And then glacial spike ... what happens to good old glacial spike? and cool down doesnt synergyzes well with neither blizzard or f.orb , I assure you :P

Ice blast is not the same as ice bolt

Ice bolt partially freezes minor enemies.
Ice blast totally freezes minor enemies.


Here i believe you miss undestood my original idea, when you play wc barb you can wc once and the mob will stay 7 seconds standing there doing nothing (stunned), there would be a big difference betwen a 7 second huge-mob freeze iceblast and a glacial spike that actually deals dmg and freeze for few seconds a small patch. and the cool down is to avoid exploiting the skill stuning all screen from ranged for undefinetely time. mainly a crowd control skill that deals no dmg with a bigger effect than the other skills


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:33 am 
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I like shadow warrior a lot, since you can have both the warrior and the master. the warrior clones you're attacks; just buff survivability.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:07 am 
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Maybe a good way to help the warrior would be making it untargetable and ignored by enemys. It can't tank now and it still wont be able to tank if its changed to that, just make it less annoying and no need to recast it every 10 seconds.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:21 pm 
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sure!


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Maybe shadow doesnt tank bosses as she used to do... but its a great partner for the battlefield. Having her not able get aggro, the skill would become really useless, since she doesnt really does a significant dmg and mainly serves as tank for mobs.

make her untargetable -1

buff survivality +1


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:56 pm 
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were talking about shadow warrior, not shadow master. shadow master already tanks pretty well. whats the point in 2 skills that are exactly the same?

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:27 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
were talking about shadow warrior, not shadow master. shadow master already tanks pretty well. whats the point in 2 skills that are exactly the same?


true, i apologize, didnt read well, shadow warrior could use that untargetable that would help it much, since she cant tank. But would be even nicer if she had the survivality of master... thats why i suggested a mastery that maxed allow 2 shadowmaster intead of 1 and no shadow warrior (the mastery instead), and the mastery buffing venom, mind blast etc..


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:39 am 
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If a warrior is untargetable then she won't be effective in attacking(all monsters go for you/other summons) ;/. That way it will be only free CoS caster. Buff to damage/surv > ignore by enemies. Smaster could get some buff to dmg too.
Quote:
whats the point in 2 skills that are exactly the same?
Wolfs/Dire wolfs...


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Quote:
whats the point in 2 skills that are exactly the same?
Wolfs/Dire wolfs...


Feel free to make a suggestion...

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:02 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Steel wrote:
Quote:
whats the point in 2 skills that are exactly the same?
Wolfs/Dire wolfs...


Feel free to make a suggestion...


Id suggest making the shadow warrior/ master being useable at same time. However make the warrior only use things like blade armor venom and fade (thereby giving it a tank roll similar to Valk) And make the master less defense and more offensive? or vice versa i suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:19 am 
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you can have them both up at the min.

In my experience, the master spams CoS more than enough. Warriors survivability is terrible though. If it's untargetable, it can still attack enemys just fine (see ravens), it just wont draw aggro so it will die less often. It's impossible to keep both up on a boss already as the cooldown effects both, you will only be casting master as it tanks better. If master is ignored, you may be able to keep it up for a while and make better use of it. Also means you are not waiting every 10 secs after recasting it so it can use fade/bos. As a result, improving the flow of the gameplay.

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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:21 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:28 pm
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
you can have them both up at the min.

In my experience, the master spams CoS more than enough. Warriors survivability is terrible though. If it's untargetable, it can still attack enemys just fine (see ravens), it just wont draw aggro so it will die less often. It's impossible to keep both up on a boss already as the cooldown effects both, you will only be casting master as it tanks better. If master is ignored, you may be able to keep it up for a while and make better use of it. Also means you are not waiting every 10 secs after recasting it so it can use fade/bos. As a result, improving the flow of the gameplay.


Then mayhaps Warrior becoming like the zons decoy. Not sure how balanced it would be with claw block .


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:28 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Steel wrote:
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whats the point in 2 skills that are exactly the same?
Wolfs/Dire wolfs...


Feel free to make a suggestion...
I thought about magic or ele (random) damage to spirit wolfs. But seeing how little pierce summoners get it won't be much effective... or will it?


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 Post subject: Re: List all Useless skills
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:24 am 
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hmm, yeh that could be good. I would say lightning as it kinda fits with their teleporting, but cold may be better for the chill effect. I wouldn't mind seeing them get an aura that will buff other druid summons while it is up. The aura would only have to work as a boolean with a dummy stat dictating if the buff to other summons is active or not, or you could do it on a per level basis for increased ele damage to other summons based on spirit wolves skill level as long as they are in range.

I'm digging added ele damage to attack for them though.

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