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 Post subject: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:43 am 

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Well I've never found a throwing weapon with the indestructible mod on and I can only find 1 rw(Temptation) with it on a throwing weapon. So I dont really know how it works, but if you put Temptation in a throwing weapon and throw it till you reach 0 quantity left, do you still throw the weapon away?! even if the item is eth?
Also I would like to point out that there are plenty of melee rw with indestructible on, and only one for throwers. And that one includes a zod wich isnt easy to get compared to the Honor(low lvl rw with indestructible mod)...
Ofc Temptation is "slightly" better then Honor :P but still.

The replenish quantity mod is super fucking awesome and I love that it is on every single throwing weapon wich also means that eth throwing weapons are very very good. But it kinda keeps us from using our weapons all the time.
If you have 2 sets of eth throwing weapons then you can only kill so much untill you have to sit around and wait for the quantity to slowly go up again. So I would like the rate at wich replenish quantity changed to max 1 in 20 sec, because its not really fun to just stay in town for a 10 min while your weapons regenerates the stack.

Of course this makes eth throwing weapons very usefull, even now but it wont really make throwers overpowered by being able to actually throw a little more.
I actually would like them buffed more then this but that might have sounded unreasonable...
I'm not asking for more damage on weapons and shit I just want to be able to play all the time and not sit around and wait...or is that unreasonable?


sorry about the punctuations and all that grammar stuff :P

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Thats probably the main problem with playing a thrower late game is how fast you throw and how quickly you run out. I ended up having this:
1. 2 non-eth gimmershreds. You can throw the fuck out of them and repair them when they run out (you will have to do this until you get the following, which sucks)
2. 2 eth lacerators for the amp dmg
3. 2 eth gimmershreds as my main dmg doing
4. 2 rare eth socketed ones (will be replaced with rws later)

So I always have a fresh bundle of shit to throw, I run around with all 4 sets of weapons in my cube. With only 3 sets, if you are clearing tundra for example, you will be throwing so much that you will still be able to rip through all 3. I think 4 is the threshold (without fanat lol) to where you can cycle through the 4 pairs and the first will have replenished by the time you finish the fourth.
Not to mention I run around with my 2 gf swords on my switch, and keep sorb rings and other useful crap in my cube, so I run around pretty filled with crap.

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing the weapons replenish faster... at first glance I can't see any way this would make any other build overpowered.. when I first started playing my thrower he was my only char, so when I ran out of my weapons I would afk for a few minutes in game(since they don't replenish if you log), but then I realized that going afk is not ok on these servers...

as for the eth rws running out completely... is this true? I have ran completely out of my unique ones and they dont dissapear..

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:31 pm 

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slappyNuts wrote:
as for the eth rws running out completely... is this true? I have ran completely out of my unique ones and they dont dissapear..


So you never lose unique throw weapons even if they're not indestructible?!
but you do when they are eth right?! dont try that though if your not sure :P

But I accidently threw away a low lvl rw I did, cant remember if it was eth or not though...so you can defenetly throw away rw throw weapons, no idea how it is when they're indestructible though...thats what I'm wondering

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:09 pm 

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I'd like to add that the range for throwing knifes and throwing axes and its exceptional/elite counter parts have really fucking short range.
I mean they dont reach far at all, while the other throw weapons reach to the edge of the screen, wich the throwing knifes and axes doesnt do. They have somewhere around 60% of the other throwing weapons range, would be really nice if they could be buffed to the other throw weapons range.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:28 pm 

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have you tried a smith forged rune? you can buy them pretty much anywhere past A5 norm and they restock your quantity much faster than waiting does, just saying. lol. It's annoying but i see it as a game mechanic. Its what I do when I am low on throwing spears.


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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:04 pm 
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@darwin
the problem, as i mentioned, is that you need an empty cube... lol
EDIT: and you can't repair eth items, which is what you REALLY want to be using anyhow

@verb
I meant to bring that issue up actually and I forgot! It is really fucking annoying that multi-shot arrows will go for EVER until they hit something, javelins will at least go the distance of the screen (and a little more afaik), but the axes.... even if I can target a monster (not name/target locked), I won't be able to hit him when he's in the screen. This is really annoying, because some monsters in your screen you just cannot hit, the axes disappear first.. doesn't seem right. Don't know if there's an easy way to fix this though

EDIT 2: and I'm not saying I want the axes to go forever either, that would be imba (like the multi-shot arrows atm- I heard about a zon killing LoS nec just by multi shotting him from screens away?), but rather at LEAST being able to hit the targets you are able to click with your mouse while they are in the screen. I don't understand why the axes would disappear before they hit a monster you can physically click on.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:43 am 

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Personally I feel like there shouldn't be ammunition for bows/crossbows/throwing weapons. It provides no depth at all to the game, therefor there isn't a reason to have it in the game. I know that arrows can be done away with by an infinite arrow quiver, not sure on bolts(but I assume so) and throwing weapons(not sure).


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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:06 am 
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@Angel
the only problem I would see for infinite arrows is that a zon could just spam multi forever and clear any area solo... I think if arrows wouldn't travel the whole screen- and would have some sort of "range" like the axes and knives as verb and I have mentioned, then it wouldn't be a problem IMO, since you would need to be close enough to the monsters to actually aggro them (as with throw) and you would have to micro around instead of just holding shift L-click/right click (puts book on mouse and goes AFK to clear LoS lol).

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:49 am 

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I would love infinite ammo, but then someone would argue that durability isnt needed either and then the indestructible mod would be useless and so on and so on.
I just want to be able to play a little more and not sit around and wait, so please increase the rate wich you replenish weapons on throw weapons, and fix the range on the throw knifes/axes.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:28 am 
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i personally feel that throwing wpns are different enough from bows that going with an infinite supply on them would be balanced in a way that infinite arrows would not. With arrows, you simply carry some arrows. With throwing wpns you need to either:
a. go back to town
b. have an empty cube

Then again, I wouldn't be terribly bothered by infinite arrows either, so maybe I am not the best judge.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:05 am 

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Imo, just give throwing weapons durability like the other weapons and slow down the rate wich they lose it cus as double thrower you throw like fucking crazy. That way indestructible would count for something on throwing weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Verb wrote:
Imo, just give throwing weapons durability like the other weapons and slow down the rate wich they lose it cus as double thrower you throw like fucking crazy. That way indestructible would count for something on throwing weapons.


nb idea...


blue_myriddn wrote:
With throwing wpns you need to either:
a. go back to town
b. have an empty cube


Or if they're eth (as they should be), those aren't an option and you just need to carry around extras, meaning your cube will definitely not be empty :P

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:42 am 

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Okey I have to say, this SUCKS BALLS!
I beg of you blue or who ever is in charge of next patch, what I'm about to tell you NEEDS to be fixed, please!

I tried the runeword Honor in a hurlbat, I tried this specific rw because it got the mod INDESTRUCTIBLE. But apparently this mod does NOTHING on throwing weapons. Seriously NOTHING!
I tried this in a non eth hurlbat and I still threw the weapon away when reaching 0 quantity left(wich isnt displayed on the weapon btw).
I dont really think that indestructible, in fact thats the opposite of indestructible.
So I'm am 100% sure it would be same on a eth throwing item, wich makes this mod even more useless on throwing weapons. ESPECIALY when there is a runeword(Temptation) that require a zod to make and you would still be able to fucking throw the weapon away if you're not careful.
So please, can you fix this?!

Note: I dont know if this sounds angry or not, its more like I'm in shock over this. But I would also like to note that I do beg you to fix this. So please...PLEASE fix this, for next patch at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:04 am 
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cant be fixed, it's always been like that. If it's such a problem then sockets can be removed from throwing weapons. Replenish can be increased up to 1 every frame (25 a sec) with some minor hard code edits (or set to 1 per sec etc.)

@ the point about not showing how many are left,put throw on a hot key and switch to it ocasionally to check remaining quantity. it saves opening the inventory and looking at the weapon and is alot faster.

Theres a few other ways like making the throwing weapons have "amunition" like arrwos/bolts are for bows/xbows (perhaps an axe/jav/knife pouch used on the off hand) but that still fucks up double throw.

all throwing skills can be made to use no amunition (figured it out a while ago) but that would mean the eth mod would have to be removed from throwing weapons maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:42 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
cant be fixed, it's always been like that. If it's such a problem then sockets can be removed from throwing weapons. Replenish can be increased up to 1 every frame (25 a sec) with some minor hard code edits (or set to 1 per sec etc.)

all throwing skills can be made to use no amunition (figured it out a while ago) but that would mean the eth mod would have to be removed from throwing weapons maybe.


The first thing you said should be made on things that are indestructible since that essentially makes it indestructible. Wich would make the indestructible mod working. I meant the 1 every frame thing.

On the second thing I would hate not having eth on throwing items, I kinda like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:15 am 
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could add the "super replenish" as a second mod on zod runes in weapons.

if you have eth weapons and no need to repair them then it would be easier to just remove the eth mod from them and just increase the damage.

The only skills there is an issue with really is double throw (fast attack speed) and lightning bolt (requires a lot of javs to kill a boss) all other throw skills don't require you to throw very often.

A "stoker" for smith runes would be good IMO, instead of carrying 10-20 of those with you as a thrower, you could just carry a single item with a number of them inside it. each time you repairyour weapon, the quantity of smith runes remaining is reduced by 1. would make repairing throwing weapons alot easier (since they only repair up to 255 anyway)

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:47 am 
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Quote:
if you have eth weapons and no need to repair them then it would be easier to just remove the eth mod from them and just increase the damage.
it won't matter as any norm/superior javelin that is out of ammo vanish. Eth or regular.
Quote:
could add the "super replenish" as a second mod on zod runes in weapons.
Yeah, but need to lower replenish from automagic first, which can affect only new items.


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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:58 pm 

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Removing eth and all that jazz? that sounds stupid and would reduce amount of weapons to use and or take the fun out of making rw and that shit.
Just please do what I said in the begining, increase the rate of replenish quantity and please find a way to make indestructible work on throwing weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:22 pm 
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I just think it's weird that I can't completely throw away my unique weapons, but the rw's will disappear..

and I wouldn't be against the fix purerage recommended.. seems logical and easy enough, although removing eth would remove a bit of fun for a thrower I think it's the answer to a bigger problem (having your weapons vanish :( )

The other item that didn't really get touched on was the fact that throwing axes range is SUPER short, and they will disappear before hitting the targets that are IN THE SCREEN. Javs seem to go a bit further than the screen - is there a way to make them more similar? Or are axes typically stronger than javs (i dont think so?) so this was an answer to that???

@verb
don't get too worked up over your thrower buddy, I told you at the start there are some issues :P. Glad I have someone helping lead this discussions though :)

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:12 am 
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I said ETH should be removed if all throwing skills were changed to not lower quantity. I told you INDY wont work on throwing weapons because they dont have durability. I've explained exactly what is and isn't possible already.

I think I'm done discussing this as you are getting on my nerves now.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:03 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I said ETH should be removed if all throwing skills were changed to not lower quantity. I told you INDY wont work on throwing weapons because they dont have durability. I've explained exactly what is and isn't possible already.

I think I'm done discussing this as you are getting on my nerves now.


What is getting on your nerves really? Because all we asked was NOT to remove ETH, and make indy work through the super replenish thing wich you said was possible to make.
We're NOT asking for infinity quantity on throwing weapons, just a slight increase in replenish rate on all throw weapons.
Seems like you didnt read what we wrote...This isnt unreasonable things we are asking for.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:49 am 
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I answered your question twice, but you pesisted with "Can we make indy work on throwing weapons". Whats so hard to understand about it NOT working on throwing weapons because they have no durability?
I said replenish can be increased with some code editing, what else exactly do you want to be added to this discussion? Allyour points have been answered, asking the same question over and over won't make it possible.

Quote:
please find a way to make indestructible work on throwing weapons.

You say this after I explained it can't be done.

You want super fast replenish on all weapons? sure, then eth should be removed, you can't have it both ways. By that reasoning, all items shouldbe eth and indy.

This discussion is over, you have your answers. "Please find a way to make this work" is just rude. why don't you find a way to make it work?

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:04 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I answered your question twice, but you pesisted with "Can we make indy work on throwing weapons". Whats so hard to understand about it NOT working on throwing weapons because they have no durability?
I said replenish can be increased with some code editing, what else exactly do you want to be added to this discussion? Allyour points have been answered, asking the same question over and over won't make it possible.

Quote:
please find a way to make indestructible work on throwing weapons.

You say this after I explained it can't be done.

You want super fast replenish on all weapons? sure, then eth should be removed, you can't have it both ways. By that reasoning, all items shouldbe eth and indy.

This discussion is over, you have your answers. "Please find a way to make this work" is just rude. why don't you find a way to make it work?


I'm NOT asking for super replenish on ALL weapons. I'm asking that on the weapons with indestructible on!
Yes I'm asking for the replenish to be increase SLIGHTLY on all weapons, not super fast on all of them....geez
And thank you for your response, maybe I wasnt clear enough for you to understand that the super fast replenish was meant for the items with the indestructible mod only, and NOT ALL throwing weapons.
Do you understand my proposal now? sorry for the persistance and the rudeness.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:17 am 
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Now hard cap is set to 1 per 100 frames(4secs). How much is enough for you? How fast does double throw "eat" all quantity?
For me all items should have repl 1sec and removed eth - just like PureRage said. Making item not use stock when throwing is kinda not working. It worked nicely in 1.09 when you just used automagic "throwable", in 1.10 missiles won't hit anything. It probably requires rewriting some code both in client/game sections, too much effort.
Without eth mod throwing weapons would still do massive damage - They get 375 or 425% for 100str and 300% for 100dex.


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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:30 am 
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I tested how long my throw barb took to run out of 2 Gimmershreds (80 ias each). Only other sources of ias were from goldwrap (10%), and my inc speed (9%).
No frenzying, no fanat
Ran out in 3:18

A more realistic scenario, of course, would be running around frenzying a lot of times, which would result in faster throwing later, but some of that throw time will have been replaced with frenzying... I'll time it later to compare results

I also took a screen shot to show how far the axes reach to the edge of the screen before disappearing.

EDIT: apparently the board attachment quota has been reached, not sure how I can upload pictures otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:59 am 

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Steel wrote:
Now hard cap is set to 1 per 100 frames(4secs). How much is enough for you? How fast does double throw "eat" all quantity?


Slappy would probably be the best person to answer that seeing as he's the "mentor" and I'm the "student" :P

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:59 pm 
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Verb wrote:
Steel wrote:
Now hard cap is set to 1 per 100 frames(4secs). How much is enough for you? How fast does double throw "eat" all quantity?


Slappy would probably be the best person to answer that seeing as he's the "mentor" and I'm the "student" :P


Well if the objective is to have a stack of a throw item that runs out at about the same rate as a good item's durability, I would guess that increasing the rate of regeneration 3x would do it

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 11:12 am 
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http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... =8&t=45056 All info is there(I have posted these values before but it's always better to link to the source)... Bumping this old thread as there's a possibility to fix that in upcoming serverside update. Ideas? Set it to 1sec and let ppl have fun with throwing barbs.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:40 am 
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not really following the technicalities of that thread.
what exactly needs to be changed? and how fast will it replenish?

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:49 am 
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Quote:
what exactly needs to be changed? and how fast will it replenish?
6FC4A412 |. 83F8 7D CMP EAX,7D <-125
6FC4A415 |. 7D 05 JGE SHORT D2Game.6FC4A41C
6FC4A417 |. B8 7D000000 MOV EAX,7D <-125
changing these two to 19 (25 in dec) sets repl limit to 1sec. Replenish stat is 100 on all automagic items so 2500/100 = 25frames. No idea what's replenish stat on uniques.


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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:00 am 
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ah - so Hex edits from PureRage. Ok, that one is out of my hands.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:29 pm 
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sure, i'll do that later if it's deff wanted (i guess its worth a test at least)

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:30 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
sure, i'll do that later if it's deff wanted (i guess its worth a test at least)


*thumbs up*

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:45 pm 
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let me know if there's anything I can do to help testing or anything, I'm more than willing

and thanks you guys for looking into this stuff! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Replenish quantity, indestructable on throwing weapons
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
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done, updating the pois sorb topic and changing its name to keep it all in 1 place

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