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 Post subject: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:37 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:51 am
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I suggest to add a second synergy to Fists of Fire/Claws of Thunder/Blades of Ice and maybe to Phoenix too, so that if a player wants a stronger elemental attack type he could spend points to get it.

The synergy could be a fire trap (like Fire Blast) for FoF, a light trap (like Shock Web) for CoT, and Tiger or Cobra Strike for BoI.


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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:01 am 

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( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=205&start=30 )
blue_myriddn wrote:
I have to say the one thing that has been sort of tedious is a pack of unique berserkers, but if memory serves those things are freakin tedious with any build.

( viewtopic.php?f=10&t=205&start=50 )
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Take my wwsin for example, 11kish venom (8.5k venom then 40% poison skill damage added after its cast) and 3-4k phys, thats 22k a sec dps roughly, not including the physical. Thats will pretty crappy gear and it shows as even that level of damage is pretty worthless in act 5. I was playing her with edd's druid today and all she was doing was making things follow her, didnt make much of an impact on anything besides the weaker trash. My standards are high because I know what kinda damage is needed end game to actualy contribute to a team. makigh things change colour (coz thats all it`ll be doing in a5) while other team members kill it is not fun. All you are doing is filling up spaces that a usefull build could be using, I'd rather make something else or ditch the useless skill for something more usefull to the team.

For some builds, the game has become incredibly TEDIOUS. Back in the 1.16 version of this mod, things were fun, and I had enjoyed not being forced to play certain builds like on Bnet. But I guess the way how this version was balanced was an accident. Since then it has only been a delusion, I tried to get over it but it doesn't work.

There is a big confusion between the game being hard or the game being ridiculously tedious, at least for some builds, again. Of course patience could be seen as a challenge, like in LoS killing 1 champion wyrm in 15 minutes; but for me this slowness is only boring to death.

We have to be a hacker, a loader abuser (playing the perfect team alone) or an Over Powered character player (when I looked at the necro skills trees and couldn't believe it) just to be heard about how to BALANCE the skills of characters...
I've repeated to only raise the AR bonus of Claw Mastery (for Bladesin and WWsin) and Enchant because every others AR based skills have been buffed, but no fuck no... And elemental martial arts didn't got buffed, they even get nerfed at lower lvls; it's kinda funny because in 1.2G my MA did like no damage to nm Izual with twinked items.

And this 4 spawn monsters does nothing to prevent rushs, people use higher lvls chars and hide wherever they can, it doesn't affect them at all. All this 4 spawn does is only harms more the weaker builds players who try to MF alone.

And you know what ? The game is still too easy.
Because with the perfect team of OP chars, the game is a cake. Zzzzz...


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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:24 am 
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completely true

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:51 am 
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4 spawn aint a problem for me, I usualy load my games up to the hilt even when playing alone just for the exp bonus. I very rarely play in a group bigger than 4 as it gets to hectic and any more than 5 tops, mostly get in the way and cause mass counters so single spawn ain't an issue either. I see whare you are coming from entirely about solo farming. I prefer to go full game anyway as I mf in the furthest area possible, exp in a single player game sucks balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:33 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:19 pm
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Kinda sad to see how neglected this topic was. Tsume made a lot of good points about the direction the mod has taken in the last few patches, and of course the poor MA sin. Ever since Mancer set out to make the mod "harder" because of all the bitching about curse immunity and single spawning, all it has done is punish the weaker builds(in my humble opinion, of course!).

The top tier builds still did great, while all low tier ones got worse and never received any buffs to compensate. Most "buffs" made to weak skills were insignificant, and all the "nerfs" to the strong skills likewise. The gap between them only widened when all the fun items were changed or taken out. And as Tsume mentioned the single spawn "fix", which again punished low tier builds a lot more than the top.

A1 mercs(yes, I am still bitching about them) still rule the AOE game(and probably always will), making any of the low tier caster builds redundant in a party. Why bother with any other AOE builds at all when you've got your personal screen clearing mercenary to do more damage than yourself, faster, and safer? This extends beyond trash mobs, as A1 mercs can still take down sub bosses just as easily via GA. God forbid you want to join a party with your character that isn't cookie cutter. You'll spend most of the time just trying to keep up with the party, let alone contributing anything. Sure there's always been certain builds that could clear mobs faster than most, but at least you still had to do it yourself. Now every build has access to such AOE via A1 mercs. I guess I'm mostly referring to endgame, which is a joke in itself as most casters or elemental AOE characters(especially low tier ones) don't even shine until then.

As for MA sins(yes Terry there is actually half a fucking skill tree outside of tstrike+datil) they indeed have needed some love for a long time. Most of what annoys me about the phoenix skills besides them being completely blown out of the water by a 40 pt build(tstrike+dtail), was the mechanics of the skills themselves. Fists of fire are the only charges that I ever found useful. The lightning charges are a fucking joke, charged bolts being released in a circle around the targeted mob was just jaw dropping to me. Ice simply suffers from a lack of damage. The phoenix skill itself is so hard to use for fire&lightning as keeping only one or two charges consistently is damn near impossible with clawblock and FHR. The third charge(some ice nova?) suffered from the same aforementioned problems of the charged bolt from CoT IIRC.

MA sins are definitely one of the most fun builds out there, which is why it's such a bummer Terry never toyed with them more. I would have loved to see maybe scrapping phoenix strike altogether, improving on the three elemental charge up skills, and adding a couple more elemental based finishing moves. Or perhaps combining phoenix's skills with the respective elemental charge up skills. Ideally, something like FoF third charge taking the meteor charge from PS, CoT's third charge replaced with the real charged bolt skill, BoI's third charge the ice nova/bolt shit from PS.

tl;dr
fuck your ADD. I'll stop rambling now.


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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:44 am 
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I agree that there are good points raised, but the suggestions (strengthening builds) is the wrong direction.

The real problem is as identified - champ versions of the super mobs (maraliths, wyrms, etc). A more generalized statement is that anytime you have a sharp variance in difficulty it impacts the flow of the game in a negative way. For example, you are running along just fine and BAM you ru in to a monster that is a serious pain and frustration sets in. The "balance" is to ensure that game difficulty is consistent rather than choppy.

Bosses are another great example of this. I often see new players cruising through A4 with confidence only to run full in the face of Diablo and get crushed over and over and over and over..... Sure, these players are foolish and with the right gear, strategy and mindset the COULD overcome Diablo, but in their defense the buildup to the fight (running through A4) really doesn't prepare them since the "trash" mobs die so insanely fast.

The reality though is that this mod is not balanced, nor will it ever likely be balanced. Terry really has done a great job and he shouldn't be disparaged in any way because at the end of the day he isn't taking home a paycheck for the work that he has done. This is not a professional gaming company, so it isn't suprisingly that the end results arne't professional level. There are no paid testers to run through this stuff. Heck - there are even professional game companies that don't kick out a balanced project, which just speaks even higher to Terry's efforts.

So sure - there is plenty that can be changed, but at the end of the day the mod still is overall fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:53 am 
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Phoenixsin is great fun, and they totaly suck balls. I just leveled an act 3 fire merc for mine tonight and joy of joys, he is clearing alot faster than I can...

If you get anywhare near a poison enchanted mob you are screwed and end up missing the charge you are after (first for me) and doing terrible damage with the next charge. Because of that I ended up maxing light claws so I was dealing some damage when i missed my charge. My idea was just to go the fire route and drop mass meteors as fast as possible. you are better off with a meteor sorc as at level 39 phoenix strike Im dealing 12k per meteor.....6.6k avg fire damage a sec. yeh it sounds ok since there is no cooldown on it, however the times you miss a charge, get fucked over by clawblock (psn chanted shit) by the time the meteors actualy drop a fire sorc could have wiped that mob plus another screen or 2 out easily. I have found more use for the 1 point dtail I have since it is dealing 20k damage per kick and in the time it would take to drop a meteor, 1 point dtail has killed the mob. Great to know I just wasted 60 points on a skill that is worse than 1 point dtail without ts charged up...

I have both a meteor sorc and a meteor sin atm and its laughable considering the sin needs to go toe to toe to deal her damage. Im not gonna even bother listing the sorcs damage as chances are they will be nerfed beyond all recognition if I do...

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
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Wait, it's surprising that elemental builds are worse than physical? This mod has pretty much always limited the range of characters to a very select few, which is personally why I don't play much anymore. It got boring seeing the same few builds, over and over, that wipe out everything without trying while all the other builds just try to kill the trash mobs.


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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:15 pm 
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My physical sin did just about 500k w/o gcs.
She could tank/kill most bosses without to much worry, ofc thats with the right buffs and technique.
Only added support needed was amp really.
Trash wasnt to bad to clean either.

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:21 pm 
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we are talking about phoenix strike, dtail was buffed when it wasnt needed yet phoenix was nerfed slightly when it was already less powerful. ts/dtail is overpowered as it is

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:40 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
we are talking about phoenix strike, dtail was buffed when it wasnt needed yet phoenix was nerfed slightly when it was already less powerful. ts/dtail is overpowered as it is


Agreed. The range on it is PHENOMENAL and the damage is just...you don't even need anyone else, could solo almost everything with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:09 pm 
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add in easy max res, easy max dr%, clawblock, resumonable tank and death sentry and you have a boss killer with huge trash farming potential too. I still dont know why terry decided to buff kicks when they were already so powerfull. Especialy when phoenix strike (that has always been a weak skill and alot harder to use) had its damage reduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:04 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
add in easy max res, easy max dr%, clawblock, resumonable tank and death sentry and you have a boss killer with huge trash farming potential too. I still dont know why terry decided to buff kicks when they were already so powerfull. Especialy when phoenix strike (that has always been a weak skill and alot harder to use) had its damage reduced.


Yeah that's very true. Quite a few builds deal massive damage while also being easily able to achieve max res, block, life, etc...


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 Post subject: Re: Add a second synergy to elemental martial arts
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Even though they are pretty weak in comparison to a ts/dtail sin, Phoenixsins are still a ton of fun if you dont waste time charging every single attack. I like Simplicity. :D
Ps. pro soundtrack FTW! :mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YEDB-P1PMQ

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