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 Post subject: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:44 pm 
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looking for some feedback of anyone who has a Hdin.


i want to know the pro and cons of the patch on Hdin?


I think my biggest problem was when i got to act bosses with groups i ran with,my hammers were not doing any damage to the boss.the group i was with wanted to see how hammers do now. at andy n dury on a 6x game there was nothing happening to their health when i attacked.

Plus with skulls taking a nerf to 5% and the str nerf on gear it take away from his tanking ability. the hdin is not a typical caster class u have to get up close n personal to u target.

i think now the hdin is far outclassed by poison and all other casters now, with the bypass he was on par with the top dps class, cause u were able to focus on dr and defensive stats.


looking for anyone else's opinion on the this

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:19 pm 
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you loading up on -magic resist?

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:25 pm 
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only got -37 right now facets aint coming to easy this ladder,plus i was just stating what i went through. i'll give a full detail when i gear him out.


i think the ele shields r not to appelling for hdins with lower stats on -magic then the all the other crafts i think they should b on the same scale as f/l/c/p
and the armor should do -magic too.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:26 pm 
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no diamonds?

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:29 pm 
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-10 zaka and diamonded gris caddy own everything. that`s -70 in total.
should be enough for bosses, so y can load emeralds/ruby in your helm.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:30 pm 
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i'm using heaven's light with 2 uber diamonds, highlord,and -7 temp's

also temps's - magic should b 12-16 like the others

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:11 pm 
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The reason the -magic resist is lower than the others like on templar and crafted shield is because monsters magic resist is way lower than the other resists.


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Hflame wrote:
The reason the -magic resist is lower than the others like on templar and crafted shield is because monsters magic resist is way lower than the other resists.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:33 pm 
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yeah that pierce shouldnt be on par. as far as i understand hdins were actually buffed in t he late game cause res can go negative now?

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:28 pm 

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you needs lots of - magic resist now. hammers used to place the boss resist at 0. so now you need enough magic pierce to either put the resist at 0 or below. generally you'll want some sort of sanctuary for magic pierce and diamonds in weapon. hammers tend to get better as - magic resist becomes more available.


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:54 pm 

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anyone know if hammers were ignoring the absorbs on the boss charm last ladder?


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Bypass worked on undeads and demons, Abs 40% magic on charm should be skipped on bosses then, it's really hard to tell, but I've seen Sesshomaru 96lvl din vs Andy and he was struggling. Andy has 70%magic res and 40% mag abs, she's a demon right? so last ladder she was easily destroyed by hammers. Magic pierce should be a little higher IMO, A little.


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:43 am 
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ele caster get to stack lr, convic, and pierce on gear.Hammers only get pierce from gear,conc should get a 1% magic pierce for a hard pt.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:47 am 
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santuary has magic pierce i believe


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:55 pm 

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-20% from sanctuary pierce not sure if it gains pierce from hard/soft points , but usually conc is better as it just adds so much dmg, unless u use like a sanctuary shield or something win/win


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:19 pm 
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if you do 100k hammers with conc and 10k without vs a monster with 99% resist. You do 1k with conc and 2k with sanc instead. It all depends on the resistance of the monster.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:55 pm 
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What about changing fist of heavens to have the bypass now?
its a single target dps - makes sense to be a 'boss spell'
and now that hammers no longer bypass its not automatically outclassed by hammers?

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:33 am 

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Would be nice if magic facets had something else on them, be it % increase in magical damage or some other stat that would be useful to pretty much every magic damage dealing source(life comes to mind).

Would be nice if it had ctc hammer on them as well, since it would really benefit hammerdins to have free hammer casts especially in dealing with mobs.

Also concentration having a decent amount of pierce added onto it would be beneficial as well, since getting pierce is pretty hard when it comes to magic, and too easy when it comes to elemental.


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:49 am 
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if getting magic pierce is challenging, I would rather just lower magic resist on monsters. That allows it to be specific to difficulties rather than hammerdins wrecking things on NM and then being mediocre in Hell.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:22 am 

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Well, I'd assume the majority of the magic pierce would be taken once you get facets and end game gear. Maybe a zod runeword that can be made in a scepter that has say -25 pierce.


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:29 am 
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Angel wrote:
Well, I'd assume the majority of the magic pierce would be taken once you get facets and end game gear. Maybe a zod runeword that can be made in a scepter that has say -25 pierce.

i don't understand what you are saying.

Having specific items solve problems though just forces people to use specific items. That's not good balance. If there is a problem (not enough dmg done by magic attacks in Hell), fix the problem, don't put a band-aid on it.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Well, I'd assume the majority of the magic pierce would be taken once you get facets and end game gear. Maybe a zod runeword that can be made in a scepter that has say -25 pierce.


Errmm....
Heaven's Will - Zod Cham Lo

+5 to All Skills
+50% Faster Cast Rate
+50% Increased Attack Speed
All Resistances +35-40%
-25% to Enemy Magic Resistance
20% Chance to Cast Level 40 Fist of the Heavens when Striking
Level 20 Meditation Aura when Equipped
Indestructible
Hit Freezes Target
Slows Target by 4%
15% Chance of Deadly Strike

Made in Scepters and Maces...

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:47 pm 
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have a -5 facet for sale


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:56 pm 
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I would say buff hammers vs lowering monsters magic res. I've been able to squeeze 85% + -% magic res on my necro, and his teeth does really well vs trash. Lowering magic res anymore would make him godly. This is just vs trash though, he's pretty mediocre vs bosses. Even with LoS and sammy charms he's not putting out over 30k spear.


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:05 pm 
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good info, thx furycury.
what sort of dmg are Hammerdins hitting now?

What about bone spirit? I seem to recall some discussion on that skill in the Patch Suggestions forum. Seems like that should be the boss killer spell.

I also recall discussion of making bone spear fire 3 at a time - that seemed to make sense to me too. That makes spear an upgrade of teeth, kinda like how fireball is an upgrade from firebolt.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:42 pm 
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guided missiles are controlled by the skill function and multiple shot missile skills are also controlled by the skill functions. You could make it fire 3 but they would have no seeking ability.

You can emulate a seeking ability by making a chain of maybe 15 missiles. missile 1-14 would use lightning furys hit functions and be set to spawn a single missile, always explode and colide kill on. Giving them a short range (5-7 frames) would mean each one "explodes" and creates the new missile (with the same look. Doing that you get a "retarget" every 5-7 frames to create a multiple seeking missile effect. as long as there is no actual exlosion effect, the missiles make one continuous looking missile with a seeking ability. The speed would justify it I would say, spirit is ok but the mana cost is huge compared to spear and the damage is generally lower (easier to get higher level spear), even with 2-3k less spear damage than spirit, spear is still better since you can spam it for much longer than spear

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:46 pm 
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i believe blue was talking about spear producing 3 missiles at a time per cast, not spirit doing 3 homing missiles


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:20 pm 

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bone shade still better no? can get 39 pierce? for necro ofc


Last edited by blinky99 on Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:17 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I also recall discussion of making bone spear fire 3 at a time - that seemed to make sense to me too. That makes spear an upgrade of teeth, kinda like how fireball is an upgrade from firebolt.


Not a bad idea. However, spear damage would have to take a decent nerf if it was to proc 3 spears per cast. As it is now, spear is the main boss skill, so with the damage nerf to spear, I'd say buff spirit. Like Kev said, spirit's mana cost is pretty hefty, might as well increase the damage by 1/3 and make it the main boss skill while teeth/spear are more trash/multi-target friendly.

Another thought, which would require more work, would be to make the higher lvl skill tiers more effective. It takes like 4 skill points to get another 1k damage out of teeth. Spear is in the area of 2k damage per 3 skill points, and this is at lvl 50+ skill lvl's. Maybe it's just me, but I expected a little more increase per point at that lvl.

As the hammerdin goes, he has it rough. My vita whore hdin last ladder only had like 7k life with self bo endgame. Now, it would be even less w/o str on enigma, and blocking is harder also w/o the dex. Since the guy has no recastable tanks, he's taking the brunt of the attacks.

Also, the PnB nec has toothrow with -res and massive +skills to his attack. The hdin however, is much harder to get -res on. The armor being one area, his weapon also. Nec can get -40% res on his wand alone, max for a paly is 28 I believe(4%heavens light with 2 ubers?), we'll say 25% from wep. Since the paly is his only tank, its really hard to add -6% magic facets instead of rubies. best case scenario a paly would have:

Griffons with 3 facets (-18%)
Heavens Will (-25%)
Wisp for oak/sob (-10%)
Zakarum Ammy (-10%) if your lucky
Dscale
enigma
souldrainers
crafted caster boots
immortal flesh

-63% res in a best case scenario. I know what your gonna say, "He can use 3 facets in his shield, and 4 facets in temps!!!" Sure, if he wants to cut his dps in 1/3 by not being able to tele, not have max res, and shit DR without diamonds/skulls in his shield.

A fully faceted out hdin is unrealistic. A sorc can do this, because she has tele, fastest cast rate in the game to make tele effective, and longer ranged skills than the hdin. Imagine trying to tank a sub-boss on a paly without max res, no DR, and no rubies to help his life pool.

Reducing magic res on monsters would make the nec stronger, which doesn't need to be done, but at the same time, I'd think the hdin needs some help. Maybe alter an armour and paly shield to magic specific mods? A paly version of toothrow and marrowalks would help him a lot I think.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:39 am 
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right now i'm doing 24k hammers thats with no shards,anni,brain,heart or dscale and the new zod rw.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Seems like a rare +skills hammer with 4x uber (46%) or a white +skills scepter with 6x uber (72%) would be the way to really get some mass -magic resist rolling on a hammerdin.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Question about the bypass if anyone knows...

Did the bypass also effect boss Magic Absorb granted to them by the boss charms? Or was it purely just their magic resistance?

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:37 am 
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weapon is typically an easy place to score some fcr i dont know how you could sacrifice that for pierce since it would change the viability of the rest of the gear to get max cast no?

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:41 am 
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breakpoints are at 75% and 125%
not terribly challenging to hit those end game with alternative gear.

But ya, to get the really high -magic resists, there are of course trade offs. Would depend on your character, other gear and of course the party you are running with.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:47 am 
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well i dont see any fcr coming from armor helm or shield or even ammy for that matter so unless u roll the ring with with 20 fcr +1 life/str/res ect ur not gonna hit it with the gear thats needed to tank since ur in melee range unlike most casters.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:44 am 

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Zikur wrote:
well i dont see any fcr coming from armor helm or shield or even ammy for that matter so unless u roll the ring with with 20 fcr +1 life/str/res ect ur not gonna hit it with the gear thats needed to tank since ur in melee range unlike most casters.

All caster crafts can give ridiculously high fcr numbers. I've crafted 2 pair with 30+fcr. So ya it can be easily accomplished.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:43 am 
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Zikur wrote:
well i dont see any fcr coming from armor helm or shield or even ammy for that matter so unless u roll the ring with with 20 fcr +1 life/str/res ect ur not gonna hit it with the gear thats needed to tank since ur in melee range unlike most casters.

What's wrong with FCR from a helm? Caster crafts can be slick, Kiras has 4 sockets, you can make one of them an Amn. Griffon has 30%. With Crown of Ages having a high str req, it isn't as tasty for hammerdins anymore.

You could give up teleport for higher dmg, although tele is nice.
Ammy? Why not?

No go on the shield though I agree. That leaves gloves, belt, boots, rings - lots of options.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:36 am 
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Maybe add 2-3 sockets to astreons? Then it would compete with the other class specific lvl 90+ weapons. With 2 sockets it could hit -44% res, that's if you find a perfect -magic astreons.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Question about the bypass if anyone knows...

Did the bypass also effect boss Magic Absorb granted to them by the boss charms? Or was it purely just their magic resistance?



i think the bypass ignored the sorb,last ladder andy was a jokenow since the bypass is gone with -60 i still have trouble with andy.


if the bypass is gonna b removed values for -magic should be increased on items and conc should get a hard pt based -magic

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:47 pm 
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cant increase magic pierce across because of bone necro's becoming more powerful

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:05 am 
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I never thought the bypass was op, it kept dins on par with pioson char's and meteor sorcs in terms of killing speed.


if u want to balance the hdin u have to either enable the bypass back or give conc the passive -magic like the old cold mastery giving a 1% per lvl or .75% er lvl for all pts hard or soft

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:20 pm 
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Sesshomaru wrote:
i think the bypass ignored the sorb,last ladder andy was a jokenow since the bypass is gone with -60 i still have trouble with andy.

if the bypass is gonna b removed values for -magic should be increased on items and conc should get a hard pt based -magic


I'm 99.9% positive that the bypass ignored Magic Absorbs. I just tested a fully geared Hammerdin against Hell Andariel in single player, and the damage was pathetic. This was with -69% magic pierce and level 56/53 BH/Conc.

If the bypass didn't effect Magic Absorbs, a Hammerdin with -69% magic pierce should drop Andariel faster than ever (she has 66% magic resist). However, this was definitely not the case as it took 5+ minutes to drop her.
Last patch, with the bypass, 35k Hammers would have made short work of Andariel with no problems.

So it looks like Blessed Hammer damage is pretty much fucked against bosses now due to no longer bypassing boss absorbs. This should probably be looked into since Hammerdins were a viable and very popular build.
Either the bypass should be reimplemented (imo, Hammerdins got hit hard enough with all the defensive gear nerfs, and the major Enigma nerf) or increase Hammer damage greatly to compensate for the fact it now preforms quite crappy.

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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:37 pm 
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how is the hammer damage compared to other magic damage spells/skills?


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 Post subject: Re: How are hammers doing without the bypass
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:33 am 
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hammers r doing the same as last patch, but with the boss charm sorb and and defensive nerfs u notice a big difference in kill power.

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