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 Post subject: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:08 pm
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This is an idea I am expanding on that I thought of while responding in another thread.

First removal of the physical resistance Bosses gain from their charm. :D It has been discussed in other threads and I don't think anyone is against this.

Goals
The main goal of this suggestion is to separate Tanks and Physical Damaging(PHY/DAM) builds. Other goals include; making amplify damage a desired curse and make people forget about %physical pierce because it isn't a solution worthy of HU.

The Problem
Diablo 2's stance on items has been the higher level requirement the more/better mods they pile onto the item. This has led to many builds and play styles to desire the same items. Well, when you get down to it there isn't much choice for PHY/DAM or Tank builds.

Suggestion
My suggestion is to implement different armors and weapons for Tanks and PHY/DAM builds. My thought is; If you remove the defensive benefit from armors/weapons then it should justify adding offensive benefit. And the reverse should hold true.

For Tanks
Low strength requirement armors and weapons to discourage using high strength weapons and focus more points in Vitality.
These items should also be made undesirable by any caster by not containing any obvious caster friendly mods. (FCR, -% enemy resistance, etc.)
Estimated MODs
+skills only to Druid/Barbarian
%Enhanced Defense
+Vitality/Life/%Life
Damage Reduction %
PDR/MDR
+All Resistance

For PHY/DAM
High strength requirement armors and weapons that benefit their Physical damage.
Estimated MODs
+all skills or class specific
%Crushing Blow
%Deadly Strike
%Open Wounds
%Enhanced Damage
%Attack Speed
+Min/Max Damage
-Enemy Defense
+Attack Rating
Minor defensive benefit such as +all resist but this shouldn't be nearly as significant as the tank equipment.


Problems:
What about Bow/Crossbow Amazons? Amazons using Bows/Crossbows raise a complex problem. Although Bow/XBow Amazons can be used to deal only physical damage their main stat for damage is Dexterity. There are two fixes for this.
1. Change Bows/Crossbows to Strength requirement and change the DexBonus to a StrBonus. OR
2. Make some Bow/XBow Amazon armors, low strength like Tank equipment but have MODs that make this equipment desirable to only Bow/Xbow Amazons. (That's the tricky part)

What is stopping PHY/DAM builds from using tank equipment? Nothing. The solution is to provide a minimum amount of defensive mods to make the PHY/DAM builds comfortable with wearing the equipment that increases their damage. If roles are followed then a PHY/DAM build should have no problem tackling a boss if there is a proper tank to take the beating while the PHY/DAM build unleashes in relative safety.

What about Hybrids? If the mods are done correctly then a Hybrid should fall between a great tank and a great PHY/DAM, but not exceling in either.

Why not just get the strength required for all equipment? The thought is with strength not being found on equipment people will be reluctant to invest 100+ stat points in strength to be able to wear PHY/DAM equipment. Those extra points could turn into a good chunk of life on a properly equipped tank.

Let me know what you think. I know I didn't think of all the issues.
Thanks :)


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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:07 am
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Interesting thoughts, but you found the problem with it as well:

Trafalgar wrote:
What is stopping PHY/DAM builds from using tank equipment?


With the exception of amazons, physical damage dealers have to go close to the big bad boss. And going close to the boss without tanking capabilities means certain death.

If you want to really differentiate them, you should probably try tweaking the weapons: tanker weapons should have defensive mods and mediocre damage while offensive weapons should go for damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:51 am 
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by in large, this has been implemented - I just felt that strength wasn't the appropriate balancing mechanism for this.

A character could most certainly go with only 100 strength and use Silks of the Victor end game. While they would lose out on the benefits that the 232 strength tyrael's offers - they would also gain the benefits of having 132 more points in vitality.

Similar story with weapons - you can already find low damage/low strength weapons.

This is even more true with rares.

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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:02 pm
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Quote:
The main goal of this suggestion is to separate Tanks and Physical Damaging(PHY/DAM) builds
It's done, Smiters have 75%block and 20%dr at start.
Also these suggestions are for a next bigger patch/reset which I doubt will happen any soon or ever - patch, as reset probably will be in next 7-8 months.
Quote:
What is stopping PHY/DAM builds from using tank equipment? Nothing.
General lack of good fhr breakpoints, high strength requirement, the same what caster gear offers but not allowing them to tank. If you want to use gg tank gear on sorc make sure you have many res charms, fhr charms, +20hp scs etc, your fcr will suck beyond anything, 0 mana, limited movement. If smiter wants to tank he buys magic shield from shop, craft it, put some amethyst, diamonds in tors/head, farm 16 juvs, right click smite on boss and watch tv.


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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:08 pm
Posts: 72
Shantu wrote:
If you want to really differentiate them, you should probably try tweaking the weapons: tanker weapons should have defensive mods and mediocre damage while offensive weapons should go for damage.
I have armors and weapons included when discussing the mods they should have for the different roles.

blue_myriddn wrote:
This is even more true with rares.
I was thinking of Unique items only. The integration into the other item types such as sets/rares/crafts/runewords would certainly cause some headaches.

Steel wrote:
It's done, Smiters have 75%block and 20%dr at start.
Also these suggestions are for a next bigger patch/reset which I doubt will happen any soon or ever - patch, as reset probably will be in next 7-8 months.
I never intended this to be a quick fix. The idea is to further develop HU's concept of roles without shafting PHY/DAM builds by giving bosses ridiculous amounts of PHYSICAL RESISTANCE to stop Tank/Damage builds from soloing. The thought is you wouldn't be able to solo bosses as a tank because your damage would be way to low and you wouldn't be able to solo as a PHY/DAM build because your defenses are squishy enough.
Steel wrote:
General lack of good fhr breakpoints, high strength requirement, the same what caster gear offers but not allowing them to tank. If you want to use gg tank gear on sorc make sure you have many res charms, fhr charms, +20hp scs etc, your fcr will suck beyond anything, 0 mana, limited movement. If smiter wants to tank he buys magic shield from shop, craft it, put some amethyst, diamonds in tors/head, farm 16 juvs, right click smite on boss and watch tv.
That's the point of the suggestion. To discourage damage builds from using the suggested tank equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:32 pm 
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You can't have roles in HU, it's not like WoW where 25 guys are killing one mob for 2h, tank dies everyone dies. Teams here are smaller and in order to advance you must do some damage, be able to solo things - not act bosses - to get gems, runes, uniqs etc. etc. Ofc you have merc for that which isn't really playing, any dork can get merc and let he/she kills stuff for you while you shift + potkey. I did tank din tho, with gear you couldn't get while played from start, he's amazing weak vs anything that moves, for bosses he's OK, just ok, not like 2 steps before any other melee. Weak crowd control + great boss tanking makes him "fun char", I'd not recommend it anyone and wouldn't want to play a game where tanks are just tanks nothing more. Ofc people would roll only casters and abuse system, as let's say you'd have to rely on your team, seeing how realm looks like I can say you would have to play with your friends or after act is done go 2 acts back and farm gear - yes, looters sux ;]. And ofc it's only my opinion yet maybe it went offtopic.


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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:51 am
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I think this 'master race' of players that HAVE to play with a team to advance is driving us in the wrong direction for balance. I'm not against teamwork, I'm against nerfing this shit so hard that we can't play.

Focus on making it advantageous for playing with others, but don't make it impossible to solo, just slow or tough, kind of like last season?

Face it, no one clears tundra with a zealer, it's too slow.

If you want people to play with a team you will have to remove items from the game. I don't play with groups to farm my gear, and you run bosses for the gear you need.

If you remove all items it's not diablo 2 anymore, it's some washed down game made for the 'master race' who have to use this 'teamwork'.

It was fine last season, sure it was easy to do bosses but, it's diablo 2 man what am I supposed to do, not solo shit?

Your gonna have to nerf this crap out of a lot of things and give bosses poison and fire immune on top of the physical immune, then I might not be able to solo.. hmm maybe a geared frostbite druid can do shit too, make them all cold immune too.. hmm.

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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:41 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:08 pm
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I think you are incorrect.

Making Hell Bosses Difficult to Impossible to solo is what keeps the community in games with multiple people. This is the main reason I play HU instead of vanilla Diablo 2 on battle.net where no one needs parties and bots are the majority.

People are unlikely to party unless they are REQUIRED, just look at battle.net. And with the limited number of games that can be hosted on HU parties are necessary to accommodate the community.

Bosses dropping the good items on a regular basis is the system implemented to drive party play.

I think you have a view that doesn't speak for the majority. I believe people come to HU to party and/or have a challenging experience.

If you want to solo farm bosses all day go play vanilla. If you want to solo farm bosses and brag about it go bot on battle.net.


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 Post subject: Re: Physical Damage Fix (not a simple suggestion)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
If you want to solo farm bosses all day go play vanilla. If you want to solo farm bosses and brag about it go bot on battle.net.

12342351231545 meph runs are waiting for you.

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