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 Post subject: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
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I don't know if anyone else has played a venger at all but the changes make them worse than they previously were. I'm currently level 80 in NM a5 and can BARELY kill trash or touch a mini boss.. and I'm TWINKED out as much as you can be. I have over 120+ Max all on a Lvl 80 char.. was using headstriker and pushing only 8k damage. The fpa is already low on a venger.. nerfing the damge in half and making it "splash" doesn't suffice as a fixable change in the build. They still suck horribly.. I've been nothing but an aura bitch since I've hit 36 on this build, and I am playing it to the best of it's ability, honestly... I'll take feedback from others who have played one because I'm sure they feel the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:58 pm 
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why are you using Headstriker? That seems like a terrible choice for a Venger, deadly strike and other forms of off-wpn damage enhancements do not impact your final veng dmg.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:01 pm 
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I have an avenger in normal a5.. but to be honest, I've given up on him. I was too vulnerable to tank properly, and my damage wasn't that good. My gear sucks though, running around with a Diggler knife..


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:55 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
why are you using Headstriker? That seems like a terrible choice for a Venger, deadly strike and other forms of off-wpn damage enhancements do not impact your final veng dmg.


I haven't been using him that much.. that's why. It's irrelevant though.. the weapon I'm using. It's going to be the same regardless of what weapon.. the ED was nerfed way too low.. the splash damage is HARDLY noticeable due to such low damage and ofc vengers low FPA. I'm also using a shield with +50 max a long with TONS of charms.. I have +120 ++ max as I stated I'll change weapon right now but It won't do much difference.

I just switched to BK wep.. I attack a little faster and do 12k MAX at Lvl 82.. such low DAMAGE considering I'm using a a 220-303 dmg wep with +120 max from charms and gear. I'll see how this build progresses but thus far to L82 I have not seen a suitable change to the venger. At least before.. he could kill single targets.. now less or more he is not suitable for trash or single targets. I think the ideal direction of changing the venger with splash was an excellent idea.. but It doesn't seem like it's going to work out with a harsh damage reduction or conversion of half damage into splash.

Nerfing ED 1/3d may have been better for starters. Like I said.. I can't make a final verdict until he is geared out to the best of ability.. but likewise.. what fun is it to play a character that must be twinked to the max to be viable? Should be a fun over all character to play from start to finish. I say increase the ED.. not 100% but at least 25% more than what it use to be.. for starters.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Weapon choice is pretty huge, but even with that said I don't think that Venge will ever be a powerhouse build - just too many challenges to really overcome. Probably the best chance of success is to use a 2h beast weapon - but of course your resists will be shot to shit with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:15 pm 
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dmg got nerfed?? thats stupid....


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:19 pm 

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You don't sound like someone interested in actually fixing the build. I never said it was suppose to be a power house build.. but at least they should be viable in some aspects. The intention was to fix them or balance them, isn't that why the splash damage effect was created? Makes no sense to start something and then just say "Oh they never were meant to be 'powerhouse' anyway. As an elemental melee char.. nerfing the ED half was way too much.. and going 2h on a venger? Not a good idea and I shouldn't have to state why. I know weapon choice is big but since you've mentioned the challenges to overcome.. mind stating some? The only real problem is the HUGE nerf to ED in my opinion but like I said.. more feedback would be required, my opinion alone won't suffice enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:20 pm 

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Yes wolfs damage was nerfed 50% and a splash effect was created so the damage IS spread now.. still shouldn't have nerfed ED on a melee char with 8FPA.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:23 pm 
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on the duscussion on the avenger changes, i dont remmenber someone stating that the splash would come with a dmg nerf of 50%... this is a new for me -_-'

Hope there are not more surprises like this... already got kind of dissappointed with some things


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:23 pm 
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I dunno the logic - I didn't do skill balance, I simply focused on items. It seemed that PureRage was doing a great job of working with the community to rebalance the skills, so I trusted his assessments. I still do.

I am not sure that splash + original damage values would = power house character though. The build is what it is - something of a novelty for people with lots of gear to play with. I personally have no problem having builds like that in the game. Keeps people like Brevan entertained and I thoroughly enjoy having Brevan (and people like him) in the community

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:38 pm 
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the damage was halved because the "Struck" target is hit twice, once with the weapon and once by the splash. that = of what it was before. It was reduced but it was then buffed again by 40-50%. Act 2 mercs veng seems pretty rocking with a good weapon. Have you maxed the veng synergys that give 1% passive pierce per point?

Also, just to point out, relays barb was only doing around 13k 2 handed IIRC. Plus he had no way of lowering resists.

Later you might want to consider using a Phoenix shield and puting stone runeword armor on for trash clearing. The firestorm and the synergy from the moultne boulder charges is very nice. Add to that 20% passive pierce on veng from maxed holy fire + 10% passive pierce from maxed convic + the added skill pierce from convic, you will shread stuff pretty fast. I prefer to use veng as a way to gather extra pierce and stuff with elemental procs :). (wonder ftw)

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:55 pm
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Heh well if the damage was returned to original.. the build would be decent.. well enough to kill trash for sure. Not saying it would be 'powerhouse' It would be worth playing at least though.. because currently it's on the verge of aura bitch/useless. I'll talk to PureRage though since you did not fix the skills at all. I understand your point though Blue, hopefully the damage is returned to original or otherwise.. just a waste of a build.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:56 pm 
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I played one through to guardian untwinked last season and he was garbage too, didnt work against anything and i stopped even using veng by the end of NM. The damage is the same, it was just given a small aoe to maybe make it more appealing. Like any melee build, it is very item dependant. Try with some elemental proc gear, elemental set obviously for the added flat ele damage, etc. etc.

No matter what you do to it, the damage will never be great due to the terrible speed on it. There was a discussion a while ago about increasing veng speed to 5fpa or whatever it was but it was shot down pretty fast, mostly by people who haven't actually played them. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:58 pm 
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I built one last season and took him to lvl97. Was a fun character, but "fun" like being a healer - you really just support the people in your team. I either made sorc's dominate or I made my lightning merc dominate. With my merc though, I could solo most anywhere since there was very little that got in our way. Most of the light immunes I could mop up on my own and the merc just crushed everything else.

I used to use the paladin to clear down to Hell Nihla as he did it very effectively either by using reanimate on kill items on the merc or with my 1pt in conversion to convert a few tanks. Then it was just sit back and watch the fireworks. He could run most areas like that, but it isn't a very "hands on" type character - ended up feeling more like I was playing a summon necro.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:32 pm 

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blah made a long post and lost it. replying back tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:56 pm 
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My bowler is doing around 3k boulder and 11k geddon and is doing well enough at 81. I'd say that people have gotten way to spoiled by powerhouse builds, and hacking...


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:21 am
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Everybody agreed that this is underpowered buid, so why not just increase splash damage to improve only this build and not affecting anything else? At least it could be fun to see something else than poison necro and poison amazon


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:18 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:54 am
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I dunno the logic - I didn't do skill balance, I simply focused on items. It seemed that PureRage was doing a great job of working with the community to rebalance the skills, so I trusted his assessments. I still do.

I am not sure that splash + original damage values would = power house character though. The build is what it is - something of a novelty for people with lots of gear to play with. I personally have no problem having builds like that in the game. Keeps people like Brevan entertained and I thoroughly enjoy having Brevan (and people like him) in the community


Woot like me. Castadin (Proc based Zealer+Conviction)

I have more fun building characters that will never make it through hell or even half of it than viable builds lol.

My Next venture of fun is a sanctuary paladin with heaven's will as endgame. the lvl 40 FoH does like 3k dmg lol.

On The Topic:
Avenger's Suck. NM character at most.Agreed that it does feel like a summon necro with a wolf. +1 splash damage increase, but it won't help much at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:30 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:21 am
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Anyone have experience with a high lvl venger this season? Since my zealdin has 1 point in vengeance and it kills phys immune trash pretty well, Im considering making one. Not interested in ctc/convic paladins btw


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 Post subject: Re: Venger paladin feedback
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:20 am 
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I can pretty well guarantee it will be a mediocre character based on playing one to lvl97 last season and knowing the changes this season.

It is fun though, just not some romp and destroy everything in sight character.

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