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 Post subject: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:58 am 
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After starting a bone nec a couple of days ago to play through and help rebuild our barb (who died), I have some feedback on the build.

It seems to start extremely strong and just keep getting better. At normal diablo he was sporting a mighty 16k bone spear, by the time he hit normal baal he was putting out a whopping 6.3k teeth and 19k bone spear. 60+MDR/PDR and max res in norm, NM and around 60 all res in hell with the same gear. The only gear upgrade since act 4 norm is gloomstrap belt.

The damage you get by the end of normal seems to be the damage you should be getting around the end of NM. The only way to solve that would be to add CE as a synergy and reduce the current synergies. removing 5% from the current synergies and adding 15% per point in CE would stretch the damage out abit more.

The sheer speed the build kills at currently in normal and early nightmare is just too much (wasn't someone saying they needed a buff???). It only took us 2 propper sittings to hit hell from level 1 due to this, I would recomend any future updates to make it an 80 point build and possibly the poison tree too. 5% from each synergy on the bone and the poison build tree and add a 15% synergy to both tree's from corpse explosion. (even bone armor for the bone mancer instead of CE).

Like I say, the damage seems to be about right for the end of nightmare, ut way too much for the end of normal.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:28 am 
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The general feedback that I heard for this build was that it was very powerful early game, rather powerful mid game, and then tapered off and started to get weak towards the end game. I utilized that in item adjustments by only boosting end game bone items.

The only problem I see with adding additional synergies is that it reduces a necro's ability to have summons to support the caster. Is it possible to instead decrease the damage tables so that the dmg ramps up slower?

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:23 pm 
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My question is, how heavily twinked is your test subject. I don't remember hitting near that untwinked, or partially so.

I do agree that early it is very strong, middle pretty good, later (early to mid hell) somewhat blah...very late...never got there.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Is there the possibility to add the % synergy per 4 hardpoints?, this way, early on normal will be weaker, but same dmglater on game.


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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:16 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
My question is, how heavily twinked is your test subject. I don't remember hitting near that untwinked, or partially so.

I do agree that early it is very strong, middle pretty good, later (early to mid hell) somewhat blah...very late...never got there.

not very twinked, i was using hsarus belt until the end of the NM baal quest, +2 pnb ammy with crap mods, 1 good necro ring and one garbage one i found on him. heavenly garb (with a 15 all res jewel that I found on him in a4 nm.) +3 pnb circlet that I rolled first time with 4 p diamonds (that he found) caster boots, and mage fists. All of that, he found himself. a white wand and rhyme shield (previously spirit shield). the highest req on any of it was garb until he was level 86 and i got gloomstrap.

The only thing he didnt get himself was the Io rune and the shield I made spirit in. (only my second char)

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:20 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
The only problem I see with adding additional synergies is that it reduces a necro's ability to have summons to support the caster. Is it possible to instead decrease the damage tables so that the dmg ramps up slower?


honestly, 1 pointed summons are performing amazingly at the min. They only need to last a volley or 2 of teeth before the screen is dead. The damage tables could be adjusted though yeh. I'm struggling to spend points at the min (they are spread out all over the place), I dont think I would miss 20 points on this build. maybe some folks would though idk

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:19 pm 

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sounds like a good candidate for a "normal rusher" :o


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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:05 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
kramuti wrote:
My question is, how heavily twinked is your test subject. I don't remember hitting near that untwinked, or partially so.

I do agree that early it is very strong, middle pretty good, later (early to mid hell) somewhat blah...very late...never got there.

not very twinked, i was using hsarus belt until the end of the NM baal quest, +2 pnb ammy with crap mods, 1 good necro ring and one garbage one i found on him. heavenly garb (with a 15 all res jewel that I found on him in a4 nm.) +3 pnb circlet that I rolled first time with 4 p diamonds (that he found) caster boots, and mage fists. All of that, he found himself. a white wand and rhyme shield (previously spirit shield). the highest req on any of it was garb until he was level 86 and i got gloomstrap.

The only thing he didnt get himself was the Io rune and the shield I made spirit in. (only my second char)


Fair enough. From my recollection, at late nm early hell (only got to hell duriel) I had +3spear,spirit white, kiras, mara's, wyrmscale, 2nec rings, +2 rare nec shield with 50ish res all (then 4 socketed with gems for absorbs), disciple boots and belt, and magefist. I wasn't hitting much more than you quoted earlier. So for the cost, you don't get a lot more returns a bit later imo. Again, not sure about the really high end.

Early game, the bone nec is probably a bit strong any way you cut it. I think dealing with the base damage is the way to go if the build does get nerfed. Adding more synergies, or changing synergies is not, imo. You already have to make a choice on what summon (golem mastery+1golem skeles/DK+mastery, blades +something), go CE+max a curse, etc. Making it an 80 point build really starts to limit the variability in the build.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:30 pm 
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I told you guys in June to make the bone necro and psn necro's 80 point builds... And you guys said I was wrong..... Quess what I'm not wrong... A 80 point build bone necro still has many summons for a meat shield.. And besides what does it matter anyways summons suck when the real fight is on ( Diablo Baal Sammy Los)..... You reap what you soe... Now deal with it..

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
I told you guys in June to make the bone necro and psn necro's 80 point builds... And you guys said I was wrong.....

And you are still wrong. Nothing has changed.

As Kramuti and I have both explained moving it to an 80pt build really limits the variability and the fun of playing the character. It is fine for sorcs to be 80pt builds as they really don't have anything better to do with the points, but for a necro there is a lot that can be done with those points and I for one would hate to see that become gimped by forcing character to put 80 in to a magic skill.

I would much rather see the damage tables adjusted. I thought that then and I still think that now.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:43 pm 
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also soth, you wanted to add another synergy to offset the skiller reduction. not spread the synergys over another skill. gtfo my thread please, I'd trust my mothers grasp of this game over yours after all your bullshit "I tested 80 point necro builds, but I didn't make any txt file changes to ACTUALLY test it". retard ftw.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Anything else .. Kev let me make this straight with you .. I modded D2 and messed with it way back in 02 and 03 I don't need to send you anything .. Reason being this is Terrys mod and I respect that I just give my idea and the ideas I tested.. Not sit and jerk off over man how big can build my ego today ..Point is I don't care about all the file's and shit no more I havn't for like 6 years ..Reason I moved on to modding much bigger games such as Kotor1 Kotor2/ Elder Scrolls 3 and 4/ The Witcher/ Dragon age/.. So think about it man D2 is a weak horse its 2011 get with the times..

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:30 pm 
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so please enlighten me how you tested 80 point builds without any text file editing. Don't talk bull shit, you have no idea how to mod in any way shape or form. If you did you wouldn't e complaining aout a couple of runewords not working... I can't follow you man, one min you are saying you don't wanna argue anymore then you urst in a month later and start foaming at the mouth. Get a grip man and take your meds, shit.

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So think about it man D2 is a weak horse its 2011 get with the times..

I still play ff7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1. Old games are fun. If you don't like it then stop playing and fuck off back to starwars.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
Anything else .. Kev let me make this straight with you .. I modded D2 and messed with it way back in 02 and 03 I don't need to send you anything .. Reason being this is Terrys mod and I respect that I just give my idea and the ideas I tested.. Not sit and jerk off over man how big can build my ego today ..Point is I don't care about all the file's and shit no more I havn't for like 6 years ..Reason I moved on to modding much bigger games such as Kotor1 Kotor2/ Elder Scrolls 3 and 4/ The Witcher/ Dragon age/.. So think about it man D2 is a weak horse its 2011 get with the times..


I generally don't step in the middle of people's arguments to fuel the fire but...it is fine if you think it is better suited for an 80pt build. Discuss it. Don't just come prancing in in your pink tutu saying how beautifully right you are about the subject, and that everyone else is wrong simply because you are right. All it starts is this kind of shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:21 pm 
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but thats kinda what he does, all the time.
im glad other ppl said 80 pt builds are terrible since they would be the worse thing to happen to the necro. with curses already requiring investment to be good they dont have points to spare.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:12 am 
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ok, the damage in hell seems about right, the issue is the damage thats ok for hell is available for normal baal. changing the white runeword to "Dol Ohm" would help and maybe adding a low level runeword similar to the poison and summoner one:
"Amn Tir" in wands
+1 pnb skills
+1-2 teeth
20% fcr
10 energy
(+ rune bonuses)

Also, IIRC there was a discussion on bone spirit being useless, it is really bad compared to spear. I've never even bothered to use it since it has half the damage and moves at half the speed of my spears. I would say increase the speed of bone spirit and possibly buff the tier 4 and 5 damage by 10% The mana cost warrants it. Also perhaps adjust the synergys by moving them around. Instead of spear getting 25% from teeth and spirit, reduce the synergy from teeth to 15% and increase the synergy with spirit to 35%. That should keep the damage down at a more reasonable level in late act 3 and act 4.

I can't really see another way to spread it out. Adjusting the damage tiers won't help after thinking about it since you can get level 40+ bone spear at level 45.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:13 am 
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re-adjusting the synergies was something I was in favor of several years ago. I never understood why the single target skill (spirit) was getting the lowest dmg boost while the multi-target spells were getting the largest impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Bone Necro Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:31 am 
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well, teeth seems fine since its garbage on bosses. spear should be about 50% stronger (so Id have aout 11k spear with current setup) and spirit should do double spears damage at the same level.

Those are the base line numbers I was mulling over. I'm testing it offline currently with the same skill levels I have on the realm. Ill have to see how my realm necro does as we progress. Our 4th has een missing in action for 4 or 5 days so weve been moving slower than expected, a couple of soulshards and a night farming in act 3 should be another 3-4k boost.

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